Oct. 30, 2020

Ability


Jack Wain and I discuss what "ability" means within the 5e context. We take a look at what makes an effective player and how those skills are transferable to being a successful DM. We discuss ability skills and how some, such as the oft derided Animal Handling, get a bad rap through no fault of their own. This episode's Big Question is ability modifiers: big box or small box?

  • 00:01:41 - How to determine player ability
  • 00:08:58 - Signifiers of a good DM
  • 00:20:40 - Ability scores
  • 00:40:59 - Dissonance between player and character ability
  • 00:50:36 - Improvisation in published adventures
  • 00:55:26 - Impact of score simplification over earlier editions
  • 01:00:30 - Big box or little box?

Intro Music: 'Local Forecast' by Kevin MacLeod
Intermission Music: 'Chill' by Kevin MacLeod
Outro Music: 'Local Forecast - Elevator' by Kevin MacLeod
Reference to The Monsters Know What They're Doing by Keith Ammann.

Transcript

1
00:00:12,890 --> 00:00:16,659
[Music]

2
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,800
hello and welcome to another episode of

3
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,039
thinking critically a D&D discussion my

4
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:28,240
name is danilo and the topic for today

5
00:00:25,039 --> 00:00:30,640
is ability this time we have jack wayne

6
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,640
the incorrigible calor eiduran from my

7
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,559
own campaign and a man with plenty of

8
00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:37,600
experience in both tabletop and digital

9
00:00:34,559 --> 00:00:39,360
rpgs jack thanks again for coming on can

10
00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,399
you tell us a bit about yourself

11
00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:45,520
sure so i guess from a D&D perspective i

12
00:00:42,399 --> 00:00:47,440
started playing 5e as the the first

13
00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,120
edition i've ever played

14
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,399
probably four years ago now and i've

15
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,600
been playing it

16
00:00:50,399 --> 00:00:55,360
off and on since then until uh

17
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,079
it was a year and a half ago and we

18
00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,199
started our um the joint campaign which

19
00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:00,879
danilo

20
00:00:59,199 --> 00:01:02,559
dms and i play in

21
00:01:00,879 --> 00:01:04,799
all right thank you

22
00:01:02,559 --> 00:01:07,520
so we're gonna dive in

23
00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:08,560
jack what does the word ability mean to

24
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,240
you

25
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,840
sure okay so um i don't think about this

26
00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,479
and i kind of it kind of split down the

27
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,400
middle of of um

28
00:01:16,479 --> 00:01:19,520
of what ability means so the first side

29
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,600
is

30
00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,680
ability scores so

31
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,400
charisma strength etc and then the

32
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,640
second side is player ability i.e

33
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,439
new players experienced players players

34
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,759
as dms i think that's a nice half and

35
00:01:31,439 --> 00:01:35,520
half of what ability is so i guess which

36
00:01:33,759 --> 00:01:38,079
one do you want to go through first so

37
00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,520
let's start with player ability then

38
00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:41,680
in your opinion then what what do you

39
00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,680
think makes a good player we're firing

40
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,360
out here with like the big questions

41
00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,960
what do you think

42
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,720
to put it another way

43
00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:53,680
how would you determine player ability

44
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,720
how would i determine player ability

45
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,159
so

46
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,520
i think they're uh they're intertwined

47
00:01:56,159 --> 00:02:00,880
so um i think what makes a good player

48
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,119
is

49
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:06,320
someone who understands that

50
00:02:03,119 --> 00:02:08,399
while they are a main character in the

51
00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,080
story they are not the main character

52
00:02:08,399 --> 00:02:12,480
you know there'll be two three four

53
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,080
however many other people also

54
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,760
playing the game

55
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,760
and so it's an understanding that it's a

56
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,280
collaborative effort you're not

57
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,319
front and center all the time there's

58
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,440
that you know there's points where you

59
00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:22,800
need to be quiet where it doesn't make

60
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,080
sense for your character to talk there's

61
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,760
points where people need to take the

62
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,680
spotlight

63
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,520
so i think that's a big that's a big

64
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,560
part of it is being able to take a step

65
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,160
back i think there's a fine line there

66
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,599
between

67
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,959
i think it's a one of the steeper

68
00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:38,720
learning curves new players have

69
00:02:36,959 --> 00:02:40,319
especially is that fine line between

70
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,560
like okay

71
00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:44,560
now it's not my time let me yeah let me

72
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,920
not talk for five minutes which i think

73
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,200
is super difficult for people who have

74
00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:48,560
just come from

75
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,480
especially from video game backgrounds

76
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,519
where it's just i'm constantly in

77
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,200
control

78
00:02:51,519 --> 00:02:55,440
yeah like if you play like a like a

79
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,519
boulder's gate or a um

80
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,599
or any sort of like crpg like that

81
00:02:57,519 --> 00:03:00,800
you're constantly the one even if you're

82
00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:02,400
controlling whatever character is the

83
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,879
one that's doing all the work and making

84
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:07,040
the decisions so you have a lot less

85
00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:08,959
agency in d in that

86
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,400
people other people within the game

87
00:03:08,959 --> 00:03:12,080
players in the game can negatively

88
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,560
affect how

89
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:17,200
you enjoy the game in a way or how you

90
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,840
want things to happen and that's that's

91
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:22,959
just inherent with dnd so a key

92
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:25,040
point there is that one thing that makes

93
00:03:22,959 --> 00:03:26,959
a good player is

94
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,480
mitigating that drawback on other

95
00:03:26,959 --> 00:03:30,000
players as much as possible because i

96
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,599
think you said there that

97
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,040
you can impact the enjoyment of other

98
00:03:31,599 --> 00:03:34,400
players so i guess trying to reduce that

99
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,159
as much as possible

100
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,760
overall brings the quality of the game

101
00:03:36,159 --> 00:03:40,080
up would you say

102
00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,239
yeah definitely and so i think this is

103
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,080
something that to get slightly off topic

104
00:03:42,239 --> 00:03:46,560
this is something that i think

105
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,840
is can be really jarring for new players

106
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,720
is

107
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,959
when you first realize that

108
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,640
you you don't have complete control over

109
00:03:52,959 --> 00:03:56,879
what happens yeah you know like you

110
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,239
could be talking to an npc and trying to

111
00:03:56,879 --> 00:04:00,640
get information out of it and another

112
00:03:58,239 --> 00:04:02,239
character could be getting bored and

113
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,560
and just stand up stabbing him because

114
00:04:02,239 --> 00:04:06,159
he doesn't like where it's going

115
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,200
so i think i think

116
00:04:06,159 --> 00:04:08,799
that's

117
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,480
it's in the players to be cognizant of

118
00:04:08,799 --> 00:04:12,720
that to take into consideration that

119
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,480
yeah well maybe i could stab him

120
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,320
you know don't be a dick this you know

121
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,560
this other player is having fun

122
00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,400
interacting with him i think it's also

123
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:23,360
there's also a degree of responsibility

124
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:25,360
on the dm to kind of to um

125
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,880
take into account that

126
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,479
okay this conversation's been going on

127
00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,919
for 10 for 10 minutes and he's the only

128
00:04:28,479 --> 00:04:31,360
one talking to this player no one else

129
00:04:29,919 --> 00:04:33,199
is really doing anything maybe i should

130
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,880
kind of expedite this information that

131
00:04:33,199 --> 00:04:36,880
this character you know this npc is

132
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,120
trying to give up

133
00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,880
but yeah i think it's a balance

134
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,479
okay all right

135
00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,800
so we've basically said

136
00:04:42,479 --> 00:04:46,800
knowing when to play i guess is one way

137
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,479
to put it for in terms of

138
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,400
playing a good player

139
00:04:48,479 --> 00:04:52,880
that's one point uh so i think another

140
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,280
big one is um and i think the probably

141
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,360
the most challenging one is being able

142
00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:59,919
to play a character because i think it's

143
00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,840
quite uni it's unique to

144
00:04:59,919 --> 00:05:04,800
not just not just d but role-playing

145
00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:07,759
games that you're not playing yourself

146
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,520
you're you know you're playing a another

147
00:05:07,759 --> 00:05:11,120
person who has different goals or

148
00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,560
different alignment than you has

149
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,199
different priorities

150
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:17,520
so i think being able to

151
00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:19,680
really kind of get in their head and

152
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,880
think that okay well like well jack

153
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,240
would do this

154
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,639
there's no way in hell caleb would do

155
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,400
that so i think that's that once you get

156
00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:28,080
to that point i think that's the real

157
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,400
stepping stone to be of being a really

158
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,800
good player i think a lot of

159
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,600
recommendations or at least certainly a

160
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,600
pattern for for new players is to

161
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,479
make a caricature of themselves i know

162
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,160
mine

163
00:05:38,479 --> 00:05:42,639
first guy was

164
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,560
yeah maximilian de la rouge a rogue

165
00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:46,720
deliberate play on words

166
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,560
um but do you think that's a good idea

167
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,160
or a detriment then to help bridge that

168
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,000
gap is it keeping people too much in

169
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,919
their comfort zones and then it might

170
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,919
color their next character who's just

171
00:05:53,919 --> 00:05:57,840
one step removed whereas if they just

172
00:05:55,919 --> 00:05:59,039
dive in the deep end and play some

173
00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:01,440
tiefling

174
00:05:59,039 --> 00:06:03,440
warlock or fighter that's had 50 years

175
00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,400
experience in the gladiatorial ring

176
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:08,080
which most regular people don't have do

177
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,560
you reckon that maybe a deep end thing

178
00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,960
is is maybe a different way to approach

179
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,120
it i think there's a middle ground in

180
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,039
that if i was dming i'd actively

181
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,280
discourage a new player from basically

182
00:06:17,039 --> 00:06:20,960
creating themselves in the game because

183
00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:22,479
that's part of what you know at least

184
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,160
for me the big enjoyment a big enjoyment

185
00:06:22,479 --> 00:06:25,520
of dnd is being able to pretend like

186
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,080
you're someone else and have fun with

187
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,639
that yeah but i think it can also go too

188
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:33,759
far as a new player if you decide to

189
00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:36,160
make the most bizarre counter you

190
00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:37,520
character ever then that

191
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,039
can that can turn you off quickly

192
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,039
because it's hard work to play someone

193
00:06:39,039 --> 00:06:42,720
who's nothing like you yeah so maybe

194
00:06:41,039 --> 00:06:43,759
there's a maybe there's a middle ground

195
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,479
of

196
00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:48,800
you can take some attributes like if you

197
00:06:46,479 --> 00:06:50,319
as a person are quite lucky or witty you

198
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,639
could incorporate that into a character

199
00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:54,720
but maybe have it sit

200
00:06:52,639 --> 00:06:56,880
the character be that vehicle

201
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,919
who is maybe like more evil

202
00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,440
because

203
00:06:57,919 --> 00:07:02,080
you know you don't you can't really be

204
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,880
evil in real life so maybe now is a good

205
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,360
uh

206
00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,560
a good chance to to play someone who

207
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,759
would be evil

208
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:12,080
talking of then where would you say

209
00:07:09,759 --> 00:07:14,000
picture a venn diagram you're

210
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,160
in one side of things and calor is on

211
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,080
the other side of things how much of

212
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,759
those two circles overlapping

213
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,479
okay so

214
00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:23,759
i think carlo and i are both quite um

215
00:07:22,479 --> 00:07:24,479
sarcastic

216
00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:25,840
yeah

217
00:07:24,479 --> 00:07:26,880
so i think there's there's a lot of

218
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,880
character

219
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,440
similarities in that i like to think

220
00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,639
we're both fairly fairly intelligent you

