Progression

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to thinking critically

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a d and d discussion a podcast where we

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deep dive single word concepts or ideas

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within the dungeons and dragons 5e

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framework my name is danilo and i like

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all kinds of games and the crunchy

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mechanics that make him tick you can

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find me on twitter facebook and

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instagram and i'd really appreciate a

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like or a follow

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today

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is a very special episode as we are

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welcoming back

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a guest from a previous episode jamie

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mitchell hello who joined us on

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mistakes uh the episode wasn't a mistake

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it's a very good episode uh

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and that was all the way back in episode

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seven i say all the way back it's only

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halfway back

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so yeah welcome again jamie thank you

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very much cheers for having me again oh

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yeah so right we had

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a lot of fun i think it's it's it's

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simple to say and things didn't get a

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bit weird towards the end but yeah it

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was great

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it they got unique they got unique

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[Laughter]

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so i hope everybody knows what they are

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about to buckle up for with this one

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[Laughter]

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um yeah so

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today's topic is a bit

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nicer i suppose than mistakes today

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we're talking about progression

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so what does progression mean to you

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jamie within context the obvious thing

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that comes up is the different methods

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of progressing your characters through

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the game so the obvious one is the

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juxtaposition between traditional exp

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advancement uh versus milestone um it

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seems to me that the exp or xp

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progression tends to just pretty much

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almost just be a

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adventurous league thing now a an

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inverted commas professional game thing

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whereas most people that i've chatted to

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that are dming tend to stick to the

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milestone progression because there's a

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hell of a lot less maths for one thing

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um but also more than that i think it

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gives the dm an element of control

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in the

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you don't you don't get that classic

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thing if you kill a coal board when you

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hit level 11 and that's the one thing

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that pushes it up and not having to

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juggle through an entire party as well

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so that's the first thing that springs

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to mind really yeah yeah i think that's

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the low hanging fruit of

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progression of always a fan of low

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hanging fruit

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in indian d5e and yeah i like the

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implicit

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nature there of that we're not

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professional in the because we use

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milestones so we're just some amateur

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scrubs

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now

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in in the defense and this is really

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good timing in the defense of

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adventurers league and xp leveling i was

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reading only the other day

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in defense of adventurers league

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basically there was a an unpopular

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opinion on reddit that basically said

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adventurous league sucks and i don't

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know why it's a thing and so popular

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and the defense was basically

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it's a really good

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vehicle if you want to keep progressing

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with a character like if there's a

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character you really love and want to

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take from one to 20

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a.l is probably the only place you're

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really gonna achieve that because you

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can just drop in and drop out and join a

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different campaign in a different city

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with your same level 12 character that

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you've had from before so

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despite i mean i'm in the same school of

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thought as yourself with milestone

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leveling

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but i i never thought of it that way you

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know i never thought of oh hey i can i

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can really see how that's you know

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almost like carrying a character with

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you on a usb stick or probably literally

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with a digital character sheet and and

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just kind of being like oh hey here's

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the guy that i last played with in

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london and now we're here in southampton

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and

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he's he's followed me this whole way and

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i've seen him through it rather than a

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one-shot or yeah that's some i hadn't

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really considered that the i suppose one

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of the massive benefits with that

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incredible standardization that you get

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within uh exp and specifically in

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adventurous league is that

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it doesn't matter if that campaign that

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table falls apart because you do just

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pick up go to the next and because of

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that standardization you know that

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you're able to

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say keep progressing that character yeah

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so yeah that is that is good um i've not

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i don't think i've ever played at a

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table just with people that i didn't

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know i've always stuck with my kind of

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my core group which have been going a

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few years now so that for me it would be

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interesting i would

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if i was dming it i'd be scared for the

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players and if i was playing i think i'd

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be scared for the dm to be honest

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i think you got to be a certain

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type of player like

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you have to be super open-minded and

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super flexible as a player i think that

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if literally if i was the hand of god

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pulled up out of my chair now i dropped

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at a table with a character sheet i'd

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just try and hit the ground running as

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doing many areas of my life and just

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kind of be like okay let me read the

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table is this a serious face game or is

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this a stupid goofy game and then you're

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just gonna have to

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she's gonna have to go with it i think

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yeah the

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uh i think i probably and approach it

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from

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the opposite angle in the i sit down at

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the table try and assess the general

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mood and then try and prod it in a

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random direction i mean evidence at the

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moment playing through strad and

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yeah i mean i probably urinated more

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than most characters do in strad

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i don't i don't know whether i want to

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pull on that string or not

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i'm an omish wizard eccentric like he's

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he's crazy and he's unhappy and uh well

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i'm happy everyone's [ __ ] unhappy

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borrowing yet you know what i mean

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but

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there is that

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it depends on what the vibe of the table

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is because i can i try and i try and

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keep it within the realms of whatever's

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going on but also to try and expand out

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the palette you have on a table i mean

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it's getting quite off topic now but i

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suppose

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um there is also them of progression in

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that in the yeah that like they're

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progressing through the different styles

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of play that you get episode by episode

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or session by session rather sorry um so

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you've got that some sessions are

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very very serious other sessions are

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even quite joking even in within a

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fairly standardized table and a

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standardized setting

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here's the secret of my podcast though

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jamie is that

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the topics are so deliberately ambiguous

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that we can pretty much talk about

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anything and i can always tenuously link

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it back to the topic at hand so you're

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absolutely right by saying

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we're talking about progression of you

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as a a player almost at this point so

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yeah

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i wouldn't have i wouldn't have guessed

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that or thought that no i was completely

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under the spell

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[Laughter]

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so talking of you know that that low

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hanging fruit earlier on of xp versus

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milestone as i've mentioned i join you

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in that camp of milestone is

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better for the way i play my game

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i'd probably say nine times out of ten

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it's probably the way to go probably

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outside of al unless you're playing

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90 dungeon exploring and 10 social then

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maybe you'd want to go xp but otherwise

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i don't see why you would do you think

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that's driven by necessity and that you

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just look at the the leveling system and

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the exp and think that's a whole lot of

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math that i don't really want to do that

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can actually push players slightly

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further apart as opposed to

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to just being into okay you've done this

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large group task that i needed you to do

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so

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that

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yeah is it i think by necessity or is it

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because you think it works better do you

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reckon six of one and half a dozen of

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the other now i know there are

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disadvantages to milestone and the major

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one i hear is that basically you're

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giving more power to the dm and they

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already have like a shitload how much

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more power does a god need

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exactly there's just you could just keep

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pumping power into them and

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you know some players might already feel

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on the back foot you know at the whims

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at the mercy of the dms than to tie how

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powerful they are into just when the dm

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says they can get more powerful i can

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see why that might rub some people up

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the wrong way

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yeah and it's a you know that's a

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legitimate point and absolutely there'll

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be dms out there that

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put the carrot on the end of the stick

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and say go left or you won't level up

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yep you know it's it's a tool in there

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utility belt to railroad essentially

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as with all tools it's how they're used

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right something i'm only just thinking

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about as well actually is you've it does

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open quite a lot of um kind of option

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for

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massively favoring one play style so

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if your campaign or you as a dm lean to

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more toward more story driven

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then you could start only leveling

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players who engage with the game in a

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certain not only leveling players only

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leveling the party when certain players

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engage with the game in certain ways so

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yeah your barbarians out there

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one-handedly taken down to rasks but he

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never gets the level up session it's

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always your bard who

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has won over the heart of the local

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burger master or whatever local official

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so i can see actually yeah there's a

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there's a bit of potential for

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favoritism kind of

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messing things up there as well which

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i've really considered before yeah so i

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mean all that being said i think the

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drawbacks of xp

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vastly outweigh

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that

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one or two drawbacks of milestone so one

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is to answer your previous question yeah

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maths

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man i've already got way too much going

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on and that the last thing i want to do

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at the end of a combat encounter is go

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[ __ ] how much was that cobalt worth uh

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20 xp right let me plug that into my

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excel spreadsheet of

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numbers

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00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,519
you know i can see i can see that

280
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,680
working for savants where you're just

281
00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:37,519
really comfortable at doing incredibly

282
00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:40,800
quick maths and incredibly organized and

283
00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:42,800
totting it all up at once that is not me

284
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,480
yeah and also that

285
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,279
if you do it like that

286
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,880
you can't help but if somebody has to

287
00:10:47,279 --> 00:10:51,440
miss the session

288
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,440
which happens like no

289
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,279
game is perfect people always miss

290
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,160
sessions people can't make it for

291
00:10:55,279 --> 00:11:00,079
whatever reason and i can't imagine the

292
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,680
disappointment if that player were to

293
00:11:00,079 --> 00:11:03,760
return the following session and be like

294
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:06,640
oh everyone else leveled up

295
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,399
that's cool what did they do

296
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,720
oh it was i rolled on the random

297
00:11:08,399 --> 00:11:12,160
encounter and table and a couple of

298
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,440
giant spiders came out the forest they

299
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,160
killed them and that was enough to level

300
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,240
up oh yeah great

301
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,480
cool i guess i'll wait until we

302
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,440
fight some giant spiders and then i get

303
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:26,720
to level up too and i'm now permanently

304
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,880
behind the rest of the party cool great

305
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,800
yeah this is what this is where that

306
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,160
progression of different characters at

307
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,440
different times

308
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,519
yeah really

309
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,720
really can cause an issue i'd imagine

310
00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:41,360
within within that progression system

311
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,360
yeah i'm a huge fan of

312
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,600
maintaining parity and obviously the

313
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,360
simplest way to do that is by keeping

314
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,519
everybody the same level which is one

315
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,120
reason i'm also reticent to bring in say

316
00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:51,920
the deck of many things because that has

317
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,680
some

318
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,800
level adjustments

319
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:58,480
hidden in there which

320
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,279
i'm way too risk adverse to bring that

321
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,600
in

322
00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:03,680
yeah no i can imagine i've actually

323
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:07,279
given one of my players a deck of many

324
00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:08,959
things in a drunken fit of

325
00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:11,680
ridiculousness

326
00:12:08,959 --> 00:12:13,760
but luckily all the other players have

327
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:15,600
bullied the hell out of him

328
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,760
so much that

329
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,760
they every now and again he'll kind of

330
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,240
gesture to the pocket it isn't they'll

331
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,519
freak out at him so that's that's quite

332
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,800
good they manage themselves really

333
00:12:23,519 --> 00:12:26,800
comfortably with that actually

334
00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:30,240
yeah so

335
00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:32,399
yeah i just i just can't bother to deal

336
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,680
with the numbers when designing combat

337
00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:35,839
encounters is

338
00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:39,600
a pain in the ass enough

339
00:12:35,839 --> 00:12:42,079
at the other major detriment is

340
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,519
non-combat encounters should also still

341
00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:45,839
give xp

342
00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:48,880
yeah which is

343
00:12:45,839 --> 00:12:50,800
you you're already outside of

344
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,320
a framework to a certain extent there so

345
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,480
come counter will tell you how much xp

346
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,680
is worth two grand cool

347
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,000
done

348
00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:58,880
so there's a comic called order of the

349
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,040
stick

350
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,040
from the giants in the playground forum

351
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,639
um there's a webcomic and there's a

352
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,680
strip in there where

353
00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:09,279
the whole party levels up except the you

354
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,760
never know that he's chaotic evil but i

355
00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:14,480
mean he is chaotic evil halfling and the

356
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,160
entire party levels up and he's gutted

357
00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,200
because he doesn't level up

358
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,720
and then there's he does some silica

359
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,160
about how pissed off he is that you

360
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,200
haven't leveled up and then bing you

361
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,760
imagine levels up through the role play

362
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,480
is that that wonderful point of oh yes

363
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,800
so

364
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,959
even within that very

365
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:35,600
rigid and like i say standardized

366
00:13:32,959 --> 00:13:37,440
numbers based exp there is that uh

367
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,279
leeway given to the dm to basically

368
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,199
still go well if a player does something

369
00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:42,720
you particularly like then go for it

370
00:13:41,199 --> 00:13:45,519
then yeah which kind of which kind of

371
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,199
defeats the purpose right yeah it's like

