Jan. 22, 2021

Progression


I'm joined once again by my DM confidant and close friend of 20 years, Jamie Mitchell, where we talk all about "Progression". We spend a lot of time talking about the age-old discussion of milestone versus XP. Despite the pros and cons of both, ultimately there is only one clear choice. Once we get out of the mire of mechanically progressing characters, we move on to trickier concepts such as player and DM progression not only within the 5e framework, but also as human beings. A big take away from this episode, apparently a theme of this podcast, is there's no silver bullet and if you're ever anxious of embarrassing yourself at the table, don't worry, because Jamie and I have done it all before! Lot's of swearing in this one.

  • 01:41 - Milestone versus XP levelling
  • 28:33 - Progression compared to video games
  • 33:58 - The bell curve PC level trends
  • 39:45 - Managing progression as a DM
  • 52:25 - Character narrative progression
  • 58:54 - How we've become better DMs

Find Jamie on:

Find me on:

References:

Intro Music: 'Local Forecast' by Kevin MacLeod
Intermission Music: 'Chill' by Kevin MacLeod
Outro Music: 'Local Forecast - Elevator' by Kevin MacLeod

Transcript

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to thinking critically

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a d and d discussion a podcast where we

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deep dive single word concepts or ideas

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within the dungeons and dragons 5e

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framework my name is danilo and i like

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all kinds of games and the crunchy

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mechanics that make him tick you can

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find me on twitter facebook and

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instagram and i'd really appreciate a

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like or a follow

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today

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is a very special episode as we are

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welcoming back

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a guest from a previous episode jamie

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mitchell hello who joined us on

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mistakes uh the episode wasn't a mistake

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it's a very good episode uh

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and that was all the way back in episode

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seven i say all the way back it's only

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halfway back

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so yeah welcome again jamie thank you

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very much cheers for having me again oh

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yeah so right we had

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a lot of fun i think it's it's it's

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simple to say and things didn't get a

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bit weird towards the end but yeah it

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was great

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it they got unique they got unique

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[Laughter]

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so i hope everybody knows what they are

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about to buckle up for with this one

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[Laughter]

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um yeah so

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today's topic is a bit

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nicer i suppose than mistakes today

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we're talking about progression

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so what does progression mean to you

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jamie within context the obvious thing

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that comes up is the different methods

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of progressing your characters through

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the game so the obvious one is the

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juxtaposition between traditional exp

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advancement uh versus milestone um it

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seems to me that the exp or xp

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progression tends to just pretty much

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almost just be a

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adventurous league thing now a an

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inverted commas professional game thing

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whereas most people that i've chatted to

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that are dming tend to stick to the

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milestone progression because there's a

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hell of a lot less maths for one thing

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um but also more than that i think it

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gives the dm an element of control

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in the

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you don't you don't get that classic

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thing if you kill a coal board when you

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hit level 11 and that's the one thing

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that pushes it up and not having to

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juggle through an entire party as well

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so that's the first thing that springs

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to mind really yeah yeah i think that's

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the low hanging fruit of

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progression of always a fan of low

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hanging fruit

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in indian d5e and yeah i like the

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implicit

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nature there of that we're not

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professional in the because we use

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milestones so we're just some amateur

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scrubs

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now

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in in the defense and this is really

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good timing in the defense of

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adventurers league and xp leveling i was

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reading only the other day

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in defense of adventurers league

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basically there was a an unpopular

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opinion on reddit that basically said

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adventurous league sucks and i don't

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know why it's a thing and so popular

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and the defense was basically

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it's a really good

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vehicle if you want to keep progressing

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with a character like if there's a

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character you really love and want to

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take from one to 20

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a.l is probably the only place you're

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really gonna achieve that because you

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can just drop in and drop out and join a

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different campaign in a different city

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with your same level 12 character that

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you've had from before so

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despite i mean i'm in the same school of

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thought as yourself with milestone

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leveling

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but i i never thought of it that way you

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know i never thought of oh hey i can i

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can really see how that's you know

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almost like carrying a character with

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you on a usb stick or probably literally

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with a digital character sheet and and

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just kind of being like oh hey here's

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the guy that i last played with in

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london and now we're here in southampton

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and

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he's he's followed me this whole way and

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i've seen him through it rather than a

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one-shot or yeah that's some i hadn't

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really considered that the i suppose one

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of the massive benefits with that

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incredible standardization that you get

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within uh exp and specifically in

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adventurous league is that

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it doesn't matter if that campaign that

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table falls apart because you do just

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pick up go to the next and because of

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that standardization you know that

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you're able to

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say keep progressing that character yeah

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so yeah that is that is good um i've not

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i don't think i've ever played at a

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table just with people that i didn't

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know i've always stuck with my kind of

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my core group which have been going a

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few years now so that for me it would be

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interesting i would

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if i was dming it i'd be scared for the

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players and if i was playing i think i'd

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be scared for the dm to be honest

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i think you got to be a certain

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type of player like

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you have to be super open-minded and

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super flexible as a player i think that

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if literally if i was the hand of god

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pulled up out of my chair now i dropped

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at a table with a character sheet i'd

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just try and hit the ground running as

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doing many areas of my life and just

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kind of be like okay let me read the

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table is this a serious face game or is

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this a stupid goofy game and then you're

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just gonna have to

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she's gonna have to go with it i think

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yeah the

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uh i think i probably and approach it

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from

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the opposite angle in the i sit down at

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the table try and assess the general

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mood and then try and prod it in a

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random direction i mean evidence at the

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moment playing through strad and

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yeah i mean i probably urinated more

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than most characters do in strad

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i don't i don't know whether i want to

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pull on that string or not

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i'm an omish wizard eccentric like he's

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he's crazy and he's unhappy and uh well

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i'm happy everyone's [ __ ] unhappy

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borrowing yet you know what i mean

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but

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there is that

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it depends on what the vibe of the table

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is because i can i try and i try and

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keep it within the realms of whatever's

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going on but also to try and expand out

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the palette you have on a table i mean

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it's getting quite off topic now but i

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suppose

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um there is also them of progression in

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that in the yeah that like they're

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progressing through the different styles

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of play that you get episode by episode

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or session by session rather sorry um so

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you've got that some sessions are

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very very serious other sessions are

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even quite joking even in within a

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fairly standardized table and a

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standardized setting

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here's the secret of my podcast though

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jamie is that

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the topics are so deliberately ambiguous

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that we can pretty much talk about

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anything and i can always tenuously link

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it back to the topic at hand so you're

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absolutely right by saying

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we're talking about progression of you

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as a a player almost at this point so

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yeah

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i wouldn't have i wouldn't have guessed

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that or thought that no i was completely

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under the spell

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[Laughter]

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so talking of you know that that low

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hanging fruit earlier on of xp versus

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milestone as i've mentioned i join you

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in that camp of milestone is

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better for the way i play my game

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i'd probably say nine times out of ten

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it's probably the way to go probably

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outside of al unless you're playing

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90 dungeon exploring and 10 social then

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maybe you'd want to go xp but otherwise

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i don't see why you would do you think

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that's driven by necessity and that you

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just look at the the leveling system and

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the exp and think that's a whole lot of

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math that i don't really want to do that

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can actually push players slightly

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further apart as opposed to

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to just being into okay you've done this

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large group task that i needed you to do

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so

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that

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yeah is it i think by necessity or is it

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because you think it works better do you

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reckon six of one and half a dozen of

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the other now i know there are

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disadvantages to milestone and the major

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one i hear is that basically you're

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giving more power to the dm and they

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already have like a shitload how much

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more power does a god need

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exactly there's just you could just keep

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pumping power into them and

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you know some players might already feel

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on the back foot you know at the whims

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at the mercy of the dms than to tie how

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powerful they are into just when the dm

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says they can get more powerful i can

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see why that might rub some people up

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the wrong way

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yeah and it's a you know that's a

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legitimate point and absolutely there'll

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be dms out there that

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put the carrot on the end of the stick

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and say go left or you won't level up

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yep you know it's it's a tool in there

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utility belt to railroad essentially

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as with all tools it's how they're used

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right something i'm only just thinking

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about as well actually is you've it does

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open quite a lot of um kind of option

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for

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massively favoring one play style so

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if your campaign or you as a dm lean to

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more toward more story driven

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then you could start only leveling

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players who engage with the game in a

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certain not only leveling players only

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leveling the party when certain players

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engage with the game in certain ways so

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yeah your barbarians out there

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one-handedly taken down to rasks but he

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never gets the level up session it's

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always your bard who

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has won over the heart of the local

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burger master or whatever local official

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so i can see actually yeah there's a

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there's a bit of potential for

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favoritism kind of

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messing things up there as well which

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i've really considered before yeah so i

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mean all that being said i think the

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drawbacks of xp

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vastly outweigh

268
00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:08,560
that

269
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,640
one or two drawbacks of milestone so one

270
00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:11,839
is to answer your previous question yeah

271
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,760
maths

272
00:10:11,839 --> 00:10:16,560
man i've already got way too much going

273
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:19,519
on and that the last thing i want to do

274
00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:22,560
at the end of a combat encounter is go

275
00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:25,200
[ __ ] how much was that cobalt worth uh

276
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:27,600
20 xp right let me plug that into my

277
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,600
excel spreadsheet of

278
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,360
numbers

279
00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,519
you know i can see i can see that

280
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,680
working for savants where you're just

281
00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:37,519
really comfortable at doing incredibly

282
00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:40,800
quick maths and incredibly organized and

283
00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:42,800
totting it all up at once that is not me

284
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,480
yeah and also that

285
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,279
if you do it like that

286
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,880
you can't help but if somebody has to

287
00:10:47,279 --> 00:10:51,440
miss the session

288
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,440
which happens like no

289
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,279
game is perfect people always miss

290
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,160
sessions people can't make it for

291
00:10:55,279 --> 00:11:00,079
whatever reason and i can't imagine the

292
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,680
disappointment if that player were to

293
00:11:00,079 --> 00:11:03,760
return the following session and be like

294
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:06,640
oh everyone else leveled up

295
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,399
that's cool what did they do

296
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,720
oh it was i rolled on the random

297
00:11:08,399 --> 00:11:12,160
encounter and table and a couple of

298
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,440
giant spiders came out the forest they

299
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,160
killed them and that was enough to level

300
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,240
up oh yeah great

301
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,480
cool i guess i'll wait until we

302
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,440
fight some giant spiders and then i get

303
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:26,720
to level up too and i'm now permanently

304
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,880
behind the rest of the party cool great

305
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,800
yeah this is what this is where that

306
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,160
progression of different characters at

307
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,440
different times

308
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,519
yeah really

309
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,720
really can cause an issue i'd imagine

310
00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:41,360
within within that progression system

311
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,360
yeah i'm a huge fan of

312
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,600
maintaining parity and obviously the

313
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,360
simplest way to do that is by keeping

314
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,519
everybody the same level which is one

315
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,120
reason i'm also reticent to bring in say

316
00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:51,920
the deck of many things because that has

317
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,680
some

318
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,800
level adjustments

319
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:58,480
hidden in there which

320
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,279
i'm way too risk adverse to bring that

321
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,600
in

322
00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:03,680
yeah no i can imagine i've actually

323
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:07,279
given one of my players a deck of many

324
00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:08,959
things in a drunken fit of

325
00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:11,680
ridiculousness

326
00:12:08,959 --> 00:12:13,760
but luckily all the other players have

327
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:15,600
bullied the hell out of him

328
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,760
so much that

329
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,760
they every now and again he'll kind of

330
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,240
gesture to the pocket it isn't they'll

331
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,519
freak out at him so that's that's quite

332
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,800
good they manage themselves really

333
00:12:23,519 --> 00:12:26,800
comfortably with that actually

334
00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:30,240
yeah so

335
00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:32,399
yeah i just i just can't bother to deal

336
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,680
with the numbers when designing combat

337
00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:35,839
encounters is

338
00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:39,600
a pain in the ass enough

339
00:12:35,839 --> 00:12:42,079
at the other major detriment is

340
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,519
non-combat encounters should also still

