Jan. 14, 2022

Horror


This episode I'm joined by the GM of the Negative Modifier podcast, Charley, to discuss horror in our TTRGPs. Horror is variable and subjective, and so has unique challenges when attempting to introduce it into your setting. The first being the age old problem of having to play with other people! As everyone is different, it's impossible to know what another player might find uncomfortable, and even with a Session Zero it's challenging to appreciate the sensitivities of others. Juggling these issues can make introducing horror a terrifying experience (both literally and as a pun). The key, as with many things in D&D, is foreshadowing. Not only does this neatly sidestep the cheapness of things like jump scares, it also clearly informs the players of the theme of a setting or scene. An additional, tertiary benefit, is that it builds in an atmosphere of unease; if you can get the players scared of literally nothing, then you're doing your job well. Ultimately, D&D is probably not the best placed for a horror TTRGP, as the hero fantasy can undermine any vulnerability you might be trying to convey.

  • 01:44 - The Different Types of Horror
  • 11:31 - Different Strokes
  • 28:02 - Self-Sustaining Emotion Machine
  • 35:32 - Marrying Horror with TTRPG Nuance
  • 49:43 - Baked In Horror Mechanics

Find Charley on the Negative Modifier podcast:

Find me on:

References:

Patrons:

Intro Music: 'Local Forecast' by Kevin MacLeod
Intermission Music: 'Chill' by Kevin MacLeod
Outro Music: 'Local Forecast - Elevator' by Kevin MacLeod

Transcript

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welcome thinkers to season three episode

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12. today's topic is

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horror

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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and today i'm joined by charlie from the

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negative modifier podcast thank you ever

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so much for joining us today charlie can

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you tell us a little bit about yourself

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hey there happy to be here uh my name is

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charlie i'm the gm handler

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storyteller whatever game we've gotten

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to when this goes up arbitrary

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game master term uh for the negative

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modifier podcast a podcast that despite

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my best efforts

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keeps drifting into horror i've been

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yeah that's kind of the big thing

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involved in the tabletop rpg space i run

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that show and kind of similar to i'm

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sure what your setup is it's editor and

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a variety of other stuff that goes along

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with that but i've been playing tabletop

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rpgs on and off for

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i did the math relatively recently like

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i think

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i hate when people do this but the

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useful kind of descriptor of things uh

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give or take 15 years

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on and off i i like the joke actually

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breaking my shoulder got me back into

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the hobby because

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video games were actually physically

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painful to play because of the movement

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involved i could feel it echoing up the

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bones in my arm which

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is a whole thing i would never wish on

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anyone

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okay that sucks i'm sorry to hear yeah

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but also glad that you it got you back

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into tt rpgs so yes

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blame starfinder for all of this

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okay uh so amazing so thank you so much

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for joining us today and indeed today's

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topic is horror so what does that mean

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to you in the dnd and wider ttrpg

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framework so i think it's a complicated

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topic i think a lot of people interpret

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horror in very specific ways obviously

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you have the big kind of call of cthulhu

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game out there it's the

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it and i guess to a lesser extent but

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probably more so i'm giving you credit

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for you got the world of darkness games

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they're your two kind of

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horror tentpole games which as a result

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means everyone thinks horror and kind of

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rp tabletop rpgs is either personal

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horror a la

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world of darkness or

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cosmic eldritch horror courtesy of call

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of cthulhu and

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both are correct um i think that kind

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there's a fun spot where the two meet in

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the middle where it becomes

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real horror i guess in my perspective

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which is why i play lots of delta green

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which is a game that

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lets you take the personal horror of the

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kind of more evolving

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very story-driven character-focused

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reacting to these horrible things

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happening to them aspects and smash it

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up against the eldritch cosmic horror of

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the unknowable and kind of that

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sense of fear i the advice i actually

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give lots of people are trying to

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understand how to run a horror game is

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go watch the show chernobyl because that

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show does a fantastic job of turning

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radiation which is both a abstract but

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very real

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monster into a

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unsettling invisible presence and kind

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of using that same idea we're just like

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you have the mundane you have scenes of

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people being like yeah they're gonna

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walk across this room why is that

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terrifying well we put this the

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radiation music in the background and

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you know the room is highly radiated and

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that's the terrifying spot and it's the

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i think a lot of people kind of go hard

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in the paint where it's like okay i need

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to have as many terrifying images as

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possible and i think they kind of don't

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let it breathe in the correct way but

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yeah

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horror is that kind of interesting spot

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for me where you can have an adventure

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you can do heroic things but

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you feel uncomfortable doing and i think

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that's kind of one of the more important

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things people

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don't get about the genre when it comes

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to table up top rpgs there's lots of

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debate about whether you can even run a

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horror game and stuff like d d because

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it's so

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action adventure kind of associates like

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no you're powerful that's fine

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what you're up against maybe shouldn't

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be equally powerful but it should be

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unsettling so

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it's been a long kind of roundabout way

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of saying that i think a lot of people

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get hung up on

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trying to run texas chainsaw massacre in

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a game where you can literally throw

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lightning bolts that doesn't work

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there's kind of ways you can get around

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that though like there there's there are

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aspects of horror i think that belong in

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every tabletop rpg setting and game like

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if your players are kind of just

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joyfully entering a cavern that's not

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something called like the doom beast in

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it

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i'm all for having fun kind of jokey

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games but also the doom beast should be

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scary like it should have at least some

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grandiose aspect with your players are

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going ha this thing might kill us

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actually

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yeah horror is is it's a tricky thing to

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do just from like a literary perspective

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uh you know to to do well so i can only

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imagine you know translating that across

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to people who aren't literary trained or

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aren't horror creators

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and they're trying to run a campaign

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that's horror focuses is

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absolutely obviously

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needs a bit of a more focused touch i

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should say rather than just your generic

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fantasy swords and sorcery because

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everybody's a lot more familiar with

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that and it's a i don't know if i'm

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gonna get you know like

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you know hung for this but i would say

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maybe the the stories may be slightly

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simpler slightly easier to tell in like

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quote-unquote generic fantasy versus say

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you know a niche

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horror subgenre and that's that's

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a brilliant segue down though um because

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in in some research for this i was

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googling different types of horrors i'm

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you know personally familiar with like

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body horror and like gore and you know

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like that of the fly

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and then like psychological and

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thrillers and then

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cosmic or lovecraftian and whatnot and

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so i googled that i feel like there's

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quite a few more than that

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and the list that came back i was like

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oh there's wow okay there's like 20 and

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ones i've never heard of before and

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but i have definitely experienced and

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that immediately hit me as like

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yep okay i can see this being

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a very tricky subject that are very

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awkward in a way

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to play effectively well i think it's

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you're touching kind of interesting

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aspect of the kind of horror genre of

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things is that people get very caught up

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in it being one type of thing where i

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think having a literary standpoint

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people get very kind of bog okay i'm

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telling an epic journey i'm telling

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a hero quest i'm telling something very

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specific with horror it's here's your

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tools or crap here's your like build set

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put them together however you want like

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your body horror pairs well with your

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cosmic core that pairs well with kind of

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your atmospheric horror that then pairs

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well with some thriller aspects of it

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it's kind of a

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becomes a topic of pacing and when you

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reveal these things and kind of lesses

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more and an example i guess i'll use is

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one of those things where it's like you

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can fill a room with

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horrible viscera and mutilated corpses

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to your eyes turn blue type of thing

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like it's you can go way too far with

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that or if you kind of really dig down

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okay we're in a room and there's a table

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with a candle on it

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that's it that's all that's a note in

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the room and kind of and then you start

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playing with okay like you're walking

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around this table it's like what would

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we notice nothing at first maybe give me

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some checks at that point eventually

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have a go none of you have shadows by

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the way

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privates i think it's if you my style

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very much close to our podcast has me

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just kind of slowly sliding in little

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moments where it's like here's this very

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too many i have unsettling or mundane

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situations like this is weird but not

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inherently a bad one and then just like

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okay here's the aspect that

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makes this a situation type of thing

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it's kind of slide it in under

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everyone's nose where it's like yeah by

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the way you have no shadows and um

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you're not alone

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what's with us shadows not our shadows

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no

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yeah that

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as soon as you said that like you guys

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don't have shadows i was like oh yeah i

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would love to be role-playing in that

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you know having a character and thinking

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about how they would respond to that is

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a very

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interesting

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setup

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and i'm grinning here cause i'm like oh

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i wanna i wanna play in a game that's

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like that and

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we've had a similar i'm lucky in the

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uh the dm for one of my games we had a

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very similar you know you've found

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you're in an abandoned house uh you know

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in a residential area but you find like

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a secret door that you know descends

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into the basement and there's

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it was more like a cult

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themed and there was no light and it was

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it was more atmospheric there's nothing

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overtly like you don't you know nothing

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overtly

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missing or out of place or uncanny but

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it was still very much like

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my guy is uncomfortable in this room

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and i'm uncomfortable feeling that he's

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uncomfortable in this room and we should

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get out as soon as possible and that is

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i'd like

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i would say i would say

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i'm willing to die on this hill and say

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trickier to achieve from it from a game

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master's perspective than it is to say

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here's this foul dragon and you must

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slay him to to get the horde of gold and

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that's it yeah i'm not gonna say it's

265
00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:59,360
like you have to be more imaginative but

266
00:08:56,959 --> 00:09:00,640
i think you have to kind of

267
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,000
you have to have a certain relationship

268
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,240
with your players i guess like it's one

269
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,080
of those ones where i can make up a

270
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,880
traditionally uncomfortable or kind of

271
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,640
horrifying scene for any random group i

272
00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,480
get into but we do on the podcast is

273
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,480
much more specialized i know my players

274
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,320
pretty well we kind of have uh

275
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,080
we have unwritten trust like okay here's

276
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,000
stuff i won't touch ever because it's

277
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,680
like too far for this game we're playing

278
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,839
for a podcast but like

279
00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:24,959
anything up to that point is fair game

280
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and

281
00:09:24,959 --> 00:09:27,519
i think it's one of those ones where i

282
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think

283
00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:30,399
it's not be trying to launch entity you

284
00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,560
should play games other than d and d but

285
00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:34,880
i think it's a game it's a

286
00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:36,560
horror is a concept in tabletop rpgs you

287
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,360
have to play

288
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:40,959
non-tabletop rpgs that are adventure it

289
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,560
you have to build from other stuff like

290
00:09:40,959 --> 00:09:44,080
there are other tabletop rpgs then the

291
00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:45,839
kind of the pathfinders the dungeons and

292
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,360
dragons even some other stuff i like a

293
00:09:45,839 --> 00:09:48,800
lot that

294
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,320
you can add aspects there but you're

295
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,560
never going to do a good story like star

296
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,080
finder a game that despite its kind of

297
00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:56,480
pluses and minuses

298
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,320
you can run some fantastic horror stuff

299
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,920
in that because it's got the backdrop of

300
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,320
space

301
00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:03,680
and that's inherently unsettling but

302
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,839
i would never make it the kind of main

303
00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:08,160
focus i would add in kind of like alien

304
00:10:05,839 --> 00:10:09,600
or aliens the movie type of

305
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,000
aspects to it's like yeah you're on this

306
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,120
ghost ship and it's full of weird sounds

307
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,839
but you can you got you're kind of

308
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:14,880
you're gonna fight the monster

309
00:10:13,839 --> 00:10:16,240
eventually and they're gonna be

310
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,399
victorious because that's what pushed

311
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,160
the story along so i guess the campaign

312
00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:21,600
i've run in that was that

313
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,360
there was a bunch of starfinder people

314
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,040
investigating an issue started off as a

315
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,959
mining dispute that then turned into

316
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,839
missing minors and then kind of led them

317
00:10:26,959 --> 00:10:30,079
to

318
00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:32,240
a kind of chain of

319
00:10:30,079 --> 00:10:35,120
biological weapon research stations then

320
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,959
led them back to an infiltration ring in

321
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,959
the star finder society type of stuff