221
00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,960
know not

222
00:07:32,639 --> 00:07:36,800
massive level iq but

223
00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,919
able to work out a plan and reason with

224
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,280
it yeah

225
00:07:37,919 --> 00:07:40,880
and i think

226
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,199
there's quite a like there's a there's a

227
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,800
lady aspect to calor especially when

228
00:07:43,199 --> 00:07:46,400
he's uh interacting with another

229
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,599
character called reuther

230
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,680
who um

231
00:07:47,599 --> 00:07:51,280
mirrors the relationship that myself and

232
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,080
the player have in real life so i think

233
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,440
there are similarities the differences

234
00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,280
are i think

235
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,199
canola kind of takes

236
00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,440
the like my idea of humor of you know a

237
00:07:59,199 --> 00:08:04,879
bit sarcastic a bit uh a bit belittling

238
00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:06,639
kind of dials it up to 11 yeah in the

239
00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:09,120
you know you can be actively belittling

240
00:08:06,639 --> 00:08:11,680
or you know actively detrimental

241
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,680
and actively rude which you know i i

242
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,919
don't think i'm rude i think i

243
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,080
tried quite hard to um to be polite

244
00:08:15,919 --> 00:08:19,680
which is one of the reasons why i wanted

245
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,919
to you know i made cattle like it is

246
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,280
because it was a uh

247
00:08:21,919 --> 00:08:24,560
it's a fun opportunity it's an

248
00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,080
exaggeration

249
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,840
yeah basically kind of like be a bit of

250
00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,759
an [ __ ] and then obviously there's

251
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,599
the alignment of like

252
00:08:29,759 --> 00:08:33,760
colors pretty evil and can be pretty

253
00:08:31,599 --> 00:08:35,680
evil at times whereas i you know in real

254
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,279
life i'd never um you'd like to think

255
00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:38,320
you're a good person

256
00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:40,560
yeah

257
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,479
okay well maybe not even not not maybe

258
00:08:40,560 --> 00:08:44,080
not good neutral maybe but definitely

259
00:08:42,479 --> 00:08:46,080
not evil

260
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,920
all right okay well then let's round

261
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,040
this off then with

262
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,519
would you

263
00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:53,040
consider yourself a good player

264
00:08:51,519 --> 00:08:56,480
big question i would

265
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,480
i would consider myself

266
00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,519
a good player but not a great player ah

267
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,959
that's nice well more modest and calor

268
00:09:01,519 --> 00:09:05,839
so they get they go there's a difference

269
00:09:02,959 --> 00:09:07,360
there already so okay

270
00:09:05,839 --> 00:09:10,000
uh one thing you mentioned earlier on

271
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,720
was the onus is well at least partially

272
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:16,640
some of the onus is on the dm to

273
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:18,320
guide that player experience and i guess

274
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,839
in a way

275
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,120
chaperone

276
00:09:19,839 --> 00:09:23,519
player

277
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,120
experience and by that i mean i you know

278
00:09:23,519 --> 00:09:27,600
guide them on to becoming a better

279
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,880
player themselves which you could do

280
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,640
subtly and

281
00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,360
and more overtly

282
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:36,320
so yeah so talking of a dm the the

283
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,519
ability of a dm and what makes a good dm

284
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,240
i guess we've answered the question

285
00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:42,000
before we've asked it in that

286
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,040
helping players become better players

287
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,720
would would be a signifier of a good dm

288
00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,720
i think that's a signifier i don't think

289
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,519
it's the only one but i think yeah

290
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,120
especially for this is this isn't really

291
00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:54,800
applicable for if you're dming a

292
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,560
campaign full of experienced players you

293
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,480
know people are really good and already

294
00:09:56,560 --> 00:10:00,240
have you know know the ropes of d but i

295
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,560
think definitely if um

296
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,440
if you're dming for new players

297
00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:05,440
then

298
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:08,320
yeah one of your goals as a dm should be

299
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,480
to kind of educate them and to kind of

300
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,000
coach them to nurture them in a way that

301
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,040
you wouldn't do for experienced players

302
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,880
maybe like

303
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,920
pull your punches a bit more

304
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:20,240
kind of explain things a bit more

305
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:22,240
because it is it is quite a

306
00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,640
unique experience

307
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,240
playing role-playing games you know

308
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,680
unlike anything else yeah there is

309
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,360
definitely a learning curve and i think

310
00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:31,519
dnd does have quite a large learning

311
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,120
curve within just the mechanics of the

312
00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:34,560
game so i think if you can get if you

313
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,640
can help out on the role-playing side

314
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:38,720
that makes everyone's lives a bit easier

315
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,959
well i think that's a good a good bridge

316
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,839
between the two topics then um in terms

317
00:10:40,959 --> 00:10:44,160
of

318
00:10:41,839 --> 00:10:47,040
usa and guiding and helping and maybe

319
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:49,519
being a bit more um forgiving

320
00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,959
as a dm to newer players

321
00:10:49,519 --> 00:10:52,399
where

322
00:10:50,959 --> 00:10:55,519
and now i'm going to let my own personal

323
00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:57,600
biases slide in here but where is the

324
00:10:55,519 --> 00:10:59,839
where's the line in the sand when should

325
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,079
when should that stop so when should

326
00:10:59,839 --> 00:11:03,600
basically player ability come up to a

327
00:11:02,079 --> 00:11:05,680
level where that isn't required anymore

328
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,600
or how how long should that take is

329
00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:09,040
maybe a better question

330
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,920
how long before the training wheels come

331
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,440
off yeah basically or or how long until

332
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,560
the dm should expect the training wheels

333
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:19,200
to come off oh okay um

334
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:22,000
i think it depends uh playable player

335
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:24,959
and pie by party but i would say

336
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,600
after maybe uh

337
00:11:24,959 --> 00:11:29,920
10-15 sessions

338
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,120
because by then you've kind of

339
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,959
been able

340
00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,560
depending on the campaign

341
00:11:32,959 --> 00:11:37,120
you'll likely have been able to capture

342
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:39,120
like a microcosm of what the whole dnd

343
00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,680
experience is about so you know you've

344
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,800
been in our town talking to npcs you've

345
00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:44,959
been you know you've gone on an

346
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,320
expedition to kill the bad guy

347
00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:48,079
you know you you've had to charm your

348
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,320
way through situations you know you've

349
00:11:48,079 --> 00:11:51,760
got quite a broad array

350
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,480
i think once you've kind of got past

351
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,279
that point then it then it can start

352
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,959
the training could come off that's um so

353
00:11:57,279 --> 00:12:00,959
that works for

354
00:11:58,959 --> 00:12:03,839
a campaign such as ours or or you know

355
00:12:00,959 --> 00:12:06,480
longer term campaigns but that might be

356
00:12:03,839 --> 00:12:08,320
i guess a potential pitfall then for

357
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,240
kind of one shots and other new starters

358
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,680
where new players might only play one

359
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,920
session of a you know let's do this

360
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:15,920
thing from a birthday or whatever and

361
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,279
then never play it again or not play it

362
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,480
again for a few months and they've only

363
00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:20,160
had that one

364
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,480
snapshot so

365
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,440
the good dm in that instance then would

366
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,680
at least

367
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,440
attempt to try and condense that

368
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,040
learning curve

369
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,760
as best as possible

370
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,680
yeah i think for for one shot especially

371
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,320
for new players a certain amount of like

372
00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:38,959
uh rule fudging or uh you know

373
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,240
overlooking or you know uh backpedaling

374
00:12:38,959 --> 00:12:43,360
is is

375
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,200
sufficient is encouraged to um to kind

376
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,399
of smooth out the curve because at the

377
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,560
end of the day if you're playing a one

378
00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,560
shot and you're playing it for for three

379
00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:52,160
four hours you want to try and get as

380
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:53,760
much entertainment into that time as

381
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,240
possible you don't want to spend like

382
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,079
the first hour explaining

383
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,800
you know what ac is

384
00:12:58,079 --> 00:13:04,079
yeah sure uh one of the more

385
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:06,800
particular concepts as well ac um yeah

386
00:13:04,079 --> 00:13:09,440
it's always said that the dm's role or

387
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,079
number one responsibility is to ensure

388
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,839
everyone's having fun at the table

389
00:13:12,079 --> 00:13:15,680
including themselves so firstly do you

390
00:13:13,839 --> 00:13:17,519
agree with that statement

391
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:19,680
yeah absolutely because

392
00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:22,399
when you cut everything specific out of

393
00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:24,639
dnd that the main reason why we play is

394
00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:26,560
to have fun like if we're not having fun

395
00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:28,399
then if i wasn't having fun i wouldn't

396
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:30,639
play and i assume that's the case for

397
00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:32,800
most other people so yeah definitely i

398
00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:32,800
think

399
00:13:32,959 --> 00:13:38,079
having fun is the is the priority and

400
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,079
should be the priority above all else

401
00:13:38,079 --> 00:13:42,000
in that case then given what the

402
00:13:40,079 --> 00:13:45,279
statement you've literally just said

403
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,199
what can be sacrificed if fun is the

404
00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:50,560
priority above everything else

405
00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:52,880
so what i'm getting at here is what can

406
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:54,800
a good dm sacrifice to ensure that

407
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,480
everyone has fun and so by that i mean

408
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,279
stuff like

409
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,199
fudging dice rolls or

410
00:13:59,279 --> 00:14:02,880
keeping enemies alive until there's a

411
00:14:01,199 --> 00:14:05,120
cinematic killing blow with a high

412
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,120
payoff that kind of stuff again where's

413
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,560
the line drawn there do you think

414
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,160
yeah so um

415
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,839
and again it depends on the nature of

416
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,320
the campaign but

417
00:14:11,839 --> 00:14:15,680
i think fudging dice rolls

418
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,959
is

419
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:20,320
more than okay for a dm to do in fact if

420
00:14:18,959 --> 00:14:22,160
it if the

421
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,720
if the campaign is kind of a narrative

422
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,440
based campaign like ours is then i think

423
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,959
it

424
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,959
it really serves the narrative and

425
00:14:26,959 --> 00:14:30,880
serves the fun to do so

426
00:14:28,959 --> 00:14:32,720
as an aside if if you're playing you

427
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,480
know like a death matches game or a game

428
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,720
that's entirely focused on like dungeon

429
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,519
delving with very little rp then that's

430
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,920
a no i'd say that in those situations

431
00:14:39,519 --> 00:14:43,680
okay fudging dice isn't appropriate but

432
00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,600
that's just the nature of the

433
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,240
of the at which campaign you play sure

434
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,560
but yeah so i think fudging dice is fine

435
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,440
giving players like a hero moment by you

436
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,760
know

437
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,639
artificially cutting or increasing enemy

438
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,880
health

439
00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:59,760
maybe like allowing a bit more leniency

440
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:02,480
with uh like an npc like if

441
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,480
you were to consider an interaction

442
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,560
objectively this nbc would have you know

443
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,560
sworn at this player and walked off yeah

444
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,120
you know minutes ago but maybe you just

445
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,199
kind of like you let it

446
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,519
let them keep going a bit longer to kind

447
00:15:13,199 --> 00:15:16,399
of draw out for that yeah

448
00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:20,880
okay

449
00:15:16,399 --> 00:15:23,519
i am a fan of having a narrative as the

450
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:26,560
skeleton the foundation of

451
00:15:23,519 --> 00:15:28,560
a larger campaign to enable combat and

452
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,199
to enable social interactions and that

453
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,160
kind of stuff so in that regard yeah i

454
00:15:31,199 --> 00:15:33,360
think

455
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,839
having the

456
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,320
insight and wherewithal to