341
00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:45,839
give xp

342
00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:48,880
yeah which is

343
00:12:45,839 --> 00:12:50,800
you you're already outside of

344
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,320
a framework to a certain extent there so

345
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,480
come counter will tell you how much xp

346
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,680
is worth two grand cool

347
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,000
done

348
00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:58,880
so there's a comic called order of the

349
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,040
stick

350
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,040
from the giants in the playground forum

351
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,639
um there's a webcomic and there's a

352
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,680
strip in there where

353
00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:09,279
the whole party levels up except the you

354
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,760
never know that he's chaotic evil but i

355
00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:14,480
mean he is chaotic evil halfling and the

356
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,160
entire party levels up and he's gutted

357
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,200
because he doesn't level up

358
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,720
and then there's he does some silica

359
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,160
about how pissed off he is that you

360
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,200
haven't leveled up and then bing you

361
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,760
imagine levels up through the role play

362
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,480
is that that wonderful point of oh yes

363
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,800
so

364
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,959
even within that very

365
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:35,600
rigid and like i say standardized

366
00:13:32,959 --> 00:13:37,440
numbers based exp there is that uh

367
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,279
leeway given to the dm to basically

368
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,199
still go well if a player does something

369
00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:42,720
you particularly like then go for it

370
00:13:41,199 --> 00:13:45,519
then yeah which kind of which kind of

371
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,199
defeats the purpose right yeah it's like

372
00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:48,800
you know if i was in that position and

373
00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:49,680
the player mr game and they came back

374
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,120
and they were bummed out that they

375
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:53,440
didn't level up because the rest of the

376
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:56,720
guys killed some giant spiders i'd be

377
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:59,680
really really inclined to introduce

378
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,360
some like super on the nose you know

379
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,839
encounter for them to talk their way

380
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,000
past or to have a moment to moment just

381
00:14:03,839 --> 00:14:07,199
so i'd have a reason an excuse to be

382
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,000
like oh well

383
00:14:07,199 --> 00:14:09,920
you

384
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,839
got round to that non-combat encounter

385
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,399
so you get some xp which surprise

386
00:14:11,839 --> 00:14:15,360
surprise levels you up ta-da and then

387
00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:17,199
you're just back to milestone

388
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,120
progression anyway so yeah it's just

389
00:14:17,199 --> 00:14:20,399
milestone xp that you didn't know

390
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,920
moleskine progression you didn't know

391
00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:24,000
was coming

392
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,120
yes yeah so i think all things

393
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,040
considered

394
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:30,560
and you're never gonna

395
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:33,120
escape the have we leveled up yet trope

396
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:35,120
in the same way you'll never escape the

397
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,600
i've got dark vision trope

398
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,199
so it doesn't matter which

399
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,480
yeah which method you pick you're always

400
00:14:39,199 --> 00:14:42,079
going to have that question from your

401
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,800
players of

402
00:14:42,079 --> 00:14:45,839
please sir can we level up yet

403
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,600
and

404
00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:49,839
shooting straight there is a little bit

405
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,560
of me that says you know what no

406
00:14:49,839 --> 00:14:52,560
[ __ ] you guys

407
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,920
i was gonna say actually generally the

408
00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,000
way that my table runs is that they

409
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,040
level up when they've bullied me to an

410
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,880
extent or i've got drunk and

411
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,040
uncharacteristically

412
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,160
kind

413
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,160
um

414
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,360
so yeah i mean

415
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,519
it's quite often i've i've skipped them

416
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,519
ahead not skipped ahead levels but there

417
00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:21,199
have been things where

418
00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:23,600
i haven't realized quite how long some

419
00:15:21,199 --> 00:15:25,760
part of the arc is going to take

420
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,240
and so i've planned for them to be at

421
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,079
certain levels at certain milestones

422
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,040
yeah and they're like but

423
00:15:30,079 --> 00:15:35,279
it's been it's been three months

424
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,040
yeah and we're bleeding and we're tired

425
00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:39,199
just give us something

426
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,320
yeah yeah it's it's a it's a

427
00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:44,160
double-edged sword for sure uh but you

428
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,399
know i think i i do think the benefits

429
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,079
outweigh the drawbacks but

430
00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:50,399
yeah sometimes i realize it and

431
00:15:48,079 --> 00:15:52,959
sometimes i do feel bad that wow okay

432
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:55,040
yeah i've as a dm i've misjudged how

433
00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:56,480
long this is going to take and you know

434
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,440
hands up my players haven't leveled up

435
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,880
and

436
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,920
i couldn't even tell you when they

437
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,040
leveled up

438
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,120
last

439
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,320
and it's purely because i'm

440
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,680
it's like

441
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:09,519
when you hoard potions in an rpg or you

442
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,360
hold on to your ultimate ability in a

443
00:16:09,519 --> 00:16:13,120
video game because you're waiting for

444
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,959
that just the right time

445
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,040
it's a bit it's a bit like that for

446
00:16:14,959 --> 00:16:18,000
milestone leveling up for me as a dm i'm

447
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,000
thinking

448
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,600
oh that was a hard battle but

449
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,959
i know that there's maybe a harder

450
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,800
battle on the encounter and that'll be

451
00:16:22,959 --> 00:16:26,720
more rewarding so let's let's just hold

452
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,199
on for that one before they level up and

453
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,360
then unbeknownst to me they go left and

454
00:16:29,199 --> 00:16:34,839
the encounter was right and oh well

455
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:37,759
that's six months of level seven

456
00:16:34,839 --> 00:16:39,279
sorry yeah no i know what you mean i

457
00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:41,759
think quite often what will happen is

458
00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:44,079
that they'll ask me then things will

459
00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:46,240
they'll grind hard for a couple of

460
00:16:44,079 --> 00:16:47,759
sessions because i've said no

461
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,959
um and whether that's a subconscious

462
00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:50,720
thing on the part of the players that

463
00:16:48,959 --> 00:16:52,800
they know that they've got to struggle

464
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,399
through a bit more or whether it's just

465
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,320
on me that i'm actually pacing them a

466
00:16:54,399 --> 00:16:59,199
little bit harder just so that when we

467
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,199
get to the end i can go and now you

468
00:16:59,199 --> 00:17:02,800
level up and to be to be honest as well

469
00:17:01,199 --> 00:17:04,640
that can even be

470
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,880
just a session of role play so they've

471
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,679
had the really hard battle you let them

472
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:12,559
chat out for an entire session and and

473
00:17:09,679 --> 00:17:14,000
and kind of decompress after the

474
00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:16,400
the main event

475
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,559
or the main event the main combat or

476
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,280
whatever encounter it may be and then

477
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,679
it's at the end of that

478
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,000
long rest or whatever where you go and

479
00:17:23,679 --> 00:17:28,079
then you can level up and that can give

480
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,160
a real sense of progression because not

481
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,360
only have they done the thing because

482
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,919
this is the thing if the bill had been

483
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:36,559
beaten the hell out of by whatever

484
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:38,880
high xp monster or mob that it is

485
00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:40,240
that at the end of that to go yep you've

486
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,679
been beating the [ __ ] out of you're all

487
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:45,360
on three uh hp and you level up seems a

488
00:17:43,679 --> 00:17:47,280
little incongruent with actually what's

489
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:49,360
going on but yes having been able to

490
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,880
take a step back go god wasn't that

491
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,160
really hard

492
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,600
but now we've got to carry on and do

493
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,600
this other stuff

494
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,679
and then they level up seems to

495
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,440
narratively work a little bit better but

496
00:17:57,679 --> 00:18:02,000
i'm very very story driven with this

497
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,760
stuff same but there was a point in

498
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,919
there you mentioned about leveling up

499
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,160
kind of like mid dungeon

500
00:18:05,919 --> 00:18:10,799
and it made me think about you know

501
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,880
mentioning about balancing encounters

502
00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:15,120
and if i design a dungeon i'm usually

503
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,960
designing the whole thing at once for

504
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:18,000
them as they are

505
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,520
today

506
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,160
and if you were running

507
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,200
xp based they could level up midway

508
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,320
through

509
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,720
and depending on the size of the party

510
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,840
make the next fifty percent of the

511
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,320
dungeon

512
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,720
redundant trivial this has happened to

513
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,679
me with boss battles several times man

514
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,240
um

515
00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:40,320
i say several times i'm not several but

516
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,000
there have been like big things that

517
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,799
they've worked up to and then they've

518
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,960
kind of bruised it because i'd put it as

519
00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:49,280
a hard deadly encounter of a little late

520
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,039
and then by the time they got there

521
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,480
because they'd had that really long

522
00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:54,559
grind before

523
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,080
i'd kind of leveled them up out of

524
00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:57,600
just because it seemed it seemed

525
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,919
appropriate

526
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,919
and then that has been a slightly

527
00:18:59,919 --> 00:19:04,240
underwhelming boss battle

528
00:19:01,919 --> 00:19:06,320
my campaigns tend to be there's a big

529
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,240
overall story but i'm quite good at

530
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,600
filling in random gaps because if you go

531
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,760
back to the mistakes episodes you'll

532
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,440
you'll see that i hadn't got bloody clue

533
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,400
what i was doing when i started

534
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,120
so

535
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,720
with that i'm quite good at going okay

536
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:19,840
right even though that boss and so

537
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,200
there's going to be a load more

538
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,120
challenges that you're going to hit

539
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,039
straight after that in order to make up

540
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:26,080
for it slightly

541
00:19:25,039 --> 00:19:28,400
yeah

542
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:31,280
as i said funnily enough in that episode

543
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:33,200
i'm way too prideful to just trivialize

544
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,200
50 of my dungeon

545
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,840
well the the alternative is

546
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,679
you have to design the dungeon

547
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,679
you just gotta add so much more overhead

548
00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:43,360
to yourself to preempt the level up so

549
00:19:41,679 --> 00:19:45,280
you kind of got to work out when they'll

550
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,120
level up during the dungeon to then up

551
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,000
the difficulty on the rest of the

552
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:52,080
encounters based on your prediction of

553
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,840
okay if they fought those three guys

554
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,120
then they'll level up here in this room

555
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,400
which means that

556
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:58,559
technically the encounters later on

557
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,559
they're at a higher level and then you

558
00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:02,799
open up yourself a whole can of worms of

559
00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,320
oh they only fought two of the guys oh

560
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,440
well the rest of the dungeons gonna kill

561
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,600
them so this is probably um

562
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,720
i just don't get it no i get it i

563
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,480
understand what you're going for this is

564
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:15,440
probably a little cheap

565
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,440
um but this is where i think your dm

566
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,200
tool bag of

567
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,760
basically explaining everything a way

568
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,559
with magic comes in because there's

569
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,280
nothing stopping you from saying ah and

570
00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:30,080
as you pass through the next portal

571
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,960
you enter the room all the doors lock a

572
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:35,120
gas is released and you'll undergo one

573
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,919
point take one point of exhaustion and

574
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:39,760
you can feel this poison is now making

575
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:41,760
it progressively harder you're gonna

576
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,919
keep getting exhausted the door in front

577
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,960
of you open so you can keep going but it

578
00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:47,520
means you've got to get to the end of

579
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,440
the dungeon get the antidote and whatnot

580
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,799
there's there's always ways that you can

581
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,320
make their lives

582
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:53,600
bloody hard

583
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,120
yeah

584
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,559
yeah i

585
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,520
but you know milestone leveling gets rid

586
00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:58,960
of all that

587
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,760
necessity

588
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:04,240
so i can see why i think as long as

589
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,760
you know it's not super stingy and it

590
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,320
makes sense and it hits those story

591
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,720
beats where it makes sense to do so and

592
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,720
not like oh we just got our asses kicked

593
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,840
here's a reward with a level up

594
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,760
yeah

595
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,520
so here's here's something that'll be

596
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,840
good to get your take on here's what

597
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,400
i've done so as i've mentioned many many

598
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,280
many times probably too many times that

599
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,360
my players uh not as ophed with the

600
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,320
rules as i perhaps would appreciate them

601
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:31,280
to be

602
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,120
so i tried a number of different methods

603
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,679
asking nicely kind of in-game

604
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:37,200
inspiration all the usual

605
00:21:35,679 --> 00:21:39,440
talking to them about it yeah all the

606
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,919
usual kind of things and i said you know