372
00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:48,800
you know if i was in that position and

373
00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:49,680
the player mr game and they came back

374
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,120
and they were bummed out that they

375
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:53,440
didn't level up because the rest of the

376
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:56,720
guys killed some giant spiders i'd be

377
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:59,680
really really inclined to introduce

378
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,360
some like super on the nose you know

379
00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:03,839
encounter for them to talk their way

380
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,000
past or to have a moment to moment just

381
00:14:03,839 --> 00:14:07,199
so i'd have a reason an excuse to be

382
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,000
like oh well

383
00:14:07,199 --> 00:14:09,920
you

384
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,839
got round to that non-combat encounter

385
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,399
so you get some xp which surprise

386
00:14:11,839 --> 00:14:15,360
surprise levels you up ta-da and then

387
00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:17,199
you're just back to milestone

388
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,120
progression anyway so yeah it's just

389
00:14:17,199 --> 00:14:20,399
milestone xp that you didn't know

390
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,920
moleskine progression you didn't know

391
00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:24,000
was coming

392
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,120
yes yeah so i think all things

393
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,040
considered

394
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:30,560
and you're never gonna

395
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:33,120
escape the have we leveled up yet trope

396
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:35,120
in the same way you'll never escape the

397
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,600
i've got dark vision trope

398
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,199
so it doesn't matter which

399
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,480
yeah which method you pick you're always

400
00:14:39,199 --> 00:14:42,079
going to have that question from your

401
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,800
players of

402
00:14:42,079 --> 00:14:45,839
please sir can we level up yet

403
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,600
and

404
00:14:45,839 --> 00:14:49,839
shooting straight there is a little bit

405
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,560
of me that says you know what no

406
00:14:49,839 --> 00:14:52,560
[ __ ] you guys

407
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,920
i was gonna say actually generally the

408
00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,000
way that my table runs is that they

409
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:03,040
level up when they've bullied me to an

410
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,880
extent or i've got drunk and

411
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,040
uncharacteristically

412
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,160
kind

413
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,160
um

414
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,360
so yeah i mean

415
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,519
it's quite often i've i've skipped them

416
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,519
ahead not skipped ahead levels but there

417
00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:21,199
have been things where

418
00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:23,600
i haven't realized quite how long some

419
00:15:21,199 --> 00:15:25,760
part of the arc is going to take

420
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,240
and so i've planned for them to be at

421
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,079
certain levels at certain milestones

422
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,040
yeah and they're like but

423
00:15:30,079 --> 00:15:35,279
it's been it's been three months

424
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,040
yeah and we're bleeding and we're tired

425
00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:39,199
just give us something

426
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,320
yeah yeah it's it's a it's a

427
00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:44,160
double-edged sword for sure uh but you

428
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,399
know i think i i do think the benefits

429
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,079
outweigh the drawbacks but

430
00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:50,399
yeah sometimes i realize it and

431
00:15:48,079 --> 00:15:52,959
sometimes i do feel bad that wow okay

432
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:55,040
yeah i've as a dm i've misjudged how

433
00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:56,480
long this is going to take and you know

434
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,440
hands up my players haven't leveled up

435
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,880
and

436
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,920
i couldn't even tell you when they

437
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,040
leveled up

438
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,120
last

439
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,320
and it's purely because i'm

440
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,680
it's like

441
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:09,519
when you hoard potions in an rpg or you

442
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,360
hold on to your ultimate ability in a

443
00:16:09,519 --> 00:16:13,120
video game because you're waiting for

444
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,959
that just the right time

445
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,040
it's a bit it's a bit like that for

446
00:16:14,959 --> 00:16:18,000
milestone leveling up for me as a dm i'm

447
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,000
thinking

448
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,600
oh that was a hard battle but

449
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,959
i know that there's maybe a harder

450
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,800
battle on the encounter and that'll be

451
00:16:22,959 --> 00:16:26,720
more rewarding so let's let's just hold

452
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,199
on for that one before they level up and

453
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,360
then unbeknownst to me they go left and

454
00:16:29,199 --> 00:16:34,839
the encounter was right and oh well

455
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:37,759
that's six months of level seven

456
00:16:34,839 --> 00:16:39,279
sorry yeah no i know what you mean i

457
00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:41,759
think quite often what will happen is

458
00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:44,079
that they'll ask me then things will

459
00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:46,240
they'll grind hard for a couple of

460
00:16:44,079 --> 00:16:47,759
sessions because i've said no

461
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,959
um and whether that's a subconscious

462
00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:50,720
thing on the part of the players that

463
00:16:48,959 --> 00:16:52,800
they know that they've got to struggle

464
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,399
through a bit more or whether it's just

465
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,320
on me that i'm actually pacing them a

466
00:16:54,399 --> 00:16:59,199
little bit harder just so that when we

467
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,199
get to the end i can go and now you

468
00:16:59,199 --> 00:17:02,800
level up and to be to be honest as well

469
00:17:01,199 --> 00:17:04,640
that can even be

470
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,880
just a session of role play so they've

471
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,679
had the really hard battle you let them

472
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:12,559
chat out for an entire session and and

473
00:17:09,679 --> 00:17:14,000
and kind of decompress after the

474
00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:16,400
the main event

475
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,559
or the main event the main combat or

476
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,280
whatever encounter it may be and then

477
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,679
it's at the end of that

478
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,000
long rest or whatever where you go and

479
00:17:23,679 --> 00:17:28,079
then you can level up and that can give

480
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,160
a real sense of progression because not

481
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,360
only have they done the thing because

482
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,919
this is the thing if the bill had been

483
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:36,559
beaten the hell out of by whatever

484
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:38,880
high xp monster or mob that it is

485
00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:40,240
that at the end of that to go yep you've

486
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,679
been beating the [ __ ] out of you're all

487
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:45,360
on three uh hp and you level up seems a

488
00:17:43,679 --> 00:17:47,280
little incongruent with actually what's

489
00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:49,360
going on but yes having been able to

490
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,880
take a step back go god wasn't that

491
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,160
really hard

492
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,600
but now we've got to carry on and do

493
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,600
this other stuff

494
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,679
and then they level up seems to

495
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,440
narratively work a little bit better but

496
00:17:57,679 --> 00:18:02,000
i'm very very story driven with this

497
00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,760
stuff same but there was a point in

498
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,919
there you mentioned about leveling up

499
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,160
kind of like mid dungeon

500
00:18:05,919 --> 00:18:10,799
and it made me think about you know

501
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,880
mentioning about balancing encounters

502
00:18:10,799 --> 00:18:15,120
and if i design a dungeon i'm usually

503
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,960
designing the whole thing at once for

504
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:18,000
them as they are

505
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,520
today

506
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,160
and if you were running

507
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,200
xp based they could level up midway

508
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,320
through

509
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,720
and depending on the size of the party

510
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,840
make the next fifty percent of the

511
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,320
dungeon

512
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,720
redundant trivial this has happened to

513
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,679
me with boss battles several times man

514
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,240
um

515
00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:40,320
i say several times i'm not several but

516
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,000
there have been like big things that

517
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,799
they've worked up to and then they've

518
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,960
kind of bruised it because i'd put it as

519
00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:49,280
a hard deadly encounter of a little late

520
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,039
and then by the time they got there

521
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,480
because they'd had that really long

522
00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:54,559
grind before

523
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,080
i'd kind of leveled them up out of

524
00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:57,600
just because it seemed it seemed

525
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,919
appropriate

526
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,919
and then that has been a slightly

527
00:18:59,919 --> 00:19:04,240
underwhelming boss battle

528
00:19:01,919 --> 00:19:06,320
my campaigns tend to be there's a big

529
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,240
overall story but i'm quite good at

530
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,600
filling in random gaps because if you go

531
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,760
back to the mistakes episodes you'll

532
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,440
you'll see that i hadn't got bloody clue

533
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,400
what i was doing when i started

534
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,120
so

535
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,720
with that i'm quite good at going okay

536
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:19,840
right even though that boss and so

537
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,200
there's going to be a load more

538
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,120
challenges that you're going to hit

539
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,039
straight after that in order to make up

540
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:26,080
for it slightly

541
00:19:25,039 --> 00:19:28,400
yeah

542
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:31,280
as i said funnily enough in that episode

543
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:33,200
i'm way too prideful to just trivialize

544
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,200
50 of my dungeon

545
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,840
well the the alternative is

546
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,679
you have to design the dungeon

547
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,679
you just gotta add so much more overhead

548
00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:43,360
to yourself to preempt the level up so

549
00:19:41,679 --> 00:19:45,280
you kind of got to work out when they'll

550
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,120
level up during the dungeon to then up

551
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,000
the difficulty on the rest of the

552
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:52,080
encounters based on your prediction of

553
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,840
okay if they fought those three guys

554
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,120
then they'll level up here in this room

555
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,400
which means that

556
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:58,559
technically the encounters later on

557
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,559
they're at a higher level and then you

558
00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:02,799
open up yourself a whole can of worms of

559
00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,320
oh they only fought two of the guys oh

560
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,440
well the rest of the dungeons gonna kill

561
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,600
them so this is probably um

562
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,720
i just don't get it no i get it i

563
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,480
understand what you're going for this is

564
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:15,440
probably a little cheap

565
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,440
um but this is where i think your dm

566
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,200
tool bag of

567
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,760
basically explaining everything a way

568
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:24,559
with magic comes in because there's

569
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,280
nothing stopping you from saying ah and

570
00:20:24,559 --> 00:20:30,080
as you pass through the next portal

571
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,960
you enter the room all the doors lock a

572
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:35,120
gas is released and you'll undergo one

573
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,919
point take one point of exhaustion and

574
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:39,760
you can feel this poison is now making

575
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:41,760
it progressively harder you're gonna

576
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,919
keep getting exhausted the door in front

577
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,960
of you open so you can keep going but it

578
00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:47,520
means you've got to get to the end of

579
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,440
the dungeon get the antidote and whatnot

580
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,799
there's there's always ways that you can

581
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,320
make their lives

582
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:53,600
bloody hard

583
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,120
yeah

584
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,559
yeah i

585
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,520
but you know milestone leveling gets rid

586
00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:58,960
of all that

587
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,760
necessity

588
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:04,240
so i can see why i think as long as

589
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,760
you know it's not super stingy and it

590
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,320
makes sense and it hits those story

591
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,720
beats where it makes sense to do so and

592
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,720
not like oh we just got our asses kicked

593
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,840
here's a reward with a level up

594
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,760
yeah

595
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,520
so here's here's something that'll be

596
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,840
good to get your take on here's what

597
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,400
i've done so as i've mentioned many many

598
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,280
many times probably too many times that

599
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,360
my players uh not as ophed with the

600
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,320
rules as i perhaps would appreciate them

601
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:31,280
to be

602
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,120
so i tried a number of different methods

603
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,679
asking nicely kind of in-game

604
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:37,200
inspiration all the usual

605
00:21:35,679 --> 00:21:39,440
talking to them about it yeah all the

606
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,919
usual kind of things and i said you know

607
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,720
what i'm tired so here's what i'm gonna

608
00:21:41,919 --> 00:21:44,640
do

609
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,400
and this is probably

610
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,640
i'm gonna get lynched for this what i'm

611
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,000
about to say this taboo

612
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,559
of

613
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,720
i've tied their real world

614
00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:58,400
human being knowledge to their character

615
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,520
knowledge by saying if we can go three

616
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,760
sessions

617
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,280
without a rules question

618
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,159
you guys will level up

619
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,840
independent of the milestone system so

620
00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:10,640
theoretically you could level up twice

621
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,679
in one session okay so there you go if

622
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,600
anything is going to get you to learn

623
00:22:11,679 --> 00:22:15,280
the bloody rules it's going to be a free

624
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,039
level up yeah

625
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,799
yeah which is really going to come into

626
00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:20,559
play when we start after the holiday

627
00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:22,960
period when we return in a couple of

628
00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:24,240
weeks and it's one of those i may as