457
00:15:35,839 --> 00:15:40,079
know when is appropriate to fudge dice

458
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,600
rolls but i think from a from a dm's

459
00:15:40,079 --> 00:15:43,279
perspective

460
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,519
this is the other side of the coin for a

461
00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:48,000
player learning when's

462
00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:51,120
when is their time to not play for a dm

463
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:54,079
it's when's an appropriate time to not

464
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,759
fudge dice is is a similar kind of

465
00:15:54,079 --> 00:15:57,600
learning curve there

466
00:15:55,759 --> 00:16:00,079
when you that's interesting yeah when

467
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,240
you first start it's like well

468
00:16:00,079 --> 00:16:04,560
the temptation is there to say dice

469
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,240
don't matter to me anymore i can i can

470
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,199
roll whatever i want

471
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:12,160
unlimited power um but obviously then

472
00:16:09,199 --> 00:16:14,880
that detracts quite heavily from i

473
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,800
suppose the purity it's a fine line and

474
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,680
there's a balance i think and one that i

475
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:22,240
don't think i have quite myself

476
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,839
there yet um and in some respects i

477
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,639
think it would be

478
00:16:23,839 --> 00:16:28,560
there'd be a lot less weight on a dm's

479
00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:30,160
shoulders to just say i'm never gonna

480
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,839
fudge dice and then i don't even have to

481
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,920
think about that anymore it's just

482
00:16:31,839 --> 00:16:36,560
it's completely out of my hands

483
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,639
i think that players can tell

484
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,279
when you start fudging when not you

485
00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:43,199
specifically but just the royal you the

486
00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,839
fudge dice too much and it kind of ruins

487
00:16:43,199 --> 00:16:47,199
the various military a bit if

488
00:16:45,839 --> 00:16:49,040
because it gets the feeling that it

489
00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:51,279
doesn't matter really how

490
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,199
well we do the dm's basically going to

491
00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:55,519
rewrite it behind the screen yeah so i

492
00:16:53,199 --> 00:16:57,199
think the best dice fudging comes when

493
00:16:55,519 --> 00:16:58,959
your players actually

494
00:16:57,199 --> 00:17:01,279
are completely oblivious to it and it

495
00:16:58,959 --> 00:17:02,560
should be kept in the dark about that

496
00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:03,839
there's a saying somewhere that's like

497
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,600
when you when you do it so good they

498
00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:08,400
won't even know you're there yeah i

499
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,919
suppose is the best example of that in

500
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,600
that instance yeah

501
00:17:09,919 --> 00:17:12,640
and i think it's completely within your

502
00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,959
uh

503
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,079
your prerogative to not fudge dice at

504
00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:18,319
all

505
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,600
and let the the scenario play out as it

506
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,839
is and sometimes that leads to some

507
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,839
really good moments

508
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:26,400
i just think the the the other side the

509
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:27,919
other side of that is that

510
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,520
especially at lower levels you can get

511
00:17:27,919 --> 00:17:30,840
very unlucky and if

512
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,840
you know

513
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:36,000
a you know an npc or an enemy sneaks in

514
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,360
a couple of crits against um

515
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,360
against the character they can easily

516
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,360
die and at low level there's not an easy

517
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,880
way to resurrect them you know but

518
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:46,160
potentially that can be his own sub

519
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,919
story in itself to resurrect them but

520
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,840
yeah it's a fine line

521
00:17:47,919 --> 00:17:51,200
i think one thing that

522
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,280
the books

523
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,679
and guidance doesn't do particularly

524
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:58,480
well uh it might do in say if you're

525
00:17:55,679 --> 00:17:59,679
playing lost minds or something but

526
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,440
i don't think it does particularly well

527
00:17:59,679 --> 00:18:02,799
as for new players

528
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,160
you know the tendency is to start at

529
00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:05,520
level one especially if it's a group of

530
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,080
say five people that have never played

531
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,760
before let's all just start level one

532
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,919
you know one poor bastard gets to be the

533
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,600
dm um yeah

534
00:18:11,919 --> 00:18:15,520
and if they're just playing you know

535
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,720
rules as written

536
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:21,679
then that is you know a chance at tpk is

537
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,559
is way higher than basically any other

538
00:18:21,679 --> 00:18:25,120
level

539
00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:25,919
you know the wizard gets an unlucky hit

540
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,720
from

541
00:18:25,919 --> 00:18:30,160
one creature well yeah this game over

542
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,400
and then the back line falls over and

543
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,760
then the game falls over so

544
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,520
i guess yeah

545
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,200
to be a good dm in that instance then

546
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,039
you you try and see that coming but it's

547
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,320
very difficult for new players

548
00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:42,320
and as i said i don't think it's

549
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,000
communicated particularly well in the

550
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,640
books

551
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:49,360
well you know um and i think before i

552
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,679
recall when i read the start start of

553
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:54,400
lost minds the first combat account is

554
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:57,120
actually fairly difficult

555
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,440
some goblin arches and

556
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,400
melee boys so that can go sideways

557
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,559
quickly

558
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,520
but um i think

559
00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:07,039
with a bit of creativity you can kind of

560
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,440
outside of uh

561
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:12,720
dice fudging you can kind of finesse

562
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,480
a tpk away maybe that you know the

563
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,840
the goblins they knock you unconscious

564
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,280
instead of killing you and then you know

565
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,200
you've got to try and escape the cave

566
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,840
that they take you to or

567
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,200
the the archers run away

568
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,160
you know

569
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,160
from the fight due to cowardice

570
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:31,760
yeah there's a there's a really popular

571
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:33,600
blog and associated books that called

572
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,679
the monsters know what they're doing

573
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,799
which is mathematical approach at

574
00:19:35,679 --> 00:19:39,120
looking at the stat blocks of a

575
00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:40,799
particular creature and then deriving

576
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,960
from that what they would do in certain

577
00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:44,240
situations i would forget the name the

578
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,000
author of the top of my head but the

579
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,679
credit will be in the description but

580
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,640
long story short as he says you know

581
00:19:47,679 --> 00:19:50,240
creatures with less than seven

582
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,520
intelligence would fight until they're

583
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:55,039
at 25 hp creatures with less less than

584
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,640
you know four intelligence would fight

585
00:19:55,039 --> 00:19:58,080
until they're dead

586
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,520
creatures with you know intelligence of

587
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,640
15 would

588
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,159
you know they would try and talk their

589
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,520
way out of it first and that kind of

590
00:20:02,159 --> 00:20:05,440
stuff but

591
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,600
i found some of that to be quite almost

592
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,600
too arithmetic

593
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,520
based and as

594
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,200
previously mentioned being

595
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,880
narrative driven it can kind of work

596
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,960
against the narrative in some instances

597
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,200
so i think again it's it's a it's a

598
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,400
balance between this wolf isn't

599
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,559
particularly intelligent and wants to

600
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,760
protect its young but it will

601
00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:25,039
you know if the young dies it's just

602
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,760
going to run away kind of thing it won't

603
00:20:25,039 --> 00:20:27,200
just

604
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,280
fight there until it's dead which then

605
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,880
again i guess enables intelligent play

606
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,960
from the players let's kill the thing

607
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,640
it's protecting and then it will go

608
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,159
because it's got nothing to protect

609
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,080
anymore so

610
00:20:36,159 --> 00:20:41,360
we've we've done a good job there

611
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,159
marrying dm ability with playability

612
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:44,400
so

613
00:20:42,159 --> 00:20:46,960
if we move on for a second then

614
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,280
let's go to ability scores

615
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,799
sure out of all of them that are

616
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,480
available and i forget i can never

617
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:54,880
remember how many there are in that list

618
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:57,679
from athletics down to

619
00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,320
survival or whatever the last one is do

620
00:20:57,679 --> 00:21:02,480
you think there are good and bad

621
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,919
abilities

622
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,200
and i mean that in the loosest possible

623
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:08,480
way

624
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,720
let me bring up let me bring up a uh

625
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,640
do i think there are good and bad ones i

626
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,080
don't think there's anything in

627
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,360
that's my first but my first thought is

628
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,760
i don't think there's anything in here

629
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:20,240
inherently bad with any of them is maybe

630
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,240
just application

631
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:25,200
that faults at times

632
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,200
okay i think that

633
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,559
i changed my mind slightly

634
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,440
this is i'm thinking about this on the

635
00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:32,400
guy i've actually thought about this

636
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,280
before i think some

637
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,280
are

638
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,720
potentially

639
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,320
overused and some are underused

640
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,919
for example the big one being like

641
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,960
perception

642
00:21:41,919 --> 00:21:47,360
you know probably by far the most used

643
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,280
ability check yeah game

644
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,559
and then if you weigh that up against

645
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,640
something like

646
00:21:50,559 --> 00:21:55,120
animal handling

647
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:58,320
even even in a campaign where animals

648
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:59,600
are a big focus they're still you know

649
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,480
anywhere near the time you use

650
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,880
perception outside of

651
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,880
contrived situations

652
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,039
do you think there's any way to

653
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,520
bring those two closer together

654
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:13,679
i think very little about kind of

655
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,880
breaking the game a little bit and i'm

656
00:22:13,679 --> 00:22:17,600
sure when

657
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,520
5e was designed the designers understood

658
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,159
there was going to be a unbalanced use

659
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,919
of um of different checks and just

660
00:22:22,159 --> 00:22:25,600
accepted that because yeah i think by

661
00:22:23,919 --> 00:22:27,039
its nature you're going to be using more

662
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,200
than the others

663
00:22:27,039 --> 00:22:32,080
some more than others i think maybe what

664
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,400
um i think perception also gets a

665
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,640
a bad rap but is overused because it's

666
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,520
the default for basically everything

667
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,120
yeah depend dependent on dm is that some

668
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,159
dm's can you throw a perception for

669
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,400
basically

670
00:22:42,159 --> 00:22:47,600
anything when you make you know maybe

671
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,440
you can be a bit more creative with um

672
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,720
with roles maybe not use perception

673
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,960
maybe uh maybe investigation or arcana

674
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,960
or insight anything like that so to kind

675
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,679
of get away from just ruling just asking

676
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,360
for perception you know every 10 minutes

677
00:22:59,679 --> 00:23:02,880
sure so

678
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,640
i've i've read a

679
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,360
there's a tweet a few months ago that

680
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,080
basically said medicine is garbage and

681
00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:12,559
when would you ever use it because

682
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,240
the the approach they took to it was

683
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:16,640
that basically it's only used for

684
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,880
stabilizing a creature but when

685
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,880
stabilization kits uh

686
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,240
cheap as chips and do it instantly

687
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,039
without a role

688
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,880
that

689
00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:26,400
medicine is pointless

690
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,520
to which i said that

691
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:31,120
no it depends on the context but

692
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,039
a good one is

693
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,360
you you enter into a small village you

694
00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:36,960
know like a like a peasant peasant farm

695
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,480
town or whatever

696
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,919
and everyone's you know there's a play

697
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,720
going around there's a play everyone's

698
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:44,000
dying so on and so on you could use a a

699
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,919
medicine check there are a series of

700
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,600
medicine checks to work out that

701
00:23:45,919 --> 00:23:49,200
it's actually just like the cold and

702
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,360
because they're peasants they're just

703
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,799
garbage with their yeah with their you

704
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,200
know sanitation

705
00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:57,919
absolutely yeah medicine isn't just the

706
00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,240
uh you know the mechanics of

707
00:23:57,919 --> 00:24:02,400
stabilizing it's also medical expertise

708
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,480
like being able to understand what an

709
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,080
illness is what the cure is

710
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,799
so there's a lot more freedom in it than

711
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,679
just the mechanical act of stabilizing