322
00:10:36,959 --> 00:10:40,320
where like you had this kind of fun

323
00:10:38,959 --> 00:10:41,760
horror thing in the center where it's

324
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,839
like yeah you're on this

325
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,560
essentially derelict

326
00:10:43,839 --> 00:10:48,160
rogue genetic compound

327
00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:50,000
science facility that's full of a bunch

328
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,399
of lab projects that have gone haywire

329
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,240
and hey you come to a room full of

330
00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,399
remember the last little arc we just did

331
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,160
yeah it's full of the boss from that

332
00:10:56,399 --> 00:11:00,480
drawing tubes you can flush all you have

333
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,760
to fight all of them but

334
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,000
okay i think i said this right there's a

335
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,279
pacing to it that yeah that's the part

336
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,640
you have to learn i guess we're kind of

337
00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:08,079
you have to bring back elements you have

338
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,360
to kind of

339
00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:10,880
you have to tell a story that's kind of

340
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,240
more like the trappings on top of the

341
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,399
story like okay here's what the horror

342
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,399
aspect is you're still telling

343
00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:18,000
a story that has to have a traditional

344
00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:19,839
kind of arc to it you just have to be

345
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,680
getting in the middle and end yeah

346
00:11:19,839 --> 00:11:23,600
because it's like in with some games the

347
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,600
ending is and then the players die

348
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,120
because they met cthulhu and that kills

349
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:30,560
you and

350
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,560
that doesn't work for every group

351
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:36,320
yeah so here's a train of thought that

352
00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:37,920
i've just had and follow me as i jump

353
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,800
take you through the steps of my brain

354
00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,399
um

355
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,720
you're saying they're like

356
00:11:40,399 --> 00:11:44,160
the types of horror and the trappings

357
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,600
and how many and how frequently in the

358
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,959
pace and stuff you would

359
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,040
that's obviously the kind of things you

360
00:11:46,959 --> 00:11:50,480
discuss with your players and

361
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,399
and i think

362
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,680
it's of equal importance to a number of

363
00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:55,839
other things that you would cover in a

364
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:57,200
session zero but you know i think a

365
00:11:55,839 --> 00:11:59,440
heads up to your players if there's

366
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,600
there might be some spooky bits here or

367
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,240
you know you know in which case you know

368
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,240
how much is too much and what's off the

369
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,720
off the record or not loud and stuff

370
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,040
like that and it got me thinking of um

371
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,560
a video game new dlc came out for a

372
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,839
video game that i love called outer

373
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:17,839
wilds

374
00:12:13,839 --> 00:12:19,360
and some dlc came out recently and it's

375
00:12:17,839 --> 00:12:21,120
very much

376
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,399
this atmospheric

377
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,440
loneliness

378
00:12:22,399 --> 00:12:25,519
horror

379
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,839
spooky elements to it and there's a

380
00:12:25,519 --> 00:12:29,360
couple of more active elements to it so

381
00:12:27,839 --> 00:12:31,279
much so that when you when you start the

382
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,720
game there's no spoilers it's the first

383
00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:34,959
thing you see when you actually start

384
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:38,160
the dlc it says do you want to turn on a

385
00:12:34,959 --> 00:12:39,200
mode which is called reduced frights and

386
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,079
it's literally just that like do you

387
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,360
want to turn them it doesn't tell you

388
00:12:40,079 --> 00:12:42,639
anymore don't tell you what that means

389
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,040
doesn't tell you what's going to change

390
00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:47,200
because of it it just says are you a bit

391
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,040
of a scaredy cat i'm that's not there

392
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,720
that's my wordings not theirs

393
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,920
they were a lot better but are you more

394
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,320
susceptible to that kind of stuff do you

395
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,920
want to turn on a reduced frights mode

396
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,519
and that just really made me think

397
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,519
because

398
00:12:57,519 --> 00:13:01,040
i i have a friend a close friend and we

399
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:03,680
played through both the main game and

400
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,120
the dlc together and he was ah man i

401
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:07,040
couldn't i just couldn't

402
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,959
i hated that part cause it was i was so

403
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,000
scared and to me i was like oh no that

404
00:13:08,959 --> 00:13:11,440
was

405
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,120
oh that was fine i wasn't too scared

406
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,959
that was fine and that really that's

407
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,639
such a huge you know the difference

408
00:13:14,959 --> 00:13:19,040
between what people find

409
00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:20,639
unnerving and scary so much so that you

410
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,399
know there's a mode in in some games to

411
00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,000
be like i don't want this to be as scary

412
00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:26,000
because i won't enjoy it as much whereas

413
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,600
to me i was like i've i couldn't even

414
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,360
point out the bits to you that would

415
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,200
need to be toned down

416
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,399
and this isn't me being like oh i'm

417
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,360
never scared by anything because i

418
00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:38,959
absolutely am but even on this small

419
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:41,120
scale you need to have that be like

420
00:13:38,959 --> 00:13:42,320
oh okay it'll be fine i'm only using a

421
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,480
little bit of

422
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,199
body horror here or a little bit of

423
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,199
spooky occult nonsense over there but

424
00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:51,760
someone in your party would be like oh

425
00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:54,079
no that's way too much for me um i have

426
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,839
i'm really unsettled by this so i think

427
00:13:54,079 --> 00:13:58,240
you're absolutely right in that

428
00:13:55,839 --> 00:13:59,199
you know as early in the cycle as you

429
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,360
can

430
00:13:59,199 --> 00:14:02,959
have that discussion

431
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,079
well i think i benefit from kind of a

432
00:14:02,959 --> 00:14:07,279
weird mindset on this one where

433
00:14:06,079 --> 00:14:09,040
i have a love-hate relationship with

434
00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:11,040
horror movies i think a lot of kind of

435
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,519
modern horror movies are

436
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,079
garbage because they rely on jump scares

437
00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:17,120
too much and i hate jump scares like i

438
00:14:16,079 --> 00:14:18,720
i've talked about this in a couple other

439
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,079
podcasts i'll joke about it every once

440
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,519
in a while like

441
00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:23,360
my now wife at one point the first time

442
00:14:21,519 --> 00:14:25,519
she went back to meet my parents

443
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,079
informed me i lived in the belair witch

444
00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:30,240
project and she was right in hindsight

445
00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:32,000
like the town i grew up and when it got

446
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:34,079
dark out it looks like a scene from the

447
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,440
blair witch project and had never

448
00:14:34,079 --> 00:14:37,440
clicked for me on that one but it's one

449
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,800
of those ones where i think

450
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,800
this is gonna sound weird for a second

451
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,480
so follow me on this one i grew up in a

452
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,320
situation where kind of looking back

453
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,600
it's the oh yeah i know like i've choked

454
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,880
a couple times that like the way me and

455
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,360
my friends growing up would play in the

456
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,880
woods like just statistically one of us

457
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,720
should be dead by now i'm not saying it

458
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,120
should be but like the number of times

459
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,680
we got lost for like eight hours and

460
00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,160
wandered way too deep into the woods but

461
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,000
still somehow came back based on not

462
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,279
horror movie logic but just statistics

463
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,079
it's like yeah

464
00:15:03,279 --> 00:15:07,920
someone should still be out there

465
00:15:06,079 --> 00:15:09,680
and growing up in that it kind of

466
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,519
teaches you this whole idea and if you

467
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,680
live in a place lucky enough you can go

468
00:15:11,519 --> 00:15:15,440
deep into the woods or kind of way out

469
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,120
into nature where kind of

470
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,040
humanity and culture fades into the

471
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,600
background you're just kind of out there

472
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,560
you learn subconsciously what i think

473
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,920
kind of

474
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,680
i love cosmic core i love the

475
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,279
atmospheric aspect of i love kind of the

476
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,160
fact that like there's nothing you can

477
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:31,199
do it's not you versus something it's

478
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,720
something

479
00:15:31,199 --> 00:15:36,240
so much larger than you that you can

480
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,079
only grasp its comprehension and

481
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,160
i think kind of being lost deep in

482
00:15:38,079 --> 00:15:41,279
nature is the closest humans can get in

483
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,560
some ways

484
00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:43,759
easily to that words like there's no

485
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,199
jump scare it's like yeah they'll hear

486
00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:46,959
the occasional snap of something maybe

487
00:15:45,199 --> 00:15:49,120
you'll see something weird but it's

488
00:15:46,959 --> 00:15:50,720
about the feeling it's about kind of how

489
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,720
alone you are out there it's the fact

490
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,519
that like something could happen

491
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,920
and

492
00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:57,279
maybe no one would know like

493
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,800
how much stuff has happened weird out

494
00:15:57,279 --> 00:16:00,720
there like you come across like the

495
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,800
remains of an old trailer or something

496
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,720
or kind of an old campsite how long was

497
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,079
this here is someone's lyric these

498
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,320
questions you're never gonna get answers

499
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:09,600
to that are part of what make that

500
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,440
uncomfortable and then you have jump

501
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,360
scares where it's like yes

502
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,480
spring something out of a wall at your

503
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,279
players and yeah it's gonna be

504
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,040
terrifying because surprise

505
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:20,480
but i try and avoid that as much as i

506
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,000
can or kind of what it is that it's like

507
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,519
no no we built up to this like there's

508
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,600
been plenty of hints

509
00:16:23,519 --> 00:16:27,440
there's something here and the players

510
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,800
are looking for techno

511
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,759
yes there's something bad in the room

512
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,759
with you

513
00:16:29,759 --> 00:16:34,240
i've been very upfront about this fact

514
00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:38,399
you haven't found it yet why haven't we

515
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:41,360
found it yes why haven't you found it

516
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:43,279
i i agree on the jump scares i hate them

517
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,079
on two parts one because they scare me

518
00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:46,800
um

519
00:16:44,079 --> 00:16:48,959
full disclosure uh secondly because i do

520
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,480
think they can be cheap and i think as

521
00:16:48,959 --> 00:16:53,120
you said a lot of modern horror films

522
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:55,199
use them in a cheap way yeah which is i

523
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,040
from an artistic point of view i i don't

524
00:16:55,199 --> 00:16:58,800
agree with that i'd god i couldn't sound

525
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,920
more like a

526
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,759
an elitist if i tried but uh i do try

527
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,760
put the effort in at least to my own

528
00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:07,839
campaigns i'm sure some some of my

529
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:10,959
players would attest to that but no i i

530
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,959
absolutely agree and it's

531
00:17:10,959 --> 00:17:14,959
again like one of those things is

532
00:17:12,959 --> 00:17:16,400
that that must be i i've not had this

533
00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:17,760
discussion you know hands up i haven't

534
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,799
had a

535
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,559
super

536
00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:21,839
new age session zero with my current

537
00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:23,760
game a because it's been going on for

538
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,839
like two and a half years and b because

539
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,240
i knew the guys quite well going into it

540
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:29,200
so there was less of a need for that but

541
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,880
i

542
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,240
is that not how do you have that

543
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,919
discussion and be like there's going to

544
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,039
be a jump scare

545
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:39,440
in maybe 20 sessions time is that

546
00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:40,559
okay i like who who's planned that far

547
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,720
ahead

548
00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:44,799
maybe i'll maybe i'll i just fly by the

549
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,559
seat of my pants too much or maybe i'm

550
00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:48,640
my scale is way off but how how does

551
00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:50,799
that conversation come about how does

552
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,480
that conversation happen when you talk

553
00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:54,960
to someone that does plan that insanely

554
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,640
far in the advance with some things like

555
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,240
i i guess like the way we do campaigns

556
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,760
on negative modifiers where i like to do

557
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,120
campaigns is that i like reoccurring

558
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,559
elements so

559
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,240
i will have

560
00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:05,520
maybe not the entire thing written but a

561
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,679
pretty

562
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,039
big moment to big moment outline figured

563
00:18:07,679 --> 00:18:11,120
out before we even start playing where

564
00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:12,880
it's like okay yeah here's when

565
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,000
some stuff will happen and like it's me

566
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,200
being like okay this might need to start

567
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,720
ramping up certain aspects of this and