607
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,720
what i'm tired so here's what i'm gonna

608
00:21:41,919 --> 00:21:44,640
do

609
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,400
and this is probably

610
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,640
i'm gonna get lynched for this what i'm

611
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,000
about to say this taboo

612
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,559
of

613
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,720
i've tied their real world

614
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:58,400
human being knowledge to their character

615
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,520
knowledge by saying if we can go three

616
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,760
sessions

617
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,280
without a rules question

618
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,159
you guys will level up

619
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,840
independent of the milestone system so

620
00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:10,640
theoretically you could level up twice

621
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,679
in one session okay so there you go if

622
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,600
anything is going to get you to learn

623
00:22:11,679 --> 00:22:15,280
the bloody rules it's going to be a free

624
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,039
level up yeah

625
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,799
yeah which is really going to come into

626
00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:20,559
play when we start after the holiday

627
00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:22,960
period when we return in a couple of

628
00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:24,240
weeks and it's one of those i may as

629
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,480
well get a little flip counter of my

630
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,559
wall to say sessions since last rules

631
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,720
question and it's pretty much sat on

632
00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:32,880
zero since we started playing

633
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,880
uh

634
00:22:33,919 --> 00:22:38,400
and it's i i keep the the funny thing is

635
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,320
i keep drawing attention to it i'm like

636
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,840
oh well that countless back down to zero

637
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,880
and somebody will be like what what

638
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,080
sorry what are you saying i'm like oh

639
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,880
the counter for your three level up that

640
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,159
you're not going to get for another

641
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,159
three sessions that's back down to zero

642
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:52,240
and uh you know this is making me sound

643
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:54,400
like some

644
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,840
benevolent evil

645
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,240
bastard

646
00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:00,960
let's just kept them all at level one 50

647
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,240
sessions in no not at all i'm i'm

648
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,120
talking about

649
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,919
do i get sneak attack as a level 8 rogue

650
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:07,919
or

651
00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:09,120
can i cast the spell no because that's

652
00:23:07,919 --> 00:23:11,280
not in your spell list and you're

653
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,159
already concentrating on another spell

654
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,640
okay

655
00:23:12,159 --> 00:23:16,559
i'm talking those kind of oh but he's

656
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,039
come into my space so i get an attack of

657
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:21,200
opportunity right no no

658
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:22,559
i'm talking those kind of questions just

659
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,880
just to make me seem like less of a

660
00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:26,720
bastard so would you

661
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,640
if they were discussing rules amongst

662
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,360
this is again heading off a little bit

663
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,600
but

664
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:33,600
it kind of isn't it isn't if say your

665
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,360
characters or your players one of them

666
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,080
tried to do something or was i was

667
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:39,600
trying to do some kind of maneuver and

668
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,279
one of the others said

669
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,039
oh no i don't think you can do that like

670
00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:44,799
does a little bit of rules lawyering and

671
00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:46,480
you don't have to get involved would

672
00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:47,760
that be all right like provided they

673
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,960
sort it out amongst themselves and

674
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,640
roughly know what they're doing that's

675
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,440
that would be good enough for you yeah

676
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,880
yeah i mean usually that doesn't really

677
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,919
happen because typically it's only in

678
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,039
combat

679
00:23:55,919 --> 00:24:01,840
so the spotlight is on that person so i

680
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:04,559
can't i can't not be involved as a dm

681
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,720
because i'm there waiting for them to do

682
00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:08,640
their bloody turn right so the moment

683
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,919
they can't do it for whatever reason i'm

684
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,000
like well that's

685
00:24:09,919 --> 00:24:14,000
you've impacted the game because you

686
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,039
haven't read the rules and that that's a

687
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,480
bad thing

688
00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:18,000
right you can't yeah

689
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,440
that's like driving without having

690
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,880
driving lessons and you're crashing into

691
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,320
a lamppost you've impacted everybody

692
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,799
else's thing because you haven't spent

693
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,480
the time to learn and just because no

694
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:27,840
one got hurt doesn't mean that you're

695
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,840
not a fool

696
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,600
yeah no i get that i think it's probably

697
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,520
table differences as well because i mean

698
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,400
i've got at least one character that's

699
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,400
pretty hard on the rules lawyering which

700
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,600
works for me sometimes other times i

701
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,799
have to be like

702
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,000
no

703
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:43,600
stop saying the things that you're

704
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,640
saying this is how this is gonna rule

705
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,039
anyway

706
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,720
yeah i should i should probably count my

707
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:51,440
blessings that i don't

708
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,440
have to worry about shutting people down

709
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,120
usually i'm asking for support

710
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,600
right yeah yeah

711
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,960
so i don't think there is a problem

712
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,039
because there's a couple of things going

713
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,600
on there one you've got to be able to

714
00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:05,360
have fun as the dm and if you feel like

715
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,039
you are having to

716
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,679
board a line

717
00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,440
take characters goes for them almost

718
00:25:09,679 --> 00:25:13,600
like you're having to hand hold them

719
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,400
through till they get to the inevitable

720
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,640
choice for that turn god i can't imagine

721
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,520
much more boring than that the entire

722
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,360
fun of dming the thing is that's a lot

723
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,760
of it's having players screw up your

724
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,279
games and do weird and bizarre things

725
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,600
that you wouldn't have ever considered

726
00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:32,400
doing yourself so if you're having to

727
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,679
constantly manage that at the table then

728
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,520
to put

729
00:25:33,679 --> 00:25:37,919
because what you've done is you've got

730
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,240
carrot it's not like you've not offered

731
00:25:37,919 --> 00:25:43,760
them something it is this

732
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,120
free level up which is fantastic

733
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,640
however

734
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,720
at the same time there is the element of

735
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,039
stick there that unless you fulfill x

736
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,320
criteria you're not you're not going to

737
00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:56,559
get it so that is it is still putting on

738
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,159
player choice which is all about there's

739
00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:01,039
a slight argument like you've already

740
00:25:58,159 --> 00:26:03,279
made for the um oh you're not you're

741
00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:04,880
tying real world knowledge to the

742
00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:07,840
character knowledge

743
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,799
but it is a game there is a fairly

744
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,480
strong element there that you

745
00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:14,240
need to

746
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,159
you should be getting better at it time

747
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,919
on time um

748
00:26:16,159 --> 00:26:20,480
and again that you don't want to you

749
00:26:17,919 --> 00:26:22,880
don't want to rule out your your casual

750
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,720
in inverted commas player from that

751
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,400
there's always going to be one player at

752
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,120
your table that has slightly different

753
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,360
priorities for the rest that are that's

754
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:33,360
more interested in

755
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,880
playing the game just as a casual game

756
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:37,360
and a social

757
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,520
but if that's starting to impact either

758
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,039
the other players or your ability to

759
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,960
play within the game then you need to be

760
00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:44,480
able to to do something about it and if

761
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,080
you've got multiple players that are

762
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:50,960
doing this then a a solution which will

763
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:53,919
affect the whole party or cause the

764
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,840
whole party to have to work together

765
00:26:53,919 --> 00:26:57,600
as again argument is causing slight

766
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,080
friction and then there's also the thing

767
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,520
of you've got to be able to all have fun

768
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,120
there and if you're giving them the

769
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,039
option to do it it's not you're stopping

770
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,559
them from leveling up full stop this is

771
00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:07,600
an extra thing that they could get so

772
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:10,400
now i don't really see a problem with

773
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:13,120
that okay good that makes me feel better

774
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,360
i do i do often worry that i'm that evil

775
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:17,679
teacher of well if no one owns up

776
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:18,960
everybody gets the tension i mean that's

777
00:27:17,679 --> 00:27:20,720
to be fair that's kind of the

778
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,960
environment i want to breed i want the

779
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,720
other players to be like okay

780
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,279
learn the rules dude because i also want

781
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,279
this level up i want them to encourage

782
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:31,760
each other but then on the same breadth

783
00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:33,679
when that other person doesn't then

784
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,360
you're kind of implicitly punishing

785
00:27:33,679 --> 00:27:38,480
those that do want to learn so i don't

786
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:41,120
know there's pretty reams of theory and

787
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,080
academic work on

788
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:45,520
psychology in it yeah that i'm way

789
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,720
underqualified

790
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:52,640
to come on in any stretch group

791
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,720
psychology ah healthy dose of bullying

792
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,520
it's it's the it's the business it's my

793
00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:01,440
white collar management in me coming out

794
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,120
of being like do the work get rewarded

795
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,039
yeah yeah yeah no but i mean that's

796
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,320
that's how you get progression

797
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:09,600
yeah yeah

798
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,880
in a nice way it's a nice mirroring of

799
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,799
player progression versus their

800
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,559
character progression and you kind of

801
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:16,640
i'm trying to bend the lines together

802
00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:19,279
and make them match so as the players

803
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,480
get better the characters get better and

804
00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:22,480
you know as i said the alternative is

805
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,640
maybe one levels up and the others don't

806
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,399
but then i'm back into square one of

807
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,080
well then they have even less incentive

808
00:28:26,399 --> 00:28:29,039
to play because

809
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,159
they are

810
00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:33,279
behind inadverted quotes their peers so

811
00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:36,159
yes

812
00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:37,840
man it's a minefield it seems like such

813
00:28:36,159 --> 00:28:40,320
a benign

814
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:43,039
thing right leveling up in an rpg it's

815
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:46,159
just rote it's just

816
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:49,120
what most of the bloody game is and yet

817
00:28:46,159 --> 00:28:51,679
we've spent almost 32 minutes talking

818
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,679
about it and haven't even really

819
00:28:51,679 --> 00:28:55,600
discredited the surface but i mean this

820
00:28:53,679 --> 00:28:57,360
just shows you the massive

821
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,000
the the vast

822
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,919
kind of crevasse between

823
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,880
tabletop and

824
00:29:01,919 --> 00:29:07,600
computer game rpg because in a computer

825
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,399
game everything's done for you you get

826
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:14,000
you get to choose your progression path

827
00:29:10,399 --> 00:29:16,399
but in terms of the actual leveling up

828
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,520
well that's when you finish the level or

829
00:29:16,399 --> 00:29:20,640
in most rpgs when your character kills

830
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,399
all the things because you've got an

831
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,559
algorithm running the maths for you when

832
00:29:22,399 --> 00:29:26,159
it's on you that's a very very different

833
00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:28,159
level of responsibility that you've got

834
00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:29,360
to take on as the dm

835
00:29:28,159 --> 00:29:32,240
yeah i

836
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,399
i was never like a huge fan of

837
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,799
rpgs certainly more

838
00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:39,039
you know from japan and the like final

839
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:40,799
fantasies and whatnot i played them

840
00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:42,000
but now i'm thinking back there was

841
00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:44,080
always something

842
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,679
that never really sat right with me and

843
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,080
now i think about it it's probably the

844
00:29:45,679 --> 00:29:50,399
leveling up system because it it almost

845
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,000
seems redundant in a way

846
00:29:50,399 --> 00:29:53,919
so in the same way that i was talking

847
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,080
earlier on like you'd scale a dungeon to

848
00:29:53,919 --> 00:29:58,640
match the player's level

849
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,520
the enemies in an rpg are scaled to

850
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,840
match

851
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:04,399
where the designers think the characters

852
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:07,200
will be at that time based on an average

853
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:10,159
playthrough which again kind of defeats

854
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:13,919
the purpose those bosses in traditional

855
00:30:10,159 --> 00:30:16,159
rpgs are hard doors they're hard gates

856
00:30:13,919 --> 00:30:17,679
to say you cannot get past this unless

857
00:30:16,159 --> 00:30:20,559
your characters are

858
00:30:17,679 --> 00:30:22,240
x level yeah a certain level

859
00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:24,640
which is weird it's like don't don't

860
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:28,320
have levels then just

861
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:30,559
just just you do it as levels as in the

862
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,520
rather than a character level just the

863
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:36,080
actual level of the game

864
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,000
yeah or you another way to progress the

865
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,080
characters outside of

866
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,480
raw numbers and it's one of the reasons

867
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,000
i fell out of love hard with world of

868
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,240
warcraft is because that's the most