712
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:11,760
sure

713
00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:13,919
do you think then that animal handling

714
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,039
is probably the least used just by its

715
00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:16,640
nature

716
00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:18,480
at least in my

717
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,679
experience playing the game

718
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,440
i can

719
00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:22,720
count on two fingers the amount of times

720
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,200
i think we've we've had an animal

721
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,640
handling cool in our campaign maybe a

722
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,080
bit more maybe i'm forgetting some but i

723
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,480
definitely think it is

724
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,600
very underused because i think just by

725
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,279
its

726
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,279
nature there's not

727
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:37,200
a lot of

728
00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:39,520
a lot most campaigns don't really get

729
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,960
too involved with that kind of aspect of

730
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,880
it

731
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,640
a lot of times animals you know beats

732
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,600
the bird and are just

733
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,120
used for transport or

734
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,960
yeah and a lot of the time when you come

735
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,159
across enemy

736
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,440
animals

737
00:24:52,159 --> 00:24:55,840
animal handling is kind of out of the

738
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,760
question you know

739
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,200
some rabbit wolves then

740
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,320
there's not even a really good animal

741
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,320
handling well i'm not going to do

742
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,320
anything for you and how many times are

743
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,080
you going to come across in it in a well

744
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,520
you know in a one shot let alone a

745
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,360
campaign how many times you're going to

746
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,960
come across a horse that's freaking out

747
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:13,200
a domesticated horse that's freaking out

748
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,559
yeah once maybe

749
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,039
otherwise there's a lot of horses which

750
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:18,480
are just going crazy for no reason

751
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:19,679
um yeah

752
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,679
so

753
00:25:19,679 --> 00:25:23,520
what would you say is

754
00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:25,600
kind of like your

755
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,760
favorite which is a weird question to

756
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,080
ask but in terms of i mean that

757
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:33,200
holistically so in terms of the impact

758
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:35,440
it has in the game if you try and use it

759
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,880
uh the ways it can be used that kind of

760
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,360
stuff

761
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,840
what's my favorite check yeah

762
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:44,000
okay

763
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:46,000
um that's a good question what is my

764
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,400
favorite check

765
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,919
it's a weird one but um it's probably

766
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:54,159
somewhere in the charisma tree maybe um

767
00:25:51,919 --> 00:25:56,240
maybe like a performance or intimidation

768
00:25:54,159 --> 00:25:58,720
check one of one of those i couldn't

769
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,320
pick one out of the lineup um

770
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,559
i quite like those yeah a lot of

771
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,039
flexibility in those ones yeah

772
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,960
to go both dire and

773
00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:08,559
super successful

774
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,039
talking of um

775
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:11,760
animal handling it again particularly

776
00:26:11,039 --> 00:26:13,440
i

777
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,720
i think that animal handling falls into

778
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,760
the same

779
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,320
bucket as the ranger class

780
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,279
and there we go

781
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,679
the reason i say that is

782
00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:27,919
the the rare occasions you know i think

783
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:30,320
it's more more useful at lower levels

784
00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:31,120
because as soon as you start to level up

785
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,120
it's

786
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:36,400
it's more than likely i think that

787
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:39,520
there'll be a druid in any given party

788
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,360
you may also even have a ranger who may

789
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,080
also have their own animal companion and

790
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:46,960
both of those classes are quite

791
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,919
focused on nature and animals and

792
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,080
whatnot

793
00:26:47,919 --> 00:26:52,720
and i think it's quite

794
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,000
underwhelming for say

795
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,760
the bard

796
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,919
to to woo a horse

797
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,760
when you're standing next to a druid and

798
00:26:57,919 --> 00:27:03,520
a ranger whose whole reason for

799
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,720
for being alive is to tame the beast so

800
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,159
you could level that argument against

801
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,960
anything you could have the bard

802
00:27:06,159 --> 00:27:10,960
pickpocket somebody in it in a freak of

803
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,559
nature but

804
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,679
i don't know it just seems like that the

805
00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:18,080
rare times that the druid and the ranger

806
00:27:15,679 --> 00:27:20,799
could have have a time to shine

807
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,640
for them to have it robbed by

808
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:23,679
another class which i think is why i

809
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,279
would

810
00:27:23,679 --> 00:27:27,440
and perhaps you know

811
00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:29,679
less favorable of specifically animal

812
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,200
handling

813
00:27:29,679 --> 00:27:33,440
um yeah

814
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,880
yeah oh sorry god no i'm just going to

815
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,480
go and say like

816
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,760
to you you're saying earlier on about

817
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:42,080
the charisma tree ones would be your

818
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,159
your more preferred ability scores so

819
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,640
what are your thoughts on the optional

820
00:27:44,159 --> 00:27:48,880
rule of the dm's rule of

821
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,080
modifying an ability score with one of

822
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,640
the different

823
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,679
core six abilities so by that i mean

824
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,039
intimidation strength or

825
00:27:55,679 --> 00:27:58,559
um

826
00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:00,480
persuasion

827
00:27:58,559 --> 00:28:02,720
wisdom

828
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,480
do you think that's a good tool um and

829
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,520
how is it implemented and that kind of

830
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,039
stuff

831
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,440
i've not really considered it because i

832
00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:11,600
don't think before this campaign that

833
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,960
has never been used i'm not sure i think

834
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,799
we've used it a little bit in this

835
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:18,720
campaign

836
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:21,279
but um what do i think about it

837
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,880
in principle i i think on face value

838
00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:25,600
without potentially considering all the

839
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:28,320
ramifications i think it yeah

840
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,240
i like it i think it gives

841
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,480
non-charismatic

842
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,799
mechanically charismatic characters are

843
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,039
time to shine in in charismatic

844
00:28:34,799 --> 00:28:39,360
situations

845
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,200
and yeah i think so yeah and definitely

846
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,960
using strength

847
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,159
you know showing how strong you are cat

848
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,480
is definitely and would definitely be

849
00:28:44,159 --> 00:28:48,640
intimidating in real life so

850
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,559
you know intimidation isn't just verbal

851
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,960
sure yeah i think definitely that that

852
00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:54,480
on face value and uh on the first

853
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,480
thought then yeah i think that that's a

854
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,600
really good um

855
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,640
way of

856
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,640
allowing

857
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,000
characters to engage and excel at

858
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,440
different parts of the game that they

859
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,200
wouldn't otherwise

860
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:09,520
yeah that's exactly why i'm a fan too

861
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,279
and it ties back into player ability

862
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,399
because

863
00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:16,399
i as dm always try to encourage

864
00:29:14,399 --> 00:29:18,480
i want to barter for a lower price okay

865
00:29:16,399 --> 00:29:20,240
well tell me how do you do that i don't

866
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,200
want to just otherwise we'll turn it

867
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,720
into a

868
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,320
dice rolling game

869
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,120
and we could just go and play

870
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,720
glee maven for that so

871
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,559
i always try and encourage players to

872
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,480
say you know to describe their actions

873
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:34,399
because then i use that

874
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,080
to say okay well in this instance it's

875
00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:38,000
it's not persuasion charisma it's

876
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:41,279
persuasion something else and a good

877
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,960
example i read recently was trying to

878
00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:45,039
you know you're buying for sake of

879
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,399
argument medical supplies or just

880
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:48,399
supplies from

881
00:29:46,399 --> 00:29:50,240
from a local vendor

882
00:29:48,399 --> 00:29:52,880
and you go in and you say

883
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,559
can you do a lower price on this and the

884
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,240
example given was that they would that

885
00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:58,080
would be like persuasion

886
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,240
intelligence because that particular

887
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,640
character is aware of the kind of going

888
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,080
rate and the you know the market rate

889
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,240
from other nearby vendors for that kind

890
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,440
of stuff and they just know that he's

891
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,960
upselling

892
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,399
so the way that they can kind of

893
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,200
persuade him in this instance is to be

894
00:30:10,399 --> 00:30:15,200
like well i know you're applying at 25

895
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,360
points on that so

896
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,520
knock five off

897
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,840
uh which is which isn't

898
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,360
by smooth talking that's you you've

899
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,360
backed that up with some with some

900
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,679
knowledge with actual knowledge yeah

901
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,520
yeah which i i'd like to encourage more

902
00:30:27,679 --> 00:30:32,799
players to do

903
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,720
because you you get to use those unique

904
00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:36,799
combinations which are which are rarely

905
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,080
seen i think the charisma ones are most

906
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,640
easily

907
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:43,039
interchangeable so like arcana i think

908
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,399
99 times out of 100 is gonna be

909
00:30:43,039 --> 00:30:46,399
intelligence

910
00:30:44,399 --> 00:30:48,000
yeah because i think well the charisma

911
00:30:46,399 --> 00:30:50,080
trees they're very

912
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,559
broad as in like intimidation can take

913
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,760
on a ton of forms whereas

914
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:55,840
arcana

915
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,240
while there's lots of different

916
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,000
you know types of you know um arcana in

917
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,840
the world is always going to be

918
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,440
a form of arcana

919
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,960
you know so it's uh

920
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,080
yeah i see what you mean yeah so some

921
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,799
are some are quite

922
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,960
even in their own single word names some

923
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:13,120
are super broad and some are really

924
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,440
really not which is an interesting point

925
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,120
i haven't thought of too much

926
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,399
but again like slight of hand and then

927
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,760
i'm just trying to think is there

928
00:31:18,399 --> 00:31:22,320
anything there

929
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,399
dexterity based probably not i would

930
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,279
imagine that's always dexterity in lieu

931
00:31:24,399 --> 00:31:28,960
of there's no other core skills that um

932
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:31,039
core abilities that would

933
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,519
would would make sense in that instance

934
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:34,399
i guess if i was put on the spot and had

935
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,080
to

936
00:31:34,399 --> 00:31:37,640
had to think of an instance where

937
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,360
sleight of hand you could

938
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,320
potentially

939
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,159
tie it with charisma so rather than just

940
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,080
bumping some into somebody on the street

941
00:31:44,159 --> 00:31:48,559
and pickpocketing out there blazer

942
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:52,159
pocket if you were talking to somebody

943
00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:54,720
at a at a party or a ball could you

944
00:31:52,159 --> 00:31:56,960
control their attention enough

945
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,440
to enable you to just

946
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,519
pickpocket them with ease shall we say

947
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,640
so you you you know you can command the

948
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:06,880
conversation just through charisma okay

949
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,120
like as a distraction almost yeah yeah

950
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,559
so you're telling some some epic tale

951
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,240
that just has you know you're just

952
00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:14,000
commanding the attention of the room so

953
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,480
much so that you can just walk around

954
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,559
and nobody's paying any attention i

955
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,120
guess that that would be one stretch but

956
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:22,799
even as i'm saying it that sounds

957
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,240
kind of controversial you know off the

958
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:25,600
bat it's not a uh you know off the top

959
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,440
of your head it's not a bad example i

960
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,679
don't think

961
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,799
yeah so i think

962
00:32:29,679 --> 00:32:34,960
enacting those rules

963
00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:36,799
as a dm i think you need to make it very

964
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,679
off you know draw attention to the fact

965
00:32:36,799 --> 00:32:39,440
that

966
00:32:37,679 --> 00:32:40,960
you're making a you know a deception

967
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,559
check but you're not using charisma

968
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,440
you're using something else yeah and

969
00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:45,440
kind of

970
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,840
really hammer home to players that it's

971
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,399
because of you're doing this

972
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,320
that this is happening so you kind of

973
00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:54,159
cement in their minds that if you think

974
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,600
outside the box about something like you

975
00:32:54,159 --> 00:32:57,600
know if you go to other stores and check

976
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,600
prices of all the other of the similar