568
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,080
so i guess kaiju's example of what we

569
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,880
play a lot about negative monitor we

570
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:27,679
play lots of delta green delta green is

571
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:29,760
one of those rare tabletop rpgs where

572
00:18:27,679 --> 00:18:31,440
if you're under 13 you just shouldn't

573
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,160
play delta green honestly if you're

574
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,880
under 18 you probably shouldn't play

575
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,799
delta green in some ways like just it's

576
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,640
by the inherent nature of what that game

577
00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:41,600
is deliberately about it's either

578
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,360
probably

579
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,840
not going to be as interesting or

580
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:47,440
playing a pg version of that game it's

581
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,960
just not going to work like it's that

582
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,240
weird mix of

583
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,760
csi

584
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,520
horror

585
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,440
investigatory corruption like there's

586
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,799
lots of moving parts that

587
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,640
there's no way to talk about a

588
00:18:56,799 --> 00:19:00,640
kid-friendly way i think and yeah you

589
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,320
could definitely do it but

590
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840
i think kind of going into a game in a

591
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,039
setting with the expectation of no no

592
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,960
we're playing a 13 plus a 16 plus a more

593
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,799
rated game for lack for a better phrase

594
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,280
again we're playing a horror game your

595
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:15,120
characters are aware they're in at least

596
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,400
horror-like situations they got to do

597
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:18,400
dumb stuff because it's how horror

598
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,600
movies work that's how horror games work

599
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,640
and

600
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,000
it was kind of like an unwritten

601
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,000
contract i guess at that point i think

602
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,919
like it's this is why there are stuff i

603
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,280
will do definitely to my own groups and

604
00:19:25,919 --> 00:19:29,120
on the podcast and with my personal

605
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,120
players i play with a lot that i would

606
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,160
never do in a pickup game that i'd stick

607
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,960
no i could

608
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,640
go listen to i will happily run the

609
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,799
written scenario for delta green last

610
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,480
things last for almost anyone that asks

611
00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:41,840
because hey i think that's a great

612
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,919
scenario freaking people into the game

613
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,080
and b i like delta green a lot i'll

614
00:19:43,919 --> 00:19:47,520
happily introduce people to the game but

615
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,080
the version of that we played on the

616
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,559
podcast is dramatically different than

617
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,960
the version of that i will play in real

618
00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:56,960
life it's like now um

619
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,799
i know none of my players have problems

620
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,720
with heart attacks so i won't like on

621
00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:02,080
the podcast yeah i played up the fact

622
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,320
that one of the characters died of a

623
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,480
very severe heart attack and person's

624
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,440
like yeah the guy died

625
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,600
i've got heart attack it was bad hmm

626
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,840
tragic yeah moving on as quickly as

627
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,760
possible

628
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,280
yeah i need to

629
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,480
see that i i

630
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,320
love

631
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,880
this show and this podcast for these

632
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:26,159
moments of when it makes me go that has

633
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,520
made me think because it's so easy even

634
00:20:26,159 --> 00:20:29,039
like i'm eating my own words because i

635
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,960
said a second ago like oh i know my

636
00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:34,320
players and but i don't know

637
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:37,280
their family histories right and it

638
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,360
would be so easy for me to accidentally

639
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,200
bring in something like that and i know

640
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,480
they're all like got the big boy pants

641
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,320
on and they can take some horror

642
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,679
understanding but it'll be so easy for

643
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,640
me to make that misstep because i assume

644
00:20:47,679 --> 00:20:50,320
that they

645
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,720
they didn't and it is i mean here's a

646
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:55,200
really really good similar-ish example

647
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,640
of how easy that mistake is to make um

648
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,039
and literally i've been invited to an

649
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,240
in-person game through for a friend and

650
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:01,760
he was like we're looking for one more

651
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,280
i've got my mates playing you'd be a

652
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,039
great addition do you want to come along

653
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,000
yeah great i love meeting new people i

654
00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:09,200
love dnd perfect and i was uh

655
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,960
i was you know i wanted to make a good

656
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,039
impressions i was there very early

657
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,400
so it was quite awkward because the the

658
00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:15,919
the friend of a friend of who sat in

659
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,600
between us wasn't there so i had to kind

660
00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:19,600
of you know we didn't have that social

661
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,400
lubricant of history

662
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,159
if we will yeah yeah um

663
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,280
and then a bunch of other guys turned up

664
00:21:24,159 --> 00:21:27,520
and on there trying to chat away and i

665
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,440
sort of wanted a wanted a tattoo on his

666
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,640
uh on his bicep of a bicycle and i was

667
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,240
like oh you know

668
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,640
are you into you into bikes are you and

669
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,559
he was ah not really but my my brother

670
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,240
who passed away recently was was and

671
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:40,480
this is kind of you know

672
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,760
a nod to him and i was like oh

673
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,760
[ __ ] what a faux pas

674
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,360
well done first interaction with him and

675
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,640
i've brought up that memory great well

676
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,480
done uh

677
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,559
obviously we were out having a few beers

678
00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,960
last night it's all you know hunky-dory

679
00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:02,320
but it it it always makes me i always

680
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,240
think about that moment and it's a

681
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,640
classic example of like

682
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,840
had i be dming for him and like i could

683
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,280
have brought up something awkward like

684
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,600
that and you and you never know so i

685
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,799
think even even if my ultimately what

686
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,559
i'm getting is even if you sit

687
00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:16,799
arrogantly like i do and say oh i know

688
00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:18,559
my players everything will be fine it

689
00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:20,000
might well not be here

690
00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,919
yeah

691
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,440
no and i think it's it's just kind of an

692
00:22:21,919 --> 00:22:25,039
experience thing at that point it's one

693
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,480
of the few times where

694
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:28,720
the advice i give everyone is like just

695
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,159
play lots of games play as many games as

696
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,720
you can get like

697
00:22:30,159 --> 00:22:34,480
gm and play in just as many groups as

698
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,840
you possibly can get in type of thing

699
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,600
even if it's not a story you necessarily

700
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,600
care that much about you will learn

701
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,280
something from spending time with a

702
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,960
group of people that

703
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080
maybe you don't know super well or maybe

704
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,840
it's a kind of you would never think to

705
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,000
go about that and

706
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,760
like that's the it's the one facet where

707
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,720
i think just kind of time with the hobby

708
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,320
does equal some skill it's like no no

709
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,320
just the more you've kind of stumbled

710
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,640
into and dealt with and kind of gotten

711
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,480
your hands on and gotten dirty with

712
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,000
the more kind of cognizant you are of it

713
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,520
the kind of the more

714
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,559
you can work towards a type of thing

715
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,919
like it's

716
00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:07,200
there's also kind of ways of bringing up

717
00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:09,360
certain topics without bringing up

718
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,360
certain topics like there's

719
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:13,200
yeah you kind of learn the tricks of how

720
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,039
to deal with sensitive information and

721
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,240
kind of uncomfortable stuff and

722
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:17,760
important when i think that's where a

723
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,520
lot of people run into problems with

724
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,640
horror as a whole where

725
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,480
it's

726
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,400
i'm not gonna say it's advanced game

727
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,520
mastering but it's not

728
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,200
entry level necessarily but like also

729
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,880
anyone can play call of cthulhu but i'd

730
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,400
also say the call of cthulhu stuff is

731
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,480
not going to kind of

732
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,640
blunder you into especially running the

733
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,400
kind of written stuff with one or two

734
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,919
exceptions you're not going to stumble

735
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,679
into kind of red flag territory for

736
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:43,760
someone by accident it's pretty

737
00:23:41,679 --> 00:23:46,240
straightforward manversus monster

738
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,000
stories with cosmic elements it's not as

739
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,200
personalized i guess at that point which

740
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,679
is good

741
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,480
yeah yeah i've got that's made me think

742
00:23:51,679 --> 00:23:56,400
i've got an arc coming up that

743
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,080
i won't go into detail for the reasons

744
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,679
i'm about to say but that

745
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,440
i was like this bit will be really

746
00:23:59,679 --> 00:24:02,960
interesting and exciting but now i'm

747
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,640
having second thoughts about you know

748
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,159
i'm probably

749
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,840
gonna drop the questions with my guys

750
00:24:06,159 --> 00:24:10,080
and just say i'm thinking of something

751
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,919
that might deal at one point

752
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,279
with this element

753
00:24:11,919 --> 00:24:15,600
is that okay and that's what i'm gonna

754
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:17,600
say and that's that should be enough to

755
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,960
then give me the green light so yeah

756
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,080
i'm you know

757
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,440
i don't want anyone to get the wrong

758
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,760
impression i'm not talking about like

759
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,679
doing some horrible grotesque

760
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,640
thing it it really is a light touch but

761
00:24:25,679 --> 00:24:27,919
it's

762
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,360
that the whole point of the discussion

763
00:24:27,919 --> 00:24:31,279
we're having is that

764
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:32,640
horror means a lot of different things

765
00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:34,640
to a lot of different people and it is

766
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,080
very easy to

767
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,400
oh let me let me put it in another way

768
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,480
it's very hard sometimes to have that

769
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,799
empathy with

770
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,400
why people find things unsettling or

771
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:46,000
whatnot and even as i said there's in

772
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,120
outer wilds this video game there's a

773
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,679
bit with

774
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,679
uh i don't want to spoil it there's just

775
00:24:49,679 --> 00:24:52,960
a bit where there's some large

776
00:24:51,679 --> 00:24:54,799
creatures that

777
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,919
are not friendly

778
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:57,919
and

779
00:24:55,919 --> 00:24:59,520
yeah my my friend was like oh i hated

780
00:24:57,919 --> 00:25:01,679
that bit couldn't you know i had to look

781
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,440
away i had to you know i'd take a break

782
00:25:01,679 --> 00:25:05,440
and i was just there happy as larry just

783
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,000
you know came at it as a puzzle to to

784
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,960
solve a challenge to to overcome

785
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,840
and even that minor you know small part

786
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,440
of a

787
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,559
small game

788
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,320
had such

789
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:18,799
vastly different things it's it's very

790
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:21,840
easy to underestimate how

791
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:22,880
something can impact somebody yeah no i

792
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,159
if you got if you want to post a

793
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,840
negative modifier you'll realize that

794
00:25:24,159 --> 00:25:28,240
every single one of our episodes starts

795
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,880
off with a content warning

796
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,240
a little bit tailored to the game and

797
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,559
that's because it's one of those ones

798
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,000
where that even this kind of two thought

799
00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:37,760
process maybe i guess there's three

800
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,200
there's the third campus just doesn't

801
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,640
give a rat's ass and kind of it's like

802
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,679
i'm gonna do whatever the hell i want

803
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,960
and

804
00:25:41,679 --> 00:25:44,559
i don't care if you're upset by this

805
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,720
whatever and they're [ __ ] and then

806
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,559
there's my camp where it's like

807
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,240
i think like it's the

808
00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:52,159
telling stories and playing with

809
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,159
concepts that make people uncomfortable

810
00:25:52,159 --> 00:25:56,000
is important to kind of

811
00:25:54,159 --> 00:25:56,720
analyzing that part of being human like

812
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,559
we

813
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320
a negative modifier we pick games that

814
00:25:58,559 --> 00:26:02,400
kind of inherently deal with

815
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,000
uncomfortable topics because

816
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,440
those are the stories i like to run but

817
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,799
also it's like they're just again going

818
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,720
back to now those nuanced ways of

819
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:10,640
talking about it there's you don't have

820
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,080
to be as abrupt or kind of as explicit

821
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,919
about stuff it's like no there's plenty

822
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,200
of implied that

823
00:26:13,919 --> 00:26:18,240
is so much worse than what you could

824
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,320
ever say actually but also because it's

825
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,159
implied people can mentally scale how

826
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,200
comfortable they are to it and there's

827
00:26:22,159 --> 00:26:25,520
the camp that's like i'm not gonna touch

828
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,360
anything controversial ever because

829
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,200
i don't want to and i respect that camp