629
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,480
well get a little flip counter of my

630
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,559
wall to say sessions since last rules

631
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,720
question and it's pretty much sat on

632
00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:32,880
zero since we started playing

633
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,880
uh

634
00:22:33,919 --> 00:22:38,400
and it's i i keep the the funny thing is

635
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,320
i keep drawing attention to it i'm like

636
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,840
oh well that countless back down to zero

637
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,880
and somebody will be like what what

638
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,080
sorry what are you saying i'm like oh

639
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,880
the counter for your three level up that

640
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,159
you're not going to get for another

641
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,159
three sessions that's back down to zero

642
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:52,240
and uh you know this is making me sound

643
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:54,400
like some

644
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,840
benevolent evil

645
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,240
bastard

646
00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:00,960
let's just kept them all at level one 50

647
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,240
sessions in no not at all i'm i'm

648
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,120
talking about

649
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,919
do i get sneak attack as a level 8 rogue

650
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:07,919
or

651
00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:09,120
can i cast the spell no because that's

652
00:23:07,919 --> 00:23:11,280
not in your spell list and you're

653
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,159
already concentrating on another spell

654
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,640
okay

655
00:23:12,159 --> 00:23:16,559
i'm talking those kind of oh but he's

656
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,039
come into my space so i get an attack of

657
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:21,200
opportunity right no no

658
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:22,559
i'm talking those kind of questions just

659
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,880
just to make me seem like less of a

660
00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:26,720
bastard so would you

661
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,640
if they were discussing rules amongst

662
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,360
this is again heading off a little bit

663
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,600
but

664
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:33,600
it kind of isn't it isn't if say your

665
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,360
characters or your players one of them

666
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,080
tried to do something or was i was

667
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:39,600
trying to do some kind of maneuver and

668
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,279
one of the others said

669
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,039
oh no i don't think you can do that like

670
00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:44,799
does a little bit of rules lawyering and

671
00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:46,480
you don't have to get involved would

672
00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:47,760
that be all right like provided they

673
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,960
sort it out amongst themselves and

674
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,640
roughly know what they're doing that's

675
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,440
that would be good enough for you yeah

676
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,880
yeah i mean usually that doesn't really

677
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,919
happen because typically it's only in

678
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,039
combat

679
00:23:55,919 --> 00:24:01,840
so the spotlight is on that person so i

680
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:04,559
can't i can't not be involved as a dm

681
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,720
because i'm there waiting for them to do

682
00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:08,640
their bloody turn right so the moment

683
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,919
they can't do it for whatever reason i'm

684
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,000
like well that's

685
00:24:09,919 --> 00:24:14,000
you've impacted the game because you

686
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,039
haven't read the rules and that that's a

687
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,480
bad thing

688
00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:18,000
right you can't yeah

689
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,440
that's like driving without having

690
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,880
driving lessons and you're crashing into

691
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,320
a lamppost you've impacted everybody

692
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,799
else's thing because you haven't spent

693
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,480
the time to learn and just because no

694
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:27,840
one got hurt doesn't mean that you're

695
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,840
not a fool

696
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,600
yeah no i get that i think it's probably

697
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,520
table differences as well because i mean

698
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,400
i've got at least one character that's

699
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,400
pretty hard on the rules lawyering which

700
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,600
works for me sometimes other times i

701
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,799
have to be like

702
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,000
no

703
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:43,600
stop saying the things that you're

704
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,640
saying this is how this is gonna rule

705
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,039
anyway

706
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,720
yeah i should i should probably count my

707
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:51,440
blessings that i don't

708
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,440
have to worry about shutting people down

709
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,120
usually i'm asking for support

710
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,600
right yeah yeah

711
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:58,960
so i don't think there is a problem

712
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,039
because there's a couple of things going

713
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,600
on there one you've got to be able to

714
00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:05,360
have fun as the dm and if you feel like

715
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,039
you are having to

716
00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,679
board a line

717
00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:11,440
take characters goes for them almost

718
00:25:09,679 --> 00:25:13,600
like you're having to hand hold them

719
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,400
through till they get to the inevitable

720
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,640
choice for that turn god i can't imagine

721
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,520
much more boring than that the entire

722
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,360
fun of dming the thing is that's a lot

723
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,760
of it's having players screw up your

724
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,279
games and do weird and bizarre things

725
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,600
that you wouldn't have ever considered

726
00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:32,400
doing yourself so if you're having to

727
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,679
constantly manage that at the table then

728
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,520
to put

729
00:25:33,679 --> 00:25:37,919
because what you've done is you've got

730
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,240
carrot it's not like you've not offered

731
00:25:37,919 --> 00:25:43,760
them something it is this

732
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,120
free level up which is fantastic

733
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,640
however

734
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:48,720
at the same time there is the element of

735
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,039
stick there that unless you fulfill x

736
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,320
criteria you're not you're not going to

737
00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:56,559
get it so that is it is still putting on

738
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,159
player choice which is all about there's

739
00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:01,039
a slight argument like you've already

740
00:25:58,159 --> 00:26:03,279
made for the um oh you're not you're

741
00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:04,880
tying real world knowledge to the

742
00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:07,840
character knowledge

743
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,799
but it is a game there is a fairly

744
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,480
strong element there that you

745
00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:14,240
need to

746
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,159
you should be getting better at it time

747
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,919
on time um

748
00:26:16,159 --> 00:26:20,480
and again that you don't want to you

749
00:26:17,919 --> 00:26:22,880
don't want to rule out your your casual

750
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,720
in inverted commas player from that

751
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,400
there's always going to be one player at

752
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,120
your table that has slightly different

753
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,360
priorities for the rest that are that's

754
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:33,360
more interested in

755
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,880
playing the game just as a casual game

756
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:37,360
and a social

757
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,520
but if that's starting to impact either

758
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,039
the other players or your ability to

759
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,960
play within the game then you need to be

760
00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:44,480
able to to do something about it and if

761
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,080
you've got multiple players that are

762
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:50,960
doing this then a a solution which will

763
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:53,919
affect the whole party or cause the

764
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,840
whole party to have to work together

765
00:26:53,919 --> 00:26:57,600
as again argument is causing slight

766
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,080
friction and then there's also the thing

767
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,520
of you've got to be able to all have fun

768
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,120
there and if you're giving them the

769
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,039
option to do it it's not you're stopping

770
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,559
them from leveling up full stop this is

771
00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:07,600
an extra thing that they could get so

772
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:10,400
now i don't really see a problem with

773
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:13,120
that okay good that makes me feel better

774
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,360
i do i do often worry that i'm that evil

775
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:17,679
teacher of well if no one owns up

776
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:18,960
everybody gets the tension i mean that's

777
00:27:17,679 --> 00:27:20,720
to be fair that's kind of the

778
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,960
environment i want to breed i want the

779
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,720
other players to be like okay

780
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,279
learn the rules dude because i also want

781
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,279
this level up i want them to encourage

782
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:31,760
each other but then on the same breadth

783
00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:33,679
when that other person doesn't then

784
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,360
you're kind of implicitly punishing

785
00:27:33,679 --> 00:27:38,480
those that do want to learn so i don't

786
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:41,120
know there's pretty reams of theory and

787
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,080
academic work on

788
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:45,520
psychology in it yeah that i'm way

789
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,720
underqualified

790
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:52,640
to come on in any stretch group

791
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,720
psychology ah healthy dose of bullying

792
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,520
it's it's the it's the business it's my

793
00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:01,440
white collar management in me coming out

794
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,120
of being like do the work get rewarded

795
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,039
yeah yeah yeah no but i mean that's

796
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,320
that's how you get progression

797
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:09,600
yeah yeah

798
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,880
in a nice way it's a nice mirroring of

799
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,799
player progression versus their

800
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,559
character progression and you kind of

801
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:16,640
i'm trying to bend the lines together

802
00:28:14,559 --> 00:28:19,279
and make them match so as the players

803
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,480
get better the characters get better and

804
00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:22,480
you know as i said the alternative is

805
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,640
maybe one levels up and the others don't

806
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,399
but then i'm back into square one of

807
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,080
well then they have even less incentive

808
00:28:26,399 --> 00:28:29,039
to play because

809
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,159
they are

810
00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:33,279
behind inadverted quotes their peers so

811
00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:36,159
yes

812
00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:37,840
man it's a minefield it seems like such

813
00:28:36,159 --> 00:28:40,320
a benign

814
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:43,039
thing right leveling up in an rpg it's

815
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:46,159
just rote it's just

816
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:49,120
what most of the bloody game is and yet

817
00:28:46,159 --> 00:28:51,679
we've spent almost 32 minutes talking

818
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,679
about it and haven't even really

819
00:28:51,679 --> 00:28:55,600
discredited the surface but i mean this

820
00:28:53,679 --> 00:28:57,360
just shows you the massive

821
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,000
the the vast

822
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,919
kind of crevasse between

823
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,880
tabletop and

824
00:29:01,919 --> 00:29:07,600
computer game rpg because in a computer

825
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,399
game everything's done for you you get

826
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:14,000
you get to choose your progression path

827
00:29:10,399 --> 00:29:16,399
but in terms of the actual leveling up

828
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,520
well that's when you finish the level or

829
00:29:16,399 --> 00:29:20,640
in most rpgs when your character kills

830
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,399
all the things because you've got an

831
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,559
algorithm running the maths for you when

832
00:29:22,399 --> 00:29:26,159
it's on you that's a very very different

833
00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:28,159
level of responsibility that you've got

834
00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:29,360
to take on as the dm

835
00:29:28,159 --> 00:29:32,240
yeah i

836
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,399
i was never like a huge fan of

837
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,799
rpgs certainly more

838
00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:39,039
you know from japan and the like final

839
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:40,799
fantasies and whatnot i played them

840
00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:42,000
but now i'm thinking back there was

841
00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:44,080
always something

842
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,679
that never really sat right with me and

843
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,080
now i think about it it's probably the

844
00:29:45,679 --> 00:29:50,399
leveling up system because it it almost

845
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,000
seems redundant in a way

846
00:29:50,399 --> 00:29:53,919
so in the same way that i was talking

847
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,080
earlier on like you'd scale a dungeon to

848
00:29:53,919 --> 00:29:58,640
match the player's level

849
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,520
the enemies in an rpg are scaled to

850
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,840
match

851
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:04,399
where the designers think the characters

852
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:07,200
will be at that time based on an average

853
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:10,159
playthrough which again kind of defeats

854
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:13,919
the purpose those bosses in traditional

855
00:30:10,159 --> 00:30:16,159
rpgs are hard doors they're hard gates

856
00:30:13,919 --> 00:30:17,679
to say you cannot get past this unless

857
00:30:16,159 --> 00:30:20,559
your characters are

858
00:30:17,679 --> 00:30:22,240
x level yeah a certain level

859
00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:24,640
which is weird it's like don't don't

860
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:28,320
have levels then just

861
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:30,559
just just you do it as levels as in the

862
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,520
rather than a character level just the

863
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:36,080
actual level of the game

864
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,000
yeah or you another way to progress the

865
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,080
characters outside of

866
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,480
raw numbers and it's one of the reasons

867
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,000
i fell out of love hard with world of

868
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,240
warcraft is because that's the most

869
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,880
egregious example of like

870
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:52,000
if an npc has a skull next to it which

871
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,360
is probably copied from mmos before it

872
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,200
like that thing's just gonna one shot

873
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,000
you and it's just

874
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,919
it just

875
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,720
rubs me up such the wrong way that you

876
00:30:57,919 --> 00:31:03,120
can be a level like 50

877
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,880
arcane wizard but because you've gone

878
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,919
into the next area the [ __ ] frogs

879
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,919
will kill you

880
00:31:05,919 --> 00:31:09,840
right okay that sounds that sounds

881
00:31:07,919 --> 00:31:13,039
that's like if you say that like that it

882
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,279
sounds super dumb yeah really really um

883
00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:17,440
immersion breaking absolutely

884
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:19,279
and i think because you're very into the

885
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,399
total immersion within a character i

886
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:23,760
think that's one of the things that

