Nov. 6, 2020

Experience


In this first of a two-parter, Ian Langton and I discuss how the "experience" of Dungeons & Dragons has shifted, not only since earlier editions, but also as the players mature. Ways to get "good" experience, and how differing levels of play experience can dramatically impact the moment-to-moment gameplay.

  • 03:04 - What makes a fun experience
  • 06:44 - How the DM experience has changed
  • 15:25 - Difficulties of DM'ing
  • 25:33 - How DM experience shapes player experience
  • 33:45 - Good ways to get more experience
  • 52:54 - The DM "experience"
  • 59:55 - Anecdotal evidence

Intro Music: 'Local Forecast' by Kevin MacLeod
Intermission Music: 'Chill' by Kevin MacLeod
Outro Music: 'Local Forecast - Elevator' by Kevin MacLeod
Reference to 'The Elfish Gene: Dungeons, Dragons and Growing Up Strange' by Mark Barrowcliffe

Transcript

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to another episode of

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thinking critically a d d discussion my

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name is dan lowe a d d dude and i like

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all kinds of games and the crunchy

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mechanics that make him tick

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today i'm joined by ian langton a long

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time d d player with plenty of

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experience all the way back to second

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edition

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and he plays the bugbear death cleric

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gryshnak in my own campaign welcome ian

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can you tell us a little bit about

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yourself i don't know i have indeed been

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playing d d for a long time in fact um i

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started back in the late 80s

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and in fact my first three tentative

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steps were even further back than second

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starting with first

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uh addition oh

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take a drink

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[Laughter]

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so indeed i'm playing a number of games

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at the moment

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i think it's fair to say that i took a

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very long coyotes so i started back when

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i was 10

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probably

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played till my late teens and then

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kind of really took a break until a

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couple of years ago

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missing a few editions that won't be

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shot be named

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and

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yeah you know i've never looked

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backwards since

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all right cool thank you very much

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so

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today this episode we're tackling the

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intriguingly ambiguous topic of

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experience ian what does that mean to

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you

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absolutely it's a massive topic and and

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to be fair we could probably write

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several sets of encyclopedias on it but

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we'll try and pick out their key bones i

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guess

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so i think for me

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there's quite a lot of places where it

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can apply

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firstly i think and maybe as a nice

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bridge from

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my own experience and and someone that's

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played the game for a long time

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player experience is a key facet

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of of dnd

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and really obviously

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that really influences both how

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obviously the players play

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you know what the experience of the dm

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is can can make a big impact on the game

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too

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um

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and likewise obviously

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different levels of of player experience

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can make

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huge huge differences on on the overall

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experience for the

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game yeah sure i think as soon as i

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started writing my notes about this i

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underestimated how broad

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this topic is

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but that makes me very happy because it

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means that the format of the podcast is

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right because the whole point is that we

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come at it from all these different

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angles and vectors and with all

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different oh i don't know experiences of

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that topic

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so let's start with

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the literal definition

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of the word and just talk about the the

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experience of playing d d

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as it is just just in its raw format at

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the table

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what do you look for to ensure you have

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a fun time which is of course

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the objective of everybody

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absolutely so i think for me

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a big part of it is about variety i

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think every every game of the indie i've

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ever played

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has had something unique to offer and

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particularly as you move between

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different groups of players

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and obviously together the different

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character that you may pick

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absolutely has a huge influence on

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how you play but really what i'm looking

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for i think personally

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for a good dnd experience uh is plenty

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of variety i think uh i definitely

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prefer longer

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more narrative driven campaigns but i

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think also it's great to see those

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narratives almost be created

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organically as the campaign runs on

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yeah

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so you're almost writing your own story

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rather than sort of almost being

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railroaded into someone else's

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when you say

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when you say variety there you talking

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about the three core pillars of d dnd

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absolutely and and i think for me

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particularly a lot of my experience was

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very heavily combat driven in some of

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the campaigns that i played when i was

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much much younger

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so there's one pillar there that has

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some bias but i think really i think

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like anything cliche to say variety is

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the spice of life

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but i do think that like a great artist

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an ideal campaign

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is kind of well painted making use of

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all three of those pillars so not one of

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them ends up being the overwhelming part

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okay

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so talking of your experience then and

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what you're looking for now we have that

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as a as a control group do you have any

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examples of good or bad experiences

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you've had at the table so i guess a way

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to put that is

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a couple of examples of where you've hit

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that target and you've reached your

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balance of three pillars or maybe an

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example where that hasn't quite been the

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case

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yeah absolutely so as i mentioned if i

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kind of compare um and probably have a

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real

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a real spectrum of two extremes of of

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you know probably playing dnd

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nyon 30 years ago

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where

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a lot of the game was very much you know

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um you know very emphasized dungeon crew

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yeah very much dungeon crawl you know

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almost like the game was

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like you know hero quest or maybe

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bloomhaven today you know very very

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mechanical um and very about the rules

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and and almost

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almost playing to win but maybe like a

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board game or a

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games workshop title that i also used to

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play a lot of the time

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it was uh adversarial a bit more than it

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is now would you say absolutely um on

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almost you know that you were trying to

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beat the dungeon master and the dungeon

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master was almost trying to create

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challenges and hurdles for the party to

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get over not necessarily for fun but

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almost just to say you know it's a test

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which was just the kind of way we

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approached it back when

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we were a lot younger and really

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probably some of the

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the role play aspects and the

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exploration aspects the other two sort

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of key pillars

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were quite incidental um i think

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probably only when we maybe started to

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play some pre-mades then maybe some more

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of that got forced into the gameplay

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um because somebody

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you know far cleverer than us has

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actually thought you know of creating

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that sort of balance

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so we're not about dming a bit later on

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and there's a point i want to look back

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to when we get there

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sure so

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my experience of

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playing and i think

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one way to get a better experience for

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everyone at the table and it's been

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mentioned in every previous episode is

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this concept of session zero as we say

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and i won't go through why my mom

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perhaps wasn't the best but i think

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one of the best things to do to ensure

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that everyone has the best experience is

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alignment between players and dms

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and that just only ever gets more and

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more clear to me

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you can take steps to bend that

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alignment closer together mid play but

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just as it is with everything in life

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once you've set though it was in motion

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it's always harder to bring things back

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on track than it is to start

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on the same track

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um and of course you run the risk of

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snapping that alignment and

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potentially losing a player

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myself so i've pretty much been

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dming consistently for four years

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never once a pre-made

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probably

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foolishly i have to say

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but uh it's always been some form of

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homebrew and i'm just dipping in and out

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of playing during that time

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and for me i would say that

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if i took everything from a high level a

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holistic view dm'ing would probably be

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ever so slightly more fun than than

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playing

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but the weird thing is i probably

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couldn't tell you why other than i keep

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doing it so it i must enjoy it

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otherwise i'd be mad it's a good point i

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think in some ways and again probably

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going back to that experience

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where i used to dm um a lot more uh you

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know having come back to it more

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recently i haven't sat in the dm chairs

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so much

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except maybe a

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couple of shorter games with my

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my much younger daughter which was a

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whole different kind of experience i

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think for me

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dming was almost like a

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you know he almost didn't want to do it

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in in some ways it was kind of like you

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you all knew you had to take turns at it

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because you know someone had to do it

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when we were

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in those early games

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maybe just nobody had that god complex

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stanley um

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uh i i can't say but for sure did make

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things difficult because it way you

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don't have that stable

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dm that obviously also makes a big

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difference to a campaign so you know

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we'd almost end up

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cycling the same characters

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where the dm would also have a

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character but not in that game

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um and then you'd almost kind of round

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rob in the dm with obviously one player

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dropping out and swapping to the dm

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which kind of

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you know if i can't trust that with

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you know take an example of the campaign

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that i'm currently at the table at

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playing uh with yourself and

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you know a larger um yeah much more

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mature group

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i think that

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a having that almost like a

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a steady dm

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makes a huge difference because you know

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that this character that you've built

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you're going to continue to develop that

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one single relationship

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um and the character development with

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the dm

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rather than trying to make that correct

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portable where you could lift them up

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and pick them between campaigns where

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you know stuff like backstory and stuff

279
00:09:55,279 --> 00:10:00,160
is very difficult to get across

280
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,640
oh yeah that's that's really really

281
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,959
interesting because i've never

282
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,880
i've never had that experience the

283
00:10:04,959 --> 00:10:08,880
closest it gets for me is basically

284
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,560
making something for a one shot where a

285
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,800
lot less

286
00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:14,720
time is spent on the backstory because

287
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,920
it doesn't really

288
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,320
matter

289
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,440
the dm hasn't got time to build up this

290
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,640
whole world that includes all your

291
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,480
backstories and whatnot so i guess

292
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,320
that's as close as you're gonna get

293
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,600
but even that one shot still seems like

294
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,440
a completely different experience to

295
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,800
what you're describing back in the older

296
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,320
editions

297
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,600
so you mentioned earlier on about how

298
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,680
the dm

299
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:37,120
a that it was

300
00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:38,880
kind of a less preferred role which is

301
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,480
bizarre but

302
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,240
i think you even nowadays people are

303
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,160
always sometimes struggling to find dms

304
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,600
i think that's always going to be

305
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,959
because the numbers work that way six

306
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,000
players to one dm there's always going

307
00:10:46,959 --> 00:10:49,600
to be a

308
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,600
more players than there are dms so

309
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,040
you're always gonna have that

310
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,839
trouble

311
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,000
but

312
00:10:53,839 --> 00:10:57,040
you mentioned there that their job or at

313
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,440
least

314
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,279
for your games their role was to put

315
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,680
hurdles in front of the players and to

316
00:11:01,279 --> 00:11:05,120
challenge the players and to beat the

317
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,200
players more and it might not have been

318
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,640
quite that black and white but i imagine

319
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,040
very much so it's more

320
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,440
in that direction

321
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,120
more so than it is now oh absolutely i

322
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,480
think the experience of playing like

323
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,600
that was almost

324
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,959
you were

325
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:24,320
almost playing to win which is you know

326
00:11:20,959 --> 00:11:25,440
the polar opposite um really of um you

327
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,240
know how

328
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,320
i certainly aim to play now um and and

329
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,519
how i think if i'm truthful

330
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:36,480
my view is how dnd is best played um is

331
00:11:33,519 --> 00:11:37,839
is played for fun um and actually i

332
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,880
suppose just like

333
00:11:37,839 --> 00:11:40,640
life

334
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,040
not to get too profound you know

335
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,800
inevitably failures happen along the way

336
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,440
especially with a cruel mistress of a

337
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,240
d20 to deal with um

338
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,079
and

339
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,240
you know those failures

340
00:11:50,079 --> 00:11:54,959
enrich the campaign and create talking

341
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:57,040
points and and fun whereas if i contrast

342
00:11:54,959 --> 00:11:59,360
that with that sort of

343
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,079
kind of toxic kind of play-to-win style

344
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:04,000
um yeah then absolutely you know i

345
00:12:02,079 --> 00:12:05,839
remember and obviously partly

346
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,839
emotional maturity factors into it as

347
00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:10,240
well but i remember you know

348
00:12:07,839 --> 00:12:11,279
there were times when when we had tpks

349
00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,720
and

350
00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:14,399
the players were

351
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,920
emotionally crushed

352
00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:17,279
you know it's like that

353
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,880
they'd lost

354
00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:22,880
a dear friend in a character um and also

355
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,720
they'd been beaten

356
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,720
and so

357
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,399
that then breeds probably

358
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,279
the worst part of

359
00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:34,800
that that whole experience of playing

360
00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:36,800
that way um when i was younger which was

361
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,760
inevitably where you're trying to play

362
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,639
to win

363
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,480
the rules almost become your tool

364
00:12:40,639 --> 00:12:44,800
yeah whereas yeah whereas almost the

365
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,839
rules when we talk about more recent

366
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,600
campaigns

367
00:12:45,839 --> 00:12:49,839
are almost

368
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:52,079
a mechanism to keep order between the