977
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,279
wares then you can bargain a bit more

978
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,679
effectively without necessarily being

979
00:33:01,279 --> 00:33:06,880
more charismatic yeah but

980
00:33:03,679 --> 00:33:08,880
yeah yeah just trying to think then like

981
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,039
intimidation i i think something that i

982
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,960
need to do better at is i think for when

983
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:15,360
you when you want to try new slides

984
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,679
utilize those a bit more it's

985
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,000
another level deeper so not just tell me

986
00:33:17,679 --> 00:33:22,399
what you're doing but so say someone

987
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,000
wants to intimidate i want to intimidate

988
00:33:22,399 --> 00:33:25,519
this this barkeep to tell us some

989
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,440
information

990
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:29,279
okay well how do you do it

991
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,120
i flex or i

992
00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:32,159
smash the chair up or something like

993
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,600
that

994
00:33:32,159 --> 00:33:35,760
then i think even

995
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,519
if i was you know middle of the game i

996
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,000
think even then i'd just say okay roll

997
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:42,640
me an intimidation check when in reality

998
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,880
that that should probably be

999
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,640
strength into you know intimidation

1000
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,399
strength so i think it's

1001
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,480
i guess in it

1002
00:33:48,399 --> 00:33:53,360
a signifier of a good dm

1003
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,399
might be having the

1004
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,679
wherewithal

1005
00:33:54,399 --> 00:33:57,519
mid flow

1006
00:33:55,679 --> 00:33:58,880
to spot those instances when when the

1007
00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:00,320
players might not be able to because

1008
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,600
they're just

1009
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,720
reading the sheet

1010
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,080
and again i think that's another thing

1011
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,640
that

1012
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:09,280
the character sheets it works against

1013
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,359
the players to a certain extent in in

1014
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,520
regards to helping them learn that

1015
00:34:11,359 --> 00:34:15,760
that's the thing that they can do

1016
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,359
yeah i i think it's it's definitely

1017
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,960
something that you should

1018
00:34:17,359 --> 00:34:21,359
think long and hard about before

1019
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,320
introducing to new players especially

1020
00:34:21,359 --> 00:34:24,000
because

1021
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,919
they'll be potentially having a

1022
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,800
difficult enough time getting their head

1023
00:34:25,919 --> 00:34:32,960
around the rules as written without

1024
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:35,119
this very good but very optional rule

1025
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,280
so i think i think this maybe it's one

1026
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:38,399
for um

1027
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,200
more uh

1028
00:34:38,399 --> 00:34:43,200
a more experienced table that can best

1029
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,399
use it and

1030
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,960
understand

1031
00:34:44,399 --> 00:34:48,639
how it's used hmm

1032
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,000
yeah that's a good point

1033
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,639
i'm always

1034
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:55,200
keen to to throw it out because it feels

1035
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:57,520
like it it encourages players to you

1036
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,359
know to think outside of the box but i i

1037
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,720
think you're right in that

1038
00:34:59,359 --> 00:35:02,960
i think there's yeah you should probably

1039
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:04,400
take it slowly slowly for starters

1040
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,800
especially with people who are starting

1041
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,040
out the gate the only reason i say that

1042
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,119
the sheets as we look at them

1043
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,280
i'm not a huge fan of and it's because

1044
00:35:11,119 --> 00:35:15,119
it it almost locks in that thought

1045
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,640
process of well

1046
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,200
persuasion is charisma i suck at

1047
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,960
charisma therefore i'll never speak to

1048
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,760
anyone ever again

1049
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,440
and

1050
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,440
then suddenly they've got this super

1051
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,760
negative

1052
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,560
uh you know stance on

1053
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,240
yeah and it leads to

1054
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,520
what i really dislike in games which

1055
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:35,280
which hasn't

1056
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,480
has not happened in our campaign but

1057
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,920
i've seen it happen in the past where

1058
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,839
space everyone just gets pigeonholed

1059
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,520
into their most their their

1060
00:35:39,839 --> 00:35:42,400
their role of expertise you know like so

1061
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,920
there'd be

1062
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,599
the face of the party who has a really

1063
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,040
high charisma score he do he does all

1064
00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:48,800
the talking because he can get the most

1065
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,480
out of it you know if there's a door

1066
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,560
that needs opening then we

1067
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,800
get the ogre out he's going to be uh

1068
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,839
he's going to be knocking that down

1069
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,960
and

1070
00:35:55,839 --> 00:35:58,320
while

1071
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,839
mechanically that's the most effective

1072
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,520
way to do it that's not

1073
00:35:59,839 --> 00:36:03,920
really how you

1074
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:07,280
how real life works or how you know real

1075
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,320
com real situations work while one cat

1076
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,599
while this character may have a really

1077
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,880
high christmas score he may not give a

1078
00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:13,280
[ __ ] about

1079
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,720
this conversation or the stakes yeah or

1080
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,560
and it might mean

1081
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:18,000
a lot to another character who has a low

1082
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,920
charisma score and just because of that

1083
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,599
you shouldn't

1084
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,640
you know you shouldn't exclude him on

1085
00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:26,880
the basis of having a poor score yeah in

1086
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,560
a game i was playing i i was playing a

1087
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,040
bard which might not come as a surprise

1088
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,880
with a very high charisma

1089
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,480
but was very

1090
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,560
indifferent to

1091
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,320
everything but was was often

1092
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,680
pushed to the front to say well you're

1093
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,680
the one that can talk to people so you

1094
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,079
should but in character i'm just saying

1095
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,680
stuff like i don't i don't care

1096
00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:47,200
i don't care what happens here we can

1097
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,760
all yeah you know these people can can

1098
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,520
do one there's no difference to me

1099
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,359
which then a minute fell back onto some

1100
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,960
of the other characters who weren't

1101
00:36:53,359 --> 00:36:56,400
as good with

1102
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,320
persuasion

1103
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,680
which then i think

1104
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,920
might have

1105
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,440
been a detriment to their enjoyment so

1106
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,040
now i'm kind of you know we're looping

1107
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,960
back around to say

1108
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,200
i don't know that again it's always a

1109
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,839
line right and i think it always comes

1110
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,079
back down to the kind of game people

1111
00:37:11,839 --> 00:37:16,720
want to play and i think as soon as it

1112
00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:18,400
only takes a really small

1113
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:19,760
misalignment

1114
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,480
and there's going to be

1115
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,800
friction which is another topic of my

1116
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,200
podcast episodes for a later date but

1117
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,200
there's there's going to be that

1118
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,359
rubbing each other up the wrong way kind

1119
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,960
of thing and sometimes that works to

1120
00:37:31,359 --> 00:37:34,960
the benefit of you know the rest of the

1121
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,440
party in the dm and other times it leads

1122
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,560
to that stalemate of you should talk to

1123
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,640
them well

1124
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,599
i don't want to well i can't because

1125
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,599
i've got

1126
00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:44,560
you know crappy charisma

1127
00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:47,599
well

1128
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,599
i guess i'm not doing anything here

1129
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:53,119
yeah yeah it's um

1130
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,119
it's a yeah it's definitely a

1131
00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:56,320
different player expectations that can

1132
00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:59,200
lead to that

1133
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,599
but yeah i'm a huge

1134
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,240
proponent of divorcing

1135
00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:06,480
what you want to do in the game based on

1136
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:08,240
what the numbers on your sheet

1137
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,000
yeah absolutely your sheet is not your

1138
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,680
character right it's just a rep is a

1139
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,720
representation you're a character within

1140
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,800
the framework of 5v so

1141
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:18,160
i think new i think that's enough to

1142
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,839
kind of come back to what you're talking

1143
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,000
about earlier that's another pitfall for

1144
00:38:19,839 --> 00:38:24,640
new players is being

1145
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,839
too dependent or too reliant on

1146
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:30,000
what their scores are you know they

1147
00:38:27,839 --> 00:38:32,079
you know maybe there's a gorge they need

1148
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,000
to jump but they look at their dexterity

1149
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:35,520
or their strength modifier and it's

1150
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,720
really bad so like oh i'm not going to

1151
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,880
do that because my character's not very

1152
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,720
good at that whereas in reality you know

1153
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,920
the situation calls for you to do it

1154
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,680
doesn't matter that you're about it you

1155
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,280
should be doing it anyway yeah and

1156
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,960
that's uh

1157
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,560
all we know from from our own gamers

1158
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,320
this you know this there's still people

1159
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,440
that harbour those those kind of

1160
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,960
thoughts

1161
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,480
and again i guess

1162
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,400
all that pains for me to say it i think

1163
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,320
that's a bad hangover from video games

1164
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,200
and that it's it's which are all numbers

1165
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,960
driven

1166
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,359
down to the core i think that's probably

1167
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,040
one of the biggest leaps for

1168
00:39:03,359 --> 00:39:07,200
will anybody but certainly people who

1169
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,800
play video games which

1170
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:12,400
there's probably a large overlap there

1171
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:15,280
between video games tabletop rpgs that

1172
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,200
yeah that that separation of this isn't

1173
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,800
an excel spreadsheet this isn't

1174
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,240
something that i can

1175
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,560
brute force

1176
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:24,960
to a certain extent you you can but

1177
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,400
there will be limits to that

1178
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,079
like that's

1179
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,280
super difficult and it's it's almost

1180
00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:30,640
like you know patting your head and

1181
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,920
rubbing your stomach it's something

1182
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,760
that's

1183
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,119
quite unintuitive i suppose after

1184
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,280
decades of gaming and you know let me

1185
00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:41,359
let me plug all my stuff into

1186
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:45,280
intelligence and now i can cast fireball

1187
00:39:41,359 --> 00:39:46,640
super easily and reliably and repeatably

1188
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,359
and then when they come up to somebody

1189
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,440
who

1190
00:39:47,359 --> 00:39:52,720
can just legendary resist their way out

1191
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,400
fireball or whatever it's like oh

1192
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:58,320
the numbers

1193
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,920
mean nothing anymore yeah yeah um for a

1194
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,280
lot of players i think the closest

1195
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,079
approximation

1196
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,960
that

1197
00:40:02,079 --> 00:40:07,680
they have to to D&D would be

1198
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,119
playing video games and unlike in D&D 

1199
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,680
there's no

1200
00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:14,000
there's no advantage to playing a game

1201
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,319
intentionally sub optimally

1202
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,800
in a game if if you decide

1203
00:40:16,319 --> 00:40:20,640
oh i'm going to let this guy die

1204
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,640
you don't get a new story path you fail

1205
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,000
the mission have to start again right so

1206
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,839
i think there's a there's a learning

1207
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,440
curve to understand that

1208
00:40:25,839 --> 00:40:28,800
okay i've let that guy die the story

1209
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,319
continues it just continues in a

1210
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,480
different vein

1211
00:40:30,319 --> 00:40:34,720
yeah that's a that's a good way to yeah

1212
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,319
it's a good example there of

1213
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:38,720
i can only imagine what it's like the

1214
00:40:36,319 --> 00:40:40,960
first time for a first player ever you

1215
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:42,720
know had encounters that

1216
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,800
experience and they're just like oh

1217
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:46,079
this is completely new ground for me and

1218
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,440
i don't know what

1219
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:49,210
is happening

1220
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:54,969
yeah

1221
00:40:49,210 --> 00:40:54,969
[Music]

1222
00:40:58,570 --> 00:41:02,160
[Music]

1223
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,160
i had there was one topic that i uh that

1224
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,760
i thought of ability that i thought

1225
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,280
could be quite interesting look at your

1226
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,440
take on which is

1227
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,280
inherent differences in how different