887
00:31:20,399 --> 00:31:26,960
really grabs both of us about dnd

888
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,760
then something like that that does just

889
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:32,240
hits that well no this isn't realistic

890
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,799
this isn't congruent this is this is

891
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,320
breaking the story this is world

892
00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,840
breaking in the most

893
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,640
most um

894
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,000
egregious way then

895
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,279
yeah no i can understand that really

896
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,320
putting up i nearly brought up world and

897
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:49,120
warcraft because talking about

898
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,640
south park did that that a couple of

899
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,120
episodes and

900
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,200
sorry massive spoiler alert here but the

901
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,600
way that they eventually get to where

902
00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,559
they need to be in the end is by staying

903
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:03,360
in the safe place and killing pigs and

904
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:06,000
so there is that thing of just grinding

905
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,760
in order to get to level 100 or whatever

906
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,440
your system you're using

907
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,159
is

908
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,880
yeah no it doesn't doesn't sit right at

909
00:32:12,159 --> 00:32:15,039
all

910
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,159
no i'm like you can if you do if you run

911
00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:18,240
xp

912
00:32:16,159 --> 00:32:20,240
rules is written you can totally do that

913
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,679
indeed yeah like that person that's come

914
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,840
back after a week off because they've

915
00:32:21,679 --> 00:32:25,120
had a holiday and they're a level behind

916
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,480
the rest of the players like all right

917
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,720
we're going to go and see the wizarding

918
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,000
tower to find out what our next quest is

919
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,240
and that player's character can be like

920
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,080
yeah um i'm just gonna head outside you

921
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,679
know into the wilderness for just half

922
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,960
an hour just give me half an hour guys

923
00:32:35,679 --> 00:32:38,559
and then you have to

924
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,799
like the dm finds themselves in a

925
00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:42,399
position of running a one-on-one combat

926
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:45,679
with

927
00:32:42,399 --> 00:32:47,120
yeah just just to get his xp to level up

928
00:32:45,679 --> 00:32:48,880
yeah and then you're in you either do

929
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,120
that and everyone's bored or you just

930
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,519
say okay you did it and you leveled up

931
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,679
therefore defeating the purpose of

932
00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:58,799
xp based system again

933
00:32:55,679 --> 00:33:02,399
yeah no absolutely that's

934
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:04,559
yeah no i'm not not a fan of xp for at

935
00:33:02,399 --> 00:33:06,000
that myriad some reason there's probably

936
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:08,000
a couple others we haven't even touched

937
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,760
on that but yeah

938
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,840
yeah i think

939
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,399
i can see you know time and a place

940
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,559
adventurous league as we said yep it has

941
00:33:14,399 --> 00:33:19,120
a purpose and a lot of people get

942
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:21,919
enjoyment out of it but for pretty much

943
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:25,120
every home game i can't see how it works

944
00:33:21,919 --> 00:33:26,640
unless you're playing yeah like a super

945
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,159
mechanical

946
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,159
super

947
00:33:28,159 --> 00:33:32,000
like hex based

948
00:33:30,159 --> 00:33:34,399
game where

949
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,240
every single thing counts and the dm

950
00:33:34,399 --> 00:33:38,240
puts a hell of a lot of effort in

951
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,159
so fair play to the dm's that do that

952
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,039
because yeah pick up yourselves

953
00:33:40,159 --> 00:33:43,519
yeah

954
00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:45,519
also if you could write in uh if any of

955
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:47,200
you are good at doing taxes as well

956
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:48,720
because if you're calculating xp like

957
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,679
that you're probably pretty good at it

958
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,679
so i could use a hand there

959
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,600
yeah

960
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,200
i can't imagine doing that if you didn't

961
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,799
want to do it

962
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,720
yes yeah

963
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:03,760
okay i mean i add a few other bits and

964
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,200
bobs on xp and progression i think one

965
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,039
more thing before we move on to other

966
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,159
parts is that

967
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,399
most

968
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:13,040
campaigns are

969
00:34:10,399 --> 00:34:15,280
and i apologize in advance i can't start

970
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,200
my sources just at the moment but and

971
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,159
i've mentioned it on a previous episode

972
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:22,639
where most campaigns and games are the

973
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:24,720
bell curve is basically levels one to

974
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:26,960
say seven

975
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:29,760
and then it really bottoms out

976
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,760
until level 20 where it spikes again for

977
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,359
people playing one shots you know i was

978
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,280
trying to have fun level 20 character

979
00:34:33,359 --> 00:34:38,000
because we never get to level 20 right

980
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,320
and i was going to ask why do you think

981
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,440
that is why is there that banding so

982
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,399
strong why is basically levels like 11

983
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,679
to 20 just this wasteland where no one

984
00:34:46,399 --> 00:34:49,919
ever plays

985
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:52,879
i mean i really can't speak to that

986
00:34:49,919 --> 00:34:54,639
because i've played so many level 11

987
00:34:52,879 --> 00:34:56,320
games

988
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,240
and thanks for just proving me wrong

989
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,880
yeah i mean this is i think it's a table

990
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:02,480
thing though very much i think possibly

991
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,079
part of it is that

992
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,920
a lot of

993
00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:06,880
so people want to do an interesting

994
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,720
build

995
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,960
if you're a player that has been playing

996
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:13,040
for a while so okay

997
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,520
when you come in

998
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,720
you are

999
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,680
basically starting out playing the game

1000
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:18,960
you don't know what you're doing you're

1001
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,520
level one

1002
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,240
that means that you

1003
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,800
you kind of have to have that initial

1004
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:29,520
not too many rules to think about

1005
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,680
those tend to move very quickly those

1006
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,720
first couple of levels

1007
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,960
so

1008
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,000
when you are very first coming to the

1009
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,480
table

1010
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:42,400
for the first time ever as a player

1011
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:44,160
you need that very limited rule set in

1012
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,560
order to be able to actually just

1013
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,240
comprehend anything there there's almost

1014
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,440
that built-in

1015
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:53,599
way of helping the player learn the game

1016
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,359
at level one and two by the time you get

1017
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:56,640
to level three then you're actually

1018
00:35:55,359 --> 00:35:58,560
starting to be able to do some

1019
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,720
interesting [ __ ] that's obviously where

1020
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,920
the vast majority of classes come into

1021
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:05,280
their own

1022
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:08,160
so very first starting out that initial

1023
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:11,359
kind of first three levels is very much

1024
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,680
for teaching players to play then you've

1025
00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:15,280
got level three where if you would

1026
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,560
already played a few sessions and you

1027
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,880
were kind of comfortable then you can

1028
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,800
just drop in at level three and that is

1029
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,880
you you know you are a rogue you've got

1030
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,599
your roguey things you can do you know

1031
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,839
your um x y or zed your your character

1032
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:30,480
is already fairly solid and you can

1033
00:36:27,839 --> 00:36:31,680
you've got that smallish skill set that

1034
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,440
you can use but there's still

1035
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,119
specialized

1036
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:39,119
i think between three and you say seven

1037
00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:41,920
yeah it's it's around that point yeah

1038
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:44,240
that's quite easy to manage both as a

1039
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,160
player and as a dm there's not shed

1040
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,920
loads of rules it's still swinging

1041
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,680
enough to make it quite interesting as

1042
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,560
well for both of you

1043
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,960
and when you start getting up towards

1044
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,440
the mid level like as soon as you can't

1045
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,280
hit double digits then you are looking

1046
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,160
at something that players are quite a

1047
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:05,040
lot harder to kill um a level 10 party

1048
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,560
can steamroll some really high cr things

1049
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,200
if they're played with reasonable

1050
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,280
intelligence and get a few good roles in

1051
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,520
so i think it does become a lot harder

1052
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,920
for the dm around

1053
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,119
that double digit point

1054
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,480
also

1055
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:20,480
tables

1056
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,800
are fickle things sometimes they last

1057
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,400
sometimes they don't i'm lucky in there

1058
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,480
even throughout all of this lockdown

1059
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,560
we've just been able to move over to

1060
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,560
online i can see there's plenty of

1061
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,920
tables where that couldn't happen for

1062
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:36,400
whatever reason connectivity people just

1063
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,359
not having the technical wherewithal or

1064
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,280
the

1065
00:37:37,359 --> 00:37:41,359
all the interest because it is different

1066
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,280
if your players there just to have the

1067
00:37:41,359 --> 00:37:44,880
social and then all of a sudden actually

1068
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,720
what they're doing is sitting on a zoom

1069
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,640
call for four hours not getting a chance

1070
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:50,560
to talk and not having that human

1071
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,560
interaction i can see people not not

1072
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:55,440
wanting to switch over to that

1073
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:58,720
i think the the double digits to level

1074
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,800
20 is a kind of middle ground

1075
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,960
where your players have already got the

1076
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,280
knowledge where they could deal with a

1077
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,680
level 20 character

1078
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:10,560
so what's the point in missing out half

1079
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:13,119
the skill set if you're gonna drop it in

1080
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,960
my case though actually

1081
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:16,079
i either run run one shots at level

1082
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,920
three for players that don't really know

1083
00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:21,359
what they're doing um level 11 for my

1084
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,440
players that do know what they're doing

1085
00:38:21,359 --> 00:38:25,040
because that's a nice number to get a

1086
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,240
cool building

1087
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,720
you can you can get some really

1088
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:32,480
interesting interesting builds within

1089
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:34,320
there but it's not super stupidly op

1090
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,000
so i do run a lot of one shots at level

1091
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,920
11 actually

1092
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,760
but it's that seeing the thing all the

1093
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,480
way through because

1094
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:45,040
you can write a campaign but if

1095
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,440
everybody's engaging with it hard

1096
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:50,400
then your

1097
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:53,599
your one shot can take a month or in my

1098
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,839
case my six month campaign can take

1099
00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:58,560
three plus years

1100
00:38:55,839 --> 00:39:00,880
so i think there's there's that you it's

1101
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,000
kind of a it's kind of a no man's land

1102
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,440
because it's

1103
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,400
for people

1104
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,920
that

1105
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,160
really

1106
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,680
know the rule set this may be why you're

1107
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,440
having trouble with

1108
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,520
playing

1109
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,760
but people that know the rule set want

1110
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,839
to experiment and they're just going to

1111
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,200
have a play about with something

1112
00:39:17,839 --> 00:39:21,839
so i can only really speak to my own

1113
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,160
table on that one um but the progression

1114
00:39:21,839 --> 00:39:26,079
that i've seen from level one to level i

1115
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:29,520
think that level 11 now

1116
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:31,040
is just awesome you can't get it you

1117
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,440
can't get it

1118
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:37,770
really in any other way because the

1119
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:41,099
characters are fought to get there

1120
00:39:37,770 --> 00:39:41,099
[Music]

1121
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:51,440
i i i'm torn because i i think that'll

1122
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,599
always be in d for me

1123
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,680
a level of

1124
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:58,320
fourth wall breaking when it comes to

1125
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:00,560
levels up because it is so story and

1126
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,480
character based for me

1127
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,800
the fact that over the course of one

1128
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,640
night they wake up and become

1129
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,160
way more powerful

1130
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,720
on some levels

1131
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,640
it just just is weird to me like if they

1132
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:13,920
if they have a fight go to bed wake up

1133
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,359
and can do things they couldn't do

1134
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,760
before

1135
00:40:15,359 --> 00:40:19,280
that is always just a bit like

1136
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,560
why couldn't i attack two times

1137
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,119
yesterday

1138
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,440
but now i can attack two times today

1139
00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:27,440
i don't know

1140
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,440
managing that narratively is really

1141
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,400
difficult as well actually

1142
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,800
so

1143
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,920
there i mean there are ways and means of

1144
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,800
doing it

1145
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,040
i think is it level three that hex

1146
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,119
blades actually get their

1147
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,520
hex weapon or is that level one it's

1148
00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:45,280
probably level one isn't it but just

1149
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,520
just an example in one of my other

1150
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,400
campaigns a character wanted to

1151
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,680
multi-class into hex blade