869
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,880
egregious example of like

870
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:52,000
if an npc has a skull next to it which

871
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,360
is probably copied from mmos before it

872
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,200
like that thing's just gonna one shot

873
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,000
you and it's just

874
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,919
it just

875
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,720
rubs me up such the wrong way that you

876
00:30:57,919 --> 00:31:03,120
can be a level like 50

877
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,880
arcane wizard but because you've gone

878
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,919
into the next area the [ __ ] frogs

879
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,919
will kill you

880
00:31:05,919 --> 00:31:09,840
right okay that sounds that sounds

881
00:31:07,919 --> 00:31:13,039
that's like if you say that like that it

882
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,279
sounds super dumb yeah really really um

883
00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:17,440
immersion breaking absolutely

884
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:19,279
and i think because you're very into the

885
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,399
total immersion within a character i

886
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:23,760
think that's one of the things that

887
00:31:20,399 --> 00:31:26,960
really grabs both of us about dnd

888
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,760
then something like that that does just

889
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:32,240
hits that well no this isn't realistic

890
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,799
this isn't congruent this is this is

891
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,320
breaking the story this is world

892
00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,840
breaking in the most

893
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,640
most um

894
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,000
egregious way then

895
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,279
yeah no i can understand that really

896
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,320
putting up i nearly brought up world and

897
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:49,120
warcraft because talking about

898
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,640
south park did that that a couple of

899
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,120
episodes and

900
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,200
sorry massive spoiler alert here but the

901
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,600
way that they eventually get to where

902
00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,559
they need to be in the end is by staying

903
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:03,360
in the safe place and killing pigs and

904
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:06,000
so there is that thing of just grinding

905
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,760
in order to get to level 100 or whatever

906
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,440
your system you're using

907
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,159
is

908
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,880
yeah no it doesn't doesn't sit right at

909
00:32:12,159 --> 00:32:15,039
all

910
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,159
no i'm like you can if you do if you run

911
00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:18,240
xp

912
00:32:16,159 --> 00:32:20,240
rules is written you can totally do that

913
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,679
indeed yeah like that person that's come

914
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,840
back after a week off because they've

915
00:32:21,679 --> 00:32:25,120
had a holiday and they're a level behind

916
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,480
the rest of the players like all right

917
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,720
we're going to go and see the wizarding

918
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,000
tower to find out what our next quest is

919
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,240
and that player's character can be like

920
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,080
yeah um i'm just gonna head outside you

921
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,679
know into the wilderness for just half

922
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,960
an hour just give me half an hour guys

923
00:32:35,679 --> 00:32:38,559
and then you have to

924
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,799
like the dm finds themselves in a

925
00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:42,399
position of running a one-on-one combat

926
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:45,679
with

927
00:32:42,399 --> 00:32:47,120
yeah just just to get his xp to level up

928
00:32:45,679 --> 00:32:48,880
yeah and then you're in you either do

929
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,120
that and everyone's bored or you just

930
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,519
say okay you did it and you leveled up

931
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,679
therefore defeating the purpose of

932
00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:58,799
xp based system again

933
00:32:55,679 --> 00:33:02,399
yeah no absolutely that's

934
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:04,559
yeah no i'm not not a fan of xp for at

935
00:33:02,399 --> 00:33:06,000
that myriad some reason there's probably

936
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:08,000
a couple others we haven't even touched

937
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,760
on that but yeah

938
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,840
yeah i think

939
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,399
i can see you know time and a place

940
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,559
adventurous league as we said yep it has

941
00:33:14,399 --> 00:33:19,120
a purpose and a lot of people get

942
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:21,919
enjoyment out of it but for pretty much

943
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:25,120
every home game i can't see how it works

944
00:33:21,919 --> 00:33:26,640
unless you're playing yeah like a super

945
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,159
mechanical

946
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,159
super

947
00:33:28,159 --> 00:33:32,000
like hex based

948
00:33:30,159 --> 00:33:34,399
game where

949
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,240
every single thing counts and the dm

950
00:33:34,399 --> 00:33:38,240
puts a hell of a lot of effort in

951
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,159
so fair play to the dm's that do that

952
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,039
because yeah pick up yourselves

953
00:33:40,159 --> 00:33:43,519
yeah

954
00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:45,519
also if you could write in uh if any of

955
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:47,200
you are good at doing taxes as well

956
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:48,720
because if you're calculating xp like

957
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,679
that you're probably pretty good at it

958
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,679
so i could use a hand there

959
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,600
yeah

960
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,200
i can't imagine doing that if you didn't

961
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,799
want to do it

962
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,720
yes yeah

963
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:03,760
okay i mean i add a few other bits and

964
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,200
bobs on xp and progression i think one

965
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,039
more thing before we move on to other

966
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,159
parts is that

967
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,399
most

968
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:13,040
campaigns are

969
00:34:10,399 --> 00:34:15,280
and i apologize in advance i can't start

970
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,200
my sources just at the moment but and

971
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,159
i've mentioned it on a previous episode

972
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:22,639
where most campaigns and games are the

973
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:24,720
bell curve is basically levels one to

974
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:26,960
say seven

975
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:29,760
and then it really bottoms out

976
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,760
until level 20 where it spikes again for

977
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,359
people playing one shots you know i was

978
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,280
trying to have fun level 20 character

979
00:34:33,359 --> 00:34:38,000
because we never get to level 20 right

980
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,320
and i was going to ask why do you think

981
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,440
that is why is there that banding so

982
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,399
strong why is basically levels like 11

983
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,679
to 20 just this wasteland where no one

984
00:34:46,399 --> 00:34:49,919
ever plays

985
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:52,879
i mean i really can't speak to that

986
00:34:49,919 --> 00:34:54,639
because i've played so many level 11

987
00:34:52,879 --> 00:34:56,320
games

988
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,240
and thanks for just proving me wrong

989
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,880
yeah i mean this is i think it's a table

990
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:02,480
thing though very much i think possibly

991
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,079
part of it is that

992
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,920
a lot of

993
00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:06,880
so people want to do an interesting

994
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,720
build

995
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,960
if you're a player that has been playing

996
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:13,040
for a while so okay

997
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,520
when you come in

998
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,720
you are

999
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,680
basically starting out playing the game

1000
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:18,960
you don't know what you're doing you're

1001
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,520
level one

1002
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,240
that means that you

1003
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,800
you kind of have to have that initial

1004
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:29,520
not too many rules to think about

1005
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,680
those tend to move very quickly those

1006
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,720
first couple of levels

1007
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,960
so

1008
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,000
when you are very first coming to the

1009
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,480
table

1010
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:42,400
for the first time ever as a player

1011
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:44,160
you need that very limited rule set in

1012
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,560
order to be able to actually just

1013
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,240
comprehend anything there there's almost

1014
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,440
that built-in

1015
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:53,599
way of helping the player learn the game

1016
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,359
at level one and two by the time you get

1017
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:56,640
to level three then you're actually

1018
00:35:55,359 --> 00:35:58,560
starting to be able to do some

1019
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,720
interesting [ __ ] that's obviously where

1020
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,920
the vast majority of classes come into

1021
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:05,280
their own

1022
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:08,160
so very first starting out that initial

1023
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:11,359
kind of first three levels is very much

1024
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,680
for teaching players to play then you've

1025
00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:15,280
got level three where if you would

1026
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,560
already played a few sessions and you

1027
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,880
were kind of comfortable then you can

1028
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,800
just drop in at level three and that is

1029
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,880
you you know you are a rogue you've got

1030
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,599
your roguey things you can do you know

1031
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,839
your um x y or zed your your character

1032
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:30,480
is already fairly solid and you can

1033
00:36:27,839 --> 00:36:31,680
you've got that smallish skill set that

1034
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,440
you can use but there's still

1035
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,119
specialized

1036
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:39,119
i think between three and you say seven

1037
00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:41,920
yeah it's it's around that point yeah

1038
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:44,240
that's quite easy to manage both as a

1039
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,160
player and as a dm there's not shed

1040
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,920
loads of rules it's still swinging

1041
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,680
enough to make it quite interesting as

1042
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,560
well for both of you

1043
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,960
and when you start getting up towards

1044
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,440
the mid level like as soon as you can't

1045
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,280
hit double digits then you are looking

1046
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,160
at something that players are quite a

1047
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:05,040
lot harder to kill um a level 10 party

1048
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,560
can steamroll some really high cr things

1049
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,200
if they're played with reasonable

1050
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,280
intelligence and get a few good roles in

1051
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,520
so i think it does become a lot harder

1052
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,920
for the dm around

1053
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,119
that double digit point

1054
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,480
also

1055
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:20,480
tables

1056
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,800
are fickle things sometimes they last

1057
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,400
sometimes they don't i'm lucky in there

1058
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,480
even throughout all of this lockdown

1059
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,560
we've just been able to move over to

1060
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,560
online i can see there's plenty of

1061
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,920
tables where that couldn't happen for

1062
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:36,400
whatever reason connectivity people just

1063
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,359
not having the technical wherewithal or

1064
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,280
the

1065
00:37:37,359 --> 00:37:41,359
all the interest because it is different

1066
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,280
if your players there just to have the

1067
00:37:41,359 --> 00:37:44,880
social and then all of a sudden actually

1068
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,720
what they're doing is sitting on a zoom

1069
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,640
call for four hours not getting a chance

1070
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:50,560
to talk and not having that human

1071
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,560
interaction i can see people not not

1072
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,440
wanting to switch over to that

1073
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,720
i think the the double digits to level

1074
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,800
20 is a kind of middle ground

1075
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,960
where your players have already got the

1076
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,280
knowledge where they could deal with a

1077
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,680
level 20 character

1078
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:10,560
so what's the point in missing out half

1079
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:13,119
the skill set if you're gonna drop it in

1080
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,960
my case though actually

1081
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:16,079
i either run run one shots at level

1082
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,920
three for players that don't really know

1083
00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:21,359
what they're doing um level 11 for my

1084
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,440
players that do know what they're doing

1085
00:38:21,359 --> 00:38:25,040
because that's a nice number to get a

1086
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,240
cool building

1087
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,720
you can you can get some really

1088
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:32,480
interesting interesting builds within

1089
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:34,320
there but it's not super stupidly op

1090
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,000
so i do run a lot of one shots at level

1091
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,920
11 actually

1092
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,760
but it's that seeing the thing all the

1093
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,480
way through because

1094
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,040
you can write a campaign but if

1095
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,440
everybody's engaging with it hard

1096
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:50,400
then your

1097
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:53,599
your one shot can take a month or in my

1098
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,839
case my six month campaign can take

1099
00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:58,560
three plus years

1100
00:38:55,839 --> 00:39:00,880
so i think there's there's that you it's

1101
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,000
kind of a it's kind of a no man's land

1102
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,440
because it's

1103
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,400
for people

1104
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,920
that

1105
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,160
really

1106
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,680
know the rule set this may be why you're

1107
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,440
having trouble with

1108
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,520
playing

1109
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,760
but people that know the rule set want

1110
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,839
to experiment and they're just going to

1111
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,200
have a play about with something

1112
00:39:17,839 --> 00:39:21,839
so i can only really speak to my own

1113
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,160
table on that one um but the progression

1114
00:39:21,839 --> 00:39:26,079
that i've seen from level one to level i

1115
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:29,520
think that level 11 now

1116
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:31,040
is just awesome you can't get it you

1117
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,440
can't get it

1118
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:37,770
really in any other way because the

1119
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:41,099
characters are fought to get there

1120
00:39:37,770 --> 00:39:41,099
[Music]

1121
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:51,440
i i i'm torn because i i think that'll

1122
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,599
always be in d for me

1123
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,680
a level of

1124
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:58,320
fourth wall breaking when it comes to

1125
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,560
levels up because it is so story and

1126
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,480
character based for me

1127
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,800
the fact that over the course of one

1128
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,640
night they wake up and become

1129
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,160
way more powerful

1130
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,720
on some levels

1131
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,640
it just just is weird to me like if they

1132
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:13,920
if they have a fight go to bed wake up

1133
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,359
and can do things they couldn't do