830
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,799
i think it's yes

831
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,480
we live in a world where the whole have

832
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:34,799
you talked about safety tools at all on

833
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,320
the podcast before or not really uh we

834
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:38,960
as as i mentioned earlier on when i when

835
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,200
i was alluding to like modern session

836
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,039
zero that we've only ever talked about

837
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,039
it in a light touch so i'm more than you

838
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,480
know please yeah and that this is not

839
00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,880
the time or place to go into it because

840
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,720
i'm not the timer i am not the person to

841
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,480
go into great depth about safety tools

842
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,039
there are people far more knowledgeable

843
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,640
in this topic than i am but i think it's

844
00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:58,880
even if you're not playing with safety

845
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,880
tools you should still kind of have the

846
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,400
ideas of safety tools in the back of

847
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,200
your brain like it's one of those ones

848
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,480
where

849
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,480
i've definitely joked several times

850
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,840
where it's like if you can find a way as

851
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,480
if i'm playing in your game to make me

852
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,799
uncomfortable or like actually upset

853
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,080
power to you no one's ever done it and

854
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,760
like i would be interested to take that

855
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,919
ride with you but i suspect if you can

856
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,520
take that ride with me it will make

857
00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:21,760
everyone at the rest of the table

858
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,200
uncomfortable because i am a

859
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,880
person that's kind of is willing to go

860
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,279
to those dark places that enjoys like

861
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,880
okay yeah no this is terrible but like

862
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:30,480
what were you trying to say with this

863
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,320
terribleness like

864
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,760
what about being human or kind of about

865
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,520
kind of the nature of your story ties

866
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,120
back it's oh it's a cheap thrill that's

867
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,559
shitty

868
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,000
like don't don't bring up messed up

869
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:41,520
stuff just to bring up messed up stuff

870
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,120
like it has to be

871
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,480
narratively and kind of important what

872
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,679
you're doing like anyone can just full

873
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,080
of room of corpses it's like why the

874
00:27:45,679 --> 00:27:49,520
corpse is there it's the corpse room

875
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,560
right

876
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,790
why are the corpses there

877
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,790
[Music]

878
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:03,919
[Music]

879
00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:06,240
so the chapter that i'm doing at the

880
00:28:03,919 --> 00:28:08,080
moment is that has an otherworldly uh i

881
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,960
guess cosmic horror element to it far

882
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,039
realm

883
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,840
you know creatures from

884
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:15,279
far realm space between spaces as being

885
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,760
summoned in and blah blah blah but the

886
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:20,159
reason i set it up i'm quite proud of my

887
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,720
setup so they go to like a high high

888
00:28:20,159 --> 00:28:25,039
like arcano technological magical city

889
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,799
floating up in the sky and so that the

890
00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:28,880
first half is like

891
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:30,240
here's how you know there's brooms that

892
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,760
are just sweeping the streets and

893
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,840
there's like holographic displays to

894
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,600
work out you know a map for the city and

895
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,919
there's it's full of you know it's like

896
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,640
parisian opulence of

897
00:28:37,919 --> 00:28:42,000
you know cafes and yeah bistros and all

898
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,559
this kind of stuff and then some

899
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,399
cataclysmic event happens that tears you

900
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,240
know there's cracks

901
00:28:46,399 --> 00:28:49,840
get torn through the city and purple

902
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,279
light is coming out and there's you know

903
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,279
creatures that are just

904
00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:55,919
tearing this you know

905
00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:58,559
chaos throughout the streets and i

906
00:28:55,919 --> 00:29:00,799
wanted that juxtaposition of like his

907
00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:02,960
when you see it nice and lovely the

908
00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:05,200
players go somewhere when they come back

909
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,080
it's now this horrible you know horrible

910
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,520
nightmare escape of thing and i i wanted

911
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,919
that was like

912
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,760
i saw really really layered on the like

913
00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:15,279
the parisian there's birds singing and

914
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,880
there's mutant there's like music in the

915
00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,720
air and that you know as leaves fall off

916
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,159
the tree they disappear and reappear

917
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,600
back on the tree

918
00:29:20,159 --> 00:29:24,159
and the next time they come back i'm

919
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,799
like there's bodies in the streets and

920
00:29:24,159 --> 00:29:29,200
there's you know winged gargoyle like

921
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:31,279
creatures just picking you know plucking

922
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,600
people off the streets and throwing them

923
00:29:31,279 --> 00:29:35,600
you know 50 foot in the air and

924
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,880
you you hear a dull thud and and that

925
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,880
kind of stuff

926
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,039
to be juxtaposed against where they last

927
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,919
time they saw it to really hammer home

928
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:43,840
that

929
00:29:41,919 --> 00:29:46,640
that difference there so that's my

930
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,080
excuse for my the current kind of yeah i

931
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,000
think that's that's plenty enough i

932
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,159
think it's when you have like how do i

933
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,039
make sure this lich is evil uh

934
00:29:52,159 --> 00:29:56,320
this room is full of victims

935
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,080
okay

936
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,840
yeah you walk in then he's cutting off

937
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,760
somebody's head okay

938
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,760
cool what you doing with that head

939
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,039
yeah yeah yeah i know what you mean that

940
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,240
is so

941
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:10,000
yeah he

942
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,360
again an easy way to to do it but

943
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,640
because it's easy it means that there's

944
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,799
less kind of

945
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,039
impact i suppose like to me what i'm

946
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,720
saying is also like you can totally have

947
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:20,640
that lich have a predilection for

948
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,399
cutting off heads but like you should

949
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,480
have established on multiple points

950
00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:26,159
prior to this like oh the lich came

951
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,399
through how do you know no one has a

952
00:30:26,159 --> 00:30:30,559
head anymore um

953
00:30:28,399 --> 00:30:32,320
yeah that's such that's

954
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:33,520
again again another episode of reason

955
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,919
why i love the podcast is because it

956
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,520
makes me we're like improv here and and

957
00:30:35,919 --> 00:30:39,760
once you've set that precedent that

958
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,799
you've just described the next time the

959
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,720
players encounter someone that's missing

960
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:46,720
ahead for whatever reason

961
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,039
they're immediately going to go

962
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,720
[ __ ] is is that the lich is the lich

963
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:52,799
here do we need to be

964
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,840
and even if it's something as

965
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:58,399
benign is the wrong word but

966
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,640
a workplace accident is that

967
00:30:58,399 --> 00:31:02,720
you know you know rather than some evil

968
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,960
menace has done it no so it's actually

969
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,880
interesting to bring that up so on

970
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,960
if my once goes up it may still be or

971
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,799
maybe over at this point the time of

972
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,080
recording this the campaign we're

973
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:13,919
involved in right now on negative

974
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,240
modifier is something called hawthorne's

975
00:31:13,919 --> 00:31:17,600
crusade and

976
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,080
this idea what you're talking about kind

977
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,760
of planting this idea that

978
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,519
multiple times comes up correct or not

979
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,440
is something i do constantly in

980
00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:28,399
hawthorne i'm not going to reveal why

981
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,480
hawthorne's crusade is called

982
00:31:28,399 --> 00:31:32,880
hawthorne's crusader kind of

983
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,480
what this thing is but there's a theme

984
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,559
looking back and kind of a concept

985
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,080
looking back that

986
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:39,360
i know it because i'm the one running it

987
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,679
and kind of thing and my players have

988
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,919
kind of started to pick up on it or

989
00:31:41,679 --> 00:31:45,679
they're deep enough that they understand

990
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:47,600
exactly what was going on the entire

991
00:31:45,679 --> 00:31:49,039
time but

992
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,120
the way the campaign is kind of paced

993
00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:52,880
and set up there are

994
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,760
there's a web and they're making a web

995
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,440
and

996
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,559
it's not clear how many of the nodes

997
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,640
they've connected to the web are

998
00:31:56,559 --> 00:32:00,720
actually part of the web or just a

999
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,960
separate web altogether but it doesn't

1000
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,960
matter because they keep establish this

1001
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,640
it's like no no this thing keeps showing

1002
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,480
up every time these things happen so

1003
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,039
it's obviously connected

1004
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,039
is it

1005
00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:13,919
and i'm not telling them is it it's um

1006
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,279
in my brain i'm going like that's

1007
00:32:13,919 --> 00:32:17,120
something that's like oh you picked up

1008
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:18,720
on that wrong but yeah we're gonna go

1009
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,080
with that because

1010
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,760
i get to have players that are actively

1011
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,440
paranoid on certain topics and i'm not

1012
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,039
lying to them it's what their characters

1013
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,720
have decided like i think that's

1014
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:29,679
okay i've go back to a topic we touched

1015
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,559
on this whole idea of kind of

1016
00:32:29,679 --> 00:32:34,080
relationship between player and person

1017
00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:35,600
running the game

1018
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,679
when it comes to certain horror games

1019
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,600
delta green's definitely one of these

1020
00:32:37,679 --> 00:32:41,360
you have to be willing to lie to your

1021
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,640
players a little bit and i don't mean

1022
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,120
like

1023
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,720
lie about dice or like you die now

1024
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,960
because i say that's that don't do that

1025
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,240
that's that's shitty type of thing like

1026
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,919
fudge dice if you want i'm not gonna

1027
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,360
tell you what to do but like

1028
00:32:51,919 --> 00:32:55,039
don't be that guy that like runs an

1029
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,000
impossible game because you want the

1030
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:59,519
monsters to win yeah no i agree yeah

1031
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,960
it's okay to give them false information

1032
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:02,799
though or kind of like if they start

1033
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,960
going down a mental path that's not what

1034
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:06,720
you wrote or not with the actual thing

1035
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,559
it's like yeah no totally that and

1036
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,840
that's like oh we thought this you

1037
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:11,840
thought wrong

1038
00:33:12,399 --> 00:33:15,919
i loved i love i had a an idea when you

1039
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:18,320
were talking about their players and

1040
00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:19,440
their paranoia at certain elements and

1041
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,360
that

1042
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,679
that works because it's like a

1043
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,399
self-sustaining

1044
00:33:23,679 --> 00:33:28,640
fear cycle and and the players are

1045
00:33:26,399 --> 00:33:30,880
generating the emotions themselves it's

1046
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,039
one thing to have the dm say you enter

1047
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,279
into a room and there's spider webs and

1048
00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:36,720
there's no shadows and there's the heads

1049
00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:38,399
have been decapitated and then it's

1050
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,720
another thing entirely for the players

1051
00:33:38,399 --> 00:33:42,960
to step into a room and go

1052
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,720
i i'm scared because of stuff that's

1053
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,880
happened in the past and the unknown of

1054
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,279
the future and i'm already scared at

1055
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,039
just just from the premise and that is a

1056
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:52,240
you know a completely different thing

1057
00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:55,360
and i think once you hit that then

1058
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,640
you're you're really hitting the

1059
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,320
you know you've done you've done the

1060
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,840
work and it's it's it's a beautiful

1061
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,159
thing to watch i think

1062
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:05,600
not people be scared but to have players

1063
00:34:02,159 --> 00:34:07,360
just be so engaged and and aware of

1064
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,000
connotations and

1065
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,960
implications as you said that it's the

1066
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,879
self-sustaining emotion machine

1067
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,200
trademark because that sounds like a

1068
00:34:14,879 --> 00:34:18,800
cool tagline there yeah and i think it's

1069
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,879
like there's a the second arc of

1070
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,280
hawthorne's crusade i'm not sure what

1071
00:34:20,879 --> 00:34:26,800
episode is but early on the players

1072
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,639
figure out jokingly exactly what's going

1073
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,079
on if they say that's an option like oh

1074
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:32,879
it can't possibly that would be stupid

1075
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:33,760
if it was that and i'm like no it's that

1076
00:34:32,879 --> 00:34:35,280
and when we got through it being

1077
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,280
realized like oh [ __ ] we were right all

1078
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,800
along god damn it

1079
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,079
this is so much worse because we were

1080
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,560
right we were like i can't be that

1081
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:44,639
that'd be too ridiculous

1082
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,560
and i'm sitting there like no you're