369
00:12:49,839 --> 00:12:54,240
players to enable play basically

370
00:12:52,079 --> 00:12:56,880
absolutely um and give an opportunity

371
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,959
for people to try stuff and and assign

372
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,519
ultimately some kind of probability to

373
00:12:58,959 --> 00:13:03,040
how likely it is they they may succeed

374
00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:05,600
um and

375
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:08,000
characters dying is pretty much a game

376
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,959
over screen as little as you can get so

377
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:13,120
you you've lost in that sense

378
00:13:10,959 --> 00:13:15,600
so i can i can imagine that breeds the

379
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,880
animosity between players and dms if

380
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,519
you're trying to win

381
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,440
you haven't got to that case okay well

382
00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:22,639
then i've lost a go i'm not having fun

383
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,399
anymore

384
00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,560
yeah i mean absolutely the the rules

385
00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:28,079
lauren that stems from that is just

386
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:30,320
insane um

387
00:13:28,079 --> 00:13:31,440
yeah you know and and kind of if i you

388
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,079
know again

389
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,440
to try and contrast the two um and

390
00:13:34,079 --> 00:13:38,160
perhaps have the benefit to be able to

391
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:40,480
do that i remember the times where one

392
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,199
character in our group had a uh a vorpal

393
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,279
sword uh which you know you know was

394
00:13:43,199 --> 00:13:47,440
kind of like you know an instant

395
00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:49,680
decapitation but of course yeah the

396
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,760
rules are super ambiguous you know if

397
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:53,760
it's got a head and can be decapitated

398
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,680
so like does that mean i can chop a

399
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,079
dragon set off is that okay

400
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:59,839
yeah but now where is if i was to

401
00:13:58,079 --> 00:14:01,680
confront that situation on either side

402
00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:03,199
of the screen today

403
00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,880
then i'd kind of work with the player

404
00:14:03,199 --> 00:14:06,320
and say well okay

405
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,920
maybe i was foolishly a give you that

406
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,800
weapon in the first place

407
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,000
um well even then um you know you'd work

408
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,600
with them to

409
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,360
work out a scope that's going to work

410
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,480
for the campaign and be fun for

411
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,240
everybody

412
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:21,040
rather than just say

413
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:23,279
oh cool don't worry adult dragon um oh

414
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,279
look i got like your eyes dead yeah

415
00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:26,720
yeah yeah so and and then of course

416
00:14:25,279 --> 00:14:28,399
there was all sorts of ambiguity in

417
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,440
between you know did this creature have

418
00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:31,360
a heads

419
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,160
is that something that could be severed

420
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,560
so

421
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,680
and that is i can only say that the

422
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:39,440
absolute tip of the iceberg um you know

423
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,600
there was all sorts of crazy debates and

424
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:44,240
and sometimes games would break down

425
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,519
for hours now the one positive part of

426
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,839
playing when you're on younger is

427
00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:50,639
obviously you know disposable time is

428
00:14:47,839 --> 00:14:52,079
absolutely at a premium um so you know

429
00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:54,160
to engage in a

430
00:14:52,079 --> 00:14:57,120
three-hour debate doesn't feel

431
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:59,600
um you know uh quite the same way i've

432
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:02,000
wasted wasted your evening exactly

433
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,680
whereas now even a 10-minute

434
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,560
tangent debating rules or something

435
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,720
would would actually probably feel to me

436
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,360
like i've done the table of disservice

437
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:14,320
um and you know literally as the second

438
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,680
stick by i'd be crying inside

439
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,399
um

440
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,880
yeah for sure that that is difficult

441
00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:23,680
from a dm's perspective because

442
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:26,000
you've got a lot of things to manage

443
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,399
moment to moment you have you know

444
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,560
patience you have the just the the time

445
00:15:28,399 --> 00:15:32,160
limit of the session you've got

446
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,639
i need to finish this at a time that

447
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,240
isn't too late but at a time that

448
00:15:34,639 --> 00:15:37,920
is fulfilling and not just in the middle

449
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,759
of a campfire and everyone's sitting

450
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,399
down well trying to go to bed everyone

451
00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:44,240
stop playing because that sucks but

452
00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:45,839
it's not only that kind of stuff but

453
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,600
also

454
00:15:45,839 --> 00:15:50,000
the individual player experience that

455
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,160
they're having at that very moment

456
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,519
and from what side of the screen you're

457
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,440
sitting on makes

458
00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:57,759
a huge difference to how you're

459
00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,959
perceiving that because one player's

460
00:15:57,759 --> 00:16:03,519
light bulb moment is the dms

461
00:16:00,959 --> 00:16:05,120
oh my god my stomach has sunk how do i

462
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:07,040
deal with this moment and it's such a

463
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,920
shift like that

464
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,959
instant experience is can be hugely

465
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,839
different

466
00:16:10,959 --> 00:16:16,079
from ah ahmad i'm colombo and i've

467
00:16:13,839 --> 00:16:17,920
worked everything out in an instant and

468
00:16:16,079 --> 00:16:19,600
the dm just has to kind of poker face it

469
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,360
with beads of sweat just slowly dripping

470
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,759
down their face like yeah

471
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,199
that hasn't completely left us with four

472
00:16:23,759 --> 00:16:27,839
hours of

473
00:16:25,199 --> 00:16:30,079
void for me to fill

474
00:16:27,839 --> 00:16:31,600
even on that moment to moment it's it's

475
00:16:30,079 --> 00:16:33,040
a really quite an interesting thought

476
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,800
piece there about

477
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,920
how the game is played of course i think

478
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,920
that's you know one of the reasons that

479
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,880
dm's are dms is because those instances

480
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,360
are

481
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,880
can be depending on the type of dm

482
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,160
the fun thing the bit where you have to

483
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,240
go hang on

484
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,920
okay well here's

485
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,440
something i've just pulled out my ass

486
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,040
that ends up being one of the best

487
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,600
sessions we've ever had and i hear that

488
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,040
quite a lot in the dm circles of people

489
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,519
saying

490
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,240
all these npcs the knights of the realm

491
00:16:57,519 --> 00:16:59,759
and

492
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,600
nine nights the round table each with

493
00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:03,040
their families and their stories and

494
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,400
their cousins and their nephews and

495
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,000
they've got names and they've all got

496
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,240
backstories and we've got desires and

497
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,720
needs players don't give two monkeys

498
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,600
about those but billy bob the lettuce

499
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,439
grosser down the road oh my god

500
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,880
how much money do you need to send your

501
00:17:15,439 --> 00:17:18,959
son to school cause we'll get you that

502
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,839
money and the dm's just like man he is

503
00:17:18,959 --> 00:17:21,360
just

504
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:23,760
he was just there

505
00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:25,360
he's just a happenstance absolutely and

506
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,760
i think i suppose a bit like we talked

507
00:17:25,360 --> 00:17:30,080
about the variety of actually crafting a

508
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,080
a campaign and creating fun and

509
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:35,200
certainly me as a player looking for a

510
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:37,200
variety i think probably most dms

511
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,840
probably look for for the blend of the

512
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,200
two i think you know if you're

513
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,000
if you're going too far in either

514
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,919
direction then it's going to be tough uh

515
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,880
you know to improv the whole way through

516
00:17:45,919 --> 00:17:50,400
is going to probably impact the overall

517
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,440
player experience there's no two ways

518
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,440
about it

519
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,400
likewise trying to plan everything out

520
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,160
um you know like a crazy neurotic dm is

521
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,840
is is also going to

522
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,400
make the experience pretty crap for the

523
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,000
dm because you know it's a cliche but

524
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,200
it's the best blade plants of mice and

525
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,240
men or the m's frankly are about to get

526
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,919
stumped on by the barbarian that decides

527
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,720
that actually

528
00:18:11,919 --> 00:18:16,320
yeah this tribe of orcs nearby is way

529
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,400
more interesting than

530
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,640
you know that that may be the main goal

531
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,200
that the party was working towards

532
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,000
um you know and then yeah just just

533
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,480
reigns all over your parade

534
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,320
so early when you're saying that the dm

535
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,760
of the older editions again is this

536
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,919
adversarial

537
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,679
role and i was thinking that's

538
00:18:33,919 --> 00:18:39,520
that's probably harder than it is now

539
00:18:37,679 --> 00:18:40,880
to be a dm and that's probably one of

540
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,760
the reasons why people are less inclined

541
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:45,520
to do it and i mean that because

542
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,840
it's a piece of cake to kill the players

543
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,520
but it's easy easy peasy you want to if

544
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,360
you really wanted them to lose you could

545
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,760
do it in a blink of an eye

546
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:55,679
piece of cake trap does 60 damage all

547
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,640
pleasant dead cool i win ha ha everyone

548
00:18:55,679 --> 00:18:58,000
had fun

549
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,520
so

550
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,799
trying to balance that while still

551
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,720
trying to win

552
00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:04,480
would have been even more hard than it

553
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,640
is now and it's already incredibly

554
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:09,039
difficult to walk that fine line of

555
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,960
balance so i can only imagine of how

556
00:19:09,039 --> 00:19:12,559
frustrating it would have been to have

557
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,320
wanted to throw

558
00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:15,760
creatures at the end of the player

559
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,679
characters because

560
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,400
you want to give them a hurdle to

561
00:19:17,679 --> 00:19:21,360
overcome but then the same breath be

562
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,400
like no

563
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,840
because

564
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,840
i shouldn't because then we won't have a

565
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,120
game to play absolutely and and to be

566
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,240
fair i mean i i don't think that's

567
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,840
necessarily a product of the older

568
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,080
edition but maybe more to do with the

569
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,320
maturity of the players playing

570
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,240
the game and and also maybe

571
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,840
experience that we've had elsewhere yeah

572
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,919
i'd say playing things like you know

573
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,559
games like hair requests and stuff where

574
00:19:39,919 --> 00:19:45,280
maybe we we started out you know

575
00:19:42,559 --> 00:19:47,200
inevitably um you know impacted kind of

576
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,520
the way that maybe

577
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,880
an 11 or 12 year old is able to deal

578
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,760
with the fact that

579
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,000
i've not read 50 books and and also

580
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,520
maybe haven't had the experience of

581
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,280
playing with

582
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,720
or a lot of experience seeing other

583
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,480
groups play so i mean one of the great

584
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,559
things these days is you know there's

585
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,440
lots of really great examples you know

586
00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:08,000
of

587
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,080
campaigns that are played online that

588
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,240
even if you'd never picked up a pen and

589
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,840
a dice before you could watch some of

590
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,360
those and hopefully pick up more good

591
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,080
habits and

592
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:20,080
style of play than the way we went about

593
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,400
it so i think probably i wouldn't say it

594
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:26,080
was a unique experience um and i think

595
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,919
very much playing in the young age um

596
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,480
inevitably creates

597
00:20:27,919 --> 00:20:33,440
that in fact uh i read there uh a book

598
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,600
with a fun title of a the elfish gene

599
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,760
and by a guy called mark herrocliffe

600
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,000
and i mean he he

601
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,039
i have to say i could relate to that

602
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,919
book a lot because i'm very much he like

603
00:20:43,039 --> 00:20:48,799
me played the indeed back in probably

604
00:20:45,919 --> 00:20:51,200
the 80s um you know when when he too you

605
00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:52,880
know probably similar age to myself

606
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,200
had kind of yeah was playing with you

607
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,760
know teenagers and people people still

608
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,240
at school and that talked about crazy

609
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,159
crazy arguments you know and the thing

610
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,480
is particularly that ages as those

611
00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:06,240
arguments would spill over from d and d

612
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,720
um and create ultimately create a

613
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,440
terrible experience and vice versa so

614
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,280
like

615
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,760
the separation between the player and

616
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,840
character was non-existent in as much as

617
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,679
you know if there was some kind of

618
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,799
stupid issue that a 12 year old kid

619
00:21:17,679 --> 00:21:20,880
would have

620
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:22,880
out of game then maybe that would come

621
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,760
in game so you'd you'd be dumb to play

622
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,760
with that

623
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,840
that kid you know if you if you just