1134
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,760
before

1135
00:40:15,359 --> 00:40:19,280
that is always just a bit like

1136
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,560
why couldn't i attack two times

1137
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,119
yesterday

1138
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,440
but now i can attack two times today

1139
00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:27,440
i don't know

1140
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,440
managing that narratively is really

1141
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,400
difficult as well actually

1142
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,800
so

1143
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,920
there i mean there are ways and means of

1144
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,800
doing it

1145
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,040
i think is it level three that hex

1146
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,119
blades actually get their

1147
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,520
hex weapon or is that level one it's

1148
00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:45,280
probably level one isn't it but just

1149
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,520
just an example in one of my other

1150
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,400
campaigns a character wanted to

1151
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,680
multi-class into hex blade

1152
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,400
and

1153
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,040
so

1154
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,760
i kind of stipulated that's fine

1155
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,200
but we're going to want to work this in

1156
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,440
narratively

1157
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,560
um and i think people tend to pay more

1158
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,400
attention to that when it comes to

1159
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,839
multi-classing people are more willing

1160
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,280
to go okay well then you're going to

1161
00:41:05,839 --> 00:41:08,640
have to go and train with a monk in

1162
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,040
order to be able to fulfill that

1163
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,560
prerequisite to be able to multi-class

1164
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,119
whereas i don't think people apply that

1165
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,880
so stringently to things like just base

1166
00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:19,040
level up so

1167
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,560
okay yeah you can attack tomorrow but

1168
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,560
you've got to go out and kill a million

1169
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,079
squirrels not that but you know i mean

1170
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,680
you've got to be doing the training

1171
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:28,160
you've got to be narrating the training

1172
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:31,359
in order to be able to let me do these

1173
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:33,440
things to yeah to progress you i mean to

1174
00:41:31,359 --> 00:41:35,280
be honest and most of the time i hand

1175
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,520
wave it you watch some some of the

1176
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,520
professional dms and they work their

1177
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,000
level ups into it

1178
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,960
massive like incredibly well

1179
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,400
um

1180
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,920
the other thing just different briefly

1181
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,560
mention as well is

1182
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,000
magic items give you a much nicer

1183
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,200
narrative way

1184
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,200
of

1185
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,400
progressing the characters and so you

1186
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,280
can always

1187
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,800
you could use mcguffins as a narrative

1188
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,200
device to

1189
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,720
slightly fix that incongruence i mean

1190
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:06,720
don't you really be stupid if they ended

1191
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:08,720
up having to get the 20

1192
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:10,560
magic dragon balls do you know what i

1193
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:12,720
mean but at the same time there are

1194
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,880
little narrative things that you could

1195
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,680
try and work in there

1196
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,839
yeah

1197
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,200
that's absolutely right i've heard other

1198
00:42:17,839 --> 00:42:22,000
people say like

1199
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,760
you can home brew magic items to give

1200
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,760
class features from other classes so

1201
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,880
people aren't forced to

1202
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,560
multi

1203
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,880
class for something you know for just

1204
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,560
one minor thing that they want so you

1205
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,079
can give

1206
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,280
you know some

1207
00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:39,839
ring of rage that makes someone have a

1208
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,520
barbarian rage once per long rest as a

1209
00:42:39,839 --> 00:42:43,440
kind of soft

1210
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,760
multi-class for them which is i think

1211
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,160
quite an elegant way of doing it but his

1212
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:52,480
here's my

1213
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:54,480
my ironic hypocrisy of myself in that

1214
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,680
on one hand i'm scared of

1215
00:42:54,480 --> 00:43:00,720
giving players magic items because

1216
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,920
it will make them overpowered but in the

1217
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,839
same breath

1218
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,200
i don't like leveling them up

1219
00:43:03,839 --> 00:43:07,280
because

1220
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,800
it doesn't make sense to me in the world

1221
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,480
so the solution to that is giving them

1222
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,520
magic items to level them up because it

1223
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,240
doesn't make sense in the world so i'm

1224
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,680
just chewing myself in the foot

1225
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:17,520
yeah i mean you've constantly got to

1226
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,839
manage your own um

1227
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,680
your own comfort with the party that

1228
00:43:19,839 --> 00:43:23,680
you're running

1229
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,440
what happens when your pro party's

1230
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,640
progression outstrips your ability as a

1231
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,800
dm

1232
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,200
like that's that's got to be a pretty

1233
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,720
intimidating situation to be in

1234
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,040
yeah well

1235
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:37,200
i'm a head out

1236
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:41,119
yeah campaign's over yeah uh you're all

1237
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:44,160
too good for my belly

1238
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:47,040
and that's it's you can

1239
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,680
i am scared of that and

1240
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:52,240
maybe i shouldn't be but

1241
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,200
i have to say with six players at

1242
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:57,359
level eight the kind of creatures

1243
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,880
they're fighting and how complex combat

1244
00:43:57,359 --> 00:44:01,119
is

1245
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,119
man i'm

1246
00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:04,480
i gotta say i'm not

1247
00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:07,040
super looking forward to more

1248
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,599
complicated combat

1249
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,040
it scares me a little the spell slots

1250
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:13,520
i'm gonna have to track the number of

1251
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,400
npcs i'm gonna have to track

1252
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,880
the

1253
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,720
level of the design of the

1254
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,880
environment they're fighting in

1255
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:24,319
i'm scared of having to design and keep

1256
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:27,359
track of it's you know i kind of pine

1257
00:44:24,319 --> 00:44:29,440
for the day when it is just

1258
00:44:27,359 --> 00:44:31,520
four guys level three

1259
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,560
yeah just smacking around a bunch of

1260
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,640
nulls

1261
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,200
yeah and the the the most exciting it

1262
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,119
gets is they've thrown a net on you

1263
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,720
whereas now it's like okay the back line

1264
00:44:39,119 --> 00:44:42,800
is a couple of sorcerers the front line

1265
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:45,040
there's a couple of mounted guys who are

1266
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,400
gonna jump off their mounts when the hp

1267
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,000
gets to this level the backline

1268
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,200
sorcerers will try and

1269
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,520
you know tactics like this

1270
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,560
that's just a level eight

1271
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,839
yeah

1272
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:59,280
um

1273
00:44:55,839 --> 00:45:00,960
okay that's an interesting point man

1274
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,359
so i generally

1275
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,400
don't have monsters

1276
00:45:03,359 --> 00:45:07,359
are

1277
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:09,200
either it's some kind of real serious

1278
00:45:07,359 --> 00:45:11,440
so

1279
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,680
feature monsters and moocs i think is a

1280
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,680
good way of going there because

1281
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,680
realistically a lot of the when they're

1282
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,040
more character at level 11 a lot of

1283
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,880
stuff that they're going to be fighting

1284
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,000
doesn't have that amount of special

1285
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,680
rules

1286
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,480
it's just mob

1287
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,480
however you have your one big one or two

1288
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,760
big guys that are gonna you've got

1289
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:33,119
specials and they're getting your most

1290
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,960
attention as the dm for me i am also

1291
00:45:33,119 --> 00:45:36,000
really really good at winging it

1292
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,440
apparently

1293
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,000
the one thing that you have to be really

1294
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,880
careful of there is not screwing it up

1295
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,880
and oh it did 3d eight damage to this

1296
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,480
character last turn but then it's only

1297
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,920
done two

1298
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,599
this turn

1299
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,520
do you like because it's if you as soon

1300
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:53,200
as you do something like that then then

1301
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,640
the entire thing is completely smashed

1302
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,560
[ __ ] anyway and you can't carry on

1303
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,520
really or you just lose your trust in

1304
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,800
the trust of your players and if you

1305
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,400
don't trust your players need to have

1306
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,800
buying from them then you can't really

1307
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,800
do it so yeah i mean this is getting

1308
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,720
this moved on to a dm progression

1309
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,599
doesn't it it's a very smooth segway

1310
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:11,440
yeah i like it um but that thing of

1311
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:13,520
having to run more and more and more

1312
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:16,160
complicated encounters i think one thing

1313
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,200
that you can maybe do there

1314
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,800
is

1315
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,560
and you probably do this anyway because

1316
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,079
you're

1317
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,760
either a diva is a bastard or quite a

1318
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:26,079
clever guy depending on which way you

1319
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:30,079
look at it but playing

1320
00:46:26,079 --> 00:46:32,160
not just to the features of the creature

1321
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:32,880
you play within its stat block obviously

1322
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,920
but

1323
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:40,000
changing tactics so

1324
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:42,160
my party had a submarine and they were

1325
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,440
traveling across the ocean uh it was a

1326
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,440
well i said submarine it's the apparatus

1327
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,880
of quelish um but it's a slightly juiced

1328
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,880
up version that i've got that's a little

1329
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,079
bit more usable in some situations and

1330
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,960
not in others

1331
00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:54,079
uh they came across i think it's a hogan

1332
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,480
yeah it would have been so hogan because

1333
00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:58,400
they had the priestesses i think uh so

1334
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,880
they came across this hogan they've had

1335
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,680
a couple of fights with them

1336
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,119
and

1337
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,480
they generally kicked crap out of

1338
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:05,920
everybody but then

1339
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,920
didn't finish off the last one it just

1340
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,960
swam off and left them to it

1341
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,480
so

1342
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,560
what that had meant

1343
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,280
is that at least one

1344
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,200
creature had seen the party

1345
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,079
but more importantly had seen them

1346
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,359
entering and exiting the machine

1347
00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:22,480
in order to get into the machine in the

1348
00:47:21,359 --> 00:47:24,480
first place it was something like a dc

1349
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,240
20 in check for the party because

1350
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,839
they've never seen anybody do it before

1351
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:29,359
you've just had a relatively intelligent

1352
00:47:27,839 --> 00:47:30,880
sentient creature i mean not super

1353
00:47:29,359 --> 00:47:32,160
intelligent i think it was

1354
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,400
i remember it was a normal slogan or a

1355
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,760
priestess but um they

1356
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,319
they'd seen what they were doing so they

1357
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,800
knew roughly how to do it so the next

1358
00:47:38,319 --> 00:47:42,720
time that they encountered one of those

1359
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,319
mobs it was

1360
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:46,480
a couple of processes so basic spell

1361
00:47:44,319 --> 00:47:47,920
casters but they had thunder wave

1362
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,359
and so

1363
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,680
their tactic

1364
00:47:49,359 --> 00:47:53,359
was get inside the thing and cast

1365
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:56,319
thunder wave

1366
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:57,520
now that's not a particularly complex i

1367
00:47:56,319 --> 00:47:59,920
didn't have to

1368
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,280
worry about lots and lots of how they

1369
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:02,800
can use all of these certain special

1370
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,040
abilities i mean somebody's gonna go

1371
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:07,599
don't have that spell yeah i know they

1372
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,680
didn't but or they don't on stat but

1373
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:11,920
this is obvious obviously homebrew

1374
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,400
everything in order to fit and

1375
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,040
i think the idea of suicide effectively

1376
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,200
suicide bomber sahagim priestess is just

1377
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,599
too cool to let up

1378
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,440
but that kind of little tweak

1379
00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:25,680
doesn't take too much more brain power

1380
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,599
in terms of having to worry about

1381
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,760
complex abilities

1382
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:31,920
but does bring that thing for the

1383
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,160
players of oh we're gonna have to deal

1384
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,400
with this in a different way or it

1385
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,839
brings in that element of

1386
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,000
fear something i was talking quite a lot

1387
00:48:37,839 --> 00:48:43,119
about in the mistakes episode keep your

1388
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,119
players scared

1389
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,240
yeah that's

1390
00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:50,880
nice and it sounded like a very good

1391
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:52,880
encounter to be a part of i mean they

1392
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,599
smashed it they they killed the things

1393
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,200
no problem it was an issue but their

1394
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:59,359
little faces

1395
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,200
when the first one climbed in through

1396
00:48:59,359 --> 00:49:03,440
the back and they went what why are they

1397
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:06,000
doing that how are they doing that

1398
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:08,400
what's going on well i mean she's just

1399
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,920
done it so you can deal with that and i

1400
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,280
know this is the thing i know perfectly

1401
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,280
well that was a congruent reason as to

1402
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,200
why and then once they were in there and