1083
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:48,079
right not to tell you you're right

1084
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,240
because that's not how this works but

1085
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:51,679
like when we get there like like you

1086
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:53,520
have this in the back of your brain like

1087
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:55,839
they kept going back like it can't

1088
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,240
possibly be that it'd be so obvious if

1089
00:34:55,839 --> 00:35:00,720
it was that it was totally that

1090
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,680
you underestimate my obviousness it was

1091
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,040
one of those things where it's like it

1092
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,800
was

1093
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,040
i was never trying to make it not

1094
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,640
obvious but it's one of those ones where

1095
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,240
because of how delta green is how delta

1096
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,760
queen works it's like it can't be that

1097
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,280
simple it's always

1098
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,240
something more it's like oh i guess it

1099
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,880
was that simple oh god being that simple

1100
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:21,200
is terrible yeah yeah oh god it really

1101
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,880
is very simple you know there it is you

1102
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,599
know sort of green is people like it

1103
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,960
just is that yeah

1104
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:29,200
thank you for bringing that game up

1105
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,200
again because here's a topic that i want

1106
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,200
to go on to and i need a bit i need your

1107
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,960
assistance to start so obviously with

1108
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,320
dnd something i'm most familiar with

1109
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,920
there are

1110
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,599
you know it's this random quote-unquote

1111
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,599
random elements with the dice rolling

1112
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:44,079
and so on and so on now are the other

1113
00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:45,680
ttrpgs you mentioned today are they do

1114
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,680
they share that you know is there always

1115
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,280
this element of rolling a dice or

1116
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,280
flipping a coin or

1117
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,160
you know abilities or powers and stuff

1118
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,760
like that is that and everything you've

1119
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,359
mentioned today is that is that oh yeah

1120
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,400
yeah they all involve dice for the most

1121
00:35:55,359 --> 00:36:01,839
part or they have some similar system um

1122
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,839
i will say kind of

1123
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,680
dice rolls in

1124
00:36:05,839 --> 00:36:08,480
adventure driven games kind of your uh

1125
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,800
your

1126
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,119
your star finder your pathfinder your

1127
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,119
dungeons and dragons you're we're going

1128
00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:17,760
on a quest to do the thing to fight the

1129
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:20,079
monsters type of stuff

1130
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,240
dice rolls are very kind of binary you

1131
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:24,160
pass you fail

1132
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:25,839
you do the thing you don't do the thing

1133
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,839
i'm not saying other games don't do that

1134
00:36:25,839 --> 00:36:29,280
but so like let's use delta green for an

1135
00:36:27,839 --> 00:36:30,560
example so

1136
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,599
most games that people will be familiar

1137
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,839
with are

1138
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:35,040
um d20 based yeah trying to get above a

1139
00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:37,040
certain number

1140
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,480
call of cthulhu delta green a lot of my

1141
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,040
favorite games honestly are based on

1142
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,880
percentile dice systems where you have

1143
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,640
your character is x good at things

1144
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,920
you're trying to roll below that

1145
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,920
percentile dice if your character is 70

1146
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,000
good at fighting people with their fists

1147
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:55,440
they will 70 of the time be successful

1148
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:57,119
at that and where

1149
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,560
i think kind of different like this is

1150
00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:00,720
kind of where the

1151
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,040
adventure versus mystery game kind of

1152
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:05,760
really diverges in a mystery game your

1153
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,040
players have to find the clues they have

1154
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,520
to solve the mystery they have to keep

1155
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,599
going forward so you can't lock

1156
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,960
everything behind

1157
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:14,320
success and failure you can't get into

1158
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,960
the use that you get used to the idea of

1159
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,920
like cascading failure and

1160
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,040
it's one of those things where kind of

1161
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:24,640
like i know yeah if my players wind up

1162
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,320
in this bar they're going to find x

1163
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,400
they have to for the story to work type

1164
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,720
of thing how they go about that and how

1165
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,079
successful they are in that that's dice

1166
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:34,320
driven

1167
00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:36,560
and kind of and that's where and i think

1168
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,320
apothem sits under a good job of kind of

1169
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,880
highlighting this is that we have some

1170
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,160
moments that like i set them up as like

1171
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,119
yeah this is gonna be like a pivotal

1172
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,640
moment for the characters in the arc and

1173
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:48,800
because of dice rolls because of how the

1174
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,040
mechanics kind of play out in that kind

1175
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,640
of five-minute span it goes from being

1176
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,800
being like this okay yeah this is a big

1177
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,000
moment reveal happened

1178
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,599
cut to

1179
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,520
two characters on the floor having

1180
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:01,440
nervous breakdowns once throwing up in a

1181
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,839
trash can because the dice rolls went

1182
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,920
terribly for them and i could adds to it

1183
00:38:03,839 --> 00:38:07,599
at that point i guess it's not like it's

1184
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,280
you you have a moment you have a bad

1185
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:11,040
moment you have this kind of big aha

1186
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,200
moment the players are reacting to it

1187
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,400
versus kind of grappling with it and

1188
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,160
that's kind of the way these games work

1189
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,599
it's like okay yeah here's what you

1190
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,520
learned

1191
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:21,599
roll some dice to tell me how you react

1192
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,000
okay two of you failed sand tests okay

1193
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:25,200
cool how bad did you fail those sanity

1194
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,440
tests okay

1195
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,079
really badly in one of your cases give

1196
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:33,280
me a constitution check why just give it

1197
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:35,040
to me okay now give me a dex check why

1198
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,240
you successfully grab a trash can to

1199
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,040
throw up and do while you're having your

1200
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,640
nervous breakdown

1201
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,839
[Laughter]

1202
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,079
and you can kind of go into this

1203
00:38:39,839 --> 00:38:43,520
beautiful flowchart yeah i think like

1204
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:45,440
one of the funniest moments in the

1205
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,520
podcast so far is actually in the first

1206
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,320
season of delta green up j-cell files

1207
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,320
where we were very focused on the

1208
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,680
skipping out on work the kind of the

1209
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,359
the hey you're

1210
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,320
ditching your day job to go do delta

1211
00:38:55,359 --> 00:38:58,240
green stuff and kind of the

1212
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,760
ramifications of that and

1213
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:02,079
one of the funniest moments was a

1214
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,079
character was pretending to be sick to

1215
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:06,480
get out of work type of thing and they

1216
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:08,720
low-grade poisoned themselves and the

1217
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,079
dice rolls kept betraying them so it

1218
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:11,920
went from like oh yeah you were

1219
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:14,720
pretending to be sick to know you

1220
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:17,280
actually poisoned yourself and threw up

1221
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:20,079
all over your boss and like it is this

1222
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,280
very real moment of like oh god i just

1223
00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:23,359
took this thing that will make me feel

1224
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,760
ill and give me a legitimate excuse to i

1225
00:39:23,359 --> 00:39:27,520
might get fired because i projectile

1226
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,040
vomited all over my bosses he was coming

1227
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,960
to talk to me about how i keep getting

1228
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,040
sick and taking sick time

1229
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,720
what it's like yeah

1230
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,880
comedic but also like because it's a

1231
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:39,280
real fear a normal person might have

1232
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,040
yeah horrifying

1233
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,200
i think you read my mind a little bit

1234
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,200
because the reason why i asked that

1235
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,640
question um

1236
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,800
is i wanted to ask about as i said my

1237
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,200
during my research i was on wikipedia

1238
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,480
looking at all these types of

1239
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,440
horror and you've got the main ones that

1240
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,200
you've mentioned already but then you've

1241
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,839
also got like

1242
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,119
it's all literary based right on books

1243
00:39:59,839 --> 00:40:02,880
and films

1244
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:05,280
and it's all there's like there's like a

1245
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,880
weird weird horror and then there's new

1246
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,280
weird which is like the 21st century

1247
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,440
version yeah yeah they're all sub sub

1248
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,280
sub genres and and mishmash and all this

1249
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,440
other like cult and then classic hot red

1250
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,800
and then like werewolf has its own sub

1251
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,200
genre for like

1252
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,040
metamorphosis horror blah blah blah what

1253
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,520
i'm getting is there's loads of stuff

1254
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,760
that i've never even begun to understand

1255
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,280
and then it made me think like

1256
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,240
because it's so

1257
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,400
vast and nuanced and layered and

1258
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:35,440
you know mired in subgenres how does

1259
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:38,560
that translate to running a game at a

1260
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:41,359
table something that's so full of its

1261
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:44,079
own nuances full of its own

1262
00:40:41,359 --> 00:40:48,240
drawbacks and pitfalls how can we bring

1263
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:51,280
in this huge thing and try and meld it

1264
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:54,079
into the medium of ttrpgs which is very

1265
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,520
much its own thing its own beast in of

1266
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:56,240
itself and that

1267
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,760
is

1268
00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:00,000
the first question

1269
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,599
which then made me think like

1270
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,040
you have these dice rolls that you've

1271
00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:04,079
just been going through

1272
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,400
can that

1273
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:07,920
can that undermine the atmosphere and

1274
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,240
the example i thought of in my head was

1275
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,240
like you're in you know you've done all

1276
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:14,720
this foreshadowing as the gm you've done

1277
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:18,000
all this hard work you you go

1278
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:20,480
into they're in some spooky catacombs or

1279
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,319
whatnot and you you've worked your ass

1280
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,599
off to have this

1281
00:41:22,319 --> 00:41:25,040
atmosphere

1282
00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:26,640
and then one of the player characters

1283
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,720
says i want to

1284
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,240
do something a bit audacious so i want

1285
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,160
to you know some skeletons are rising up

1286
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:34,400
i want to bash all the skeletons down in

1287
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,000
one hit or i want to do something with

1288
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,480
the light to make it illuminate the

1289
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,000
whole room so we can see everything and

1290
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,560
it's a hard roll but maybe they roll

1291
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,640
really well and it's just sweeps the rug

1292
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,280
out of this atmosphere completely

1293
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,520
undermines the atmosphere because of a

1294
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,480
dice roll and i wanted to get your take

1295
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,119
on on that am i completely

1296
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,319
bonkers or is that something yeah

1297
00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:58,079
so i

1298
00:41:56,319 --> 00:41:59,440
i got two reactions to that anyone who's

1299
00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:01,200
ever played with me i think i cut it out

1300
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,440
of the podcast mostly but anyone's ever

1301
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,599
played with me knows i love the phrase

1302
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,960
i'm looking for failure which is like

1303
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:08,560
half the dice rolls i'll make people

1304
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,079
rule it's like i'm like no no i'm

1305
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,520
looking for a critical failure right now

1306
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:12,640
you're gonna do this unless your

1307
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,040
character

1308
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,040
majestically screws up in the worst way

1309
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,640
possible type of thing like it's i'm

1310
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,880
looking for kind of that worst case

1311
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,160
scenario to happen to kind of

1312
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,160
then we'll play with it it might be like

1313
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,760
yeah you're doing this in like a 10 you

1314
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,280
put on the table and it collapses making

1315
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,280
a loud noise and there goes your stealth

1316
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:32,400
vibe or something but to kind of get

1317
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,200
more to what you're saying specifically

1318
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,680
i think there's it's a more modern thing

1319
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,280
i guess i think it's kind of

1320
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,880
i'm not advocating for the world when i

1321
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,200
saying this like i do think like i think

1322
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,400
a lot of gm's and dms and a variety of

1323
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,520
other people

1324
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,599
go out of their way to being

1325
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,440
too accommodating of players trying to

1326
00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:54,000
try stuff and i'm not saying you

1327
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,280
shouldn't encourage and foster

1328
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,720
creativity in your play like yeah we

1329
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,119
drop the chandelier on them to kill the

1330
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:02,000
monster yeah that's totally fine

1331
00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:04,160
i think there's

1332
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,319
a lot of players are expecting or kind

1333
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,520
of have gotten away with or have

1334
00:43:06,319 --> 00:43:12,640
encountered situations where they can

1335
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,560
within reason do whatever they want and

1336
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,319
my definition of within reason is not