624
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,640
pissed them off um

625
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,720
so i think that that was crazy and

626
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,919
really um if i was to draw a line under

627
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,600
all of that

628
00:21:33,919 --> 00:21:37,840
please

629
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,080
learn from my mistakes never played dnd

630
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,520
like that having said that even then

631
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,000
there were a lot of memorable

632
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,320
experiences so for all of that terrible

633
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,200
you know crazy you know rules lawyering

634
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,880
and

635
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,000
devouring rule books yeah i remember

636
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,080
like you know flicking through the

637
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,720
monster manual and like the more i knew

638
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,559
about the monsters mechanics but the

639
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,880
better it was that the standard chance

640
00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:00,799
of winning so it's just insane oh god

641
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,280
yeah that's that winds me up the wrong

642
00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:05,360
way completely as a dm nowadays yeah

643
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,240
absolutely and and and whilst in some

644
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,600
ways

645
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,159
i'm really enjoying the fact that

646
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,400
obviously um free editions on

647
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:14,799
where where a lot has changed and whilst

648
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,720
broadly yes as a player you have the

649
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:18,720
experience of counseling okay i i used

650
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,799
to know a heck a lot in a previous

651
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,640
edition you know i've really not gone

652
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:24,799
back and almost one of the reasons i

653
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,520
haven't done much dm and been reluctant

654
00:22:24,799 --> 00:22:27,360
to

655
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,640
is almost the more dm'ing you do the

656
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:31,120
more you have to

657
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,480
lift the lid on those mechanics

658
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:37,200
and almost in a way the more it may

659
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,280
make it harder to be a a natural player

660
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,159
um you know of course you can

661
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,559
rp around that um but in some ways it's

662
00:22:42,159 --> 00:22:46,000
it's quite nice to have a blurry blurry

663
00:22:44,559 --> 00:22:48,320
line

664
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,720
along with the player but i think when i

665
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:54,000
talked a moment ago about some of the

666
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,400
crazy wild experiences that that weird

667
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,720
style of play would have um and i mean

668
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,720
like literally to the point where

669
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,240
probably in my my mid teams a lot of

670
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,159
those characters had

671
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,679
grown up if you like and and were kind

672
00:23:04,159 --> 00:23:09,039
of you know fairly high level characters

673
00:23:05,679 --> 00:23:09,039
the ones that managed to not

674
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,679
and literally some of those these that

675
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,000
bad blood and those arguments ultimately

676
00:23:13,679 --> 00:23:19,120
spilled into like literally creating

677
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,440
you know warfare you know in our dnd i

678
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:24,720
mean i want to say campaign but i mean

679
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:27,760
yeah very loosely um where

680
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,679
again the the m came a pretty

681
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,679
awkward concept because again it was

682
00:23:29,679 --> 00:23:34,159
that round robin thing but you know

683
00:23:31,679 --> 00:23:35,760
where you know sort of our characters

684
00:23:34,159 --> 00:23:37,840
attracted followers and this kind of

685
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,760
stuff i mean you know we literally

686
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,679
i remember like you know probably over a

687
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,760
summer holiday or something where

688
00:23:41,679 --> 00:23:46,240
uh the players were diametrically

689
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,520
opposed between two of them particularly

690
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,360
and you know i think that uh one one of

691
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,480
the players come to my own player

692
00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,919
character's

693
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,039
um sort of stronghold at the again uh

694
00:23:55,919 --> 00:23:59,039
right then you got when you're a high

695
00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:00,400
level character um

696
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:02,400
and you know he was kind of harboring

697
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,880
this character which kind of kicked off

698
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,200
this whole sequence of warfare where

699
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,200
like you know wizard disintegrated like

700
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,640
a massive chunk of the battlements and

701
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,840
all this kind of stuff

702
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,840
so it was it was wild and as a as an

703
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,200
experience i look back on it absolutely

704
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,480
super fondly

705
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,600
um

706
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,080
but

707
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,080
at the same time like trying to dm that

708
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,440
now even with all the experience and

709
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,240
skills that have

710
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,520
uh

711
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,840
would be

712
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,360
an insane way to try and do it but you

713
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,279
know pvp is just

714
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,880
it's it's not it's not even a

715
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:36,960
it's not even a thing in dnd shouldn't

716
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,360
be a thing um

717
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,120
and you know so to kind of

718
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,320
try and play that out where

719
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:46,080
one character

720
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:48,960
is just some level 18 character um you

721
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,240
know he's able to burst out probably 200

722
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,400
damage or something with a pair of

723
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,520
uncles this was just

724
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,200
insane

725
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,240
so

726
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,559
i suppose

727
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,360
good experiences bad experiences from a

728
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:03,360
very very specific style of play

729
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,880
and definitely you know the takeaway

730
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:09,720
from that would be

731
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,720
please just don't do it

732
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:16,960
[Music]

733
00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:23,360
[Music]

734
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,200
so

735
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,880
i wanted to talk about that briefly you

736
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,360
mentioned about how

737
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:32,240
the more you dm the more you

738
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:34,000
go inside the toolbox which

739
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,120
can make it more difficult when you

740
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:40,080
return to being a player to

741
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:42,000
divorce yourself from

742
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,679
the character and the world and you know

743
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,279
that

744
00:25:43,679 --> 00:25:48,640
this guard you might be fighting has

745
00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:50,000
ac-12 and cam parry so i need to bear

746
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,240
that in mind that he hasn't used his

747
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,200
reaction yet that kind of stuff

748
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,960
i'd like to add to that that

749
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,200
yes there is

750
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,080
that element to it and if you imagine a

751
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,440
graph where you've got dm experience

752
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,279
versus

753
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,520
ability to

754
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:09,360
role play

755
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,600
at some points dm experience will go

756
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,360
over the top of that and

757
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,440
it'll make it harder to role play

758
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:17,440
because you have that

759
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,919
background knowledge

760
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,760
but i do think the more you dm

761
00:26:19,919 --> 00:26:23,279
you're kind of

762
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,000
capturing

763
00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:27,760
the role play experience of however many

764
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,600
people you have at your table so

765
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,600
although it's not a one-to-one

766
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,520
it's like an xp share for a pokemon

767
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,200
reference that you're kind of getting a

768
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,039
diminished amount but from four or five

769
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,799
people you you pick up things you say

770
00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:41,360
that was he approached that in a good

771
00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:42,720
way he he talked like that in a good way

772
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,960
let me try and

773
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,320
filter that in and

774
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,600
the other thing that diamond gives you

775
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,440
is a respect

776
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,960
for dms

777
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,960
so when you do eventually return to

778
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:56,000
sitting on the other side of the table

779
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,360
you go okay i might know this thing is a

780
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,880
black pudding and it's going to burn all

781
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,640
my armor but

782
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,559
my character doesn't and the dms spent

783
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,640
time to set this up so i'm not about to

784
00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:06,480
undermine him at the table by

785
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,760
i spend 10 minutes taking my armor off

786
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,120
because i don't want it to get melted

787
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,200
because you go no that's that's not

788
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:14,159
that's not the game

789
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,240
so that i think dming shifts

790
00:27:14,159 --> 00:27:17,279
or increases your experience as you'd

791
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,520
imagine

792
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:20,640
eventually for the better there's a

793
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,320
little bit of a

794
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,159
of a growing pain in the middle where

795
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,760
absolutely you'll know more than you

796
00:27:24,159 --> 00:27:27,200
should ever know as a player and it will

797
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,000
freak you out and you'll answer

798
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,200
questions that you shouldn't have

799
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,760
answered and you'll know what's coming

800
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,760
and you can't say no but then eventually

801
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,120
you do cross that gap and you do come

802
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,799
out the other side

803
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:39,279
with a more holistic view of the

804
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:41,600
experience i i totally agree and and i

805
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:43,840
think i should say i think that

806
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,159
in a way it there's positive there in

807
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,320
terms of immersing yourself in in your

808
00:27:46,159 --> 00:27:50,799
character rather than what the player

809
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,000
knows and in some ways the more the more

810
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:53,919
that the

811
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,320
the player knows you know about if you

812
00:27:53,919 --> 00:27:57,760
like the matter of the the game

813
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,840
the more incumbent it is on the

814
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,919
character and therefore the player

815
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:05,600
driving that character to almost um step

816
00:28:03,919 --> 00:28:07,919
into some of those potholes for the for

817
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,520
the benefit of the narrative yes um yeah

818
00:28:07,919 --> 00:28:11,360
for sure and i think that there's

819
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,880
probably been you know and something

820
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,960
particularly in the last few years you

821
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,480
know it has been you know something that

822
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,880
is a new experience and a learning

823
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,760
experience for me is absolutely similar

824
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,520
okay

825
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,159
i'm not playing to win anymore that's

826
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:27,039
not the style of gaming doing

827
00:28:24,159 --> 00:28:28,720
and actually there's a lot of rp value

828
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:31,840
to be had by

829
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,520
as you say almost being able to see

830
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,000
a little bit behind the screen

831
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,000
semi-consciously yeah but also to see as

832
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,679
you say kind of understand

833
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,000
a little bit what's about going through

834
00:28:39,679 --> 00:28:43,360
that dm's mind yeah

835
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,120
you know what they're trying to achieve

836
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,120
yeah and you can help them to achieve

837
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:50,000
that goal which then brings the whole

838
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,799
game up absolutely and you almost become

839
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,039
a dm's helper at that point um where you

840
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,960
can kind of see what's what

841
00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:58,480
may be about to happen and and probably

842
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,880
we've had some

843
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,279
experiences between us in in that vein

844
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,799
in sort of the campaigns that we've both

845
00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:07,120
been involved in where

846
00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:10,640
particularly one of the groups that

847
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:13,520
we're in where i play uh the uh

848
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,600
the wonderfully tempered uh grisham act

849
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,440
you know it in terms of you know we have

850
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,600
a real mix of

851
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,440
player experience in that that group

852
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,640
ranging from

853
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,840
players that

854
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:28,640
literally started a session

855
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:31,360
having never ever played dnd and yeah

856
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:35,279
perhaps had some associated experience

857
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:37,279
from other similar sorts of games

858
00:29:35,279 --> 00:29:38,000
so to obviously people like myself with

859
00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:40,399
a

860
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,000
a little bit of a weird

861
00:29:40,399 --> 00:29:43,039
sort of experience uh i wouldn't say

862
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,960
it's you know

863
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:47,760
i haven't been sitting here playing 5e

864
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,679
for the last 10 years as an adult um so

865
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,919
yeah there's definitely a learning

866
00:29:49,679 --> 00:29:54,159
experience for me there and i think

867
00:29:51,919 --> 00:29:55,919
particularly in the inside that kind of

868
00:29:54,159 --> 00:29:57,919
party is a

869
00:29:55,919 --> 00:30:00,480
i suppose coming to a as a player with

870
00:29:57,919 --> 00:30:02,880
more experience albeit not all

871
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,600
experience is good as as i've just

872
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,440
amply demonstrated um yeah

873
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,120
you know in some ways it's almost like

874
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,720
you know some playing two different

875
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,440
games for me

876
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,960
but i think probably the one negative of

877
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,799
coming to the table with more experience

878
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,320
where you have that contrast

879
00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:20,000
is i think probably something i noticed

880
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,159
fairly early on is

881
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,919
um and you probably saw it from a bird's

882
00:30:22,159 --> 00:30:24,880
eye view far better than i said behind

883
00:30:23,919 --> 00:30:26,720
the screen

884
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,720
as it it felt like some of the newer

885
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,799
players kind of

886
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,880
consciously or subconsciously took a

887
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:34,880
step back and deferred

888
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,559
very quickly um

889
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,120
to the player at the table with what

890
00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:40,399
they perceive to be yeah experience

891
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,679
yeah they know what they're doing so

892
00:30:40,399 --> 00:30:43,760
i'll just let them do it because they'll

893
00:30:41,679 --> 00:30:46,000
do it right whereas i might do it wrong

894
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:49,120
which is a shame because there is no