1403
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,520
you saw the first one go

1404
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,970
oh i said and she casts thunder wave and

1405
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,640
you just saw everyone's face go ah

1406
00:49:18,970 --> 00:49:22,720
[Music]

1407
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,920
that's that moments you live for as a

1408
00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,319
deer

1409
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:30,800
yeah not level it up

1410
00:49:26,319 --> 00:49:31,680
no no not me enough yeah

1411
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,119
yeah

1412
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:36,640
yeah my players are still it's going to

1413
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:38,960
sound like they haven't left this bloody

1414
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,800
dungeon for years but we haven't played

1415
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,400
for two months so

1416
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,720
going through their

1417
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:48,319
cobalt dungeon and of course

1418
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:50,319
kobolds are also intelligent in quotes

1419
00:49:48,319 --> 00:49:52,640
clever enough to make traps devious yeah

1420
00:49:50,319 --> 00:49:55,200
yeah clever enough to know how to open

1421
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:59,359
the door and to run away when the [ __ ]

1422
00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:02,000
hits the fan but also quite low cr so

1423
00:49:59,359 --> 00:50:03,280
ostensibly or a large number of moocs

1424
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,599
so the combat we just finished before

1425
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:09,040
the holiday was uh one two three four

1426
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:10,839
five six seven eight nine ten enemies

1427
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,040
right off the top of my head eight

1428
00:50:10,839 --> 00:50:16,319
inventors uh

1429
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,880
a sorcerer a dragon shield

1430
00:50:16,319 --> 00:50:20,960
two giant weasels

1431
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,000
uh like that off the top of my head from

1432
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,800
memory

1433
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:29,119
that's what it was so there's that

1434
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:31,040
sounds so complex man [ __ ] man it was it

1435
00:50:29,119 --> 00:50:32,800
was quite it was quite cool to do the

1436
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,240
tactics again so like the dragon shield

1437
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,240
was kind of at the front blocking the

1438
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:38,160
tunnel into the room

1439
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:40,160
to stop the players kind of flooding in

1440
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,440
doing his job as a dragon shield that's

1441
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,800
their bread and butter

1442
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,040
again with

1443
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,559
the sorcerer behind just

1444
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,720
flinging stuff down the tunnel and

1445
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:52,400
surrounded by eight inventors just

1446
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:54,640
throwing flasks of acid and fire and

1447
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,880
generating wasps and

1448
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,559
doing all sorts of weird stuff my

1449
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,880
recommendation would be don't rely too

1450
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:03,680
heavily on inventors because they

1451
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:06,000
can do crazy weird complicated stuff and

1452
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,920
i ended up just being like okay they're

1453
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,400
just gonna throw a flask of fire or a

1454
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,319
flask of acid because i really

1455
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,000
really don't want to have to pull into

1456
00:51:12,319 --> 00:51:16,640
the table top

1457
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,240
another badger or another set of wasps

1458
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,880
or a snake

1459
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:22,800
because now i can't i'm at my limit with

1460
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,040
my mental capacity of how many stat

1461
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,240
blocks muffin to skip shuffle through

1462
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,680
yeah and one

1463
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:29,520
one of the players the death cleric he

1464
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,680
killed the dragon shield and basically

1465
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:34,640
like held up the corpse and said this is

1466
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:37,200
your defender and i've killed him so

1467
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:39,680
what do you think i'm gonna do to you

1468
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,359
and i was like thank [ __ ] for that

1469
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,040
because now i can just have half of them

1470
00:51:41,359 --> 00:51:44,800
run away here

1471
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,400
yeah yeah yeah

1472
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,200
i thought man that's great i'm gonna

1473
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:51,599
roll and yeah some past they're safe

1474
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:54,640
some were like no okay i'm either blind

1475
00:51:51,599 --> 00:51:56,559
or insane and enough to stay but a good

1476
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,520
three or four of them were like i'm a

1477
00:51:56,559 --> 00:51:58,880
head out

1478
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,720
i'm done

1479
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,760
which is which is kind of nice and i

1480
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:03,520
think

1481
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,240
quite in theme

1482
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:09,280
of non-dragon shield kobolds to be like

1483
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:11,119
okay nope he was our world's mightiest

1484
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,359
hero and

1485
00:52:11,119 --> 00:52:15,040
i'm gonna nope out of here he's now

1486
00:52:13,359 --> 00:52:17,440
getting decapitated i'm just sticking

1487
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,359
around to see um yeah

1488
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,960
just so

1489
00:52:19,359 --> 00:52:23,680
this is something that

1490
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,280
that has only very recently happened in

1491
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,440
in the campaign

1492
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,760
so so the the thing i'm going to try and

1493
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,000
get at here is that the

1494
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,640
pc progression throughout the game in a

1495
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,319
narrative sense in this one so when my

1496
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,680
characters started out

1497
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:38,960
basically i tracked them all together

1498
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,480
and they just had to do the thing

1499
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,079
because you've got to do this thing to

1500
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,640
get home you ain't in kansas anymore

1501
00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:46,000
that's my i love that way of running it

1502
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,559
because it avoids so many of the

1503
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,720
problems of the character motivation you

1504
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:53,920
just give them something that all of

1505
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:55,359
them have to do in order to be able to

1506
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,359
carry on being the people that they

1507
00:52:55,359 --> 00:52:59,200
wrote their characters as that that

1508
00:52:57,359 --> 00:53:02,480
sounds harsher than it is what it is is

1509
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:04,160
getting home usually for me yeah so

1510
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,800
when they started out

1511
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,599
they were very reluctant to take on any

1512
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,760
of the problems for this world and these

1513
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:14,400
uh this population that they'd found

1514
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,920
themselves in because they were just

1515
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,079
only interested in getting home so the

1516
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,559
first part of their arc was oh we've got

1517
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:22,079
to go and kill this bad guy and then

1518
00:53:20,559 --> 00:53:24,480
that's hopefully going to get us a step

1519
00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:25,440
closer to what our characters want

1520
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,640
fine

1521
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,800
as things have progressed npcs of

1522
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,920
various stripe have impressed more and

1523
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,559
more upon them

1524
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:36,319
just the the importance of the npc's

1525
00:53:34,559 --> 00:53:39,359
lives do you know what i mean

1526
00:53:36,319 --> 00:53:41,040
um and so they've gone from

1527
00:53:39,359 --> 00:53:42,960
just worrying about their party and

1528
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,000
themselves to

1529
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,240
now

1530
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,800
their latest little arc was they

1531
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:51,680
had to go and they rented rescued like

1532
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,839
500 600 prisoners from somewhere

1533
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:56,400
so now they're having to manage an

1534
00:53:53,839 --> 00:53:59,280
entire mini army

1535
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,440
that are fairly ineffectual in terms of

1536
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,160
giving them any help but that's their

1537
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,680
duty as heroes now which they're they're

1538
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,119
kind of taking on don't get me wrong

1539
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,440
this certain characters have been there

1540
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:13,839
they were still much more self-centered

1541
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:16,400
than the others but last session it was

1542
00:54:13,839 --> 00:54:18,480
just a brief one they got the group of

1543
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,559
prisoners and everyone to an oasis and

1544
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,720
were settling down for a long rest the

1545
00:54:20,559 --> 00:54:24,640
vast majority of it was the characters

1546
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:27,920
are peeing amongst themselves

1547
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,119
but just to kind of impress upon them

1548
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,960
the

1549
00:54:29,119 --> 00:54:33,760
the world building element of it there

1550
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,280
was a small attack by three undead dire

1551
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,000
wolves right so

1552
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:40,400
for level 11 characters three dire walls

1553
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,559
of cr1 that's

1554
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,880
really a cake walk there's there's

1555
00:54:42,559 --> 00:54:45,680
nothing actually it turned out to be a

1556
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,680
lot

1557
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,359
took longer than i expected because it's

1558
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,520
simply because of where they were on the

1559
00:54:49,359 --> 00:54:53,440
map people were a lot further away so

1560
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,359
they had at least a round if not a round

1561
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,839
and a half of fighting through a crowd

1562
00:54:55,359 --> 00:54:59,040
to get to where the actual problem was

1563
00:54:57,839 --> 00:55:01,440
and

1564
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,680
in that they're down a party member

1565
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:08,079
anyway who's dead in the ring of mine

1566
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:10,559
shielding but they fought and killed

1567
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:13,119
these dire wolves obviously pretty

1568
00:55:10,559 --> 00:55:14,960
goddamn easily but while they were doing

1569
00:55:13,119 --> 00:55:16,480
it one of the dire wars was savaging an

1570
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,000
npc

1571
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,880
and

1572
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,240
the last thing that happened

1573
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,240
was

1574
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:25,599
between the players go

1575
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:27,280
and the next players go you had the

1576
00:55:25,599 --> 00:55:28,319
direwolves and

1577
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,359
they

1578
00:55:28,319 --> 00:55:32,640
killed the guy this this npc that they

1579
00:55:31,359 --> 00:55:33,760
were savaging

1580
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,799
and so

1581
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,640
the combat ended everyone way we killed

1582
00:55:36,799 --> 00:55:42,240
the wolves

1583
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:44,079
but i reiterated that the npc's wife who

1584
00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:46,480
had just watched all of this

1585
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:49,839
was crying and

1586
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:53,200
so there is a progression there from

1587
00:55:49,839 --> 00:55:55,599
in motivation for the characters because

1588
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,599
straight away they started beating

1589
00:55:55,599 --> 00:55:59,040
themselves up a little bit at least

1590
00:55:57,599 --> 00:56:01,119
certainly one character did one of the

1591
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,760
newer characters but all of them did go

1592
00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:05,280
ah we could have done that slightly

1593
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,280
differently

1594
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,200
and so now they're not just it's not

1595
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,760
just oh we've won the battle

1596
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:14,880
there are these extra

1597
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,880
motivations and extra objectives and

1598
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,760
utilizing those

1599
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,960
in order to make encounters harder can

1600
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,160
progress

1601
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:26,319
your world can progress your characters

1602
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,720
like your npc's

1603
00:56:26,319 --> 00:56:30,880
involvement but also progresses your

1604
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:32,799
character's ability to play and their

1605
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:36,079
motivations

1606
00:56:32,799 --> 00:56:37,520
for that pc as well so i can't ever

1607
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:39,440
understate

1608
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:43,359
the importance of those kind of little

1609
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,640
narrative things for progression as well

1610
00:56:43,359 --> 00:56:46,240
yeah that's

1611
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,200
a really nice way

1612
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:49,680
of

1613
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,760
having that motivation

1614
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,680
in addition to the setting motivation

1615
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,520
you described at the beginning

1616
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:58,799
and something i need to work on a little

1617
00:56:55,520 --> 00:57:00,880
bit more myself i've been too relying on

1618
00:56:58,799 --> 00:57:03,200
implicit motivation of

1619
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,280
there's a big bad he needs to be stopped

1620
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,359
where my a couple of players have quite

1621
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,799
rightly been like i don't really care

1622
00:57:07,359 --> 00:57:11,440
too much

1623
00:57:08,799 --> 00:57:13,280
and i've probably lent on

1624
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,079
them meeting me three quarters of the

1625
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,160
way

1626
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:17,359
a little bit more than i should have had

1627
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,960
so

1628
00:57:17,359 --> 00:57:22,000
i've written this story so you should

1629
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,520
care about it obviously i think that's

1630
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,160
filling in the edges i mean i'm always a

1631
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,680
massive fan of grimdark so i mean like

1632
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,280
you can go too far the other way with

1633
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,200
that as well and then like everyone's

1634
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,799
just like well look if it's all if it's

1635
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,480
all going horribly wrong all the time

1636
00:57:32,799 --> 00:57:35,920
anyway i just don't care and i want to

1637
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:39,359
save my skin which means you're back at

1638
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:41,760
square one again but just having npcs

1639
00:57:39,359 --> 00:57:44,640
that they care about and just having

1640
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:47,119
those little minor stories

1641
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,440
of mundanity because the thing that's

1642
00:57:47,119 --> 00:57:51,599
happened at the end as silence kind of

1643
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,960
spreads across the crowd

1644
00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:56,720
and you hear the woman crying that's