1228
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,000
ability scores

1229
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,680
are acted out in game so what i mean by

1230
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,000
that is that

1231
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,400
say you make a strength check to kick

1232
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,839
down the door you're you as the player

1233
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,359
you don't need to be physically strong

1234
00:41:21,839 --> 00:41:25,920
to be able for your character to kick

1235
00:41:23,359 --> 00:41:27,359
down the door if you win if you succeed

1236
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,200
the role sorry your dm will just

1237
00:41:27,359 --> 00:41:31,440
describe you kicking down the door

1238
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,520
however if you're trying to

1239
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,800
i don't know woo someone or intimidate

1240
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,960
someone

1241
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,880
you as a player need to have like an

1242
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,240
approximate of the

1243
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,920
the wit or the uh the charisma that

1244
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:45,839
your character has

1245
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,760
so there's a there's a big difference

1246
00:41:45,839 --> 00:41:50,079
between like strengths and dex checks

1247
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,760
then there are against like

1248
00:41:50,079 --> 00:41:52,960
wisdom and charisma intersect i think

1249
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,319
somewhere in the middle but i think it's

1250
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,400
quite

1251
00:41:54,319 --> 00:41:58,800
an interesting concept

1252
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:01,359
how do you how do you play

1253
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,720
so a wise it's a lot more difficult i

1254
00:42:01,359 --> 00:42:05,359
think to play

1255
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:06,720
a really charismatic character excuse me

1256
00:42:05,359 --> 00:42:08,800
than it is to play a really strong

1257
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:10,400
character yeah because to play a strong

1258
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,839
character you don't have to be strong

1259
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,000
play a charismatic character you

1260
00:42:11,839 --> 00:42:16,640
yourself have to be charismatic it's not

1261
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,640
as if you can say okay go out you know

1262
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,800
into the garden and tell me how you're

1263
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,359
leaping over that fence

1264
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,280
i think yeah and to keep on the theme of

1265
00:42:23,359 --> 00:42:27,200
new players i think that's a um that's

1266
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,119
something that's a rude awakening for a

1267
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,800
lot of people is the first time they

1268
00:42:29,119 --> 00:42:32,880
talk to an nbc

1269
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,720
and they're expected now they understand

1270
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,880
that they're expected to

1271
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:38,560
have a conversation not just say okay i

1272
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,560
intimidate this guy to give me the

1273
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,319
information i need yeah

1274
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,280
so yeah yeah i think yeah i think it's

1275
00:42:42,319 --> 00:42:44,560
like

1276
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,520
it's a really

1277
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,040
interesting divorce in in how

1278
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,880
different ability scores kind of

1279
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,480
manifest in the game it's this

1280
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,079
dissonance between

1281
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,400
player and character which you're trying

1282
00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:57,520
to break down as much as possible and

1283
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,640
then you

1284
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,240
approach something like that and

1285
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,480
suddenly you're staring back through the

1286
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,599
fourth wall again in an instant

1287
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,200
um

1288
00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:08,640
and yeah that's super difficult as a dm

1289
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,359
all this talk we've been saying of you

1290
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,040
know

1291
00:43:09,359 --> 00:43:12,640
giving the players opportunities to

1292
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,319
approach their ability checks in the way

1293
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:17,839
they want to and this that and the other

1294
00:43:14,319 --> 00:43:20,319
and then when you hit a hard wall almost

1295
00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:22,880
like that it's

1296
00:43:20,319 --> 00:43:24,720
it's super difficult to

1297
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,720
to find the line especially when you've

1298
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:28,640
got a broad and mixed

1299
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:31,440
and busy table

1300
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,680
it's super difficult because yeah

1301
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,880
you don't want to make someone

1302
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,599
you know another player at the table be

1303
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,839
like

1304
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:40,319
explain to me in detail how you do this

1305
00:43:37,839 --> 00:43:42,000
and they go to great lengths to i leap

1306
00:43:40,319 --> 00:43:43,280
over here and touch that and i slide

1307
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,200
along the floor and do all this other

1308
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,720
stuff like okay that's great you can you

1309
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,079
can do that with advantage and the next

1310
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:50,480
player just says

1311
00:43:48,079 --> 00:43:52,000
i talk to him scarily

1312
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,440
you know there's

1313
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,200
that is rubbing me up the wrong way a

1314
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,240
little bit because one of the players

1315
00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:00,079
gets one rule while a different player

1316
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:02,400
has a different rule and i guess it

1317
00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:03,200
comes down to maturity at the table as

1318
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,440
to

1319
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,920
if that's okay and i think to be fair

1320
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:10,720
the rules as written do state that you

1321
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,640
can just say joe blogs goes over here

1322
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,560
yeah and joe does this and i guess you

1323
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,319
could extrapolate that's who goes over

1324
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,839
to the barkeep and shouts at him

1325
00:44:16,319 --> 00:44:18,640
aggressively

1326
00:44:17,839 --> 00:44:21,040
which

1327
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,040
hands up isn't really the way

1328
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,319
i like to play

1329
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,520
but it is

1330
00:44:24,319 --> 00:44:29,119
a legit way to play i guess there's an

1331
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,800
issue there when you have half the

1332
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:32,800
players do it that way and the other

1333
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,640
half do it the other way yeah i think

1334
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,440
you need to definitely set ground balls

1335
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,440
and

1336
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,560
i don't think either either way is wrong

1337
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,119
i i

1338
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,720
definitely sit in the camp of

1339
00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:44,560
have you know having to have a

1340
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:46,960
conversation but if that everyone's in

1341
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:49,119
agreement at the table that okay for

1342
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,640
these types of roles you don't actually

1343
00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:52,960
have to describe a conversation you can

1344
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,280
just describe an act an overall action

1345
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,400
yeah i think that's that's fair and it

1346
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,079
sacrifices more engaging

1347
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,640
gameplay with

1348
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:04,319
uh fairer gameplay i'm not sure affair

1349
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,160
is the best word but that kind of rule

1350
00:45:04,319 --> 00:45:08,160
set basically then makes charisma

1351
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,160
equivalent to strength where you don't

1352
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,520
have to in a way it's more inclusive

1353
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,520
it's because if you really want to play

1354
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,440
a charismatic character

1355
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:18,240
but you yourself are really introverted

1356
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,319
really awkward can't be charismatic then

1357
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:22,880
it kind of allows you that

1358
00:45:20,319 --> 00:45:24,880
yeah role but i think even saying that

1359
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,440
now is i'm still not but i'm still not

1360
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,920
buying it i think

1361
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,440
i think that if you are an uncharismatic

1362
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,400
person who wants to play a charismatic

1363
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,359
character

1364
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:37,760
then look at it as an opportunity to try

1365
00:45:35,359 --> 00:45:38,480
and be more charismatic you know and i

1366
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,640
think

1367
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,599
yeah intention

1368
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,800
should

1369
00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:45,760
have a large bearing on intention as

1370
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,599
well as

1371
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,800
in what players are you trying to do

1372
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:50,560
yeah

1373
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,800
actually if they try really hard to like

1374
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,960
to you know to deceive this person even

1375
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,800
if the execution's not great i think as

1376
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,200
a dm you owe it to that player to kind

1377
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,280
of give them a bit more leeway sure and

1378
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,680
you know even in real life if

1379
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,760
it's a bumbling attempt

1380
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,319
in in game i think you

1381
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,760
you should another rule fudge you should

1382
00:46:08,319 --> 00:46:12,319
uh

1383
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:14,079
you should kind of consider whether to

1384
00:46:12,319 --> 00:46:15,680
let this go through because the you know

1385
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:17,599
the players trying really hard to do it

1386
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,280
they're obviously invested

1387
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:21,760
it's not going as it's not really going

1388
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,599
that well really but the intention is

1389
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,800
there and the uh

1390
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:28,960
yeah yeah i agree and that it's

1391
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,200
yeah i'm not about to suggest we

1392
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,160
penalize players for

1393
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,319
being

1394
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:37,280
unsociable or having a lack of social

1395
00:46:34,319 --> 00:46:38,880
skills over you know

1396
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,839
physically frail players not being able

1397
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,640
to do their strength

1398
00:46:40,839 --> 00:46:45,680
scores well

1399
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,280
what i would encourage i guess is to say

1400
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,560
to those that maybe struggle with that

1401
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,480
is that

1402
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,560
you know use it as you know you're not

1403
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,960
yourself when you sit down on the the

1404
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,040
game's begun you are not you

1405
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,960
so imagine

1406
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,920
well and i've said it to you guys enough

1407
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,319
you know

1408
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:04,319
what would what would your person do

1409
00:47:02,319 --> 00:47:06,240
well they would they would

1410
00:47:04,319 --> 00:47:08,319
say these things in this fashion and

1411
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:10,160
then suddenly you're halfway there to

1412
00:47:08,319 --> 00:47:12,560
to you know you might not have the wit

1413
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:15,599
or the cutting words to

1414
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,640
to be able to do it properly but

1415
00:47:15,599 --> 00:47:18,960
there's a

1416
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,880
you know you can meet in the middle um

1417
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,640
but it's a personal

1418
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,800
take i've had recently in my in my other

1419
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,440
game i'm playing a highly intelligent

1420
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,559
wizard yeah who is more intelligent than

1421
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,800
myself

1422
00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:32,400
by far uh and

1423
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,720
you know the dm's having to rely a

1424
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:37,440
little bit on on those intelligence

1425
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:39,280
roles to sometimes get through puzzles

1426
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,880
and encounters so it's like

1427
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,200
quinn roll me this roll me an

1428
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,559
intelligence check and and he uses it as

1429
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,119
a vehicle there

1430
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:49,040
to aid the players so

1431
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:51,440
in those instances i'm also i'm almost

1432
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,599
acting as a proxy for the dm i'm almost

1433
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,640
the tag along npc for that particular

1434
00:47:53,599 --> 00:47:56,800
instance

1435
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,240
yeah as my own intelligence just it's

1436
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,760
just not there to

1437
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:03,040
get the pieces together

1438
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:06,160
but in intel it's easier in my opinion

1439
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,680
to play a highly intelligent character

1440
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,280
that it and there'd be a disparity

1441
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,800
between player and character than that

1442
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,280
is to play a really wise or very

1443
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,200
charismatic character because sure if

1444
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,480
with intelligence the

1445
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,480
the uh

1446
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:21,119
dm as a recourse to basically just give

1447
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,520
you information and it be

1448
00:48:21,119 --> 00:48:25,520
and it not be a cop-out and it'd be

1449
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,280
um appropriate within the context yeah

1450
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,200
make sure your character is that smart

1451
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,440
yeah right so you might not know as a

1452
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,760
player you know what these ancient

1453
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:36,319
glyphs mean or what this puzzle is but

1454
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:38,000
you as a as a character you know that's

1455
00:48:36,319 --> 00:48:40,400
your wheelhouse you know that so it

1456
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:43,200
makes total sense for a

1457
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,240
for a dm to say okay you know x y and z

1458
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:45,440
whereas

1459
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:48,400
with

1460
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,599
with wisdom is a lot harder for the dm

1461
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,280
to

1462
00:48:49,599 --> 00:48:54,880
give you or make you look wise yeah it's

1463
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,640
a lot more nebulous there same as

1464
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:59,760
charisma is this difficult for a dm to

1465
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,240
make you

1466
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,520
look more charismatic i think i think

1467
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:04,880
it's harder

1468
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,559
but

1469
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,880
i would think that

1470
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:10,000
there may be closer than you might think

1471
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,000
because

1472
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,520
if if the player is again let's say

1473
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,839
let's just say that they're flirting