895
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,880
wrong it's just it's just doing and i

896
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,600
think i i totally agree and i think

897
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,200
maybe there's um

898
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,919
you can nurture that in a lot of ways

899
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,840
and

900
00:30:55,919 --> 00:30:59,120
you know i think one is to work with

901
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,320
your

902
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,080
your party

903
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,360
out of game in-game

904
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,240
to try and help

905
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:08,799
overcome that to avoid that having a

906
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,640
detrimental impact on their game and and

907
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:13,840
reducing that the fun and the experience

908
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,519
for them because you know nobody

909
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,279
whether they they do it deliberately or

910
00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:19,120
not deliberately nobody wants to sit

911
00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:20,720
there and say i'm i'm i'm not going to

912
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,200
make a decision about what we're doing

913
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,960
because i'm just going to let the more

914
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,399
experienced guy because

915
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,200
you know they're not getting their time

916
00:31:26,399 --> 00:31:31,039
to shine so i think it's a

917
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,519
no matter how what level of experience

918
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:34,399
you have at the table yeah you know very

919
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,559
much

920
00:31:34,399 --> 00:31:37,840
a key facet of being a player

921
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:40,080
is knowing

922
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,080
when not to play and and

923
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,760
and when you have to let other players

924
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,640
shine and that's

925
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,240
super super important with less

926
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,279
experienced players which are

927
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,360
potentially more more fragile

928
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:55,679
in that sort of sense where you know

929
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,919
it's very easy for them to defer so that

930
00:31:55,679 --> 00:32:00,080
that can be you know tough and it feels

931
00:31:57,919 --> 00:32:01,679
bad for both parties in that situation

932
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,600
where

933
00:32:01,679 --> 00:32:06,480
you almost end up being

934
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,640
the guy that does everything because

935
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,399
the party's almost urging you to

936
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,480
um yes

937
00:32:10,399 --> 00:32:15,279
but at the same time so i think one one

938
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,120
great way to to break that cycle

939
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:18,480
is to do dumb stuff

940
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,480
so yeah

941
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,240
and and having that awareness of the

942
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,679
game as we talked about and maybe a

943
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,799
better grip on the mechanics and that

944
00:32:23,679 --> 00:32:26,799
sort of thing

945
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:27,600
also gives you that opportunity to say

946
00:32:26,799 --> 00:32:29,279
well

947
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,240
okay maybe

948
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:32,480
maybe

949
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,080
not you know if not doing something

950
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,360
isn't an option and nobody really wants

951
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,600
to step forward

952
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,039
then then maybe i'm

953
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,880
i have an opportunity to show the

954
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:42,640
players like

955
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,039
they could so do this better and their

956
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,880
idea was way better than

957
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:47,919
than the guy that they're trying to push

958
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,159
into

959
00:32:47,919 --> 00:32:50,159
um

960
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,720
yeah and yeah

961
00:32:52,159 --> 00:32:56,480
krishnak is a bear people so

962
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,519
he's not a particularly charismatic

963
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,600
character

964
00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:01,519
so it's it's fair to say that being

965
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,120
pushed into an interaction

966
00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:05,760
is probably not a strong suit now it's

967
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,120
fun to play out for me as a player

968
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,480
to kind of

969
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,799
explore that

970
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:14,320
but absolutely sometimes

971
00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:14,320
as a player i'll be deliberately

972
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:19,440
making a mess of things not just not

973
00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:21,840
just because of dice rolls um yeah

974
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,799
making making deliberately poor

975
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,559
decisions to try and

976
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:28,399
break that cycle a little bit of you

977
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:29,679
know thinking oh well

978
00:33:28,399 --> 00:33:30,880
you've got all the answers you do it and

979
00:33:29,679 --> 00:33:32,720
the reality is

980
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,960
hell i don't have all the answers i'm

981
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,960
just saying

982
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:41,279
i have all the answers that's

983
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,559
so i'm talking of

984
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:44,720
player experience then and those with

985
00:33:42,559 --> 00:33:46,080
lesser experience versus those with more

986
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,640
what do you think is the best way for

987
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:52,000
somebody to get more experience with d d

988
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,919
sure so i think um i mean obviously it's

989
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,760
as always it's great for

990
00:33:53,919 --> 00:33:58,240
for people to have some positive role

991
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,559
models and and obviously positive is

992
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,240
is a relative thing i mean hell the

993
00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:04,159
whole point of dnd is you play how the

994
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,360
heck you want and as long as everybody

995
00:34:04,159 --> 00:34:07,440
at the table

996
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,440
is aligned on that

997
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,879
that boat and as you said about session

998
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,240
zero and trying to define those

999
00:34:10,879 --> 00:34:13,919
parameters

1000
00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:15,440
then absolutely fill your boots if you

1001
00:34:13,919 --> 00:34:16,560
never want a piece of exploration in

1002
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,560
your game

1003
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,359
and you know you want every game to be a

1004
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,720
dungeon crawl then fill your boots that

1005
00:34:21,359 --> 00:34:26,000
if that's what everybody around the

1006
00:34:22,720 --> 00:34:28,240
table wants the only thing i would urge

1007
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,240
for people to think about there is

1008
00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:32,079
i love food i love chocolate if i ate

1009
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:33,359
chocolate all the time and never any

1010
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:35,119
other type of food

1011
00:34:33,359 --> 00:34:36,879
i wouldn't like chocolate as much

1012
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:39,200
and so i kind of see

1013
00:34:36,879 --> 00:34:41,359
where whereas maybe i i might still have

1014
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,800
some bias towards i love the mechanics

1015
00:34:41,359 --> 00:34:44,879
of combat that's great i played a lot of

1016
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,560
b and d that way if i did that all the

1017
00:34:44,879 --> 00:34:48,240
time it would become

1018
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,159
you know i'd become numb to it and it'll

1019
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:51,839
it'd be less fun so in a way you have to

1020
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:54,240
have the

1021
00:34:51,839 --> 00:34:56,480
contrast there so i think in terms of

1022
00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:58,720
how how players can get better or new

1023
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,359
players can get better experience i

1024
00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:02,960
think don't always look to the the morex

1025
00:35:01,359 --> 00:35:05,200
people experience people around the

1026
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,440
table for a role model it's fair to say

1027
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,640
um because yeah yeah they pick up bad

1028
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,240
habits and

1029
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,599
you know do all sorts of stuff and

1030
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,839
particularly i think it's fair to say

1031
00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:15,520
that there's probably that kind of

1032
00:35:13,839 --> 00:35:17,520
middle ground of intermediate players

1033
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,000
which are potentially that

1034
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,000
the very worst of all worlds where

1035
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,119
they know enough about the game uh

1036
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,680
potentially

1037
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:28,720
to to be doing it very

1038
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,720
badly you know very very meta uh yeah

1039
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:32,160
and and all sorts of stuff like that you

1040
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:34,320
know wanting to

1041
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,680
call out active skill roles the whole

1042
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,839
time rather than

1043
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,040
explain what they're doing how many hp

1044
00:35:37,839 --> 00:35:41,200
have you got you know let me dig into

1045
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,400
the mechanics of the game um and all

1046
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,040
that type of stuff because they

1047
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,200
understand the mechanics but maybe the

1048
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,200
finesse if not learned on top of that is

1049
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,520
to say well actually

1050
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,320
all of that breaks down the fourth wall

1051
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,400
of

1052
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,599
uh what what b and d

1053
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,040
can be

1054
00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:59,040
that there's probably loads and loads of

1055
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,880
good examples of of great players great

1056
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,200
dms online

1057
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,520
but i think also

1058
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:08,000
as a new player you also have to find

1059
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,599
your own groove as a person and and as a

1060
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,440
player i don't think there's

1061
00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:13,440
it's not a

1062
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,440
one one size fits

1063
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,960
everybody solution here there's lots of

1064
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:20,320
things that you can do

1065
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:23,119
and frankly probably if i was really to

1066
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,280
put a single point to it then really

1067
00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:27,839
it's just about trying to put yourself

1068
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,680
in everybody else at the table's shoes

1069
00:36:27,839 --> 00:36:31,440
and and think about what you're doing

1070
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,280
and how it might affect everyone else

1071
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,280
and if the answer is i think that's

1072
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,960
going to make it more fun for everybody

1073
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,800
then probably you're on your way to

1074
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,880
being a better player

1075
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,440
yeah that's that's

1076
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,760
bang on um and echo is kind of what jack

1077
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,359
and i are talking about in inability to

1078
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,520
i think i've got one

1079
00:36:47,359 --> 00:36:52,000
good way to get experience in one bad

1080
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,520
way to get experience from my experience

1081
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,640
experience experience

1082
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,640
so

1083
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,440
as we kind of alluded to earlier on i do

1084
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:02,079
think that dming is

1085
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,520
a really good way and again at a certain

1086
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:06,400
point you'll get more value out of it

1087
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,560
than maybe at other times but even just

1088
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,240
a one shot just to see what it's like on

1089
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,800
the other side i think that's like

1090
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:14,640
opening pandora's box of

1091
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,320
wow what the hell is going on but also

1092
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,800
there's this little nugget in there of

1093
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,920
wow okay i've realized quite what's

1094
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,920
happening

1095
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:25,359
maybe that's me being slightly biased

1096
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,240
from a home brew point of view where

1097
00:37:25,359 --> 00:37:28,079
i've

1098
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:30,079
put up a bunch of these spinning plates

1099
00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:32,560
and anytime a player can knock one down

1100
00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:34,880
and there's no safety net for me there

1101
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,599
unlike in a published module where

1102
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,520
there's a lot of framework to catch you

1103
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,480
when things like that happen so maybe

1104
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,480
that's

1105
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,720
but just just from my own personal

1106
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,839
experience but i do think regardless

1107
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:48,160
dming

1108
00:37:45,839 --> 00:37:49,760
will give somebody an appreciation

1109
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,440
because you'll get asked questions you

1110
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,880
never ever ever get asked and you have

1111
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,880
to think about things in ways you've

1112
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,320
never ever thought about things before

1113
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,839
and then when you go back to the other

1114
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,359
side you can go okay i'm not going to

1115
00:37:57,839 --> 00:38:01,920
ask that question because i know when

1116
00:37:59,359 --> 00:38:03,680
somebody asked me it was pain in the ass

1117
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,119
and it didn't lead anywhere so now i

1118
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,280
know that's just

1119
00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:09,680
an avenue not to go down

1120
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,760
i was going to say one one point on the

1121
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,800
interplay between the two as you say i

1122
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,119
think

1123
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,920
this benefit to doing both like anything

1124
00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:19,359
more rounded experience generally equals

1125
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,800
you better on both sides of the screen

1126
00:38:19,359 --> 00:38:22,800
in this case

1127
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,440
one one question i had perhaps for you

1128
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,000
as

1129
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,079
as my counterpart across the screen

1130
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,160
personally i tend to think it's great as

1131
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:32,320
i mentioned to have a mix of experience

1132
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,280
levels in the group i think it you know

1133
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,880
if you have

1134
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,680
a group that's been adventuring together

1135
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,760
for

1136
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,839
for five ten years and all the players

1137
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,440
are pretty experienced by this point

1138
00:38:39,839 --> 00:38:44,560
that creates one experience and all the

1139
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,920
players should be rounded and great

1140
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,520
but i think there are some benefits of

1141
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,040
having that mix but how do you feel

1142
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,680
about um

1143
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,440
the the disparity between perhaps a dm

1144
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,280
experience and player experience and

1145
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,200
what i mean by that is perhaps someone

1146
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,520
sitting behind the screen for

1147
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,480
the first time uh maybe or maybe a

1148
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,560
second time where maybe in their party

1149
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,359
conversely they've got obviously some a

1150
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:09,040
mixture of player um skills and

1151
00:39:07,359 --> 00:39:11,200
experience that's where you have a

1152
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:14,560
player that has a pile more experience

1153
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,640
but being the dm even um you know i

1154
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,000
guess that put some pressure on on on

1155
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,119
you behind the screen in that room in