1152
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,400
and

1153
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,040
so

1154
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,760
i kind of stipulated that's fine

1155
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:59,200
but we're going to want to work this in

1156
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,440
narratively

1157
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,560
um and i think people tend to pay more

1158
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,400
attention to that when it comes to

1159
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,839
multi-classing people are more willing

1160
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,280
to go okay well then you're going to

1161
00:41:05,839 --> 00:41:08,640
have to go and train with a monk in

1162
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,040
order to be able to fulfill that

1163
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,560
prerequisite to be able to multi-class

1164
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,119
whereas i don't think people apply that

1165
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,880
so stringently to things like just base

1166
00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:19,040
level up so

1167
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,560
okay yeah you can attack tomorrow but

1168
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,560
you've got to go out and kill a million

1169
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,079
squirrels not that but you know i mean

1170
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,680
you've got to be doing the training

1171
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:28,160
you've got to be narrating the training

1172
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:31,359
in order to be able to let me do these

1173
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:33,440
things to yeah to progress you i mean to

1174
00:41:31,359 --> 00:41:35,280
be honest and most of the time i hand

1175
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,520
wave it you watch some some of the

1176
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,520
professional dms and they work their

1177
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,000
level ups into it

1178
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,960
massive like incredibly well

1179
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,400
um

1180
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,920
the other thing just different briefly

1181
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,560
mention as well is

1182
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,000
magic items give you a much nicer

1183
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,200
narrative way

1184
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,200
of

1185
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,400
progressing the characters and so you

1186
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,280
can always

1187
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,800
you could use mcguffins as a narrative

1188
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,200
device to

1189
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,720
slightly fix that incongruence i mean

1190
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:06,720
don't you really be stupid if they ended

1191
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:08,720
up having to get the 20

1192
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:10,560
magic dragon balls do you know what i

1193
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:12,720
mean but at the same time there are

1194
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,880
little narrative things that you could

1195
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,680
try and work in there

1196
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,839
yeah

1197
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,200
that's absolutely right i've heard other

1198
00:42:17,839 --> 00:42:22,000
people say like

1199
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,760
you can home brew magic items to give

1200
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,760
class features from other classes so

1201
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,880
people aren't forced to

1202
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,560
multi

1203
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,880
class for something you know for just

1204
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,560
one minor thing that they want so you

1205
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,079
can give

1206
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,280
you know some

1207
00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:39,839
ring of rage that makes someone have a

1208
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,520
barbarian rage once per long rest as a

1209
00:42:39,839 --> 00:42:43,440
kind of soft

1210
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,760
multi-class for them which is i think

1211
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,160
quite an elegant way of doing it but his

1212
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:52,480
here's my

1213
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:54,480
my ironic hypocrisy of myself in that

1214
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,680
on one hand i'm scared of

1215
00:42:54,480 --> 00:43:00,720
giving players magic items because

1216
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,920
it will make them overpowered but in the

1217
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,839
same breath

1218
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,200
i don't like leveling them up

1219
00:43:03,839 --> 00:43:07,280
because

1220
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,800
it doesn't make sense to me in the world

1221
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,480
so the solution to that is giving them

1222
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,520
magic items to level them up because it

1223
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,240
doesn't make sense in the world so i'm

1224
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,680
just chewing myself in the foot

1225
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:17,520
yeah i mean you've constantly got to

1226
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,839
manage your own um

1227
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,680
your own comfort with the party that

1228
00:43:19,839 --> 00:43:23,680
you're running

1229
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,440
what happens when your pro party's

1230
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,640
progression outstrips your ability as a

1231
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,800
dm

1232
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,200
like that's that's got to be a pretty

1233
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,720
intimidating situation to be in

1234
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,040
yeah well

1235
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:37,200
i'm a head out

1236
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:41,119
yeah campaign's over yeah uh you're all

1237
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:44,160
too good for my belly

1238
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:47,040
and that's it's you can

1239
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,680
i am scared of that and

1240
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:52,240
maybe i shouldn't be but

1241
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:55,200
i have to say with six players at

1242
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:57,359
level eight the kind of creatures

1243
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,880
they're fighting and how complex combat

1244
00:43:57,359 --> 00:44:01,119
is

1245
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,119
man i'm

1246
00:44:01,119 --> 00:44:04,480
i gotta say i'm not

1247
00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:07,040
super looking forward to more

1248
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,599
complicated combat

1249
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,040
it scares me a little the spell slots

1250
00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:13,520
i'm gonna have to track the number of

1251
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,400
npcs i'm gonna have to track

1252
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,880
the

1253
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,720
level of the design of the

1254
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,880
environment they're fighting in

1255
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:24,319
i'm scared of having to design and keep

1256
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:27,359
track of it's you know i kind of pine

1257
00:44:24,319 --> 00:44:29,440
for the day when it is just

1258
00:44:27,359 --> 00:44:31,520
four guys level three

1259
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,560
yeah just smacking around a bunch of

1260
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,640
nulls

1261
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,200
yeah and the the the most exciting it

1262
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,119
gets is they've thrown a net on you

1263
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,720
whereas now it's like okay the back line

1264
00:44:39,119 --> 00:44:42,800
is a couple of sorcerers the front line

1265
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:45,040
there's a couple of mounted guys who are

1266
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,400
gonna jump off their mounts when the hp

1267
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,000
gets to this level the backline

1268
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,200
sorcerers will try and

1269
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,520
you know tactics like this

1270
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,560
that's just a level eight

1271
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,839
yeah

1272
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:59,280
um

1273
00:44:55,839 --> 00:45:00,960
okay that's an interesting point man

1274
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,359
so i generally

1275
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,400
don't have monsters

1276
00:45:03,359 --> 00:45:07,359
are

1277
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:09,200
either it's some kind of real serious

1278
00:45:07,359 --> 00:45:11,440
so

1279
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,680
feature monsters and moocs i think is a

1280
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,680
good way of going there because

1281
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,680
realistically a lot of the when they're

1282
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,040
more character at level 11 a lot of

1283
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,880
stuff that they're going to be fighting

1284
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,000
doesn't have that amount of special

1285
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,680
rules

1286
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,480
it's just mob

1287
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,480
however you have your one big one or two

1288
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,760
big guys that are gonna you've got

1289
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:33,119
specials and they're getting your most

1290
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,960
attention as the dm for me i am also

1291
00:45:33,119 --> 00:45:36,000
really really good at winging it

1292
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,440
apparently

1293
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,000
the one thing that you have to be really

1294
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,880
careful of there is not screwing it up

1295
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,880
and oh it did 3d eight damage to this

1296
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,480
character last turn but then it's only

1297
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,920
done two

1298
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,599
this turn

1299
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,520
do you like because it's if you as soon

1300
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:53,200
as you do something like that then then

1301
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,640
the entire thing is completely smashed

1302
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,560
[ __ ] anyway and you can't carry on

1303
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,520
really or you just lose your trust in

1304
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,800
the trust of your players and if you

1305
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,400
don't trust your players need to have

1306
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,800
buying from them then you can't really

1307
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,800
do it so yeah i mean this is getting

1308
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,720
this moved on to a dm progression

1309
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,599
doesn't it it's a very smooth segway

1310
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:11,440
yeah i like it um but that thing of

1311
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:13,520
having to run more and more and more

1312
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:16,160
complicated encounters i think one thing

1313
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,200
that you can maybe do there

1314
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,800
is

1315
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,560
and you probably do this anyway because

1316
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,079
you're

1317
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,760
either a diva is a bastard or quite a

1318
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:26,079
clever guy depending on which way you

1319
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:30,079
look at it but playing

1320
00:46:26,079 --> 00:46:32,160
not just to the features of the creature

1321
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:32,880
you play within its stat block obviously

1322
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,920
but

1323
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:40,000
changing tactics so

1324
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:42,160
my party had a submarine and they were

1325
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,440
traveling across the ocean uh it was a

1326
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,440
well i said submarine it's the apparatus

1327
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,880
of quelish um but it's a slightly juiced

1328
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,880
up version that i've got that's a little

1329
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,079
bit more usable in some situations and

1330
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,960
not in others

1331
00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:54,079
uh they came across i think it's a hogan

1332
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,480
yeah it would have been so hogan because

1333
00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:58,400
they had the priestesses i think uh so

1334
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:00,880
they came across this hogan they've had

1335
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,680
a couple of fights with them

1336
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,119
and

1337
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,480
they generally kicked crap out of

1338
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:05,920
everybody but then

1339
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,920
didn't finish off the last one it just

1340
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,960
swam off and left them to it

1341
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,480
so

1342
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,560
what that had meant

1343
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,280
is that at least one

1344
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,200
creature had seen the party

1345
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,079
but more importantly had seen them

1346
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,359
entering and exiting the machine

1347
00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:22,480
in order to get into the machine in the

1348
00:47:21,359 --> 00:47:24,480
first place it was something like a dc

1349
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,240
20 in check for the party because

1350
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,839
they've never seen anybody do it before

1351
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:29,359
you've just had a relatively intelligent

1352
00:47:27,839 --> 00:47:30,880
sentient creature i mean not super

1353
00:47:29,359 --> 00:47:32,160
intelligent i think it was

1354
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,400
i remember it was a normal slogan or a

1355
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,760
priestess but um they

1356
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,319
they'd seen what they were doing so they

1357
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,800
knew roughly how to do it so the next

1358
00:47:38,319 --> 00:47:42,720
time that they encountered one of those

1359
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,319
mobs it was

1360
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:46,480
a couple of processes so basic spell

1361
00:47:44,319 --> 00:47:47,920
casters but they had thunder wave

1362
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,359
and so

1363
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,680
their tactic

1364
00:47:49,359 --> 00:47:53,359
was get inside the thing and cast

1365
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:56,319
thunder wave

1366
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:57,520
now that's not a particularly complex i

1367
00:47:56,319 --> 00:47:59,920
didn't have to

1368
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,280
worry about lots and lots of how they

1369
00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:02,800
can use all of these certain special

1370
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,040
abilities i mean somebody's gonna go

1371
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:07,599
don't have that spell yeah i know they

1372
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,680
didn't but or they don't on stat but

1373
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:11,920
this is obvious obviously homebrew

1374
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,400
everything in order to fit and

1375
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:17,040
i think the idea of suicide effectively

1376
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,200
suicide bomber sahagim priestess is just

1377
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,599
too cool to let up

1378
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,440
but that kind of little tweak

1379
00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:25,680
doesn't take too much more brain power

1380
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,599
in terms of having to worry about

1381
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,760
complex abilities

1382
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:31,920
but does bring that thing for the

1383
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,160
players of oh we're gonna have to deal

1384
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,400
with this in a different way or it

1385
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,839
brings in that element of

1386
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,000
fear something i was talking quite a lot

1387
00:48:37,839 --> 00:48:43,119
about in the mistakes episode keep your

1388
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,119
players scared

1389
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,240
yeah that's

1390
00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:50,880
nice and it sounded like a very good

1391
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:52,880
encounter to be a part of i mean they

1392
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,599
smashed it they they killed the things

1393
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,200
no problem it was an issue but their

1394
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:59,359
little faces

1395
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,200
when the first one climbed in through

1396
00:48:59,359 --> 00:49:03,440
the back and they went what why are they

1397
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:06,000
doing that how are they doing that

1398
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:08,400
what's going on well i mean she's just

1399
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,920
done it so you can deal with that and i

1400
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,280
know this is the thing i know perfectly

1401
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,280
well that was a congruent reason as to

1402
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,200
why and then once they were in there and

1403
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,520
you saw the first one go

1404
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,970
oh i said and she casts thunder wave and

1405
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,640
you just saw everyone's face go ah

1406
00:49:18,970 --> 00:49:22,720
[Music]

1407
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,920
that's that moments you live for as a

1408
00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,319
deer

1409
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:30,800
yeah not level it up

1410
00:49:26,319 --> 00:49:31,680
no no not me enough yeah

1411
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,119
yeah

1412
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:36,640
yeah my players are still it's going to

1413
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:38,960
sound like they haven't left this bloody