1645
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,000
just lost her husband

1646
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,200
and that

1647
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,799
all of a sudden there's like oh this

1648
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,280
reiterates the

1649
00:58:02,799 --> 00:58:07,200
motivation for why we are doing this

1650
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,480
thing that we're doing

1651
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,960
interesting just sorry this is a

1652
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:13,040
complete aside and just a little

1653
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:16,160
talking about literal progression

1654
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:18,079
slightly forgot that uh 600 people

1655
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,319
walking through a desert is gonna go

1656
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:22,559
slightly slower than uh

1657
00:58:20,319 --> 00:58:25,119
five party members did like going

1658
00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:26,480
through the desert so i had to retcon

1659
00:58:25,119 --> 00:58:28,000
briefly the other session and say no

1660
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,640
sorry you didn't move three hexes you

1661
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:32,480
actually moved half of one

1662
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,839
so occasionally you got a roll back back

1663
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,240
progression but

1664
00:58:33,839 --> 00:58:38,880
yes yeah one of the things i was gonna

1665
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:40,720
talk about was physically moving forward

1666
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,799
through the world but we're almost at

1667
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,359
time so i think i'll save that one for

1668
00:58:42,799 --> 00:58:48,000
uh geography which is a topic coming up

1669
00:58:45,359 --> 00:58:49,599
in a later episode at some point i think

1670
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,680
i'll be a good fit for there but one

1671
00:58:49,599 --> 00:58:53,599
thing i wanted to mention and you

1672
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,760
brought it up earlier on was

1673
00:58:53,599 --> 00:58:57,839
dm progression so we've talked an awful

1674
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,839
lot about characters and a fair amount

1675
00:58:57,839 --> 00:59:00,640
about player progression

1676
00:58:59,839 --> 00:59:02,880
but

1677
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:05,200
not so much about dm progression so my

1678
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:07,119
question to you would be how do you

1679
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,079
think you've progressed as a dungeon

1680
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:10,060
master

1681
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:12,079
i've got a hell of a lot lazier

1682
00:59:10,060 --> 00:59:14,400
[Laughter]

1683
00:59:12,079 --> 00:59:16,880
much much later there's a meme that i

1684
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,680
saw a little while ago which was just

1685
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:21,280
like it's so perfect and it's the the

1686
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:25,280
gist of it is

1687
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:27,680
uh me prepping for my first campaign and

1688
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:30,079
i think it's the woman with all the uh

1689
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:33,040
the kind of algebraic symbols across her

1690
00:59:30,079 --> 00:59:34,799
face or the guy with all of the the um

1691
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,559
the conspiracy theory guy with all the

1692
00:59:34,799 --> 00:59:38,400
things on the walls all the strings

1693
00:59:36,559 --> 00:59:40,319
coming out of them it's me prepping for

1694
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,880
my first campaign and then the next one

1695
00:59:40,319 --> 00:59:43,520
is me prepping for my latest session and

1696
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,079
it's

1697
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:49,760
i've got a notepad it says frog in a top

1698
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:49,760
hat this is going to be incredible

1699
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:55,520
so i think one of the things is that i

1700
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,200
have become quite a lot more relaxed

1701
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,680
once i've got the overall story arc

1702
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:02,640
there i'm a lot more happy with winging

1703
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:05,440
it and and letting the players drive

1704
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:06,799
each session um for me there was a

1705
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:10,319
tendency

1706
01:00:06,799 --> 01:00:12,720
i think to think that i had to plan

1707
01:00:10,319 --> 01:00:14,240
everything out i'd probably go to

1708
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:17,680
swinging like i say way too far the

1709
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:19,520
other way now but at the same time

1710
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,520
however much planning you do your

1711
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,960
players are always going to come in and

1712
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,599
dick it up

1713
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:28,480
so one of the things is i plan less and

1714
01:00:25,599 --> 01:00:30,319
i'm more happy with rolling with

1715
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,400
players motivations are and how they

1716
01:00:30,319 --> 01:00:34,960
affect the world because that's one

1717
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,240
thing i real really really

1718
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,640
champion

1719
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:41,359
not being too strict on your planning

1720
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:43,440
for is that you do have that ability to

1721
01:00:41,359 --> 01:00:46,079
flip on a dime and change the

1722
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:50,079
motivations of every change the

1723
01:00:46,079 --> 01:00:51,359
responses of the world to the pcs you

1724
01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:52,960
don't want to go too over the top of

1725
01:00:51,359 --> 01:00:56,799
that either but

1726
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:59,359
um so that's one way that i've got it i

1727
01:00:56,799 --> 01:01:01,920
think i pressurized myself less as well

1728
01:00:59,359 --> 01:01:04,319
that first the first time when i

1729
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,280
had my first session and they were in a

1730
01:01:04,319 --> 01:01:07,359
pub

1731
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:09,119
and they had to go and speak to somebody

1732
01:01:07,359 --> 01:01:10,240
and they'd gone in there and they'd kind

1733
01:01:09,119 --> 01:01:11,200
of chatted to him for a couple of

1734
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,040
seconds

1735
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,960
and they'd done a small amount of

1736
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:17,440
interaction with each other and then

1737
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:19,440
they looked at me

1738
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:22,880
and i looked back at them

1739
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:26,319
and they looked at me and i went ah

1740
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:30,000
oh god they need something to happen now

1741
01:01:26,319 --> 01:01:32,160
yes um that i think i don't really get

1742
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:34,720
and in fact this last session a lot of

1743
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,400
it was i felt don't get me wrong i

1744
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:39,200
massively enjoyed it but a lot of it was

1745
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:41,119
me kind of going

1746
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,680
are you going to have a long rest now so

1747
01:01:41,119 --> 01:01:45,760
that we can do tomorrow um

1748
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,280
and the players like no no we're going

1749
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:50,240
to sit around the campfire talk for

1750
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,839
another 45 minutes

1751
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,040
fine in that case i'm going to roll down

1752
01:01:51,839 --> 01:01:54,319
the cigarette have another beer and i'm

1753
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,559
going to sit back and just listen to

1754
01:01:54,319 --> 01:01:59,760
equip at each other and so i think i

1755
01:01:56,559 --> 01:02:01,359
pressurized myself less um depends on

1756
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,200
your kind of dm style and very much

1757
01:02:01,359 --> 01:02:04,079
depends on your tables with all of these

1758
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,119
things

1759
01:02:04,079 --> 01:02:07,839
but

1760
01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:09,760
that's certainly one way where i've

1761
01:02:07,839 --> 01:02:11,039
progressed as a dm

1762
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,359
i think

1763
01:02:11,039 --> 01:02:15,599
you're probably lazier because you're

1764
01:02:13,359 --> 01:02:17,760
more confident in your ability to make

1765
01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:20,720
up so you have to do less up front prep

1766
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:23,359
anyway exactly yeah yeah and

1767
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:26,319
that's very very much part of it also

1768
01:02:23,359 --> 01:02:29,680
i've already got the basic framework and

1769
01:02:26,319 --> 01:02:32,559
also that basic framework has had to

1770
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:34,799
mold and change as i mean occasionally

1771
01:02:32,559 --> 01:02:37,280
we've had new people join the table but

1772
01:02:34,799 --> 01:02:38,000
more importantly than that i think as

1773
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,520
the

1774
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,520
characters have done things that i

1775
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:44,240
didn't expect them to do so the world's

1776
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:46,400
progressed because of them

1777
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,079
how about you man what's your what's

1778
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,680
your feeling in your progression as a dm

1779
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:50,400
where where did you start where are you

1780
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:51,839
now

1781
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,480
yeah i see this isn't how the podcast

1782
01:02:51,839 --> 01:02:57,760
works i'm it's my program of the host to

1783
01:02:54,480 --> 01:03:00,880
not answer difficult questions

1784
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:04,240
you've got a lot lot meaner

1785
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:06,240
yes yeah that that's true

1786
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:10,160
now i know how it feels for my guests

1787
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:11,920
when i ask them tricky questions uh

1788
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,119
i don't know that that is a difficult

1789
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,640
one it's one of those ones that's like

1790
01:03:13,119 --> 01:03:16,559
you know a uh

1791
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:18,079
if you boil a frog it doesn't it doesn't

1792
01:03:16,559 --> 01:03:20,480
know it doesn't jump out it's one of

1793
01:03:18,079 --> 01:03:22,400
those things where it takes so long

1794
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:25,760
you don't notice the subtle

1795
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:29,200
differences and the subtle changes

1796
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:31,520
in some ways i am a lot more relaxed

1797
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,119
but in other ways i'm a lot more

1798
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,240
strict presumably because you know the

1799
01:03:33,119 --> 01:03:36,799
rules better

1800
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,960
yeah and it kind of equals out in the

1801
01:03:36,799 --> 01:03:39,839
end so let me elaborate a little bit

1802
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,319
more

1803
01:03:39,839 --> 01:03:44,880
so i'm a lot more lacks around

1804
01:03:42,319 --> 01:03:47,520
like you said about making sure things

1805
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:52,000
happen in a pre-determined

1806
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:54,799
fashion i'm a lot more carefree and

1807
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:58,640
the players can do what they want and

1808
01:03:54,799 --> 01:04:01,359
a lot more capable to allow that and

1809
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:03,359
enable and facilitate that kind of play

1810
01:04:01,359 --> 01:04:05,440
whereas at the beginning it's as you

1811
01:04:03,359 --> 01:04:07,520
said it's a lot more i need you to speak

1812
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,280
to this guy at the end because i'm a bit

1813
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,280
scared and the book says you need to

1814
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,400
speak to the guy at the end and i don't

1815
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,240
know what i'm going to do if you don't

1816
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,839
speak to the guy at the end

1817
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,920
and it might not be that that's an

1818
01:04:15,839 --> 01:04:20,640
extreme example but

1819
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:22,640
that thought process happens a lot more

1820
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:25,359
a lot smaller but a lot more frequent

1821
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,920
which obviously colours and

1822
01:04:25,359 --> 01:04:29,920
shapes the game you play and once you

1823
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:33,440
get rid of the burden

1824
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:35,520
of that self-imposed anxiety

1825
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,119
it becomes a lot more flexible and

1826
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,799
free-form yep

1827
01:04:37,119 --> 01:04:41,039
now on the other hand

1828
01:04:38,799 --> 01:04:43,200
i'm more strict

1829
01:04:41,039 --> 01:04:45,839
when it comes to

1830
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:48,480
spells and when it comes to things

1831
01:04:45,839 --> 01:04:50,160
players can do

1832
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:53,599
and

1833
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:55,680
yes i like rule of cool and

1834
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:57,039
yes i don't mind people

1835
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:59,599
kick flipping and

1836
01:04:57,039 --> 01:05:01,760
backflipping around and

1837
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:05,440
doing all sorts of weird and wonderful

1838
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:07,760
stuff but i have a couple of very clear

1839
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,799
internalized rules

1840
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,319
i don't know whether it'll be good or

1841
01:05:08,799 --> 01:05:13,839
evil but i'm definitely lawful dm

1842
01:05:12,319 --> 01:05:14,720
right yeah

1843
01:05:13,839 --> 01:05:16,000
and

1844
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,039
i really don't want players to do

1845
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:20,000
something which would give them an

1846
01:05:17,039 --> 01:05:22,319
unfair advantage over their peers

1847
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,599
yeah so i don't want the rogue to be

1848
01:05:22,319 --> 01:05:26,720
able to get

1849
01:05:23,599 --> 01:05:28,640
advantage on every hit it makes because

1850
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,119
he does it in a flashy way because his

1851
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:34,000
acrobatics is so high right and i'm

1852
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:36,000
super paranoid of opening that door

1853
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,599
and also i don't want to give advantage

1854
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,760
to more charisma based people who are

1855
01:05:37,599 --> 01:05:41,359
better at talking in real world because

1856
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,200
you're giving them an in-game benefit

1857
01:05:41,359 --> 01:05:45,440
for their out-of-game

1858
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:48,319
benefit which i know is hypocritical

1859
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:50,640
because i'm literally doing that to the

1860
01:05:48,319 --> 01:05:52,720
most extreme it can be with my

1861
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:54,559
with my level up carrot