1337
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,839
the same as most other people i've

1338
00:43:16,319 --> 00:43:19,200
learned and

1339
00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:20,240
it's one of those ones which i it's like

1340
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,319
to use you're like i want to do the

1341
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:23,359
light thing it's like okay how do you do

1342
00:43:22,319 --> 00:43:24,960
that

1343
00:43:23,359 --> 00:43:27,599
well i do the light thing no no how do

1344
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,960
you do that no i i i move the light yeah

1345
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,480
i don't care that you're doing that how

1346
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,359
are you actually doing that explain to

1347
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,720
me how your character does that

1348
00:43:33,359 --> 00:43:36,160
and if they can't explain that to me i'm

1349
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:37,359
like no you can't do that like you don't

1350
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,440
know what you're doing your characters

1351
00:43:37,359 --> 00:43:41,599
know what they're doing like

1352
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,800
like i like the idea but

1353
00:43:41,599 --> 00:43:44,880
you're not capable of doing that as a

1354
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,359
character i i know what you mean i think

1355
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,200
as i was explaining to it it more became

1356
00:43:47,359 --> 00:43:50,800
more obvious to me that i think that's

1357
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,920
less of a mechanical question and more

1358
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,280
of a

1359
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,720
social

1360
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,760
question and i think

1361
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:57,200
and this is something i've definitely

1362
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,800
talked about in the podcast before about

1363
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,319
meeting in the middle and trusting

1364
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,319
players and trusting each other and

1365
00:44:00,319 --> 00:44:05,920
trusting the games whilst doing that

1366
00:44:02,319 --> 00:44:07,680
as a player to be like okay i know

1367
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,240
the gm is

1368
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:13,280
working hard to achieve this atmosphere

1369
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:15,760
i probably shouldn't do anything that's

1370
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,280
gonna undermine it and and here's where

1371
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,280
the tough decisions come in because it

1372
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,720
might be the case of like oh my player

1373
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,880
my character maybe would really want to

1374
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:25,359
do this but i know what is happening

1375
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,400
right now so i might take a step back to

1376
00:44:25,359 --> 00:44:28,880
just

1377
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,480
let everybody else appreciate the vibe

1378
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,079
i think that's

1379
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,560
i i'm probably not coming off the way i

1380
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:35,760
want to on this one it's i think that's

1381
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,440
fine i think it's one of those ones

1382
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,920
where you can use the mechanics to kind

1383
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,920
of enforce

1384
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,359
what you're going for use your skeletons

1385
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,359
popping up and bashing things i want to

1386
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:47,520
bash all of them

1387
00:44:45,359 --> 00:44:48,960
do you have like a cleave attack well no

1388
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,800
i've only got one attack versus one

1389
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,040
thing okay you can bash

1390
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,079
one of the skeletons but also now you're

1391
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,240
like

1392
00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:57,839
surrounded by the skeletons just making

1393
00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:00,720
sure we're clear on how this is going to

1394
00:44:57,839 --> 00:45:02,079
work yeah yeah like it's you can use the

1395
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:04,720
mechanics to kind of back up that was

1396
00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:06,160
like no do the cool thing but understand

1397
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,599
like

1398
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,599
there are rules to what you can do with

1399
00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:11,440
the cool thing like yeah it's hard or

1400
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:13,200
like that sure sounds like something

1401
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,480
you'd be bad at as a character with your

1402
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,200
background

1403
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:19,119
no i i completely subscribe to that

1404
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,040
to that train of thought as well

1405
00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:23,119
and i understand where you're coming

1406
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,640
from in terms of players being able to

1407
00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:26,480
do like i want to do this that and the

1408
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,640
other but it's like no you know tell me

1409
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,160
i'm a huge fan of that tell me tell me

1410
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,839
how are you achieving

1411
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,079
how are you achieving that something

1412
00:45:31,839 --> 00:45:36,800
that personally irks me and this is

1413
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:39,119
again full disclosure personal and it's

1414
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,400
it's me as a human being here talking

1415
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:44,640
but you know like the help action in d d

1416
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,720
is a classic example of like i just want

1417
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,400
to help this person do that thing to

1418
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:50,160
give them advantage

1419
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,400
on the role and that

1420
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,520
if i'm in a game where the player gets

1421
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,040
away with

1422
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,800
gets away with that scot-free and just

1423
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,480
gets advantage

1424
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,359
that irks me cause i'm like no how how

1425
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,640
are you

1426
00:45:59,359 --> 00:46:02,480
someone's trying to break open the door

1427
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,480
with a crowbar how do you help other

1428
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:08,240
than just like

1429
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,599
encouraging them with some kind words

1430
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:11,599
well none so that's that's the thing i

1431
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:14,160
get into as well where it's like how do

1432
00:46:11,599 --> 00:46:16,319
you apply advantage in this situation uh

1433
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,880
you can't apply like a crowbar in a door

1434
00:46:16,319 --> 00:46:20,079
it's like okay do you kick the door like

1435
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,680
yeah it's one of those things i'm not

1436
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:23,839
sure you can help but you can also like

1437
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,280
attack the door yourself i

1438
00:46:23,839 --> 00:46:26,720
yeah i think there's kind of some gray

1439
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,520
zone when it comes to that stuff where

1440
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:31,119
it's to use dnd specifically i'm not

1441
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,520
sure i'd allow advantage in that okay

1442
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:36,000
i'm gonna pick the lock i give advantage

1443
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,599
how mm-hmm how are you possibly helping

1444
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,760
the situation are you in the air being

1445
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:41,280
like i believe you can do this do it

1446
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,040
you're good for this like is that what

1447
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,960
your character is doing like unless

1448
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,520
you're a bard i'm not going to do that i

1449
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,680
love that example because it's like

1450
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,920
the person picking the lock is already

1451
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,560
the best person at picking locks so

1452
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,400
anybody else trying to help them is

1453
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,599
not as good as them

1454
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,200
wanting to go back to kind of the lying

1455
00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:00,960
to your players thing i have uh

1456
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,000
definitely not exactly in d and d but

1457
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,319
had a moment okay i helped the player

1458
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,240
i'm like okay cool roll okay now roll

1459
00:47:04,319 --> 00:47:07,200
for advantage yeah because you're

1460
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:10,200
actually a distraction you're

1461
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,200
disadvantaged

1462
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,640
what the hell were you thinking would be

1463
00:47:12,319 --> 00:47:14,640
helpful

1464
00:47:15,839 --> 00:47:21,440
yeah yeah absolutely that's perfect and

1465
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,079
i think to try and bring i know i've

1466
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,599
brought on this stupid digressed path

1467
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:26,400
about the mechanics when we were talking

1468
00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:29,440
about

1469
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,280
nice esoteric horror stuff but um

1470
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,400
i think to answer my own question around

1471
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,920
like

1472
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,640
can the mechanics undermine the

1473
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,920
atmosphere and i think and please tell

1474
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,520
me if i'm being an idiot but i think my

1475
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,319
answer would be

1476
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:44,559
it can if you let it and it's it's one

1477
00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:47,920
of those gm toolkit things of being like

1478
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:50,160
it's within your power to not let it

1479
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,680
in through various ways i think i bring

1480
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,359
this full circle in some ways and i

1481
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,200
bring it back to like i said very early

1482
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:58,319
on in this podcast

1483
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,599
some games have horror as a mechanic

1484
00:47:58,319 --> 00:48:01,839
built into the game your call of

1485
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:05,359
cthulhu's your delta greens anything

1486
00:48:01,839 --> 00:48:07,520
that has a stat that basically is

1487
00:48:05,359 --> 00:48:09,280
influenced by your exposure to horror

1488
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,520
elements deltarune has sanity tel of

1489
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,960
cthulhu has sanity a game i like a lot

1490
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,200
that's an indie game called focus

1491
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,400
basically has i think it's called stress

1492
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,079
in that game

1493
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,079
or basically it's the idea in that one

1494
00:48:18,079 --> 00:48:22,559
where the more weird stuff you've seen

1495
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:23,359
the more failure you've had the

1496
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:25,839
more

1497
00:48:23,359 --> 00:48:27,680
god this is spooky going on around you

1498
00:48:25,839 --> 00:48:30,240
the worse your character gets at

1499
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,920
everything as would make sense uh the

1500
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:35,040
jumper game i haven't talked about yet

1501
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:39,040
uh alien from free league the alien rpg

1502
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,720
i think is a fantastic first horror game

1503
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,800
horror game for people particularly i

1504
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:45,520
think the year zero engine is

1505
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,760
a system more groups should talk about

1506
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,200
like if you're

1507
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,800
your zero engine is put out by free

1508
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,160
league it's for a bunch of their games i

1509
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,520
could list them all off if you wanted me

1510
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,119
to but

1511
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,880
if you're looking for to try something

1512
00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:59,280
new i can't recommend any other stuff

1513
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,720
enough because the year zero engine

1514
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,400
slots into a bunch of things you can

1515
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:04,640
play a space game you can play a horror

1516
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,480
space game you can play

1517
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,760
two different medieval games i think

1518
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,359
maybe it's just one at this point but

1519
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,960
they have

1520
00:49:09,359 --> 00:49:13,280
three different horror games you can

1521
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,960
play kind of off of this one system that

1522
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,880
are dramatically different like two of

1523
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,480
them are basically stranger things one

1524
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,200
of them's alien one of them is called

1525
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,640
the vossen it's their um yes yeah

1526
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,119
yeah yeah that's their kind of

1527
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,680
scandinavian inspired

1528
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:29,920
mystery supernatural investigatory game

1529
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,359
which i like but also given the fact

1530
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,760
they're making a call of cthulhu game

1531
00:49:31,359 --> 00:49:35,200
allegedly i don't get why it exists but

1532
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,240
at the same time it's got a cool art

1533
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,240
style

1534
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,920
i've heard very good things about alien

1535
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,240
for the exact reasons that you mentioned

1536
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,920
but that begs my a very good question

1537
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:46,800
from my point of view then so you made a

1538
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,359
very good delineation there between

1539
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,760
games with horror as a mechanic

1540
00:49:49,359 --> 00:49:53,440
versus games that don't so i know

1541
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,000
broadly speaking dnd doesn't i know

1542
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,319
there's some effects if you go to some

1543
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,839
pandemonium planes that you you roll and

1544
00:49:58,319 --> 00:50:01,359
you might go a bit

1545
00:49:59,839 --> 00:50:02,960
goofy because of the you're on a

1546
00:50:01,359 --> 00:50:05,040
different plane of existence but it's

1547
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,559
not embedded it's not like in the basic

1548
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,559
rules shall we say it's not you know a

1549
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:10,079
fundamental part of the game it's it's

1550
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:11,119
an optional thing that may or may not

1551
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:13,359
happen

1552
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:14,880
so presumably you prefer games where it

1553
00:50:13,359 --> 00:50:17,200
is baked into the mechanics but how do

1554
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,960
you think that changes the

1555
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,520
experience and why do you prefer it when

1556
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,880
it's the horror element is baked into

1557
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,599
the mechanics like

1558
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,599
to me as a completely ignorant outsider

1559
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:29,440
that to me is like telling you how your

1560
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:30,640
character should feel am i i don't want

1561
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,599
to like

1562
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,880
no so it's um i

1563
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:39,520
i'm a crunch guy i come from a long

1564
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,440
background in the crunchier the game the

1565
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,280
better in some ways i have

1566
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,599
veered off some as i've gotten older and

1567
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,680
realized like

1568
00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:50,800
not to sound braggy but like my early

1569
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:54,720
days of tabletop rpgs were in

1570
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:57,359
third edition shadow run nerds like

1571
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:59,280
tables on tables i could roll 30 dice

1572
00:50:57,359 --> 00:51:00,640
and still fail type of game type of

1573
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,480
stuff where

1574
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,240
if you wanted to build a god character

1575
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,559
you could because you could take enough

1576
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:08,960
weaknesses and advantages that like it's

