Feb. 12, 2021

Archetypes


For this archetypical chat, I'm joined by Adam Gumbert, a.k.a AdamGumby, where we go through a bunch of different stereotypes and styles of play. Even though some archetypes have negative connotations, when managed and viewed effectively, they can always serve the story. We realise that what matters more than the "edgy rogue" or "adversarial DM", is communication, a topic we've heard time and time again on this podcast. Seriously, we can't stress it enough! No problem is too big for a chat, even if that ends up being "hey, this game isn't for me, and that's alright!". Also included in this episode are ways to reframe the perceived negative archetypes of "rules lawyer" and "my guy" in a positive light for the betterment of the table. And yes, leaving the unprofessional interruption in was a deliberate choice!

  • 01:24 - Alternative character archetypes - limits and expectations
  • 16:35 - What type of DM are you?
  • 30:45 - Managing different kinds of players
  • 47:58 - "Bad guys!" feat. Google

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Intro Music: 'Local Forecast' by Kevin MacLeod
Intermission Music: 'Chill' by Kevin MacLeod
Outro Music: 'Local Forecast - Elevator' by Kevin MacLeod

Transcript

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to thinking critically

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a d and d discussion a podcast where we

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deep dive single word concepts or ideas

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within the dungeons and dragons 5e

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framework my name is danilo and i like

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all kinds of games and the crunchy

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mechanics that make him tick you can

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find me on twitter facebook and

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instagram and i'd really appreciate a

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like or a follow today i'm joined by

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adam gumber aka adamgumby on twitter

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thank you ever so much for joining us

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today adam can you tell us a little bit

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about yourself

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hey yeah appreciate you having me on i

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am adam gumby as everyone knows me

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online i do

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d podcast i'll misfit roles i also do

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the editing for that i've recently

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started a savage world game with some

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friends that's going to become a podcast

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pretty much my twitter is all it's

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either video games or

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tabletop rpgs and that is like what i do

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so a lot of podcasting a lot of d d a

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lot of video games that that's what i'm

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all about awesome perfectly qualified

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then for today's discussion which is on

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the topic of

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archetypes so adam what does what does

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that word mean to you what does

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archetypes mean to you within the dnd

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framework

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yeah i mean archetypes can be looked at

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a couple different ways but basically

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it is what is like a preconceived notion

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or like what is it it's a word like a

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character build or like an idea that's

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it's pretty much it is it nothing here's

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what when you say this word i think of

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this

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and what that means is an archetype so

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if i'm gonna you know just for example i

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want to play

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you know like the the emo

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you know in the corner by myself

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the thief clearly you're playing you're

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playing an emo rogue like that's an

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archetype yeah emo rogue is an archetype

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you know that's basically what it is but

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then

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archetypes were playing different kind

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of characters and playing

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against type

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i think where it gets really interesting

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personally

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yeah yeah i am a big fan of

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i've said it before of like subverting

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expectations and one way to do that is

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by playing against the archetype you

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said so

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i i'm smiling now because i'm looking at

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my notes for this episode and i've

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literally got edgy rogue in quotes

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[Laughter]

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it's always there

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yeah i mean it's

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i guess it's just that

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the aragorn trap right although he's

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more of a ranger i get it but that kind

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of like loner who sits in the corner of

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the of the bar kind of thing although i

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can't think of a better example of that

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uh i mean the thing with archetypes is

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that they normally work so that's why

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people do them but i mean like a good

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artist of like the emo i mean yeah like

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any any adventure or you know any

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fantasy thing where it's like it's the

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quiet dude in the corner it's like we

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don't talk to him and it's just like oh

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he he can get stuff done i guess like

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robin hood would sort of be that like

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before he does the action stuff

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literally i mean any fantasy setting or

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even you know futuristic setting where

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it's like oh you need to get a job done

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go talk to this guy and then it's a

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smoky room and a dude or a girl sitting

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in a corner and it's like there's a

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rogue

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yeah yeah so i've broadly kind of

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approached this from a number of

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different ways the first one as we've

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started talking about it is player

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character so our archetypical player

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characters now we broadly touched on

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this in the episode on roles so

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what kind of mechanical roles

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player characters can play tank healer

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and so on but i wanted to approach that

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from a from this angle the one we've

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been talking about so far of

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that edgy rogue or the

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the mother or father figure

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you know or those other kind of

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the the crazed barbarian i don't know if

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you've got any anecdotes or any any

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thoughts on how they

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maybe add value maybe

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maybe a detriment to the game

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so in in the podcast i do i have misfit

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roles

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the the basics of that is that think of

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like suicide squad but like if their

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movie was good is the way that you say