1156
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,800
that regard

1157
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:22,480
so what's so what's the specific

1158
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,400
question in this instance then so what

1159
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,800
is it like to dm a really mixed group uh

1160
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,320
well no more more what what is the

1161
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,160
uh how do you feel about having

1162
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,560
disparity between the dm's own

1163
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,000
experience and perhaps the experience of

1164
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,000
the party so

1165
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,000
maybe you have a very inexperienced vm

1166
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,520
but a very experienced set of players

1167
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:43,520
for example right i see so i think that

1168
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,560
there is

1169
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,560
an

1170
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,560
level of responsibility and onus on the

1171
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,720
dm to

1172
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,599
not know every rule absolutely not know

1173
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:55,119
every rule because that's unfair but

1174
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:57,119
to have a broad enough knowledge to run

1175
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:59,200
the game successfully

1176
00:39:57,119 --> 00:40:01,839
one good thing about having experienced

1177
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,000
players is that

1178
00:40:01,839 --> 00:40:05,599
they usually have a level of if they're

1179
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,680
good human beings they usually have a

1180
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:10,319
good level of trust and experience and

1181
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,920
know when to help you out or at least if

1182
00:40:10,319 --> 00:40:15,280
they've also dm before they know when

1183
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:17,119
the dm is legitimately struggling versus

1184
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,599
it's just scrabbling through their nose

1185
00:40:17,119 --> 00:40:23,119
to find something specific so

1186
00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:26,240
in those instances it can work um we

1187
00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:27,680
played a game quite recently where

1188
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:29,760
the dm is

1189
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:32,800
both relatively experienced player and

1190
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,640
dm however his one of his younger

1191
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,040
brother had come in for a one shot it's

1192
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:40,160
a second game of all time

1193
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,200
and i i basically said ask me all the

1194
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,599
questions

1195
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,760
that you need to ask about the game

1196
00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:47,359
because the dm is busy dming so just

1197
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,800
just turn to me and say what the hell

1198
00:40:47,359 --> 00:40:51,119
does this number mean or i want to do

1199
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,880
this can i do that and there's a level

1200
00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:54,640
of trust there between myself and the dm

1201
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,079
he knows that i'm not going to be like

1202
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,160
yeah go and jump off that cliff because

1203
00:40:56,079 --> 00:41:00,000
that'd be a laugh because

1204
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,280
he knows that i'm not going to do that

1205
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,680
and it doesn't make sense and it's not

1206
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,200
fun and so on so on so

1207
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,720
i've not answered your question because

1208
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,319
i'm now talking about experience on both

1209
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,359
sides but

1210
00:41:08,319 --> 00:41:11,119
there was an element there of an

1211
00:41:09,359 --> 00:41:12,800
inexperienced player at the table if i

1212
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:14,960
didn't have

1213
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,319
that if i was maybe a player with an

1214
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:21,920
inexperienced dm

1215
00:41:18,319 --> 00:41:23,839
it can be tough i have to say

1216
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,599
there's always in any walk of life in

1217
00:41:23,839 --> 00:41:28,160
anything you do even with driving

1218
00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:29,440
backseat driving is is a concept that

1219
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,680
exists and there's always that in the

1220
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,599
back of my head of i

1221
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,880
i might not have done it that way but

1222
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:36,240
that's point of the game is that

1223
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,359
everybody has their own

1224
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:39,040
take on it

1225
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:40,160
whether yours is better or not i can't

1226
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,319
say

1227
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,839
now whether if if that maybe less

1228
00:41:42,319 --> 00:41:46,240
experienced dm has done something that's

1229
00:41:43,839 --> 00:41:48,400
led to something being not as fun or

1230
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:50,480
half an hour of faffing

1231
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,319
then the line is maybe slightly clearer

1232
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,960
as to which way it should have happened

1233
00:41:52,319 --> 00:41:56,800
but you learn by doing and the only way

1234
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,760
to get better is

1235
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,280
you know you don't want the player

1236
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,240
jumping in and go let's just do this

1237
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,200
because then

1238
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:03,359
you're not really playing the game

1239
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,680
anymore no one learns and

1240
00:42:03,359 --> 00:42:07,520
everybody's just kind of bummed out so

1241
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,000
it's it's difficult but as i said

1242
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,680
earlier on the more you play the more

1243
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,119
knowledge you have of being a dm and

1244
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,720
what it's like to be on that side of the

1245
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:16,800
screen the more you

1246
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:19,680
know where to push things where not to

1247
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:23,040
push things where things make sense why

1248
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,400
rules are the way they are why spells

1249
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,119
are the way they are

1250
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,400
they have very particular intent

1251
00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:30,480
and you know why

1252
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,319
how things fit together which helps

1253
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,560
with everybody especially when you have

1254
00:42:32,319 --> 00:42:37,920
new players on both sides

1255
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,520
so if a dm is very inexperienced and

1256
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,920
they're playing with a bunch of

1257
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:44,400
experienced people

1258
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,160
i would say the onus then flips entirely

1259
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,599
to be on the players then to be like

1260
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,440
let's let's help the dm learn

1261
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:51,119
essentially in the same way that

1262
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,400
you you you play the game for a

1263
00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:54,640
different experience so i was thinking

1264
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,160
about it earlier on when you were saying

1265
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,760
part of the fun of being maybe an

1266
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,680
experienced dm with inexperienced

1267
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,839
players is the same kind of enjoyment

1268
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,480
and fulfillment that

1269
00:43:01,839 --> 00:43:06,560
teachers and educators do in that of

1270
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,680
uplifting people through this experience

1271
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,760
and watching them come out the other

1272
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,359
side of hey i know how this works now

1273
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,200
and now i'm having more fun whereas

1274
00:43:11,359 --> 00:43:15,119
before it was i'm scared and i'm alone

1275
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,240
and i don't know what it's going what's

1276
00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:18,240
happening and then they come out the

1277
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:19,920
other side and go oh this is cool i can

1278
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:21,680
well i could maybe if i approach this

1279
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,280
thing from this direction and you go yes

1280
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,560
finally that's that's

1281
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,040
that's exactly what i wanted to hear

1282
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,640
that's great um that's like one way you

1283
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,640
can do it but then also likewise when

1284
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,800
you're playing with experienced players

1285
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,800
and everybody you you open up a bunch of

1286
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,839
new avenues of different kinds of

1287
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:42,720
enjoyment so you open up those kind of

1288
00:43:37,839 --> 00:43:45,359
meaty heavy rp plot hooks those really

1289
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:47,599
friction encounters between

1290
00:43:45,359 --> 00:43:49,839
between players that might not be theirs

1291
00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:51,520
everyone's too giddy with excitement

1292
00:43:49,839 --> 00:43:53,440
learning this wonderful new world which

1293
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,680
is two two sides of the same coin

1294
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,960
but from a dms perspective that's how

1295
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,560
you get enjoyment out of the two

1296
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,720
different kinds of experience i'd agree

1297
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,640
and and if i you know if i think back

1298
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:05,200
all the way back to the beginning

1299
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:09,119
a 10 year old probably me

1300
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:11,040
my mind was absolutely blown uh from

1301
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:12,079
that first game of dnd and it didn't

1302
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,720
take

1303
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:17,440
much um you know i probably thought a

1304
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:20,400
kobold i picked picked a few items off

1305
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,640
the cobalt after i had defeated him and

1306
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,560
hey i was hooked and b

1307
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,200
you know for me

1308
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,640
at the risk of sounding you know too

1309
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,880
sentimental it was it was a

1310
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,280
life-changing experience that that first

1311
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,400
game of d and d to say like wow okay

1312
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,720
you've

1313
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,960
you you've i touched on

1314
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:40,960
a little bit of fantasy in in my younger

1315
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,960
years you know maybe

1316
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,400
fighting fantasy books or something like

1317
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,960
that where uh you know maybe there's

1318
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,960
something relatable but first game where

1319
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,119
um you have my much older brother

1320
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,000
the ender that's literally a solo game

1321
00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:55,599
for me um just so i can see what all the

1322
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,720
phosphors are around

1323
00:44:55,599 --> 00:45:00,240
um yeah yeah it absolutely blew my mind

1324
00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:01,599
and i think that

1325
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:03,440
i think the other thing i'd say about

1326
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:06,079
player experience is

1327
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,079
there's no there's no negative here

1328
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:10,160
i think that new players bring a lot of

1329
00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:12,240
energy and and excitement and and

1330
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,880
eagerness to to the table

1331
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:17,680
that it's harder even as a

1332
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,520
you know a great role-playing character

1333
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,920
it's just naturally harder for you to do

1334
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,760
as a as a human being um you know

1335
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,960
despite the experience being different

1336
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,760
every time and

1337
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,119
you know even even today after all the

1338
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,040
adventures and all the characters that

1339
00:45:29,119 --> 00:45:33,040
i've played over the years yeah i still

1340
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,760
get the rush of excitement when i peel

1341
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,359
the

1342
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,440
peel the the shrink wrap off that new

1343
00:45:35,359 --> 00:45:39,599
character that i've just made and and

1344
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,960
plunger into into the universe for the

1345
00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:42,400
first time

1346
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,440
so i think

1347
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,200
i say

1348
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,359
there's no thing as a

1349
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,800
bad level of experience but what i would

1350
00:45:47,359 --> 00:45:50,400
say is like anything in life it's

1351
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,079
incumbent on the people with more

1352
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,480
experience around the table

1353
00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:57,760
um i say be at the end behind the screen

1354
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,440
or otherwise um to help everyone else

1355
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:03,040
have fun and not just

1356
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:03,040
use their own experience selfishly

1357
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,760
so one of the things i wanted to talk

1358
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,359
about earlier on about a good experience

1359
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,160
i've had

1360
00:46:09,359 --> 00:46:12,480
of

1361
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:15,599
not getting very good experience was

1362
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,560
basically playing a one shot at level

1363
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:19,040
20.

1364
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,880
which sounds great on paper you go wow

1365
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,800
this is my dreams have come true i can

1366
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,000
try weird and wacky stuff i've never

1367
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,880
tried before

1368
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,720
and

1369
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,640
it's going to be cool because i get to

1370
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:31,839
play with all these super cool

1371
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,880
abilities and features

1372
00:46:31,839 --> 00:46:35,359
but

1373
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,119
ultimately it was

1374
00:46:35,359 --> 00:46:39,760
less fulfilling

1375
00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:42,240
guides i would imagine by far compared

1376
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,760
to bringing a character up to that level

1377
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:45,520
slowly

1378
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,280
and why that is is because you've got

1379
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,319
four or five people all around the table

1380
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,480
who have

1381
00:46:48,319 --> 00:46:52,400
no no matter how good a player they are

1382
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,560
a likely

1383
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,400
zero experience in that particular race

1384
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,839
class combo because they're trying out

1385
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,880
this weird and wacky new thing they want

1386
00:46:57,839 --> 00:47:00,400
to try and i've never had the

1387
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,200
opportunity to do

1388
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,240
so

1389
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,760
i was playing a cleric at that time

1390
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:09,040
and you go

1391
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:11,760
hey holy hell this is complicated

1392
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,839
because level 20 games uh

1393
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,760
there was a there was a a distribution

1394
00:47:13,839 --> 00:47:17,040
graph i saw once that was

1395
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,440
uh levels of

1396
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:23,359
player characters in games of d and d

1397
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:26,000
and obviously it starts kind of middling

1398
00:47:23,359 --> 00:47:27,440
shoots up really high of percentage of

1399
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,240
games that are playing between character

1400
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,319
levels three to say seven was probably

1401
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:33,920
the top the peak of the bell curve and

1402
00:47:32,319 --> 00:47:38,400
then from seven

1403
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:40,880
down to basically 20 or 19 it went super

1404
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,640
low again we're talking single digits

1405
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,480
percentages of games

1406
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,760
and then right at level 20 it just

1407
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,760
spiked

1408
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,680
again and that's just because there's

1409
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,040
people do one shots at level 20 just to

1410
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,720
you know mess around