1414
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:40,800
dungeon for years but we haven't played

1415
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,400
for two months so

1416
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,720
going through their

1417
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:48,319
cobalt dungeon and of course

1418
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:50,319
kobolds are also intelligent in quotes

1419
00:49:48,319 --> 00:49:52,640
clever enough to make traps devious yeah

1420
00:49:50,319 --> 00:49:55,200
yeah clever enough to know how to open

1421
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:59,359
the door and to run away when the [ __ ]

1422
00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:02,000
hits the fan but also quite low cr so

1423
00:49:59,359 --> 00:50:03,280
ostensibly or a large number of moocs

1424
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,599
so the combat we just finished before

1425
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:09,040
the holiday was uh one two three four

1426
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:10,839
five six seven eight nine ten enemies

1427
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,040
right off the top of my head eight

1428
00:50:10,839 --> 00:50:16,319
inventors uh

1429
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,880
a sorcerer a dragon shield

1430
00:50:16,319 --> 00:50:20,960
two giant weasels

1431
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,000
uh like that off the top of my head from

1432
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,800
memory

1433
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:29,119
that's what it was so there's that

1434
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:31,040
sounds so complex man [ __ ] man it was it

1435
00:50:29,119 --> 00:50:32,800
was quite it was quite cool to do the

1436
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,240
tactics again so like the dragon shield

1437
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,240
was kind of at the front blocking the

1438
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:38,160
tunnel into the room

1439
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:40,160
to stop the players kind of flooding in

1440
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,440
doing his job as a dragon shield that's

1441
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,800
their bread and butter

1442
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,040
again with

1443
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,559
the sorcerer behind just

1444
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,720
flinging stuff down the tunnel and

1445
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:52,400
surrounded by eight inventors just

1446
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:54,640
throwing flasks of acid and fire and

1447
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,880
generating wasps and

1448
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,559
doing all sorts of weird stuff my

1449
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,880
recommendation would be don't rely too

1450
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:03,680
heavily on inventors because they

1451
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:06,000
can do crazy weird complicated stuff and

1452
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,920
i ended up just being like okay they're

1453
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,400
just gonna throw a flask of fire or a

1454
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,319
flask of acid because i really

1455
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,000
really don't want to have to pull into

1456
00:51:12,319 --> 00:51:16,640
the table top

1457
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,240
another badger or another set of wasps

1458
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,880
or a snake

1459
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:22,800
because now i can't i'm at my limit with

1460
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,040
my mental capacity of how many stat

1461
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,240
blocks muffin to skip shuffle through

1462
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,680
yeah and one

1463
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:29,520
one of the players the death cleric he

1464
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,680
killed the dragon shield and basically

1465
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:34,640
like held up the corpse and said this is

1466
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:37,200
your defender and i've killed him so

1467
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:39,680
what do you think i'm gonna do to you

1468
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,359
and i was like thank [ __ ] for that

1469
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,040
because now i can just have half of them

1470
00:51:41,359 --> 00:51:44,800
run away here

1471
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,400
yeah yeah yeah

1472
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,200
i thought man that's great i'm gonna

1473
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:51,599
roll and yeah some past they're safe

1474
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:54,640
some were like no okay i'm either blind

1475
00:51:51,599 --> 00:51:56,559
or insane and enough to stay but a good

1476
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,520
three or four of them were like i'm a

1477
00:51:56,559 --> 00:51:58,880
head out

1478
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,720
i'm done

1479
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,760
which is which is kind of nice and i

1480
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:03,520
think

1481
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,240
quite in theme

1482
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:09,280
of non-dragon shield kobolds to be like

1483
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:11,119
okay nope he was our world's mightiest

1484
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,359
hero and

1485
00:52:11,119 --> 00:52:15,040
i'm gonna nope out of here he's now

1486
00:52:13,359 --> 00:52:17,440
getting decapitated i'm just sticking

1487
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,359
around to see um yeah

1488
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,960
just so

1489
00:52:19,359 --> 00:52:23,680
this is something that

1490
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,280
that has only very recently happened in

1491
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,440
in the campaign

1492
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,760
so so the the thing i'm going to try and

1493
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,000
get at here is that the

1494
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,640
pc progression throughout the game in a

1495
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,319
narrative sense in this one so when my

1496
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,680
characters started out

1497
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:38,960
basically i tracked them all together

1498
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,480
and they just had to do the thing

1499
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,079
because you've got to do this thing to

1500
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,640
get home you ain't in kansas anymore

1501
00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:46,000
that's my i love that way of running it

1502
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,559
because it avoids so many of the

1503
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,720
problems of the character motivation you

1504
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:53,920
just give them something that all of

1505
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:55,359
them have to do in order to be able to

1506
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,359
carry on being the people that they

1507
00:52:55,359 --> 00:52:59,200
wrote their characters as that that

1508
00:52:57,359 --> 00:53:02,480
sounds harsher than it is what it is is

1509
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:04,160
getting home usually for me yeah so

1510
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,800
when they started out

1511
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,599
they were very reluctant to take on any

1512
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,760
of the problems for this world and these

1513
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:14,400
uh this population that they'd found

1514
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,920
themselves in because they were just

1515
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,079
only interested in getting home so the

1516
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,559
first part of their arc was oh we've got

1517
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:22,079
to go and kill this bad guy and then

1518
00:53:20,559 --> 00:53:24,480
that's hopefully going to get us a step

1519
00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:25,440
closer to what our characters want

1520
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,640
fine

1521
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,800
as things have progressed npcs of

1522
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,920
various stripe have impressed more and

1523
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,559
more upon them

1524
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:36,319
just the the importance of the npc's

1525
00:53:34,559 --> 00:53:39,359
lives do you know what i mean

1526
00:53:36,319 --> 00:53:41,040
um and so they've gone from

1527
00:53:39,359 --> 00:53:42,960
just worrying about their party and

1528
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,000
themselves to

1529
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,240
now

1530
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:48,800
their latest little arc was they

1531
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:51,680
had to go and they rented rescued like

1532
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,839
500 600 prisoners from somewhere

1533
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:56,400
so now they're having to manage an

1534
00:53:53,839 --> 00:53:59,280
entire mini army

1535
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,440
that are fairly ineffectual in terms of

1536
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,160
giving them any help but that's their

1537
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,680
duty as heroes now which they're they're

1538
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,119
kind of taking on don't get me wrong

1539
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,440
this certain characters have been there

1540
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:13,839
they were still much more self-centered

1541
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:16,400
than the others but last session it was

1542
00:54:13,839 --> 00:54:18,480
just a brief one they got the group of

1543
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,559
prisoners and everyone to an oasis and

1544
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,720
were settling down for a long rest the

1545
00:54:20,559 --> 00:54:24,640
vast majority of it was the characters

1546
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:27,920
are peeing amongst themselves

1547
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,119
but just to kind of impress upon them

1548
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,960
the

1549
00:54:29,119 --> 00:54:33,760
the world building element of it there

1550
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,280
was a small attack by three undead dire

1551
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,000
wolves right so

1552
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:40,400
for level 11 characters three dire walls

1553
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,559
of cr1 that's

1554
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,880
really a cake walk there's there's

1555
00:54:42,559 --> 00:54:45,680
nothing actually it turned out to be a

1556
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,680
lot

1557
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,359
took longer than i expected because it's

1558
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,520
simply because of where they were on the

1559
00:54:49,359 --> 00:54:53,440
map people were a lot further away so

1560
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,359
they had at least a round if not a round

1561
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,839
and a half of fighting through a crowd

1562
00:54:55,359 --> 00:54:59,040
to get to where the actual problem was

1563
00:54:57,839 --> 00:55:01,440
and

1564
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,680
in that they're down a party member

1565
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:08,079
anyway who's dead in the ring of mine

1566
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:10,559
shielding but they fought and killed

1567
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:13,119
these dire wolves obviously pretty

1568
00:55:10,559 --> 00:55:14,960
goddamn easily but while they were doing

1569
00:55:13,119 --> 00:55:16,480
it one of the dire wars was savaging an

1570
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,000
npc

1571
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,880
and

1572
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,240
the last thing that happened

1573
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,240
was

1574
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:25,599
between the players go

1575
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:27,280
and the next players go you had the

1576
00:55:25,599 --> 00:55:28,319
direwolves and

1577
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,359
they

1578
00:55:28,319 --> 00:55:32,640
killed the guy this this npc that they

1579
00:55:31,359 --> 00:55:33,760
were savaging

1580
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,799
and so

1581
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,640
the combat ended everyone way we killed

1582
00:55:36,799 --> 00:55:42,240
the wolves

1583
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:44,079
but i reiterated that the npc's wife who

1584
00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:46,480
had just watched all of this

1585
00:55:44,079 --> 00:55:49,839
was crying and

1586
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:53,200
so there is a progression there from

1587
00:55:49,839 --> 00:55:55,599
in motivation for the characters because

1588
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,599
straight away they started beating

1589
00:55:55,599 --> 00:55:59,040
themselves up a little bit at least

1590
00:55:57,599 --> 00:56:01,119
certainly one character did one of the

1591
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,760
newer characters but all of them did go

1592
00:56:01,119 --> 00:56:05,280
ah we could have done that slightly

1593
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,280
differently

1594
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,200
and so now they're not just it's not

1595
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,760
just oh we've won the battle

1596
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:14,880
there are these extra

1597
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,880
motivations and extra objectives and

1598
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,760
utilizing those

1599
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,960
in order to make encounters harder can

1600
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,160
progress

1601
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:26,319
your world can progress your characters

1602
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,720
like your npc's

1603
00:56:26,319 --> 00:56:30,880
involvement but also progresses your

1604
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:32,799
character's ability to play and their

1605
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:36,079
motivations

1606
00:56:32,799 --> 00:56:37,520
for that pc as well so i can't ever

1607
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:39,440
understate

1608
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:43,359
the importance of those kind of little

1609
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,640
narrative things for progression as well

1610
00:56:43,359 --> 00:56:46,240
yeah that's

1611
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,200
a really nice way

1612
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:49,680
of

1613
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,760
having that motivation

1614
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,680
in addition to the setting motivation

1615
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,520
you described at the beginning

1616
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:58,799
and something i need to work on a little

1617
00:56:55,520 --> 00:57:00,880
bit more myself i've been too relying on

1618
00:56:58,799 --> 00:57:03,200
implicit motivation of

1619
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,280
there's a big bad he needs to be stopped

1620
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,359
where my a couple of players have quite

1621
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,799
rightly been like i don't really care

1622
00:57:07,359 --> 00:57:11,440
too much

1623
00:57:08,799 --> 00:57:13,280
and i've probably lent on

1624
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,079
them meeting me three quarters of the

1625
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,160
way

1626
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:17,359
a little bit more than i should have had

1627
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,960
so

1628
00:57:17,359 --> 00:57:22,000
i've written this story so you should

1629
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,520
care about it obviously i think that's

1630
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,160
filling in the edges i mean i'm always a

1631
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,680
massive fan of grimdark so i mean like

1632
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,280
you can go too far the other way with

1633
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,200
that as well and then like everyone's

1634
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,799
just like well look if it's all if it's

1635
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,480
all going horribly wrong all the time

1636
00:57:32,799 --> 00:57:35,920
anyway i just don't care and i want to

1637
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:39,359
save my skin which means you're back at

1638
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:41,760
square one again but just having npcs

1639
00:57:39,359 --> 00:57:44,640
that they care about and just having

1640
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:47,119
those little minor stories

1641
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,440
of mundanity because the thing that's

1642
00:57:47,119 --> 00:57:51,599
happened at the end as silence kind of

1643
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,960
spreads across the crowd

1644
00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:56,720
and you hear the woman crying that's

1645
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,000
just lost her husband

1646
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,200
and that

1647
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,799
all of a sudden there's like oh this

1648
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,280
reiterates the

1649
00:58:02,799 --> 00:58:07,200
motivation for why we are doing this

1650
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,480
thing that we're doing

1651
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,960
interesting just sorry this is a

1652
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:13,040
complete aside and just a little