1862
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,760
but

1863
01:05:54,559 --> 01:05:57,680
some people are more charismatic than

1864
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,839
others and they have less control over

1865
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,440
that everybody has control over reading

1866
01:05:59,839 --> 01:06:03,359
the [ __ ] rules

1867
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,799
yeah yeah and and i think you're you're

1868
01:06:03,359 --> 01:06:06,079
maybe being a little bit harsh yourself

1869
01:06:04,799 --> 01:06:08,640
there in that

1870
01:06:06,079 --> 01:06:10,559
you're the one dm the table is a group

1871
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:12,000
of players there's nothing to stop

1872
01:06:10,559 --> 01:06:13,599
somebody who's about to try and do

1873
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:17,200
something stupid just to get one of

1874
01:06:13,599 --> 01:06:17,200
their fellow party members to go wait

1875
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:23,920
there's i mean unless you're really

1876
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:25,760
really really [ __ ] hot on no conversing

1877
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,359
um in which case you are basically

1878
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,920
putting it down to the stupidest person

1879
01:06:27,359 --> 01:06:31,920
on the table to the worst memory to

1880
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,119
carry the rest of them to that next

1881
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:36,160
thing

1882
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:37,440
yeah no it's it's fine i'm not like this

1883
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,960
i hate this episode because it makes me

1884
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,599
sound like the world's

1885
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:44,720
worst dm i'm like the step-dad that's

1886
01:06:41,599 --> 01:06:46,799
come in and said no games past 6 p.m and

1887
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,960
bed at seven kind of thing but it isn't

1888
01:06:46,799 --> 01:06:50,079
really like that and my players will

1889
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,039
attest

1890
01:06:50,079 --> 01:06:52,400
uh

1891
01:06:51,039 --> 01:06:54,160
you're trying to you're trying to get

1892
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,920
them to work together as a team as well

1893
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:58,240
and have all of the elements working

1894
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:59,440
because if you've got two three people

1895
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,039
that know the rules that are carrying

1896
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,160
the party it's gonna be tiring for them

1897
01:07:01,039 --> 01:07:04,880
as well man

1898
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:06,400
yeah yeah there's that mental overhead

1899
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,720
isn't there of

1900
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:12,480
kind of having to work

1901
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:15,599
1.25 players exactly uh yeah so i'm

1902
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:17,839
really quite strict on spell intent and

1903
01:07:15,599 --> 01:07:19,520
you know the rules as a balanced

1904
01:07:17,839 --> 01:07:21,200
mechanic

1905
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:24,400
so i don't want

1906
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:27,440
one person to become overpowered because

1907
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:30,640
one time they did that spetsnaz backflip

1908
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:32,799
hat [ __ ] throw and it got them a plus 10

1909
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:34,559
to their hit because then

1910
01:07:32,799 --> 01:07:37,119
even the wizard's gonna want to do a

1911
01:07:34,559 --> 01:07:38,400
spetsnaz backflip magic missile throw

1912
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:39,440
because it will give them more damage

1913
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,400
and then everyone's back flipping

1914
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:43,920
everywhere and now it's just dumb

1915
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,960
you'd come on to a similar thing with

1916
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,599
the

1917
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:49,920
if you [ __ ] the monster once then

1918
01:07:47,599 --> 01:07:52,480
everybody constantly tries to ham every

1919
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,920
thing they come across

1920
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,839
the ironic thing is a lot of that stuff

1921
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:58,319
already exists in the game

1922
01:07:55,839 --> 01:07:59,359
like if you wanted to hamstring monsters

1923
01:07:58,319 --> 01:08:00,559
then you go

1924
01:07:59,359 --> 01:08:01,839
a fighter

1925
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:05,280
and there's

1926
01:08:01,839 --> 01:08:07,760
maneuvers and feats and stuff that allow

1927
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,440
you to do that yeah and there's rogue

1928
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:10,880
subclasses that allow you to get

1929
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,880
advantage if you do

1930
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,240
certain things and

1931
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,839
like monsters have stuff that means if

1932
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:18,560
they move 10 foot in a turn they do like

1933
01:08:15,839 --> 01:08:20,319
a ramming thing i'd be open to

1934
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:22,880
officially home brewing that as a fee if

1935
01:08:20,319 --> 01:08:24,799
it doesn't already exist but

1936
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:26,480
you can't just say every time someone

1937
01:08:24,799 --> 01:08:28,080
moves 10 foot forward

1938
01:08:26,480 --> 01:08:30,799
they ram because that's just going to

1939
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:33,600
completely throw off

1940
01:08:30,799 --> 01:08:35,839
the kind of delicate action economy and

1941
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,359
balance of the game

1942
01:08:35,839 --> 01:08:38,960
no absolutely man

1943
01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:41,920
yeah so i'm probably a little bit more

1944
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:44,319
tougher on that as as i've grown i hope

1945
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,679
it's for the overall betterment it might

1946
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:46,960
not seem like it

1947
01:08:45,679 --> 01:08:50,000
but it is for the

1948
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:53,199
overall betterment and

1949
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:54,400
yeah i just think a lot more capable is

1950
01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:56,239
my

1951
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:59,040
really shitty answer that means

1952
01:08:56,239 --> 01:08:59,040
absolutely nothing

1953
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,799
i mean that's what you've all we can aim

1954
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:05,359
for isn't it

1955
01:09:02,799 --> 01:09:07,600
yeah being more capable and

1956
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,480
the other thing is progression doesn't

1957
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,759
end

1958
01:09:08,480 --> 01:09:15,279
as well it is a is that that bar that's

1959
01:09:11,759 --> 01:09:17,440
constantly ahead of you you can always

1960
01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:19,440
get better there's that thing of um

1961
01:09:17,440 --> 01:09:22,560
we have no idea when the upper limits of

1962
01:09:19,440 --> 01:09:24,319
a person's efficacy

1963
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,159
there are definitely ways that i can

1964
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:27,839
improve and i think

1965
01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:29,679
that is probably

1966
01:09:27,839 --> 01:09:31,520
the biggest thing you can have at the dm

1967
01:09:29,679 --> 01:09:32,960
is the self-awareness to identify where

1968
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,640
you can improve which now makes me sound

1969
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:37,279
super big headed as well

1970
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,719
which is great um

1971
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:40,239
but it's true if you don't know your

1972
01:09:38,719 --> 01:09:41,040
flaws you don't know where you're going

1973
01:09:40,239 --> 01:09:42,400
do you

1974
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:45,440
yeah

1975
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:47,679
yeah so there's i know where i'm proving

1976
01:09:45,440 --> 01:09:48,719
thanks to my players and having some

1977
01:09:47,679 --> 01:09:50,560
time off

1978
01:09:48,719 --> 01:09:53,040
over the holiday period i've come back

1979
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:55,120
and have quite a clear two or three

1980
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,320
points where i'm going to say okay

1981
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,800
this is this is the homework that i've

1982
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:01,600
done over the holiday period and it's

1983
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:03,360
intense to give you guys a better time

1984
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,880
so i am gonna

1985
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:07,520
make things less

1986
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,480
obscure almost for the sake of obscuring

1987
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:11,679
because

1988
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:12,800
confusion and an obscurity doesn't mean

1989
01:10:11,679 --> 01:10:14,560
mystery

1990
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:17,120
or a fun time

1991
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,560
it just means people are lost and a bit

1992
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:21,520
baffled

1993
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:23,520
which again breaks immersion yeah yeah

1994
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:26,080
exactly so i'm gonna

1995
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,360
start i was always super paranoid of i

1996
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:29,199
don't wanna give my players too much

1997
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,880
because it'll be too easy and it'll be

1998
01:10:29,199 --> 01:10:33,280
like baby's first

1999
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:35,120
campaign but i think probably every dm

2000
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,719
at some point is that to google you know

2001
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,520
riddles for children

2002
01:10:36,719 --> 01:10:39,040
and

2003
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,800
realize that when you're really playing

2004
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:43,280
at the game and you know maybe it's

2005
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:45,040
after work and or maybe people have had

2006
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:47,679
a few drinks not everyone's

2007
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,719
operating at crisis capacity yeah yeah

2008
01:10:47,679 --> 01:10:51,120
exactly

2009
01:10:48,719 --> 01:10:53,600
you've got a lot more leeway to

2010
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:56,320
really kind of lampshade hang

2011
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:59,040
a few things and it still be

2012
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,880
you know gratifying experience yeah

2013
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:02,640
magic items is something i'm going to be

2014
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,560
a bit more generous with because i have

2015
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:06,320
been singing b you and i have discussed

2016
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,080
how they can be a kind of a soft

2017
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:11,120
progression for the character without a

2018
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:14,000
hard level up yep kind of arbitrarily

2019
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:16,719
standing behind it yep on magic items as

2020
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:18,560
well man i would always say

2021
01:11:16,719 --> 01:11:21,520
almost build it like a character in like

2022
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:24,480
it's got benefit it's got a limit

2023
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:26,880
and give it a flaw as well

2024
01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:28,800
don't do that constantly but necessarily

2025
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:31,920
and don't make it a massive flaw but i

2026
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:34,719
just even a little quirk is always nice

2027
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,679
to add on to magic magic items so that

2028
01:11:34,719 --> 01:11:38,480
they're

2029
01:11:35,679 --> 01:11:40,640
they're not just a pure

2030
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:43,040
perfect thing there's always just this

2031
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:45,520
slight weirdness to them which adds to

2032
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:47,360
that but sorry that's more of an aside

2033
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:49,679
what makes makes them uh more

2034
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,800
interesting exactly just in the same way

2035
01:11:49,679 --> 01:11:52,080
that characters are more interesting

2036
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,840
when they've got

2037
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:56,480
foy balls and

2038
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:58,640
neuroses and stuff the magic items are

2039
01:11:56,480 --> 01:12:00,880
more memorable if they have

2040
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,960
something weird and wacky about them

2041
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:04,800
well dms are more interesting with what

2042
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,560
floors and fireballs are paranoid as

2043
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:09,679
well i think well we're hella

2044
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:13,040
interesting in that exactly

2045
01:12:09,679 --> 01:12:13,040
that's why i said it man

2046
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:18,000
wicked well i

2047
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,080
personally can think of a better way to

2048
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:23,840
end this episode

2049
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:25,440
than saying how great we are um

2050
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,239
so

2051
01:12:25,440 --> 01:12:28,960
um

2052
01:12:26,239 --> 01:12:30,320
what we'll do is we'll end it there

2053
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,159
unless there's anything specific you

2054
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:34,159
would like to add

2055
01:12:32,159 --> 01:12:36,000
no no i think we've covered without

2056
01:12:34,159 --> 01:12:37,520
going in for another hour and a half two

2057
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:39,199
hours i think we've we've covered quite

2058
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:42,560
a lot of ground there

2059
01:12:39,199 --> 01:12:45,280
uh yeah so thank you again jamie for her

2060
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:47,520
coming on the prestigious position of

2061
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:49,440
the first person to be on twice yeah

2062
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:51,440
thank you for having me man's pleasure

2063
01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:54,239
thank you all very much at home for

2064
01:12:51,440 --> 01:12:55,840
joining jamie and me on our

2065
01:12:54,239 --> 01:12:59,199
sometimes rambling journey of

2066
01:12:55,840 --> 01:13:00,640
introspection at some points and

2067
01:12:59,199 --> 01:13:01,520
yeah we've covered a whole bunch of

2068
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:02,400
stuff

2069
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:04,480
and

2070
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:06,560
i hope that people have come out the

2071
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:08,800
other side both players and dms having

2072
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,400
learned maybe at least one small thing

2073
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,360
that they might not have thought of

2074
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,760
before

2075
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:14,560
uh if you have thought of everything and

2076
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:17,600
think

2077
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:20,239
we are wrong then please drop me a

2078
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,679
message at any of my socials

2079
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:23,679
and i'd love to hear from you guys

2080
01:13:21,679 --> 01:13:25,530
otherwise thank you all for listening

2081
01:13:23,679 --> 01:13:30,720
and good night

2082
01:13:25,530 --> 01:13:30,720
[Music]