1411
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,000
otherwise that would be a much flatter

1412
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:56,079
curve as you'd have all the games in

1413
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,440
between bringing people to level 20. but

1414
00:47:56,079 --> 00:47:59,119
i have to say

1415
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,319
again it depends what you're getting out

1416
00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:02,720
from it

1417
00:48:00,319 --> 00:48:04,800
but in terms of learning and coming out

1418
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:07,359
the other side and being better none of

1419
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:10,000
that really happened because everyone

1420
00:48:07,359 --> 00:48:11,760
was just you know combat was slow slower

1421
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,119
than it is normally because everyone had

1422
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,359
four pages of

1423
00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:18,240
stuff they've never seen before okay

1424
00:48:15,359 --> 00:48:20,000
what the divine intervention what the

1425
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:22,480
hell oh no wait can that work oh no wait

1426
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,319
it automatically works hang on okay so

1427
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,000
can i do that to win the game i don't

1428
00:48:24,319 --> 00:48:28,000
know because i haven't built that

1429
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,240
experience with the dm

1430
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,720
uh if i do it and it goes well do i just

1431
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:35,119
shut the game down and that's just

1432
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:37,920
one feature of one class you might apply

1433
00:48:35,119 --> 00:48:40,960
that out to four players with 40

1434
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,400
features each you can see how that

1435
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,520
at the other end i was just like whoa

1436
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,559
that was

1437
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,960
that was kind of a mess to be honest and

1438
00:48:46,559 --> 00:48:50,800
you had combat that was

1439
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,720
difficult for a

1440
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,640
level 20 party

1441
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:56,240
but the players were not

1442
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,240
they didn't have that experience they

1443
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:59,480
didn't know their characters inside out

1444
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:02,240
which is

1445
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,839
implied a level of experience with a

1446
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,359
character

1447
00:49:03,839 --> 00:49:07,760
in the kind of challenge rating of

1448
00:49:05,359 --> 00:49:09,200
making a piece of combat so yeah it was

1449
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,240
it was a holy how this this combat's

1450
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,359
hard and let me let me cast cure wounds

1451
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:14,960
and maybe

1452
00:49:13,359 --> 00:49:16,960
you know let me let me do healing word

1453
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,760
next turn oh wait that's

1454
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,920
20 hp in a barbarian that's got 250. was

1455
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,520
that worth my action at a level 25

1456
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,680
probably not

1457
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,119
but i don't know because i've never had

1458
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,119
to do it before

1459
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:31,119
so and and that ultimately is the

1460
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:33,760
disparity between

1461
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:35,839
the experience the player has of their

1462
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,280
own character in that scenario

1463
00:49:35,839 --> 00:49:38,559
um and i think

1464
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,760
i mean i could see how that could be

1465
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:41,359
massively

1466
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,880
complicated and

1467
00:49:41,359 --> 00:49:44,960
i think for me

1468
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:48,160
there's no allure to that that idea of

1469
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,839
send go go crack our level 20 character

1470
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,520
and and probably the main reason is

1471
00:49:49,839 --> 00:49:52,800
actually one of the

1472
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,920
the experience

1473
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,760
is i enjoy most about playing d

1474
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,400
i think is actually the anticipation and

1475
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,160
the

1476
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,079
the development of that character

1477
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:04,880
mechanically as well as well as both you

1478
00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:05,839
know in an rp sense but to anticipate

1479
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,599
what that

1480
00:50:05,839 --> 00:50:09,119
what you know what what cool stuff the

1481
00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:11,280
next level might bring

1482
00:50:09,119 --> 00:50:14,000
um yeah and then to go play that out to

1483
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:16,319
have all of those options thrown at you

1484
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,800
all at once at once um yeah i could

1485
00:50:16,319 --> 00:50:19,760
imagine both is confusing and you know

1486
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,920
creates

1487
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,000
unnecessary friction in the game

1488
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:26,000
to say well you know the dm doesn't have

1489
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,800
much experience dealing with these crazy

1490
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:31,200
abilities that players don't yeah um and

1491
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,200
great so that's a problem but yeah also

1492
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,240
you you're absolutely robbing yourself

1493
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,720
of

1494
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:39,119
the most fun part which is actually

1495
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:41,040
the growth of that character and

1496
00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:43,440
you know figuring out

1497
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,440
not in one time but you know over over a

1498
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,760
long period of how that character is

1499
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:50,640
going to develop and i guarantee

1500
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,319
what you had in mind maybe for a build

1501
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,720
that you may have fought a little bit

1502
00:50:52,319 --> 00:50:57,839
ahead of at the start and how that might

1503
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:59,520
work out um it's not the way ultimately

1504
00:50:57,839 --> 00:51:01,119
it works out having played the character

1505
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,440
for a while particularly

1506
00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:06,319
you're less familiar

1507
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:09,200
yeah so i you know it was

1508
00:51:06,319 --> 00:51:13,280
it was fun in its own way uh and it was

1509
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:15,119
more of a thought exercise rather than a

1510
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:17,440
a genuine play

1511
00:51:15,119 --> 00:51:18,960
but i was just trying to say like don't

1512
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,640
for maybe less experienced people don't

1513
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,760
see that as an opportunity to learn

1514
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,599
because

1515
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:25,760
chances are you won't you'll just be

1516
00:51:23,599 --> 00:51:28,640
scratching your head and then do

1517
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,400
a not very effective turn and then

1518
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,240
maybe come out the less the other side

1519
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,079
not as enthused

1520
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:34,880
about something you were looking forward

1521
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:37,280
to

1522
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,839
but the the the biggest

1523
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:42,240
uh exemplar of that less so now but in

1524
00:51:39,839 --> 00:51:44,240
in most mmos before they started

1525
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:46,720
enabling you to pay to level up

1526
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:48,240
you pay to skip the game so

1527
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:49,599
you're paying twice wants to have the

1528
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:51,040
game and then wants to not play the game

1529
00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:52,079
but anyway rent for a different day

1530
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,160
aside

1531
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:57,440
before they introduced that you know

1532
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:59,040
back in vanilla when wow came out

1533
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,200
it would it would have been absolutely

1534
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,160
bonkers if you'd have said

1535
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,280
do you want to roll a level one

1536
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,040
character do you want to roll the level

1537
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,160
60 character

1538
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,119
well everyone would have just gone level

1539
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,119
60 and it would have just been a

1540
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:10,480
complete mess

1541
00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:11,280
um

1542
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,800
so

1543
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,559
that's i think there's a reason why they

1544
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,079
didn't start with that not only because

1545
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,839
they hadn't thought man that's a good

1546
00:52:16,079 --> 00:52:20,160
way to make money but also because they

1547
00:52:17,839 --> 00:52:21,440
want you they want people to guide them

1548
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,880
through the class so when people hit

1549
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,480
level 60

1550
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,480
they know

1551
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,760
fiber works like this and life drain

1552
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,319
works like that

1553
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,599
soul shards work like this

1554
00:52:30,319 --> 00:52:33,119
and i think the same

1555
00:52:31,599 --> 00:52:34,400
can be said

1556
00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:35,359
to

1557
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,880
d

1558
00:52:35,359 --> 00:52:38,559
at the very least you'll have a

1559
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,760
completely different experience than

1560
00:52:38,559 --> 00:52:40,720
perhaps the one

1561
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,839
you were

1562
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:43,920
expecting

1563
00:52:41,839 --> 00:52:47,520
at level 20. yeah uh absolutely yeah

1564
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:50,319
level 20. yeah have you you touched it

1565
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:53,119
earlier i don't know if you've dm'd at

1566
00:52:50,319 --> 00:52:56,319
all recently or it with anything other

1567
00:52:53,119 --> 00:53:00,240
than that adversarial position before

1568
00:52:56,319 --> 00:53:01,200
uh sure so i think um i'd i say um one

1569
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:03,200
of the

1570
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:05,280
one of the very different dnd

1571
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,280
experiences i guess and as i said at the

1572
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,640
beginning it's it's always different and

1573
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,559
that's what keeps

1574
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,599
me coming back and and probably most of

1575
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:13,040
us

1576
00:53:11,599 --> 00:53:15,200
you know at the end

1577
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,880
a few months ago for a small campaign

1578
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,800
that put together for

1579
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,160
my 11 year old daughter

1580
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,040
so maybe a little bit of history

1581
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:25,200
repeating there and then hopefully

1582
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:28,640
start starting the right way rather than

1583
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,640
maybe some of that stuff the

1584
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:34,880
yeah so so both for my uh girlfriend and

1585
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:36,720
my um daughter which was

1586
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,359
obviously a or

1587
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:40,720
an experience in itself in terms of the

1588
00:53:39,359 --> 00:53:42,480
relationship that you have with the

1589
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:44,160
players is different of course

1590
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,440
and that you know whether the

1591
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,599
relationship is

1592
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,599
you know family or you know close

1593
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:51,520
friends obviously also has a massive

1594
00:53:49,599 --> 00:53:53,200
bearing between that

1595
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,280
but the relationship between the party

1596
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,480
and what the experience may be like

1597
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,079
compared to

1598
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,599
obviously the the inverse of that of

1599
00:53:58,079 --> 00:54:01,119
maybe playing with people that you've

1600
00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:02,079
you've never even met maybe you just

1601
00:54:01,119 --> 00:54:04,400
know

1602
00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:07,119
one individual um yeah that's brought

1603
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,640
you to the table uh and that that

1604
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:11,119
again presents

1605
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,200
opportunity for fun experiences

1606
00:54:11,119 --> 00:54:15,450
plenty of opportunities for

1607
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,040
not so great experiences as well

1608
00:54:15,450 --> 00:54:19,760
[Music]

1609
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:21,520
yeah okay so how did you find that

1610
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,800
differs then from being a player i know

1611
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,280
we're kind of trying to close the loop

1612
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,720
here between that how does a dm

1613
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:29,040
experience play in the game and how does

1614
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:30,400
a player experience playing the game i

1615
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,680
can say that

1616
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,640
it is

1617
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:37,599
hugely hugely different and i'm

1618
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,440
continually surprised by

1619
00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:42,079
the perspective

1620
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,839
how that differs between players and dms

1621
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:46,720
but what about yourself yeah absolutely

1622
00:54:43,839 --> 00:54:48,240
i think in a word responsibility is

1623
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:49,520
probably

1624
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:50,960
one of the biggest differences and

1625
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,119
whilst you know we said earlier that

1626
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,799
players have responsibility for

1627
00:54:53,119 --> 00:54:56,240
um you know making it fun for everybody

1628
00:54:54,799 --> 00:54:58,640
everybody has a

1629
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:01,119
that but i think there's probably

1630
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:03,920
the most pressure on the dm to

1631
00:55:01,119 --> 00:55:06,000
to not kind of mess up to a point where

1632
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,599
nobody's having fun um you know that's

1633
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,760
always your

1634
00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:12,880
the worst case scenario for you as a dm

1635
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:15,200
i think um to think that you know you've

1636
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:17,040
you've put the players in a situation or

1637
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,880
you've aided about the players putting

1638
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,480
themselves in a situation

1639
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:23,040
um where they

1640
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,720
don't want to be don't enjoy

1641
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,720
you know they've ended up

1642
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:28,319
creating almost the wrong mix of the

1643
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,760
pillars for themselves

1644
00:55:28,319 --> 00:55:31,440
um yeah

1645
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,880
all of those i think are

1646
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:36,160
considerations as dm that simply you

1647
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,119
don't have

1648
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,640
your own burden from a player um largely

1649
00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:44,960
speaking so i think

1650
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:47,200
that is i think i think again that same

1651
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:50,240
responsibility of making sure that the

1652
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,280
combat plays out in a balanced way um

1653
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:52,960
and

1654
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,960
someone doesn't just

1655
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,400
get it get a few bad rolls and

1656
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,920
you know find some self in real hot

1657
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:58,880
water or worse

1658
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,559
so i think

1659
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,040
that you know probably the difference in

1660
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:04,319
the experience between the two for sure