1577
00:51:06,559 --> 00:51:12,000
like okay yeah i'm immune to all types

1578
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:14,160
of damage but i'm also bloodthirsty how

1579
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,079
is that a disadvantage yeah because the

1580
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:19,440
game says it is yeah

1581
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:21,040
it's a long about way of saying that i

1582
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,520
basically kind of i i come from a kind

1583
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:26,000
of mechanically heavy background and

1584
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,599
as a result i really appreciate games

1585
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,440
that are more

1586
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:30,880
narrative focused like delta green a lot

1587
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:34,160
of my favorite games at this point

1588
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,839
aren't anywhere near as crunch as

1589
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,720
i like them to be and i think that kind

1590
00:51:35,839 --> 00:51:38,400
of

1591
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:40,319
there's a freeing aspect of that and i

1592
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,480
think it's one of those ones where use

1593
00:51:40,319 --> 00:51:44,480
dnd is an example dnd is not a horror

1594
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,520
game it's not great at horror

1595
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:49,119
but straud exists

1596
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,720
and

1597
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,800
i'm not the biggest fan of straw at the

1598
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:54,319
end of the day kind of given i think

1599
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,880
it's evolved nicely over time i think

1600
00:51:54,319 --> 00:51:58,960
it's a beloved tenet of the flagpole of

1601
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,720
the community i don't think it's a great

1602
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,960
vampire story in some ways i think it

1603
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:04,800
doesn't go far enough but at the same

1604
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,319
time i get it like the

1605
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,599
the changes made to the modern version

1606
00:52:06,319 --> 00:52:09,760
were very smart and i think we're good

1607
00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:11,440
progress for that thing and it's not the

1608
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,680
way i tell a vampire story but it's a

1609
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,839
very traditional dracula story that fits

1610
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,520
in d yeah i can i just say i'm very

1611
00:52:15,839 --> 00:52:20,480
proud that we've gone this far in the

1612
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,319
show to only now just mention strad i'm

1613
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,319
i'm very happy with that

1614
00:52:22,319 --> 00:52:25,599
yeah i i i don't think i've started as a

1615
00:52:24,319 --> 00:52:27,440
horror camp anything there's a campaign

1616
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:28,480
with horror elements is the real answer

1617
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,480
i think it

1618
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,400
tries too hard at certain points to be

1619
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,760
horror riven like it's

1620
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,599
i think it's one of those ones where

1621
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,960
because of d a lot of people look at it

1622
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:38,480
and go oh it's a horror thing because

1623
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,760
it's more horrifying than what they're

1624
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,359
used to and

1625
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,200
those of us from the call of cthulhu

1626
00:52:41,359 --> 00:52:45,839
eldritch horror kind of

1627
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,280
character dies instantaneously realm go

1628
00:52:45,839 --> 00:52:49,440
that's cute

1629
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,079
but how quaint your character can fight

1630
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,200
the evil that's adorable

1631
00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:54,079
condescending

1632
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,640
so where i was going with the whole

1633
00:52:54,079 --> 00:52:59,119
mechanic aspect of it is in dungeons and

1634
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,559
dragons you only have one health bar and

1635
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:02,319
call of cthulhu with delta green kind of

1636
00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:04,800
the sandy driven games that have

1637
00:53:02,319 --> 00:53:07,760
mechanics around that you have two

1638
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,200
health bars technically yeah and

1639
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,400
you can build i can you can build a

1640
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,520
character that kind of makes both your

1641
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,839
health bars functional but you're

1642
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,440
sacrificing a lot like uh hoffman's

1643
00:53:13,839 --> 00:53:18,000
crusade is a character that's built um

1644
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,960
that's uh agent florence dr florence i

1645
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,880
guess i should probably use her full

1646
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:24,000
title is

1647
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:26,000
built to withstand sandy damage like no

1648
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,400
one else in that game

1649
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,480
i think she has single digit hit points

1650
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:33,119
though technically if she ever is shot

1651
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:35,760
or attacked she probably dies almost

1652
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:37,839
instantly yes it's a very kind of glass

1653
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,599
cannon approach to that aspect of the

1654
00:53:37,839 --> 00:53:42,800
character and that's how that game's

1655
00:53:39,599 --> 00:53:44,319
meant to work i think

1656
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,920
in a game like dungeons and dragons

1657
00:53:44,319 --> 00:53:48,240
because your characters are so

1658
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,119
inherently powerful it's more about kind

1659
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:51,760
of

1660
00:53:49,119 --> 00:53:53,920
vibe and theming as opposed to trying to

1661
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,240
lump those mechanics in there type of

1662
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,680
thing like a sandy mechanic in dungeons

1663
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,200
and dragons doesn't work because you're

1664
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,200
right it does

1665
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:04,319
dictate how your character

1666
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:06,000
in theory should feel but also

1667
00:54:04,319 --> 00:54:06,960
based on how you interact with the world

1668
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,520
in that game you're not going to get

1669
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,040
that same reaction out of it like it's

1670
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,480
the searching aspects of that game it's

1671
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,200
not there's not the rules or the

1672
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,880
mechanics necessarily to at base you can

1673
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,359
totally hack that game to do other stuff

1674
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,040
if you see fit like i've seen

1675
00:54:19,359 --> 00:54:22,640
some people take that game to understand

1676
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,359
directions where they kind of expand

1677
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,960
certain skills into lots of other skills

1678
00:54:25,359 --> 00:54:28,720
that again us in the call of cthulhu

1679
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,960
kind of eldritch horror world are like

1680
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:32,480
yeah we've had those skills for a while

1681
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,520
cool you made them up but like here's a

1682
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,720
list of things you could have just

1683
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,640
pulled from and

1684
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:38,400
it's not new

1685
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:40,319
again it's not me knocking d and d just

1686
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,480
it's occasionally it feels like people

1687
00:54:40,319 --> 00:54:44,079
say oh i invented this

1688
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,799
no you you didn't so there's actually

1689
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:46,799
stephen b and d

1690
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,280
yeah two editions ago okay that's

1691
00:54:49,359 --> 00:54:53,040
interesting yeah it's a sense of history

1692
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,359
and scope i guess and

1693
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:57,839
i i can kind of go back to dnd's horror

1694
00:54:55,359 --> 00:54:59,520
setting it's about putting it there as

1695
00:54:57,839 --> 00:55:00,880
kind of a backdrop and kind of making

1696
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,480
your monsters horrific and kind of

1697
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,480
adding the descriptions you're never

1698
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,559
gonna kind of mechanically get that same

1699
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:09,040
dread though in it just because the

1700
00:55:06,559 --> 00:55:10,400
characters are powerful and hard to kill

1701
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,160
compared to lots of other stuff out

1702
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,200
there like it's uh you're interacting

1703
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,960
with it differently you get to fight the

1704
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,240
monsters yeah

1705
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,359
and that just changes how the thing

1706
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:19,920
feels

1707
00:55:17,359 --> 00:55:21,599
no absolutely i think that's like such a

1708
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,319
thank you for putting that so eloquently

1709
00:55:21,599 --> 00:55:27,200
i think it's a nice marriage between

1710
00:55:24,319 --> 00:55:28,400
the mechanic side of things and then the

1711
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,400
like there's the other stuff you've

1712
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,880
described like it being an unknowable

1713
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,720
fear and this that and the other i think

1714
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,240
marrying those two in such a way you

1715
00:55:34,720 --> 00:55:38,559
know getting that venn diagram as close

1716
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:41,200
to a perfect circle as possible is

1717
00:55:38,559 --> 00:55:43,680
that that is where the gold lies that is

1718
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,599
where the good times come from is is

1719
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,520
having that marriage of

1720
00:55:45,599 --> 00:55:48,960
the mechanical things from the ground up

1721
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,119
plus the

1722
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,240
you know the genuine

1723
00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:53,359
okay well

1724
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,200
if you're gonna sound pretentious so

1725
00:55:53,359 --> 00:55:57,280
will i uh quote unquote the genuine

1726
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,119
horror uh

1727
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,880
elements no and i think

1728
00:55:59,119 --> 00:56:02,799
if people are kind of interested in kind

1729
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:05,200
of so there's an expansion i think it's

1730
00:56:02,799 --> 00:56:07,119
out right now for dnd it's um

1731
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,839
i think called the ruins of symbol room

1732
00:56:07,119 --> 00:56:09,920
it's

1733
00:56:07,839 --> 00:56:12,640
there's a game i love out there called

1734
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,319
zoom room they made a 5e

1735
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,680
setting guide for

1736
00:56:14,319 --> 00:56:17,520
and

1737
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,520
the setting of subaru is why you play

1738
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,960
subaru like that game has a couple other

1739
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,839
problems i love the game despite them

1740
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:26,079
type of thing yeah it is

1741
00:56:23,839 --> 00:56:27,520
one of the few adventuring games out

1742
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:30,319
there kind of very adventure focused

1743
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,839
very we're gonna go raid the dungeon

1744
00:56:30,319 --> 00:56:34,559
centric game

1745
00:56:31,839 --> 00:56:36,559
that actually pulls off horror and i'm

1746
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:37,680
not quite sure how the five efi rules

1747
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:39,440
for it work

1748
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,400
but it does that

1749
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,720
by

1750
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:46,000
making magic horrifying to use

1751
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:47,359
where it's like yeah you have to oh yeah

1752
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,359
we have these priests we have these

1753
00:56:47,359 --> 00:56:50,319
wizards etcetera etcetera

1754
00:56:49,359 --> 00:56:53,839
and

1755
00:56:50,319 --> 00:56:57,040
using magic causes their skin to blister

1756
00:56:53,839 --> 00:56:59,040
and turn dark and it goes away

1757
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,960
unless you use too much of it and then

1758
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,280
your character slowly mutates into a

1759
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:06,000
monster over time

1760
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,520
again it's it's a grim dark setting it's

1761
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,119
one of the few grim dark things doesn't

1762
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,960
feel kind of like a bad copy of some of

1763
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:13,200
the warhammer type of stuff it's very

1764
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,680
uniquely its own thing it's got this

1765
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,520
very kind of fun we're not quite the

1766
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,160
industrial revolution but we're also not

1767
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,440
quite the dark ages and

1768
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:24,000
i think the tech

1769
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,760
lines up nicely for it it's

1770
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,240
it's a low magic setting that you could

1771
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:30,400
have an entire party of very competent

1772
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,240
magic users i it's a very interesting

1773
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,559
it's a uniquely it thing and i'd highly

1774
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,240
recommend anyone who's been kind of like

1775
00:57:34,559 --> 00:57:38,079
i recommend going checking out what i

1776
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,000
call real subaru or kind of traditional

1777
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:42,000
zoom room the rules for zoomers i think

1778
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,520
they're an amazing set of rules for that

1779
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,799
type of game i think it does a very good

1780
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,720
job of

1781
00:57:44,799 --> 00:57:48,480
bringing back some of the crunchier

1782
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,799
character creation stuff that i miss

1783
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,400
from older adventure games but still

1784
00:57:50,799 --> 00:57:54,880
keeping it very streamlined and new

1785
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:57,440
player friendly and mechanically quite

1786
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,400
like no it's pass fail it's simple like

1787
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,599
it's

1788
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,799
it works quite well you can pick it up

1789
00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:02,880
almost instantly

1790
00:58:00,799 --> 00:58:04,880
modern quality of life improvements yeah

1791
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,040
yeah and it's not even that modern game

1792
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,440
like it could use some refinement as

1793
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:11,599
much as i love the base book for it that

1794
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,680
facebook could use a second edition that

1795
00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:16,559
just kind of fixes how the information

1796
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,280
is laid out in it some but sure i think

1797
00:58:16,559 --> 00:58:19,920
it's

1798
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,440
there's a lot to learn from that game

1799
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,040
and i think i haven't ever unfortunately

1800
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,640
haven't read it yet and i probably won't

1801
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,559
get around to it any time soon but the

1802
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:28,240
five effication of it

1803
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:29,680
the suburb community was kind of worried

1804
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,520
that hey we're doing this thing like so