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it um i'm gonna have to think really

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hard

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i know notre da little even though they

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said i'm jared leto in the game but we

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do we do have archetypes but then we

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also come at it from that some of us are

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villainous or evil you know like suicide

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squad they're not necessarily just like

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the big bad

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but they're you know that sort of a

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character so like with the whole like

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the dad or the uh like the the fatherly

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figure in the group like we have that

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sort of we we make fun of him say he has

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big dad energy is our joke that we have

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in the game but it's he's our hobgoblin

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fighter

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and you know he has to hide his face

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because in this world monsters aren't

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you know everyone's like oh this guy's

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weird but he definitely is like tries to

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corral

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the group you know in a good way and try

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to support everybody even though like

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some of us are literally evil characters

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and some of us are just like imbeciles

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and don't understand the world and like

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again it's that archetype of

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the pseudo leader and i'm keeping things

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in check but it's like i mean he's a big

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giant hobgoblin who's just trying his

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best to deal with these this group of

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idiots so it's like there's the

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archetype but here's a twist and makes a

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little bit different

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yeah yeah that's that's nice that just

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reminds me of a

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one shot i played

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probably over a year ago and i was

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playing a cleric

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and it was

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i really lent in to like the the mumsy

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archetypes i was literally doing like a

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head count at one point like you're

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doing a field trip or something or like

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okay so everyone made it through the

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portal okay

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yes have you got your buddies yeah okay

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right now we're gonna go and fight the

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beholder

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that's great you guys got your lunch

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money

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yeah i think i think i literally cast

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heroes feast so

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fantastic

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as i said earlier on i'm a fan of kind

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of separating expectations so although i

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am all for

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having those

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tropes to use maybe an unfavorable term

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i do like having a little bit of it of a

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spin on them or the alternative is to

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lean so heavily into them you become

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almost like a self parody

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like a caricature of an archetype which

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can be fun too like if you go over the

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moon with it it can be real fun yeah

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yeah just like full on obviously it

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should

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still make sense within the universe i i

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i don't want to suggest anyone go and

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roll some you know kooky

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tight rope walking juggling bar in a

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grim dark

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noir setting because that's just going

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to uh

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probably not

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fit too well it's a little weird yeah

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so yeah there's there's the edgy rogue

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the emo rogue and my game does have

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uh

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not so much

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emo more uh

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sociopathic

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but he's really lent into it and has

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shown signs of character development and

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i think

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that

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archetypes can be a good crutch to begin

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you know certainly for newer players to

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say let me let me build and play with

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something that i'm familiar with or have

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at least seen you know 100 times in pop

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culture

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but then the beauty of the game is that

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you can start to make it your own as you

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said like put a twist on it take it in a

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certain direction so using like a robin

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hood example maybe you don't become

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he's the prince of thieves right robin

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hood yeah and like steals from the rich

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gives us the poor yeah yeah so maybe

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like you don't become the prince of

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thieves kind of good guy robin hood you

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become maybe like a

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more kind of dark timeline

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version yeah

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which obviously has its own coolness

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to it

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i think one thing

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we you and i discussed before

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recording was the concept of kind of

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anti-heroes uh so i don't know what your

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thoughts are on you know having player

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characters be anti-heroes do you think

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you need

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the whole party to be on the same page

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of of kind of that anti-hero

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vibe or is just one enough or what what

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are your thoughts

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i mean well the first thing is is for

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the dm or the person running the game to

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understand what's going on because

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the thing that i personally don't like

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is you know when you have a party and

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someone's like i want to be chaotic evil

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it's like i don't like that

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idea of just like i'm just going to kill

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this random person because i feel like

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it in the middle of the street that's

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just a me thing

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but um the anti-hero thing definitely

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works like in our game it works because

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we all understood when we were going

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into it what we were doing and everybody

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realizes like what we're going for so

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even when some of us do actual evil

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things it's understood like

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hey this is the

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no one goes overboard right yeah like uh

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as for me my character i'm the one who's

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done extremely evil thing but you know

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in his mind it was lawful so it's no big

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deal but it was like you know i had to

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for summon lesser demon you need a vial

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of human blood killed in the last 24

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hours i'm like you know what i got to

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take somebody out um so we were in a big

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town i'm like i told them like hey i'm

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00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:25,680
looking for a person it can just be a

268
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:27,120
drunk just like some random person

269
00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:29,040
yeah just some just some just some

270
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,320
person doesn't matter and i was like i

271
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,839
told one of my friends that the

272
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,600
hobgoblin was like hey can you watch my

273
00:09:31,839 --> 00:09:35,519
back real quick so i didn't involve

274
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,640
everybody no one was uncomfortable and i