1661
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,760
feels

1662
00:56:04,319 --> 00:56:07,440
a bit more like you're

1663
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,640
the game maker

1664
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,799
so inevitably there's more

1665
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,720
responsibility that comes with that and

1666
00:56:10,799 --> 00:56:15,119
i think there's a lot of

1667
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:16,799
payback for that when

1668
00:56:15,119 --> 00:56:18,319
the inverse happens when things go well

1669
00:56:16,799 --> 00:56:20,079
you know so that those things you you

1670
00:56:18,319 --> 00:56:22,240
were worrying about

1671
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:24,079
turn out to be great you know that the

1672
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:26,319
combat works out great and

1673
00:56:24,079 --> 00:56:28,720
someone gets a moment to shine and and

1674
00:56:26,319 --> 00:56:29,599
defeats a particular monster or you know

1675
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:31,599
a

1676
00:56:29,599 --> 00:56:33,040
or something similar um

1677
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:34,799
where it works out great

1678
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,240
and obviously as a dm i think that's

1679
00:56:34,799 --> 00:56:38,960
probably

1680
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:41,359
the fuel that would keep you going

1681
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:43,839
there's a gratification there for sure

1682
00:56:41,359 --> 00:56:44,480
um i'm i'm personally very looking

1683
00:56:43,839 --> 00:56:45,920
forward to

1684
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,480
[Music]

1685
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,520
a couple of longer burn longer longer

1686
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,240
term

1687
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,200
strands and threads that i've started to

1688
00:56:52,240 --> 00:56:55,839
weave

1689
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,359
in and out of the narrative

1690
00:56:55,839 --> 00:56:59,119
because the longer it burns the

1691
00:56:57,359 --> 00:57:02,400
hopefully the bigger payoff there will

1692
00:56:59,119 --> 00:57:04,480
be at the end to not only the the one or

1693
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:07,119
two or three however many players it

1694
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:08,640
affects but also the table experience as

1695
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:10,319
a whole

1696
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:13,440
from

1697
00:57:10,319 --> 00:57:15,680
my perspective like maybe this is again

1698
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,799
a unique to maybe more of a longer term

1699
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,119
campaign

1700
00:57:16,799 --> 00:57:22,720
but it's

1701
00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:25,839
i'm consistently surprised by

1702
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:27,440
the viewpoint of players versus the dm

1703
00:57:25,839 --> 00:57:29,599
and i think this is something that every

1704
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,200
every dm has no matter the level of

1705
00:57:29,599 --> 00:57:34,880
experience the players

1706
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,920
and it's just a symptom of human nature

1707
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,359
that everyone's different everyone

1708
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:41,119
experiences the different you know

1709
00:57:37,359 --> 00:57:42,799
stimuli differently and and so on that

1710
00:57:41,119 --> 00:57:45,760
one thing that you might think was a

1711
00:57:42,799 --> 00:57:48,079
hilarious goof they think was

1712
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:51,200
a plot to assassinate the king

1713
00:57:48,079 --> 00:57:52,160
one thing that you thought was

1714
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,839
a bit

1715
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,760
a bit weird or a bit stupid they thought

1716
00:57:53,839 --> 00:57:57,920
was hilarious and it

1717
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,880
and you're both no one's wrong no one's

1718
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,880
right

1719
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,240
but it's such a weird

1720
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,040
dissonance

1721
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:06,160
there

1722
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:08,559
to to come and be like wow okay

1723
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:10,000
that was i never even begin to see it

1724
00:58:08,559 --> 00:58:11,920
like that and i've seen the whole i've

1725
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,040
seen the end of the story essentially

1726
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,480
and it's

1727
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:17,839
it's such a

1728
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:20,000
bizarre almost out of body experience to

1729
00:58:17,839 --> 00:58:21,520
to have that that it continually

1730
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,280
surprises me to be like wow you guys

1731
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,160
really thought that

1732
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,920
when

1733
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,880
i spent three hours trying to make you

1734
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,319
think this how could i be so

1735
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:33,280
wildly wrong

1736
00:58:30,319 --> 00:58:35,920
here that but you're not wrong it's just

1737
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,839
that that that question to yourself is

1738
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,680
why i keep playing because it again it

1739
00:58:37,839 --> 00:58:41,280
just builds your

1740
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,119
it makes you think

1741
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,559
why do people think this way and how do

1742
00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:46,079
people think this way and why are they

1743
00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:47,440
thinking this when i'm when i'm thinking

1744
00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:50,000
about it and i think it's a very good

1745
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:53,200
point and i think people and players

1746
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:55,280
pick up all sorts of things that as a dm

1747
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:58,160
you don't have to realize you're you're

1748
00:58:55,280 --> 00:59:00,319
putting down um and and probably the one

1749
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:02,240
piece of experience that

1750
00:59:00,319 --> 00:59:03,520
we haven't so much talked about is how

1751
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,440
it can impact

1752
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,960
the game and ultimately the end

1753
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,200
experience for everyone

1754
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:11,280
is actually the life experience the

1755
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:13,359
players have um

1756
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,119
and that can be as trivial as

1757
00:59:13,359 --> 00:59:17,520
hey i watched

1758
00:59:15,119 --> 00:59:19,359
a film that had a similar plot line to

1759
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,359
what's going on right now

1760
00:59:19,359 --> 00:59:23,440
and that already can you know kind of

1761
00:59:21,359 --> 00:59:25,680
precondition them to

1762
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:28,160
to create that contrasting view for how

1763
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,200
you think it's going to play out exactly

1764
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,200
yeah yeah

1765
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,559
so i think there would life experience

1766
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,640
it

1767
00:59:32,559 --> 00:59:37,040
yeah that again

1768
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,960
that's a massive difference for players

1769
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:41,359
and and again probably a way larger

1770
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:43,760
topic than we have time to cover today

1771
00:59:41,359 --> 00:59:45,440
yeah i want to i want to talk about

1772
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,960
to finish i want to talk about a good

1773
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,559
experience and a bad experience i've had

1774
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,799
but i won't do it in that order we'll

1775
00:59:48,559 --> 00:59:52,480
end on a high

1776
00:59:50,799 --> 00:59:54,480
so a bad experience i have and the

1777
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:56,559
reason i'm saying this anecdotes a

1778
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:59,839
because it's funny and b because it

1779
00:59:56,559 --> 01:00:01,200
helps people to see you know for their

1780
00:59:59,839 --> 01:00:02,960
you know like you said earlier on

1781
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:05,040
learned from my mistakes and mistakes

1782
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:07,359
other people have made

1783
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:10,240
is back in back in the the dark age

1784
01:00:07,359 --> 01:00:13,200
before i had some some really concrete

1785
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:14,640
solid good games i was on the hunt

1786
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,720
for some other games

1787
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,359
and where i live there's a

1788
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:21,119
there is a collective of dnd players

1789
01:00:19,359 --> 01:00:22,160
that i found on facebook and i said well

1790
01:00:21,119 --> 01:00:24,079
hey that

1791
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,839
that seems like that's a little bit

1792
01:00:24,079 --> 01:00:28,079
so let me let me go here and play so i

1793
01:00:25,839 --> 01:00:29,440
reached out and said hey i want to come

1794
01:00:28,079 --> 01:00:31,040
they play a whole bunch of games but

1795
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,720
i've only really got experience with 5e

1796
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,559
so let's start with that and then we'll

1797
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:36,799
go from there okay here's here's the

1798
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:38,480
games this one's got players

1799
01:00:36,799 --> 01:00:40,400
you know player slots available you join

1800
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:43,440
that and i said okie dokie let's let's

1801
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:45,520
go down so i drove down into town one

1802
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,280
evening um

1803
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,720
turned up by myself at this crazy new

1804
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:51,200
place and oh it's your first time you

1805
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,960
don't need to pay okay right didn't i

1806
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,520
have to pay anyway but finally here we

1807
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:57,359
go no worries there

1808
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:58,640
thanks i guess

1809
01:00:57,359 --> 01:00:59,760
um

1810
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,359
yeah

1811
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:03,040
uh i guess you know it's volunteer run

1812
01:01:01,359 --> 01:01:04,240
stuff so i do get it it was just a bit

1813
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,400
at the time

1814
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,599
how many persons don't ask me for money

1815
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,160
i don't even know what i'm paying for

1816
01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:11,440
yet um

1817
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,960
uh

1818
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,400
turned up and i was like okay let's

1819
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,880
let's sit down and play this five with

1820
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:18,559
this 5v table hi people i've never met

1821
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:20,960
before

1822
01:01:18,559 --> 01:01:23,680
the longer the short of it is

1823
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,559
they were playing a vastly different

1824
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,480
game

1825
01:01:24,559 --> 01:01:28,400
to

1826
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:32,160
basically what anyone else would want to

1827
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:36,559
play it was very much a

1828
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:39,440
two of them wanted to play a very very

1829
01:01:36,559 --> 01:01:41,680
modified and specific it was basically a

1830
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:43,760
riff on magic the gathering which i know

1831
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,359
has a lot of crossovers but the rules

1832
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,000
were changed quite a lot to try and

1833
01:01:45,359 --> 01:01:50,319
adopt the rules of magic so you had

1834
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:52,240
different swamp magic and blue magic and

1835
01:01:50,319 --> 01:01:54,400
all this other stuff that didn't really

1836
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,520
make sense to me in him at the time i

1837
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,839
said

1838
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,359
but d has rules for spell casting why

1839
01:01:57,839 --> 01:02:00,319
are we

1840
01:01:59,359 --> 01:02:01,839
why am i

1841
01:02:00,319 --> 01:02:03,680
now apparently at the table as i'm

1842
01:02:01,839 --> 01:02:04,960
building a character trying to learn how

1843
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,319
spells work in a completely different

1844
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,160
way when i've just spent a year trying

1845
01:02:06,319 --> 01:02:09,359
to work out how they bloody work in d d

1846
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,839
let alone

1847
01:02:09,359 --> 01:02:12,960
this this weird modified way

1848
01:02:11,839 --> 01:02:15,680
and

1849
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:18,000
my first red flag was that

1850
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:21,200
they took turns and dming

1851
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:23,680
and that they both had player characters

1852
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,599
that they would play while still dming

1853
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,640
and i was thinking that that doesn't

1854
01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:28,640
sound

1855
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,000
effective that doesn't sound right

1856
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,240
because

1857
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,640
dm pcs uh

1858
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:36,640
you gotta play them really carefully and

1859
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,960
i didn't get the vibe from these people

1860
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:40,880
that they would do that and it ended up

1861
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:44,640
being very much wish fulfillment for

1862
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:46,960
these people and in terms of dm ability

1863
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,559
it wasn't very good i have to say that

1864
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,160
it took me about five minutes to say

1865
01:02:48,559 --> 01:02:52,559
something or put the dm in a position

1866
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:54,319
that she said i don't know let me ask

1867
01:02:52,559 --> 01:02:56,160
the other dm at the table what they

1868
01:02:54,319 --> 01:02:57,680
would do in this position and then i was

1869
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,599
like oh

1870
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,839
you may as well just ask anybody because

1871
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:02,880
you're not really dming at this point

1872
01:03:00,839 --> 01:03:04,960
anymore just

1873
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,160
screaming for help so that's the part of

1874
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:06,960
the name

1875
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,920
yeah

1876
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,440
yeah yeah so it was you know and pretty

1877
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,960
because lack of experience on their part

1878
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,359
and lack of communication and so on and

1879
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:18,640
so on and maybe a maturity thing both in

1880
01:03:15,359 --> 01:03:20,880
game and out of game um so i i quite

1881
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,160
cordially said i'm not gonna come back

1882
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:23,760
that wasn't really what i was looking

1883
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,880
for i wish you guys are the best but

1884
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:27,680
that's not

1885
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,200
really the game i was looking for

1886
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,960
it was very much a

1887
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,400
wish fulfillment for the for the two of

1888
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,440
them and if anybody else wanted to come

1889
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:35,680
along for their journey of wish