1474
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,319
with with an

1475
00:49:14,839 --> 00:49:18,880
npc um

1476
00:49:16,319 --> 00:49:20,480
and the player themselves is is crap

1477
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,680
flirting and just says i approach them

1478
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,640
and i

1479
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,160
say

1480
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,000
you smell nice

1481
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,960
and obviously that's

1482
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,280
a bit yeah you know uh forthcoming

1483
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,280
uh in real life but if they're playing

1484
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,839
the bard or something i think

1485
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:38,960
the dm again the onus is on the dm here

1486
00:49:35,839 --> 00:49:42,559
i suppose to say hey this player's

1487
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:44,240
character is is highly charismatic so

1488
00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:47,119
that there's that straight out the gate

1489
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:49,280
b the roll might be really high

1490
00:49:47,119 --> 00:49:52,319
so then they might i don't know i guess

1491
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:54,000
if if the player is that much of

1492
00:49:52,319 --> 00:49:55,920
passive is maybe not the best word but

1493
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,440
kind of on the back foot in a way

1494
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,280
then i can say i would say that it's

1495
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,119
within the player's remit excuse me the

1496
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,160
dm's remit to say

1497
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:04,960
okay

1498
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,800
you might not say that you might comment

1499
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,800
that yeah there's there's a floral note

1500
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:11,040
in the air and something you know it

1501
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,520
says you know something like that or

1502
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:15,520
or you or they say

1503
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,640
oh you know the npc says oh yes i've

1504
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,160
just bought this fragrance only

1505
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,920
yesterday and it's it's my new favorite

1506
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,839
thank you very much for noticing it

1507
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,000
which is the same way of them saying

1508
00:50:21,839 --> 00:50:26,319
okay mr wizard you know that this glyph

1509
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,839
means this it's just yeah a lot harder

1510
00:50:26,319 --> 00:50:30,160
to do it's a good point

1511
00:50:27,839 --> 00:50:32,720
but i guess that ties back into dm

1512
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,800
ability in that it's you know

1513
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:36,079
once you can start to nail those on the

1514
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,079
fly

1515
00:50:36,079 --> 00:50:39,359
then you'll you're halfway there and one

1516
00:50:38,079 --> 00:50:41,520
thing i wanted to mention that i

1517
00:50:39,359 --> 00:50:44,480
personally think is a huge

1518
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,760
boon to dming is

1519
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,640
improvising

1520
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,319
i

1521
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,000
i don't i don't feel like i read about

1522
00:50:48,319 --> 00:50:52,480
it a lot or

1523
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,680
it's commented a lot but

1524
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,760
it's another one of those things where

1525
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,440
if you do it well the players won't know

1526
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,359
you're doing it yeah

1527
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,520
but the amount of times when i've been

1528
00:50:59,359 --> 00:51:03,599
playing in games and

1529
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,480
maybe it's it's a curse of

1530
00:51:03,599 --> 00:51:06,240
being

1531
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,720
a dm that you

1532
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:10,720
you can spot instances of improvisation

1533
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:12,160
slightly easier

1534
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:12,960
but the amount of times i've gone okay

1535
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,640
that's

1536
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:17,200
that's happening because

1537
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:18,079
we're we're going off rails a little bit

1538
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,920
yeah

1539
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:22,960
so would you agree with that like

1540
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,720
improvising and bear in mind that i have

1541
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,800
basically no experience or very little

1542
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:28,480
experience with pre-made modules i've

1543
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,240
not played lost minds i've not played

1544
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,599
any of the other books so

1545
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:33,520
potentially improvising is less

1546
00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:35,119
important in those settings but what are

1547
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,440
your thoughts

1548
00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:39,760
so what's the uh what's the question

1549
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,160
how important is improvising yeah i

1550
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,079
guess to for a dungeon master

1551
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,200
specifically i would say to

1552
00:51:44,079 --> 00:51:49,119
pre-made

1553
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:51,520
modules oh okay so i still think um

1554
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,640
it's absolutely critical because even

1555
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,960
within

1556
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:57,119
the boundaries of a pre-made campaign

1557
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,200
those cam you know i've not read a ton

1558
00:51:57,119 --> 00:52:01,839
of pre-made campaigns i've read a bit of

1559
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:04,079
lost minds a bit of um

1560
00:52:01,839 --> 00:52:06,240
storm king's thunder yeah yeah that

1561
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:07,119
rings a bell um and even those they're

1562
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:09,040
more

1563
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:10,559
frameworky than

1564
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,720
prescriptive

1565
00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:14,319
so things often go

1566
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:16,559
players will make decisions that aren't

1567
00:52:14,319 --> 00:52:18,319
captured in the in the

1568
00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:20,079
you know captured as a as a defined

1569
00:52:18,319 --> 00:52:22,400
decision in the um

1570
00:52:20,079 --> 00:52:25,200
in the campaign so dm still has to roll

1571
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,240
with it massively so yeah i think

1572
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,160
while

1573
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:29,680
campaigns give you a good framework to

1574
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,200
work from

1575
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,400
that it's going to go sideways every

1576
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,680
single session

1577
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,680
it's never ever going to go as you

1578
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,520
expect it to go so i still think you

1579
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,960
know you need to be able to improvise

1580
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,920
your way out of it

1581
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,440
and i think i think it's fine that um if

1582
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,880
players can kind of tell that you're

1583
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,000
improvising

1584
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,920
i don't think it for me at least it

1585
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,359
doesn't break very similar to or you

1586
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,319
know my enjoyment of the game if i can

1587
00:52:49,359 --> 00:52:54,559
tell that dm didn't expect this at all

1588
00:52:52,319 --> 00:52:57,119
and it's kind of making it up that you

1589
00:52:54,559 --> 00:52:59,200
know that's just part and parcel for me

1590
00:52:57,119 --> 00:53:01,599
okay well that that makes me feel better

1591
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,720
then about myself

1592
00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:04,559
um

1593
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:06,480
should i should i ever should i ever

1594
00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:08,480
need to make things up on the spot which

1595
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,319
has never happened once um that happens

1596
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,000
all the time um

1597
00:53:10,319 --> 00:53:13,599
okay yeah so

1598
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,880
i think the only reason i said it was so

1599
00:53:13,599 --> 00:53:17,440
important is because of exactly what you

1600
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,800
said that yeah there's you know you can

1601
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,319
plan for

1602
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,800
for weeks and weeks and weeks and

1603
00:53:20,319 --> 00:53:24,400
literally within the first 10 minutes

1604
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,800
yeah they've they've completely the

1605
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:29,920
players have completely missed a hook or

1606
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,520
gone left when you planned right and

1607
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,800
yeah the ways

1608
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,200
to

1609
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,240
do that without letting the stage fall

1610
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,720
over

1611
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:40,640
is is super difficult but

1612
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:42,559
one of them important things

1613
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:46,079
when i used to play in the campaign with

1614
00:53:42,559 --> 00:53:48,079
some people from uh from from london um

1615
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:49,200
it we were playing one session and

1616
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:50,640
normally our sessions were about three

1617
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,880
four hours long and we got like an hour

1618
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,000
and a half in and the campaign was

1619
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,160
starting to

1620
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,839
do rail so much from what the dm plan

1621
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,280
that they basically just said i'm going

1622
00:53:57,839 --> 00:54:01,280
to call it here

1623
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,640
we can just hang out for the rest of the

1624
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,559
you know sorry we can hang out for the

1625
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,079
rest of the time but

1626
00:54:04,559 --> 00:54:08,400
i want to spend i want to spend some

1627
00:54:06,079 --> 00:54:10,160
time to think about how to um

1628
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,160
you wouldn't do it properly how yeah how

1629
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:14,400
to how the campaign should move because

1630
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:16,319
it's gone so far outside what i was

1631
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,319
expecting it to happen and i have a lot

1632
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:20,160
more respect for that and was a lot more

1633
00:54:18,319 --> 00:54:21,760
supportive of that as a decision than i

1634
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,400
would have been if he'd

1635
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:26,319
kept going yeah and just be a mess and

1636
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,920
it was just a mess because you know yeah

1637
00:54:26,319 --> 00:54:30,400
so at the end of the day

1638
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,599
what i want out of d is it like a good

1639
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,920
story

1640
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:36,319
right and that was the way the best way

1641
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,680
to get the best story is just to cut cut

1642
00:54:36,319 --> 00:54:38,559
it there and say we'll pick you up next

1643
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,359
time

1644
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:43,920
yeah okay so but behind the scenes a

1645
00:54:41,359 --> 00:54:46,160
little bit if we ever finish

1646
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:49,440
you know at a weird time or slightly

1647
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:52,559
earlier that is a absolute signifier

1648
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:54,079
yeah the the dm's going

1649
00:54:52,559 --> 00:54:56,480
cliffhanger let me

1650
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:59,280
give me two weeks to think about that

1651
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,400
um which i have done in in the past if

1652
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,160
it's a

1653
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,359
if it's a good time to say why don't we

1654
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,040
why don't we end it there i know it's

1655
00:55:03,359 --> 00:55:07,839
slightly earlier but it's it's a good

1656
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:10,000
place to end which is code for i have no

1657
00:55:07,839 --> 00:55:11,680
idea what's coming up next let me let me

1658
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,040
spend some time to make it good rather

1659
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,480
than just

1660
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:18,160
goblins are coming out the walls yeah

1661
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,000
so finally

1662
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,920
i had a question that

1663
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,359
i couldn't think of an answer for myself

1664
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,680
talking about

1665
00:55:23,359 --> 00:55:28,240
kind of abilities and the modifiers that

1666
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:31,200
the numbers from what i gather

1667
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:34,640
that whole system has been simplified

1668
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:36,319
substantially from the previous editions

1669
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,640
so it's you know it's only uh

1670
00:55:36,319 --> 00:55:40,160
basically 10 to 20. it's rare that

1671
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,000
people are going to go lower higher than

1672
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,079
those kind of things and then obviously

1673
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,280
the modifiers are pretty much zero to

1674
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:47,040
plus five

1675
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,559
so i had a thought that

1676
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,079
do you reckon that's

1677
00:55:48,559 --> 00:55:50,880
a good thing

1678
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:52,960
or

1679
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:55,280
uh heading in the right direction

1680
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:57,040
as in making it simplified from previous

1681
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,720
versions yeah um

1682
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,920
like it's difficult for me to answer

1683
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:01,520
because i don't have the context of

1684
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:02,559
having played previous versions so i

1685
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:05,359
don't know

1686
00:56:02,559 --> 00:56:07,280
how they played i do like

1687
00:56:05,359 --> 00:56:09,520
we've with just an understanding of 5v i

1688
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,799
do like that it is very once you get

1689
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,760
hair on it it's very simple to

1690
00:56:10,799 --> 00:56:15,920
understand what the dice rolls mean and

1691
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,839
what the output is

1692
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,839
the only only thing that's niggling in

1693
00:56:17,839 --> 00:56:21,760
my head is that

1694
00:56:19,839 --> 00:56:23,920
yeah the output of that is that at lower

1695
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,319
levels not like one two necessary one to

1696
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:28,000
three but maybe you know three to five

1697
00:56:26,319 --> 00:56:29,280
yeah when you're starting to become an

1698
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,440
expert and you you know starting to

1699
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,400
become a journeyman in your in your

1700
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,559
class

1701
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,880
your proficiency bonuses and your

1702
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:39,280
modifiers are still quite low yes so

1703
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,960
that the d20 is

1704
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,040
has a significantly higher weighting on

1705
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,880
the overall score than

1706
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:47,119
than your ability score then your

1707
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,359
ability which

1708
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:50,720
at times has annoyed me because i'm like