1805
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,880
you're gonna keep supporting original

1806
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,799
zumba right and the answer is yeah we're

1807
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,720
all happy about that but the reaction's

1808
00:58:34,799 --> 00:58:38,640
been very positive to

1809
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,240
them bringing over kind of what makes

1810
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,079
suma room feel

1811
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,920
uniquely subaru

1812
00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:46,160
to d and d and i think a lot of people

1813
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:48,960
that struggle with how to do

1814
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,720
horror kind of how what horror works in

1815
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,319
adventure type setting

1816
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,000
should check out the suma room stuff

1817
00:58:52,319 --> 00:58:56,079
like it's at a minimum it's a very

1818
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,839
interesting world to be familiar with i

1819
00:58:56,079 --> 00:59:00,400
think it's it's not as high fancy

1820
00:58:57,839 --> 00:59:02,559
fantasy or kind of interesting as um

1821
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,920
go to embaram herbaram

1822
00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:05,680
steampunk one that came out yeah it's

1823
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,960
it's not it's not that it's not as

1824
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,200
friendly as that one it's not it's it's

1825
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:11,440
not as clean as any dnd world has been

1826
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:13,359
today like it's very weird that like the

1827
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,799
hell dimension of anything watson's ever

1828
00:59:13,359 --> 00:59:16,960
done is still

1829
00:59:14,799 --> 00:59:18,160
somehow nicer than the default setting

1830
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,520
of some room where it's like yeah it's a

1831
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,640
town

1832
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,319
and that's kind of hard to do without

1833
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,680
the art style of that game like it's the

1834
00:59:22,319 --> 00:59:26,160
everything about that game is kind of

1835
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,680
tied up in what that game exactly is

1836
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,520
it's trying to be nothing but itself

1837
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,880
which you give it points for but i think

1838
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,760
it's

1839
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,119
yeah i

1840
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,640
look to that game where it's like it's

1841
00:59:33,119 --> 00:59:36,799
not inherently a horror game but it's

1842
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,720
got very good horror elements yeah that

1843
00:59:36,799 --> 00:59:40,880
you can leverage yeah the lore of it

1844
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,599
kind of feeds into yeah look this is

1845
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,559
like

1846
00:59:41,599 --> 00:59:47,040
you're going into this haunted forest

1847
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:49,760
how haunted it might be a gateway to

1848
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:51,760
hell it might not it might be worse but

1849
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,599
yeah go in there and raid some tombs but

1850
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,200
you just said hell dimension yeah go and

1851
00:59:53,599 --> 00:59:57,280
write some tombs though why because

1852
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,180
we're paying you to go do it what's in

1853
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,520
the tomb

1854
00:59:58,180 --> 01:00:01,280
[Music]

1855
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,280
hell uh

1856
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,839
yeah it's some of the lore that gets

1857
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,839
crazy for that game like uh

1858
01:00:05,839 --> 01:00:09,920
spoilers not really it's in the two it's

1859
01:00:07,839 --> 01:00:11,760
doing it's into the basebooks there are

1860
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,440
three species in the game that are just

1861
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:16,319
different evolutionary tracks of each

1862
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:18,720
other and how far they go underneath the

1863
01:00:16,319 --> 01:00:20,880
cursed forest to

1864
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,880
go through essentially metamorphosis

1865
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,160
and it's cool yeah like it's as a result

1866
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,440
it's kind of cool so yeah this is whole

1867
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,520
it's like yeah there's this cavern

1868
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,119
system below the forest what's in it

1869
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,359
death

1870
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:35,119
like metaphorically

1871
01:00:31,359 --> 01:00:36,640
yes but actually yes also literally yeah

1872
01:00:35,119 --> 01:00:37,920
yeah six and one and half a dozen of the

1873
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,160
other

1874
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,760
there may be a giant mass of eyes and

1875
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:44,000
shapes that used to be a deer down there

1876
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,280
too also might be death you said a deer

1877
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,520
yeah it shouldn't have gone into that

1878
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,520
cave

1879
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:52,000
anyway you have to go there

1880
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:54,240
yeah uh well thank you for that tip

1881
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,359
there and suggestion um is there

1882
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,920
anything you wanted to talk about that

1883
01:00:55,359 --> 01:01:00,240
we might have missed and i yeah yeah i

1884
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,760
can only imagine yes but uh the answer

1885
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,920
is yeah but i think we've covered

1886
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,599
everything i can think of in this area

1887
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,280
we've definitely branched out

1888
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:08,720
significantly i've gotten to

1889
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,000
promote two of my favorite games out

1890
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,480
there in the modern world right now so

1891
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,079
i'm happy about that i'll get good i get

1892
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,440
one person to try a delta green or zoom

1893
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:16,480
room on any of these things i'm always

1894
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,200
happy

1895
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:21,599
i know for sure and i'm i'm super happy

1896
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,839
as well because it could have been very

1897
01:01:21,599 --> 01:01:26,400
easy just to do like let's talk about

1898
01:01:23,839 --> 01:01:28,799
strad for an hour so i'm i'm glad that

1899
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:31,200
we we've covered some more i said like

1900
01:01:28,799 --> 01:01:32,799
esoteric and more kind of trickier

1901
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,040
topics so no thank you thank you very

1902
01:01:32,799 --> 01:01:37,119
much for that yeah yeah it goes back to

1903
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:39,359
kind of the point i made of a lot of

1904
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:41,520
stuff i i get people love 5v and i get

1905
01:01:39,359 --> 01:01:43,280
why people love 5e

1906
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,400
5e won't be here forever

1907
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,079
there's lots of games out there that i'm

1908
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,319
not saying you should stop playing 5e

1909
01:01:46,079 --> 01:01:49,839
but variety is the spice of life like

1910
01:01:48,319 --> 01:01:51,839
try something new every once in a while

1911
01:01:49,839 --> 01:01:53,040
i've never regretted i've had games i

1912
01:01:51,839 --> 01:01:54,799
hate it but i'm stuck okay i learned

1913
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,720
something interesting from this

1914
01:01:54,799 --> 01:01:59,039
yeah it's always you know there's a

1915
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,799
tools are specialized to do certain

1916
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:03,440
things and you wouldn't use a hammer to

1917
01:02:00,799 --> 01:02:05,200
you know unscrew the washer of your tap

1918
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,280
i mean you could definitely get there in

1919
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,680
the end but it would be a

1920
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:11,520
mess uh and in the same way

1921
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:13,440
still

1922
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,119
in the same way that like there are

1923
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:17,440
certain ttrpg systems out there that are

1924
01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:19,440
designed from the ground up to enable

1925
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,039
certain types of play so yeah absolutely

1926
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,520
that's just the way

1927
01:02:21,039 --> 01:02:24,640
of the world but uh no so thank you very

1928
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,960
much for that is there is there anything

1929
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,400
you would like to promote obviously i

1930
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,720
mentioned negative modifier a couple

1931
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,079
times throughout this but yes if

1932
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,680
anything i've talked about any of the

1933
01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:34,799
games i've talked about interest you you

1934
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,440
should go check out the negative

1935
01:02:34,799 --> 01:02:38,240
modifier podcast we post weekly when we

1936
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,680
are

1937
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,200
kind of in a campaign and as of

1938
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,440
recording this we are very much in a

1939
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:46,240
campaign and will be for the foreseeable

1940
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:48,960
future episodes go up on

1941
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:51,359
wednesday depending on your time zone

1942
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:53,039
and your geographical location but

1943
01:02:51,359 --> 01:02:54,559
wednesday for me at least is when we say

1944
01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:56,079
stuff goes up it's

1945
01:02:54,559 --> 01:02:58,079
for many up there a little bit sooner

1946
01:02:56,079 --> 01:02:59,599
but yeah no we post weekly we're doing

1947
01:02:58,079 --> 01:03:00,559
delta green stuff right now we have a

1948
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:01,520
couple

1949
01:03:00,559 --> 01:03:03,200
kind of

1950
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,319
pre-recorded seasons already done you

1951
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,400
can go check out if you find us

1952
01:03:04,319 --> 01:03:08,400
interesting we can be found anywhere

1953
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,240
podcasts are found also on youtube we

1954
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,480
have a twitch we use

1955
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,839
every once in a while same name if you

1956
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,280
easy way to find us just type negative

1957
01:03:13,839 --> 01:03:18,480
modifier into anything you're looking

1958
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,920
for or go to negativemodifier.com

1959
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,960
and that'll take you to kind of our nice

1960
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,720
little

1961
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,880
list of links you can find us on and

1962
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:26,319
other stuff like that but yeah i

1963
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,200
if you're looking for horror stuff we

1964
01:03:26,319 --> 01:03:28,880
are

1965
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,200
no one has been upset since they checked

1966
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:33,039
us out is our joke we always have

1967
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:35,039
we seem to have a very loyal fan base

1968
01:03:33,039 --> 01:03:36,799
once they show up they occasionally

1969
01:03:35,039 --> 01:03:39,119
don't like the stories we tell or how

1970
01:03:36,799 --> 01:03:41,440
they end but the stories are good

1971
01:03:39,119 --> 01:03:42,960
until people get angry at them or

1972
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:45,839
it's like i wouldn't have done that well

1973
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,799
we did so

1974
01:03:45,839 --> 01:03:48,880
well

1975
01:03:46,799 --> 01:03:50,720
so as usual all the links will be in the

1976
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,000
description i do encourage you to check

1977
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,000
them out anything we've talked about

1978
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:57,839
today has piqued your interest in the

1979
01:03:54,000 --> 01:04:00,480
the horror genre of ttrpgs so all that's

1980
01:03:57,839 --> 01:04:01,920
left to say is thank you ever so much

1981
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,160
charlie for this insightful discussion

1982
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:07,440
on horror thank you for having me thank

1983
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:10,400
you everybody for listening at home

1984
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,960
yeah as as usual please like comment

1985
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:15,839
subscribe all the all the usual spooky

1986
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:17,920
stuff that you get asked to do and uh

1987
01:04:15,839 --> 01:04:20,319
yeah thank you all for listening and

1988
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,920
good night

1989
01:04:20,319 --> 01:04:24,319
and now it's time for the patreon shout

1990
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,880
outs once again thank you to matt street

1991
01:04:24,319 --> 01:04:27,760
at mpstreet88 on twitter for supporting

1992
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,039
the show

1993
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:32,039
if you need support running your

1994
01:04:29,039 --> 01:04:34,240
personal or business schedule head to

1995
01:04:32,039 --> 01:04:35,920
virtualtimehustle.com or on instagram to

1996
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,079
make that difference between should do

1997
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,920
and done boss it better with support

1998
01:04:38,079 --> 01:04:42,160
from cat who will help you get back that

1999
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,680
essential time you've been searching for

2000
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,520
if you would like to support what we do

2001
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,000
and get four shout outs a month head

2002
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,720
over to

2003
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,960
patreon.comthinkingcritically or you can

2004
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,799
just buy me a coffee at kofi.com

2005
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:55,039
thinking critically

2006
01:04:52,799 --> 01:04:58,160
i would also like to humbly request that

2007
01:04:55,039 --> 01:05:00,000
you drop me a rating on spotify which is

2008
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,599
a thing now you can do on the mobile app

2009
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:04,480
or just a

2010
01:05:01,599 --> 01:05:07,039
like subscribe follow

2011
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:09,680
shout out tell your friends anything

2012
01:05:07,039 --> 01:05:11,119
would be hugely appreciated probably

2013
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:16,760
more than the other stuff to be honest

2014
01:05:11,119 --> 01:05:16,760
so thanks again for listening and bye

2015
01:05:17,110 --> 01:05:24,240
[Applause]

2016
01:05:24,130 --> 01:05:29,360
[Music]

2017
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:29,360
[Applause]

2018
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,290
[Music]

Charley Profile Photo

Charley

GM & Podcast host & Editor

Charley is the founder, game master, and chief editor for the actual play podcast Negative Modifier. He has been playing ttrpgs on and off for roughly 15 years starting with D&D 3e.