1890
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,039
fulfillment they could which is nice of

1891
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,039
them but

1892
01:03:37,039 --> 01:03:40,640
that's not for me um

1893
01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:42,799
so for a few weeks after that i was kind

1894
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:45,039
of on the back foot because i'm gonna go

1895
01:03:42,799 --> 01:03:48,480
that was that was weird and bad and

1896
01:03:45,039 --> 01:03:49,280
pretty much a waste of my evening um

1897
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,440
but

1898
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,799
a good experience it's not

1899
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,039
this is this is not an experience that

1900
01:03:52,799 --> 01:03:56,400
i've had personally it's something i saw

1901
01:03:55,039 --> 01:04:00,240
other people having

1902
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:03,440
but i was in brighton way back in

1903
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:05,440
february before everything went crap

1904
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,319
and we were walking around the uh aboard

1905
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,480
game

1906
01:04:06,319 --> 01:04:09,920
cafe bar

1907
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,200
area

1908
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,200
during the week because with some time

1909
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:15,280
off work and

1910
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:18,000
at about 4 p.m

1911
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,760
there was an adult man dm'ing for a

1912
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,039
bunch of school kids from the school

1913
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:22,480
down the road they're also in their

1914
01:04:21,039 --> 01:04:23,440
uniform they've literally come out of

1915
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,599
school

1916
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:29,039
i've walked 200 yards down the road and

1917
01:04:25,599 --> 01:04:31,359
gone in and he was he was dming for them

1918
01:04:29,039 --> 01:04:33,920
some after-school activity telling them

1919
01:04:31,359 --> 01:04:35,760
about some fantastical beasts of

1920
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:38,640
nature that they were

1921
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:41,359
charged with felling for the good of the

1922
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:43,280
the town and that really was a very

1923
01:04:41,359 --> 01:04:45,440
wholesome moment and it was a really

1924
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:48,079
nice contrast between

1925
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:49,920
the the adult games that i'm

1926
01:04:48,079 --> 01:04:51,440
playing and a part of to be like man

1927
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,520
there's a bunch of kids having fun after

1928
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:56,559
school and it made me feel

1929
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:58,720
like when i used to leave school

1930
01:04:56,559 --> 01:05:01,520
go home have a bowl of cereal and play

1931
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:05,119
my n64 it was a you know it was it was a

1932
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:07,440
nostalgic wholesome experience uh for me

1933
01:05:05,119 --> 01:05:10,799
yeah absolutely and i bet each and every

1934
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:12,960
one of them was having their minds blown

1935
01:05:10,799 --> 01:05:13,839
um i wanted to i wanted to join in i was

1936
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:14,720
like man i want to be part of this

1937
01:05:13,839 --> 01:05:16,000
because they look like they're having so

1938
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,680
much fun there

1939
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,680
so yeah and

1940
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:22,079
and that's kind of the point right is we

1941
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:24,400
said about earlier about the experience

1942
01:05:22,079 --> 01:05:26,400
always being unique in some way shape or

1943
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,599
form sure there'll be some commonality

1944
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,440
hell you're always going to pick up a

1945
01:05:27,599 --> 01:05:32,319
d20 chances are but

1946
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:34,400
that you know there's so much more that

1947
01:05:32,319 --> 01:05:38,079
impacts the experience and then probably

1948
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:39,599
we could we could ever do justice to

1949
01:05:38,079 --> 01:05:42,720
but i i think

1950
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:44,480
in in both of those scenarios

1951
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,880
at least some of the party was was

1952
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,480
having a having a whale of the time even

1953
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,520
the bad experience

1954
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,119
they

1955
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,960
that experience for them is is

1956
01:05:51,119 --> 01:05:56,000
presumably what they they how they

1957
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:57,680
enjoyed to play and i think they're like

1958
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,760
anything it's about

1959
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:02,559
trying to find an alignment between a

1960
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:04,960
group of people that all want the same

1961
01:06:02,559 --> 01:06:06,480
broad kind of experience

1962
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,319
yeah and i think that's obviously where

1963
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:12,079
there was a big clash in the first

1964
01:06:08,319 --> 01:06:13,920
scenario um where in the second scenario

1965
01:06:12,079 --> 01:06:16,079
i'll see presumably there was a you know

1966
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:17,920
nobody was forcing those kids to go at

1967
01:06:16,079 --> 01:06:19,920
gunpoint you know they probably had

1968
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,280
quite open minds as to what dungeon

1969
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,400
dragons looked like

1970
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,000
and

1971
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:26,079
you know had that other thing we talked

1972
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:29,440
about probably quite a veteran dungeon

1973
01:06:26,079 --> 01:06:31,680
master uh at the helm ready to to kind

1974
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,559
of embrace this whole big group of new

1975
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,960
players

1976
01:06:32,559 --> 01:06:36,960
with all sorts of wild ideas and and

1977
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:38,799
different experiences but ultimately

1978
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,839
probably a lot less in in dungeon

1979
01:06:38,799 --> 01:06:41,680
dragons

1980
01:06:39,839 --> 01:06:43,680
where everybody could have fun and

1981
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,599
obviously the as you say you want to

1982
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:47,200
join in aspect at that dm was having a

1983
01:06:45,599 --> 01:06:48,640
load of fun because

1984
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,559
he could see the enjoyment that he was

1985
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:52,640
creating which i think is

1986
01:06:50,559 --> 01:06:53,920
ultimately probably what the dm is there

1987
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:56,880
to do

1988
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:59,440
so two very different experiences

1989
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,880
and then it becomes about

1990
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,960
your own personal

1991
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:05,520
desire for what that experience

1992
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:08,079
should look like or you know how how it

1993
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:10,079
would be best suited to you

1994
01:07:08,079 --> 01:07:11,119
rather than one being wrong and one

1995
01:07:10,079 --> 01:07:12,559
being right

1996
01:07:11,119 --> 01:07:14,559
crazy rules aside some people love

1997
01:07:12,559 --> 01:07:16,559
homebrew that's that's their thing

1998
01:07:14,559 --> 01:07:18,319
i'm not gonna stop them

1999
01:07:16,559 --> 01:07:20,720
yeah exactly and i think that speaks to

2000
01:07:18,319 --> 01:07:22,640
the value of the game as a framework in

2001
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:26,079
that you can can take it

2002
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:27,359
so wildly different directions that

2003
01:07:26,079 --> 01:07:28,559
no other

2004
01:07:27,359 --> 01:07:30,480
medium

2005
01:07:28,559 --> 01:07:32,160
can and i think that's why

2006
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:35,200
i've taken to it in the same way i took

2007
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:37,520
to video games in that it was this

2008
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:39,839
flexibility and freedom back in the day

2009
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:42,240
that films and books can't give you you

2010
01:07:39,839 --> 01:07:44,480
have that area of interactivity and then

2011
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:46,240
again dm layers on top of that not only

2012
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:49,359
a layer of interactivity but a whole

2013
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:51,920
layer of freedom that games often don't

2014
01:07:49,359 --> 01:07:52,799
have because by nature of the code they

2015
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,880
can't

2016
01:07:52,799 --> 01:07:56,400
whereas by nature of human beings you

2017
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:58,240
can because you have

2018
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:01,440
as much freedom as there is in human

2019
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:03,200
nature i remember explaining

2020
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:05,760
d d to my

2021
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:08,400
i'd know 10 11 year old friends when i

2022
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:11,359
first played that game with my brother

2023
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:13,200
um and this is like what like what is it

2024
01:08:11,359 --> 01:08:15,599
how do you do it is that is you know

2025
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:17,279
it's a report is that pieces are there

2026
01:08:15,599 --> 01:08:20,239
yeah and and things that they could only

2027
01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:21,920
relate to and i said like no it's it's

2028
01:08:20,239 --> 01:08:22,880
way more wild than that it can be

2029
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:24,880
anything

2030
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:26,719
it can literally be

2031
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,719
whatever the hell you know you could

2032
01:08:26,719 --> 01:08:29,440
have a you could have a castle you could

2033
01:08:28,719 --> 01:08:30,319
have

2034
01:08:29,440 --> 01:08:32,159
you know

2035
01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:35,759
a pet demon

2036
01:08:32,159 --> 01:08:38,080
it anything's possible and i think

2037
01:08:35,759 --> 01:08:39,520
one of the areas perhaps i i didn't talk

2038
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:42,080
about particularly is

2039
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:45,279
the dnd experience but

2040
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:46,960
that ability to be morphed into anything

2041
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:48,239
is truly

2042
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:50,400
just

2043
01:08:48,239 --> 01:08:53,279
a massive form of escapism

2044
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:54,799
um yeah yeah for everybody and and yeah

2045
01:08:53,279 --> 01:08:55,759
but that's not a negative thing you know

2046
01:08:54,799 --> 01:08:58,080
it's not

2047
01:08:55,759 --> 01:08:59,120
oh my god i need to escape it's but it's

2048
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,520
it's

2049
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:03,440
not mindfulness or anything else you're

2050
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,880
you're stepping away from

2051
01:09:03,440 --> 01:09:06,719
the drudgery and the stress of the

2052
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:08,400
day-to-day that we all have in our lives

2053
01:09:06,719 --> 01:09:10,319
to say well okay let me

2054
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,759
let me put me in a place which has

2055
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:13,199
meaning and

2056
01:09:11,759 --> 01:09:16,480
i can also

2057
01:09:13,199 --> 01:09:18,960
escape into that world and also escape

2058
01:09:16,480 --> 01:09:20,960
personality if i if i want to and and

2059
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,000
explore with all of that stuff

2060
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,000
you know

2061
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:25,120
trial and and do all those sorts of

2062
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:27,040
things that

2063
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,480
you know ultimately come on to

2064
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,679
give your life skills and everything

2065
01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:34,799
else um you know there's such a broad

2066
01:09:31,679 --> 01:09:36,159
broad before to that one thing we're

2067
01:09:34,799 --> 01:09:39,120
trying to

2068
01:09:36,159 --> 01:09:41,440
label this in the the dnd experience

2069
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:44,560
um yeah exactly and you could ask a

2070
01:09:41,440 --> 01:09:45,759
thousand yeah a million players and you

2071
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,719
know whilst there'll be some common

2072
01:09:45,759 --> 01:09:48,319
threads

2073
01:09:46,719 --> 01:09:50,640
every one of them will have their own

2074
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:52,400
their own story to them

2075
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:56,080
that is a really

2076
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:59,760
perfect point to call today's episode to

2077
01:09:56,080 --> 01:10:02,239
an end we've covered

2078
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:04,960
ex human the human experience to use

2079
01:10:02,239 --> 01:10:06,800
such a cliche term i suppose

2080
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:09,600
we are definitely going to have another

2081
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:11,120
one that will be on the mechanical

2082
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,719
experience the best i can come off for

2083
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:14,239
the top of my head

2084
01:10:12,719 --> 01:10:16,560
where i've got i think both of us have

2085
01:10:14,239 --> 01:10:18,719
got again a fair whack to talk about

2086
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:20,960
there in terms of

2087
01:10:18,719 --> 01:10:22,560
on the table rather than at the table

2088
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:24,400
experience so the experience of the

2089
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,080
characters and of

2090
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,080
monsters and

2091
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:30,400
xp and the bits and bobs like those

2092
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:32,560
rules we keep talking about yeah yeah

2093
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:35,040
the framework uh and everything that it

2094
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:37,600
includes but otherwise thank you very

2095
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:40,000
much ian for for joining me today thank

2096
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:42,320
you appreciate the time uh for everyone

2097
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:44,880
at home if you have any thoughts or

2098
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:46,480
comments which i'm hoping you there's a

2099
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:48,320
lot of food for thought there on what

2100
01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:50,159
we've discussed today you can you can

2101
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,840
find me on twitter download underscore

2102
01:10:50,159 --> 01:10:55,460
dnd but otherwise thank you all for

2103
01:10:51,840 --> 01:11:00,649
listening and good night

2104
01:10:55,460 --> 01:11:00,649
[Music]

Ian Langton

Guest