1653
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:16,160
talking about literal progression

1654
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:18,079
slightly forgot that uh 600 people

1655
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,319
walking through a desert is gonna go

1656
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:22,559
slightly slower than uh

1657
00:58:20,319 --> 00:58:25,119
five party members did like going

1658
00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:26,480
through the desert so i had to retcon

1659
00:58:25,119 --> 00:58:28,000
briefly the other session and say no

1660
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,640
sorry you didn't move three hexes you

1661
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:32,480
actually moved half of one

1662
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,839
so occasionally you got a roll back back

1663
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,240
progression but

1664
00:58:33,839 --> 00:58:38,880
yes yeah one of the things i was gonna

1665
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:40,720
talk about was physically moving forward

1666
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,799
through the world but we're almost at

1667
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,359
time so i think i'll save that one for

1668
00:58:42,799 --> 00:58:48,000
uh geography which is a topic coming up

1669
00:58:45,359 --> 00:58:49,599
in a later episode at some point i think

1670
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,680
i'll be a good fit for there but one

1671
00:58:49,599 --> 00:58:53,599
thing i wanted to mention and you

1672
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,760
brought it up earlier on was

1673
00:58:53,599 --> 00:58:57,839
dm progression so we've talked an awful

1674
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,839
lot about characters and a fair amount

1675
00:58:57,839 --> 00:59:00,640
about player progression

1676
00:58:59,839 --> 00:59:02,880
but

1677
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:05,200
not so much about dm progression so my

1678
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:07,119
question to you would be how do you

1679
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,079
think you've progressed as a dungeon

1680
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:10,060
master

1681
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:12,079
i've got a hell of a lot lazier

1682
00:59:10,060 --> 00:59:14,400
[Laughter]

1683
00:59:12,079 --> 00:59:16,880
much much later there's a meme that i

1684
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:19,680
saw a little while ago which was just

1685
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:21,280
like it's so perfect and it's the the

1686
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:25,280
gist of it is

1687
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:27,680
uh me prepping for my first campaign and

1688
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:30,079
i think it's the woman with all the uh

1689
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:33,040
the kind of algebraic symbols across her

1690
00:59:30,079 --> 00:59:34,799
face or the guy with all of the the um

1691
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,559
the conspiracy theory guy with all the

1692
00:59:34,799 --> 00:59:38,400
things on the walls all the strings

1693
00:59:36,559 --> 00:59:40,319
coming out of them it's me prepping for

1694
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,880
my first campaign and then the next one

1695
00:59:40,319 --> 00:59:43,520
is me prepping for my latest session and

1696
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,079
it's

1697
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:49,760
i've got a notepad it says frog in a top

1698
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:49,760
hat this is going to be incredible

1699
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:55,520
so i think one of the things is that i

1700
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,200
have become quite a lot more relaxed

1701
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,680
once i've got the overall story arc

1702
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:02,640
there i'm a lot more happy with winging

1703
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:05,440
it and and letting the players drive

1704
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:06,799
each session um for me there was a

1705
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:10,319
tendency

1706
01:00:06,799 --> 01:00:12,720
i think to think that i had to plan

1707
01:00:10,319 --> 01:00:14,240
everything out i'd probably go to

1708
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:17,680
swinging like i say way too far the

1709
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:19,520
other way now but at the same time

1710
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:21,520
however much planning you do your

1711
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,960
players are always going to come in and

1712
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:25,599
dick it up

1713
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:28,480
so one of the things is i plan less and

1714
01:00:25,599 --> 01:00:30,319
i'm more happy with rolling with

1715
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,400
players motivations are and how they

1716
01:00:30,319 --> 01:00:34,960
affect the world because that's one

1717
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,240
thing i real really really

1718
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,640
champion

1719
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:41,359
not being too strict on your planning

1720
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:43,440
for is that you do have that ability to

1721
01:00:41,359 --> 01:00:46,079
flip on a dime and change the

1722
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:50,079
motivations of every change the

1723
01:00:46,079 --> 01:00:51,359
responses of the world to the pcs you

1724
01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:52,960
don't want to go too over the top of

1725
01:00:51,359 --> 01:00:56,799
that either but

1726
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:59,359
um so that's one way that i've got it i

1727
01:00:56,799 --> 01:01:01,920
think i pressurized myself less as well

1728
01:00:59,359 --> 01:01:04,319
that first the first time when i

1729
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,280
had my first session and they were in a

1730
01:01:04,319 --> 01:01:07,359
pub

1731
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:09,119
and they had to go and speak to somebody

1732
01:01:07,359 --> 01:01:10,240
and they'd gone in there and they'd kind

1733
01:01:09,119 --> 01:01:11,200
of chatted to him for a couple of

1734
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,040
seconds

1735
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,960
and they'd done a small amount of

1736
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:17,440
interaction with each other and then

1737
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:19,440
they looked at me

1738
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:22,880
and i looked back at them

1739
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:26,319
and they looked at me and i went ah

1740
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:30,000
oh god they need something to happen now

1741
01:01:26,319 --> 01:01:32,160
yes um that i think i don't really get

1742
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:34,720
and in fact this last session a lot of

1743
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,400
it was i felt don't get me wrong i

1744
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:39,200
massively enjoyed it but a lot of it was

1745
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:41,119
me kind of going

1746
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,680
are you going to have a long rest now so

1747
01:01:41,119 --> 01:01:45,760
that we can do tomorrow um

1748
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,280
and the players like no no we're going

1749
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:50,240
to sit around the campfire talk for

1750
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,839
another 45 minutes

1751
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,040
fine in that case i'm going to roll down

1752
01:01:51,839 --> 01:01:54,319
the cigarette have another beer and i'm

1753
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,559
going to sit back and just listen to

1754
01:01:54,319 --> 01:01:59,760
equip at each other and so i think i

1755
01:01:56,559 --> 01:02:01,359
pressurized myself less um depends on

1756
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,200
your kind of dm style and very much

1757
01:02:01,359 --> 01:02:04,079
depends on your tables with all of these

1758
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,119
things

1759
01:02:04,079 --> 01:02:07,839
but

1760
01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:09,760
that's certainly one way where i've

1761
01:02:07,839 --> 01:02:11,039
progressed as a dm

1762
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,359
i think

1763
01:02:11,039 --> 01:02:15,599
you're probably lazier because you're

1764
01:02:13,359 --> 01:02:17,760
more confident in your ability to make

1765
01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:20,720
up so you have to do less up front prep

1766
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:23,359
anyway exactly yeah yeah and

1767
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:26,319
that's very very much part of it also

1768
01:02:23,359 --> 01:02:29,680
i've already got the basic framework and

1769
01:02:26,319 --> 01:02:32,559
also that basic framework has had to

1770
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:34,799
mold and change as i mean occasionally

1771
01:02:32,559 --> 01:02:37,280
we've had new people join the table but

1772
01:02:34,799 --> 01:02:38,000
more importantly than that i think as

1773
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,520
the

1774
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,520
characters have done things that i

1775
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:44,240
didn't expect them to do so the world's

1776
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:46,400
progressed because of them

1777
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,079
how about you man what's your what's

1778
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,680
your feeling in your progression as a dm

1779
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:50,400
where where did you start where are you

1780
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:51,839
now

1781
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,480
yeah i see this isn't how the podcast

1782
01:02:51,839 --> 01:02:57,760
works i'm it's my program of the host to

1783
01:02:54,480 --> 01:03:00,880
not answer difficult questions

1784
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:04,240
you've got a lot lot meaner

1785
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:06,240
yes yeah that that's true

1786
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:10,160
now i know how it feels for my guests

1787
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:11,920
when i ask them tricky questions uh

1788
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,119
i don't know that that is a difficult

1789
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,640
one it's one of those ones that's like

1790
01:03:13,119 --> 01:03:16,559
you know a uh

1791
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:18,079
if you boil a frog it doesn't it doesn't

1792
01:03:16,559 --> 01:03:20,480
know it doesn't jump out it's one of

1793
01:03:18,079 --> 01:03:22,400
those things where it takes so long

1794
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:25,760
you don't notice the subtle

1795
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:29,200
differences and the subtle changes

1796
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:31,520
in some ways i am a lot more relaxed

1797
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,119
but in other ways i'm a lot more

1798
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,240
strict presumably because you know the

1799
01:03:33,119 --> 01:03:36,799
rules better

1800
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,960
yeah and it kind of equals out in the

1801
01:03:36,799 --> 01:03:39,839
end so let me elaborate a little bit

1802
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,319
more

1803
01:03:39,839 --> 01:03:44,880
so i'm a lot more lacks around

1804
01:03:42,319 --> 01:03:47,520
like you said about making sure things

1805
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:52,000
happen in a pre-determined

1806
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:54,799
fashion i'm a lot more carefree and

1807
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:58,640
the players can do what they want and

1808
01:03:54,799 --> 01:04:01,359
a lot more capable to allow that and

1809
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:03,359
enable and facilitate that kind of play

1810
01:04:01,359 --> 01:04:05,440
whereas at the beginning it's as you

1811
01:04:03,359 --> 01:04:07,520
said it's a lot more i need you to speak

1812
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,280
to this guy at the end because i'm a bit

1813
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,280
scared and the book says you need to

1814
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,400
speak to the guy at the end and i don't

1815
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,240
know what i'm going to do if you don't

1816
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,839
speak to the guy at the end

1817
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,920
and it might not be that that's an

1818
01:04:15,839 --> 01:04:20,640
extreme example but

1819
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:22,640
that thought process happens a lot more

1820
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:25,359
a lot smaller but a lot more frequent

1821
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:27,920
which obviously colours and

1822
01:04:25,359 --> 01:04:29,920
shapes the game you play and once you

1823
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:33,440
get rid of the burden

1824
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:35,520
of that self-imposed anxiety

1825
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,119
it becomes a lot more flexible and

1826
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,799
free-form yep

1827
01:04:37,119 --> 01:04:41,039
now on the other hand

1828
01:04:38,799 --> 01:04:43,200
i'm more strict

1829
01:04:41,039 --> 01:04:45,839
when it comes to

1830
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:48,480
spells and when it comes to things

1831
01:04:45,839 --> 01:04:50,160
players can do

1832
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:53,599
and

1833
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:55,680
yes i like rule of cool and

1834
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:57,039
yes i don't mind people

1835
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:59,599
kick flipping and

1836
01:04:57,039 --> 01:05:01,760
backflipping around and

1837
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:05,440
doing all sorts of weird and wonderful

1838
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:07,760
stuff but i have a couple of very clear

1839
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,799
internalized rules

1840
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,319
i don't know whether it'll be good or

1841
01:05:08,799 --> 01:05:13,839
evil but i'm definitely lawful dm

1842
01:05:12,319 --> 01:05:14,720
right yeah

1843
01:05:13,839 --> 01:05:16,000
and

1844
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,039
i really don't want players to do

1845
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:20,000
something which would give them an

1846
01:05:17,039 --> 01:05:22,319
unfair advantage over their peers

1847
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,599
yeah so i don't want the rogue to be

1848
01:05:22,319 --> 01:05:26,720
able to get

1849
01:05:23,599 --> 01:05:28,640
advantage on every hit it makes because

1850
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,119
he does it in a flashy way because his

1851
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:34,000
acrobatics is so high right and i'm

1852
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:36,000
super paranoid of opening that door

1853
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,599
and also i don't want to give advantage

1854
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:39,760
to more charisma based people who are

1855
01:05:37,599 --> 01:05:41,359
better at talking in real world because

1856
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,200
you're giving them an in-game benefit

1857
01:05:41,359 --> 01:05:45,440
for their out-of-game

1858
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:48,319
benefit which i know is hypocritical

1859
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:50,640
because i'm literally doing that to the

1860
01:05:48,319 --> 01:05:52,720
most extreme it can be with my

1861
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:54,559
with my level up carrot

1862
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,760
but

1863
01:05:54,559 --> 01:05:57,680
some people are more charismatic than

1864
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,839
others and they have less control over

1865
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,440
that everybody has control over reading