1709
00:56:49,359 --> 00:56:52,160
i'm i'm

1710
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:53,760
i should be good at this but i just

1711
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,599
wrote really poorly so now i'm really

1712
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,440
bad at it whereas this person who's

1713
00:56:55,599 --> 00:56:59,040
really bad at it has just rolled really

1714
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:00,480
well so now he's good at it

1715
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,319
but

1716
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,960
i find the sweet spot is around

1717
00:57:02,319 --> 00:57:07,119
10 before it starts to swing in the the

1718
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,280
correct direction of proficiency's

1719
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:11,680
bonuses plus your ability score

1720
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:14,079
modifiers starts to swing to basically

1721
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:15,520
mitigate that yeah you no longer have a

1722
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:16,960
bad role

1723
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:19,119
yeah and i think that's that's that can

1724
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,760
be a gut reaction

1725
00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:23,359
when it happens is that it's so annoying

1726
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,280
i couldn't you know this the dice i

1727
00:57:23,359 --> 00:57:26,799
don't have any agency that i

1728
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,079
it yeah but

1729
00:57:26,799 --> 00:57:31,599
when you think about it more there's a

1730
00:57:28,079 --> 00:57:33,359
lot more nuance to it than that in the

1731
00:57:31,599 --> 00:57:35,920
final you roll poorly this one time but

1732
00:57:33,359 --> 00:57:37,760
you just take that as a cue to progress

1733
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,200
the character you know maybe you

1734
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:42,319
completely messed up once and you want

1735
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:44,000
to reflect on that yeah yeah and then

1736
00:57:42,319 --> 00:57:45,599
it shows that it says you said it so it

1737
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,599
tends the sweet spot

1738
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:48,880
and it's it's

1739
00:57:47,599 --> 00:57:51,040
but if you've you know if you've

1740
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,640
languished in level four and not really

1741
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:55,599
being able to be effective when you get

1742
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,799
to like level level 12 and you're really

1743
00:57:55,599 --> 00:57:58,559
intelligent

1744
00:57:56,799 --> 00:58:00,720
guy now you can kind of look back and

1745
00:57:58,559 --> 00:58:01,599
see the your character grow

1746
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,480
yeah

1747
00:58:01,599 --> 00:58:05,920
now you have a lot more agency yeah and

1748
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:09,440
that's one thing i

1749
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:12,000
would like to do probably more of is

1750
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,119
a tip i find online is that

1751
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,520
rerun

1752
00:58:13,119 --> 00:58:18,640
an identical encounter that the players

1753
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:20,480
ran when they were say level 3 we run it

1754
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,799
again when they're at level 10 without

1755
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,319
it being scaled just to have them like

1756
00:58:22,799 --> 00:58:26,640
one pull over the enemies just to be

1757
00:58:24,319 --> 00:58:28,799
like here's how far you've come on paper

1758
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:31,520
now yeah i really like that as a trope

1759
00:58:28,799 --> 00:58:33,280
as it was a as a mechanic

1760
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,960
just to see how how easy it is because

1761
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,799
you lose i think you can lose sight of

1762
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:39,520
how strong you're becoming because

1763
00:58:36,799 --> 00:58:41,280
essentially enemies scale with you yes

1764
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,960
so you're constant you should

1765
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:45,440
overall constantly be you know

1766
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,880
struggling to defeat the enemies and

1767
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,119
sometimes you can lose sight of the fact

1768
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,480
that oh now we're fighting a dragon

1769
00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:52,160
whereas

1770
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,799
five levels ago we were fighting a gang

1771
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,400
of goblins yeah yeah in my i finally

1772
00:58:54,799 --> 00:58:58,160
used it because in my previous game it's

1773
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,359
just wrapped up actually we were

1774
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:02,000
thinking about

1775
00:58:59,359 --> 00:59:03,920
uh there'd be a dragon boss funnily

1776
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,760
enough coming up and one of the players

1777
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,520
asked the dm but does it get stronger

1778
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,839
with us

1779
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,640
to which he was like uh uh

1780
00:59:09,839 --> 00:59:14,079
well

1781
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:15,920
yeah but no but maybe uh but you could

1782
00:59:14,079 --> 00:59:16,880
see the thought process there for them

1783
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,839
was

1784
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:20,960
well if they do then

1785
00:59:19,839 --> 00:59:22,720
us getting stronger doesn't make a

1786
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,880
difference so you can see already there

1787
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:27,280
that it's it's

1788
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:28,559
i thought i think an unfortunate

1789
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,960
part of

1790
00:59:28,559 --> 00:59:31,920
of the game essentially i think it's one

1791
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,119
of those things that we're just gonna

1792
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,920
have to deal with

1793
00:59:33,119 --> 00:59:38,880
yeah it's it's mitigated quite a bit by

1794
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:40,319
the fact that as you do level up you're

1795
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,000
independent of the enemy you're fighting

1796
00:59:40,319 --> 00:59:44,559
is that your spells become stronger you

1797
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:47,200
know like magic missile level one is one

1798
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:49,200
three d four four three but you know at

1799
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,440
max level you're rolling you know a

1800
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,960
whole collection's worth a dice and then

1801
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,720
the numbers get bigger so i think you

1802
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,640
still feel more powerful

1803
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,799
and especially if i spell caster classes

1804
00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:00,960
you get a lot of

1805
00:59:58,799 --> 01:00:03,119
really cool like not necessarily com not

1806
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,480
necessarily damage spells yeah but

1807
01:00:03,119 --> 01:00:06,240
utility bills

1808
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:08,559
utility spells that's what i was looking

1809
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,720
for yeah at higher levels to basically

1810
01:00:08,559 --> 01:00:12,720
auto reality itself yeah

1811
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:14,400
like stuff like dimension door yeah you

1812
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:17,359
know which isn't really too too high

1813
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:19,520
level but yes it's a nice that's a game

1814
01:00:17,359 --> 01:00:21,200
changer yeah yeah yeah

1815
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:25,119
so

1816
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:27,119
to end it on on a big question here

1817
01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:29,440
the modifiers themselves is in the plus

1818
01:00:27,119 --> 01:00:30,799
number big box or little box on the

1819
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,760
character sheet

1820
01:00:30,799 --> 01:00:33,520
hold on

1821
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,760
let me have a look at this real question

1822
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,359
is she out to see uh

1823
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,559
to see where i've put it

1824
01:00:37,359 --> 01:00:40,480
i've put

1825
01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:42,400
the modifier

1826
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,400
in like minus one plus one whatever in

1827
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:47,440
the little box and there's some oh no in

1828
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:49,520
the big box oh no

1829
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:52,559
no it's all meant to be discussion but i

1830
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,559
gotta say that's wrong

1831
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:56,559
is it

1832
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:59,200
i'm i'm a big box kind of guy for the

1833
01:00:56,559 --> 01:01:01,440
numbers uh the modifiers should i say

1834
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,319
the point of the question being is that

1835
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,880
the

1836
01:01:02,319 --> 01:01:06,640
scores themselves so the 12s 14s and

1837
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:09,040
whatnot

1838
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:11,040
basically mean nothing on their own

1839
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,040
when you think about it so as i

1840
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:16,640
understand it and i could be off base

1841
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:19,119
here they're basically like a legacy

1842
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:21,119
layover of previous editions where those

1843
01:01:19,119 --> 01:01:23,440
scores were important and they've been

1844
01:01:21,119 --> 01:01:25,920
rolled into 5e but essentially their

1845
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:28,640
only purpose now is for you to look up

1846
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:31,520
on a table and reference what your

1847
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:34,720
there are modifiers there are a few

1848
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:38,079
instances in the books of

1849
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,880
them still having an effect so i like

1850
01:01:38,079 --> 01:01:41,599
what

1851
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,720
um predominantly i offered on my head to

1852
01:01:41,599 --> 01:01:45,839
do with

1853
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:47,839
intelligence so stuff like

1854
01:01:45,839 --> 01:01:50,000
a creature with an intelligence lower

1855
01:01:47,839 --> 01:01:51,839
than seven

1856
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,599
can't be affected by

1857
01:01:51,839 --> 01:01:55,680
certain spells or

1858
01:01:53,599 --> 01:01:57,359
you know mind flayers can only sense

1859
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,520
creatures with an intelligence greater

1860
01:01:57,359 --> 01:02:01,200
than eight because

1861
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,039
you know there's a line somewhere and i

1862
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:05,280
think it's a bit lower than that between

1863
01:02:03,039 --> 01:02:06,640
basically it seems really weird to

1864
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,640
abstract it out here but they've

1865
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,319
basically put in a line to say

1866
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:12,480
anything with an intelligence lower than

1867
01:02:10,319 --> 01:02:14,720
four is basically like a beast and

1868
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,640
anything higher is hello i'm a

1869
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,799
functioning member of society which is a

1870
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:20,559
huge leap but i think that's the only

1871
01:02:18,799 --> 01:02:22,799
way that they could

1872
01:02:20,559 --> 01:02:24,880
make that difference when it comes to to

1873
01:02:22,799 --> 01:02:27,359
spells intelligence is definitely one

1874
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:29,839
and then you also have

1875
01:02:27,359 --> 01:02:32,079
some things that like uh vampires and

1876
01:02:29,839 --> 01:02:34,559
ghosts can you know sap your strength

1877
01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:37,280
and they're sapping the big number

1878
01:02:34,559 --> 01:02:38,880
but then obviously that then yeah it

1879
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,000
impacts the smaller number

1880
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,680
but um

1881
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,520
yeah that's there's some good examples

1882
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,599
and taken into account but

1883
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,200
hypothetically if six that you were to

1884
01:02:45,599 --> 01:02:48,880
do away with the big numbers i think you

1885
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:49,920
could easy you could find workarounds

1886
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,559
for those

1887
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:54,319
circumstances yeah

1888
01:02:52,559 --> 01:02:57,440
and only the modifiers if you have an

1889
01:02:54,319 --> 01:02:59,359
intelligence of yeah minus three or yeah

1890
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,599
or lower or higher however you want to

1891
01:02:59,359 --> 01:03:02,640
color it yeah it's uh yeah that would be

1892
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:05,680
the cut off

1893
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:07,680
when you hit minus five strength you die

1894
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:09,440
from like being completely exhausted or

1895
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,760
having your brain sucked however it is

1896
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:14,160
yeah yeah so uh

1897
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:16,640
so okay well um in that case we'll end

1898
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:18,720
it there on our little uh

1899
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:20,319
agree to disagree on whether the

1900
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,400
modifiers should go

1901
01:03:20,319 --> 01:03:23,839
but otherwise i think we've we've talked

1902
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,160
quite a lot about

1903
01:03:23,839 --> 01:03:27,520
what ability means and and the the

1904
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,880
different ways it can be

1905
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,559
yeah it was a good it was a good chat i

1906
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,240
think it's good to

1907
01:03:30,559 --> 01:03:34,400
get to get your thoughts on it lots of

1908
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:37,680
lots of advice in there for for new and

1909
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:39,119
returning both players and and dms so

1910
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:41,280
otherwise i'll say

1911
01:03:39,119 --> 01:03:43,599
thank you very much jack for for joining

1912
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:45,359
me today thank you for having me

1913
01:03:43,599 --> 01:03:47,039
that's quite all right thank you all for

1914
01:03:45,359 --> 01:03:48,720
listening remember to tune in next

1915
01:03:47,039 --> 01:03:50,480
episode for more insightful discussion

1916
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:52,820
around dungeons and dragons

1917
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:57,980
thank you and good night

1918
01:03:52,820 --> 01:03:57,980
[Music]

Jack Wain

Guest