1866
01:05:59,839 --> 01:06:03,359
the [ __ ] rules

1867
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:04,799
yeah yeah and and i think you're you're

1868
01:06:03,359 --> 01:06:06,079
maybe being a little bit harsh yourself

1869
01:06:04,799 --> 01:06:08,640
there in that

1870
01:06:06,079 --> 01:06:10,559
you're the one dm the table is a group

1871
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:12,000
of players there's nothing to stop

1872
01:06:10,559 --> 01:06:13,599
somebody who's about to try and do

1873
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:17,200
something stupid just to get one of

1874
01:06:13,599 --> 01:06:17,200
their fellow party members to go wait

1875
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:23,920
there's i mean unless you're really

1876
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:25,760
really really [ __ ] hot on no conversing

1877
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,359
um in which case you are basically

1878
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,920
putting it down to the stupidest person

1879
01:06:27,359 --> 01:06:31,920
on the table to the worst memory to

1880
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,119
carry the rest of them to that next

1881
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:36,160
thing

1882
01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:37,440
yeah no it's it's fine i'm not like this

1883
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,960
i hate this episode because it makes me

1884
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,599
sound like the world's

1885
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:44,720
worst dm i'm like the step-dad that's

1886
01:06:41,599 --> 01:06:46,799
come in and said no games past 6 p.m and

1887
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,960
bed at seven kind of thing but it isn't

1888
01:06:46,799 --> 01:06:50,079
really like that and my players will

1889
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,039
attest

1890
01:06:50,079 --> 01:06:52,400
uh

1891
01:06:51,039 --> 01:06:54,160
you're trying to you're trying to get

1892
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,920
them to work together as a team as well

1893
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:58,240
and have all of the elements working

1894
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:59,440
because if you've got two three people

1895
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,039
that know the rules that are carrying

1896
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,160
the party it's gonna be tiring for them

1897
01:07:01,039 --> 01:07:04,880
as well man

1898
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:06,400
yeah yeah there's that mental overhead

1899
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,720
isn't there of

1900
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:12,480
kind of having to work

1901
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:15,599
1.25 players exactly uh yeah so i'm

1902
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:17,839
really quite strict on spell intent and

1903
01:07:15,599 --> 01:07:19,520
you know the rules as a balanced

1904
01:07:17,839 --> 01:07:21,200
mechanic

1905
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:24,400
so i don't want

1906
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:27,440
one person to become overpowered because

1907
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:30,640
one time they did that spetsnaz backflip

1908
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:32,799
hat [ __ ] throw and it got them a plus 10

1909
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:34,559
to their hit because then

1910
01:07:32,799 --> 01:07:37,119
even the wizard's gonna want to do a

1911
01:07:34,559 --> 01:07:38,400
spetsnaz backflip magic missile throw

1912
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:39,440
because it will give them more damage

1913
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,400
and then everyone's back flipping

1914
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:43,920
everywhere and now it's just dumb

1915
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,960
you'd come on to a similar thing with

1916
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,599
the

1917
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:49,920
if you [ __ ] the monster once then

1918
01:07:47,599 --> 01:07:52,480
everybody constantly tries to ham every

1919
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,920
thing they come across

1920
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,839
the ironic thing is a lot of that stuff

1921
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:58,319
already exists in the game

1922
01:07:55,839 --> 01:07:59,359
like if you wanted to hamstring monsters

1923
01:07:58,319 --> 01:08:00,559
then you go

1924
01:07:59,359 --> 01:08:01,839
a fighter

1925
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:05,280
and there's

1926
01:08:01,839 --> 01:08:07,760
maneuvers and feats and stuff that allow

1927
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,440
you to do that yeah and there's rogue

1928
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:10,880
subclasses that allow you to get

1929
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,880
advantage if you do

1930
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,240
certain things and

1931
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,839
like monsters have stuff that means if

1932
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:18,560
they move 10 foot in a turn they do like

1933
01:08:15,839 --> 01:08:20,319
a ramming thing i'd be open to

1934
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:22,880
officially home brewing that as a fee if

1935
01:08:20,319 --> 01:08:24,799
it doesn't already exist but

1936
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:26,480
you can't just say every time someone

1937
01:08:24,799 --> 01:08:28,080
moves 10 foot forward

1938
01:08:26,480 --> 01:08:30,799
they ram because that's just going to

1939
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:33,600
completely throw off

1940
01:08:30,799 --> 01:08:35,839
the kind of delicate action economy and

1941
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,359
balance of the game

1942
01:08:35,839 --> 01:08:38,960
no absolutely man

1943
01:08:37,359 --> 01:08:41,920
yeah so i'm probably a little bit more

1944
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:44,319
tougher on that as as i've grown i hope

1945
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,679
it's for the overall betterment it might

1946
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:46,960
not seem like it

1947
01:08:45,679 --> 01:08:50,000
but it is for the

1948
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:53,199
overall betterment and

1949
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:54,400
yeah i just think a lot more capable is

1950
01:08:53,199 --> 01:08:56,239
my

1951
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:59,040
really shitty answer that means

1952
01:08:56,239 --> 01:08:59,040
absolutely nothing

1953
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,799
i mean that's what you've all we can aim

1954
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:05,359
for isn't it

1955
01:09:02,799 --> 01:09:07,600
yeah being more capable and

1956
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,480
the other thing is progression doesn't

1957
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,759
end

1958
01:09:08,480 --> 01:09:15,279
as well it is a is that that bar that's

1959
01:09:11,759 --> 01:09:17,440
constantly ahead of you you can always

1960
01:09:15,279 --> 01:09:19,440
get better there's that thing of um

1961
01:09:17,440 --> 01:09:22,560
we have no idea when the upper limits of

1962
01:09:19,440 --> 01:09:24,319
a person's efficacy

1963
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,159
there are definitely ways that i can

1964
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:27,839
improve and i think

1965
01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:29,679
that is probably

1966
01:09:27,839 --> 01:09:31,520
the biggest thing you can have at the dm

1967
01:09:29,679 --> 01:09:32,960
is the self-awareness to identify where

1968
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,640
you can improve which now makes me sound

1969
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:37,279
super big headed as well

1970
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,719
which is great um

1971
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:40,239
but it's true if you don't know your

1972
01:09:38,719 --> 01:09:41,040
flaws you don't know where you're going

1973
01:09:40,239 --> 01:09:42,400
do you

1974
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:45,440
yeah

1975
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:47,679
yeah so there's i know where i'm proving

1976
01:09:45,440 --> 01:09:48,719
thanks to my players and having some

1977
01:09:47,679 --> 01:09:50,560
time off

1978
01:09:48,719 --> 01:09:53,040
over the holiday period i've come back

1979
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:55,120
and have quite a clear two or three

1980
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,320
points where i'm going to say okay

1981
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,800
this is this is the homework that i've

1982
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:01,600
done over the holiday period and it's

1983
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:03,360
intense to give you guys a better time

1984
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,880
so i am gonna

1985
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:07,520
make things less

1986
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:08,480
obscure almost for the sake of obscuring

1987
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:11,679
because

1988
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:12,800
confusion and an obscurity doesn't mean

1989
01:10:11,679 --> 01:10:14,560
mystery

1990
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:17,120
or a fun time

1991
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,560
it just means people are lost and a bit

1992
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:21,520
baffled

1993
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:23,520
which again breaks immersion yeah yeah

1994
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:26,080
exactly so i'm gonna

1995
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,360
start i was always super paranoid of i

1996
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:29,199
don't wanna give my players too much

1997
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,880
because it'll be too easy and it'll be

1998
01:10:29,199 --> 01:10:33,280
like baby's first

1999
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:35,120
campaign but i think probably every dm

2000
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,719
at some point is that to google you know

2001
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,520
riddles for children

2002
01:10:36,719 --> 01:10:39,040
and

2003
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,800
realize that when you're really playing

2004
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:43,280
at the game and you know maybe it's

2005
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:45,040
after work and or maybe people have had

2006
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:47,679
a few drinks not everyone's

2007
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,719
operating at crisis capacity yeah yeah

2008
01:10:47,679 --> 01:10:51,120
exactly

2009
01:10:48,719 --> 01:10:53,600
you've got a lot more leeway to

2010
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:56,320
really kind of lampshade hang

2011
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:59,040
a few things and it still be

2012
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,880
you know gratifying experience yeah

2013
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:02,640
magic items is something i'm going to be

2014
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,560
a bit more generous with because i have

2015
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:06,320
been singing b you and i have discussed

2016
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,080
how they can be a kind of a soft

2017
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:11,120
progression for the character without a

2018
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:14,000
hard level up yep kind of arbitrarily

2019
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:16,719
standing behind it yep on magic items as

2020
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:18,560
well man i would always say

2021
01:11:16,719 --> 01:11:21,520
almost build it like a character in like

2022
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:24,480
it's got benefit it's got a limit

2023
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:26,880
and give it a flaw as well

2024
01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:28,800
don't do that constantly but necessarily

2025
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:31,920
and don't make it a massive flaw but i

2026
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:34,719
just even a little quirk is always nice

2027
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,679
to add on to magic magic items so that

2028
01:11:34,719 --> 01:11:38,480
they're

2029
01:11:35,679 --> 01:11:40,640
they're not just a pure

2030
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:43,040
perfect thing there's always just this

2031
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:45,520
slight weirdness to them which adds to

2032
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:47,360
that but sorry that's more of an aside

2033
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:49,679
what makes makes them uh more

2034
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,800
interesting exactly just in the same way

2035
01:11:49,679 --> 01:11:52,080
that characters are more interesting

2036
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,840
when they've got

2037
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:56,480
foy balls and

2038
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:58,640
neuroses and stuff the magic items are

2039
01:11:56,480 --> 01:12:00,880
more memorable if they have

2040
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,960
something weird and wacky about them

2041
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:04,800
well dms are more interesting with what

2042
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,560
floors and fireballs are paranoid as

2043
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:09,679
well i think well we're hella

2044
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:13,040
interesting in that exactly

2045
01:12:09,679 --> 01:12:13,040
that's why i said it man

2046
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:18,000
wicked well i

2047
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,080
personally can think of a better way to

2048
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:23,840
end this episode

2049
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:25,440
than saying how great we are um

2050
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,239
so

2051
01:12:25,440 --> 01:12:28,960
um

2052
01:12:26,239 --> 01:12:30,320
what we'll do is we'll end it there

2053
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,159
unless there's anything specific you

2054
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:34,159
would like to add

2055
01:12:32,159 --> 01:12:36,000
no no i think we've covered without

2056
01:12:34,159 --> 01:12:37,520
going in for another hour and a half two

2057
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:39,199
hours i think we've we've covered quite

2058
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:42,560
a lot of ground there

2059
01:12:39,199 --> 01:12:45,280
uh yeah so thank you again jamie for her

2060
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:47,520
coming on the prestigious position of

2061
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:49,440
the first person to be on twice yeah

2062
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:51,440
thank you for having me man's pleasure

2063
01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:54,239
thank you all very much at home for

2064
01:12:51,440 --> 01:12:55,840
joining jamie and me on our

2065
01:12:54,239 --> 01:12:59,199
sometimes rambling journey of

2066
01:12:55,840 --> 01:13:00,640
introspection at some points and

2067
01:12:59,199 --> 01:13:01,520
yeah we've covered a whole bunch of

2068
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:02,400
stuff

2069
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:04,480
and

2070
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:06,560
i hope that people have come out the

2071
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:08,800
other side both players and dms having

2072
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:10,400
learned maybe at least one small thing

2073
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,360
that they might not have thought of

2074
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,760
before

2075
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:14,560
uh if you have thought of everything and

2076
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:17,600
think

2077
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:20,239
we are wrong then please drop me a

2078
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,679
message at any of my socials

2079
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:23,679
and i'd love to hear from you guys

2080
01:13:21,679 --> 01:13:25,530
otherwise thank you all for listening

2081
01:13:23,679 --> 01:13:30,720
and good night

2082
01:13:25,530 --> 01:13:30,720
[Music]