275
00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:38,080
went out and i did it and there's a

276
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,560
whole crazy story with that and that

277
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,160
went insane

278
00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,839
but it's like we understood what game we

279
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,000
were going for i didn't force that

280
00:09:43,839 --> 00:09:47,920
decision on everybody

281
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,320
so it's not a big deal and then you know

282
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,399
we did such a good plan the consequences

283
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,920
haven't come back yet so there's a way

284
00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:55,600
you can do it like i said if you

285
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,920
everyone understands it and you plan it

286
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,440
out everyone's like okay that's fine you

287
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,120
know my character's not there it won't

288
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,920
be a big deal you can work it out but

289
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,360
yeah

290
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,200
if you're just like um you know we're

291
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,079
walking down the market

292
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:10,079
we're all a good hero party the wizard

293
00:10:08,079 --> 00:10:11,360
decides to be evil for a second is a

294
00:10:10,079 --> 00:10:13,760
fireball in the middle of a crowded

295
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,320
street like that that's not necessary

296
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,519
and kind of weird but

297
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,720
it's communication if everyone

298
00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:20,320
understands what's going on i think you

299
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,120
can kind of pull off anything you want

300
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:25,600
to do like any hero is very easy to do

301
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,360
it's just like uh you know i don't care

302
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,200
but i guess i'll do a thing that's good

303
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,880
but i don't care like that's easier than

304
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,720
evil but like it's communication it's

305
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,000
all about communication yeah i think

306
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,880
you've talked about a number of really

307
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,600
good points there and the one thing that

308
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,480
i like to hammer home a lot is

309
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:45,360
i absolutely see that chaotic evil is a

310
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,640
thing and exists but it is not chaotic

311
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,360
stupid

312
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,200
so those examples you gave of

313
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,680
walking downtown and i set the market on

314
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,040
fire that's kind of like chaotic stupid

315
00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:57,360
because the consequences of those

316
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,800
actions are well you're gonna go you're

317
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,519
gonna get in trouble

318
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:04,160
which doesn't really help anyone

319
00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:05,760
and like you know fighting guards or the

320
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,640
police and stuff like that that's that's

321
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,000
just

322
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,240
chaos

323
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,320
for the sake of it and if you if you die

324
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,959
then you can't create chaos anymore so

325
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,959
it's kind of counter productive to set

326
00:11:14,959 --> 00:11:19,519
the marketplace on fire so i'm a big

327
00:11:16,959 --> 00:11:20,399
proponent of yeah do do chaotic evil but

328
00:11:19,519 --> 00:11:22,880
just

329
00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:25,279
do it in almost like a

330
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,399
an insidious way

331
00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:28,480
which

332
00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:30,800
as you said is is difficult to do it

333
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,600
it's it's it's definitely harder to play

334
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,079
the

335
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,560
extremes of the alignments than it is

336
00:11:34,079 --> 00:11:38,240
the middle ground as you would expect

337
00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,519
to a certain extent

338
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,360
and the spell you mentioned funnily

339
00:11:39,519 --> 00:11:44,000
enough i used that in one of my

340
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:47,519
uh in you know main campaign that i play

341
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:49,680
in and now i feel probably worse than i

342
00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:51,519
did at the time we were lucky that uh

343
00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:53,600
you know my character was fortunate that

344
00:11:51,519 --> 00:11:55,920
they knew somebody who can who can get

345
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,440
things you know they're a fixer yeah i

346
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,720
said yeah we've got a we've got

347
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,880
something coming up or i could use a

348
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:04,399
lesser demon funnily enough so

349
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,680
could you get me this component and sure

350
00:12:04,399 --> 00:12:08,480
enough a couple of hours later they go

351
00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:10,160
hey gay don't worry about it and so

352
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,120
in that instance my character is very

353
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,519
much in

354
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,519
a plausible deniability

355
00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:18,000
ignorance is bliss

356
00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:21,600
situation and i probably haven't really

357
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,680
grappled with the ramifications quite of

358
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,040
what that meant in the universe he was

359
00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:26,399
probably in denial and probably thought

360
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,720
hey they probably you know they probably

361
00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:30,240
just went down to the morgue you know no

362
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,839
one had to die they just popped down to

363
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,320
the morgue and

364
00:12:31,839 --> 00:12:36,079
it was all kosher natural causes had

365
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,760
nothing to do with this exactly yeah

366
00:12:36,079 --> 00:12:40,000
when in reality it almost definitely

367
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:43,760
wasn't that so

368
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,279
uh and that spell is sick so yeah i'm i

369
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,200
can totally see why

370
00:12:45,279 --> 00:12:48,399
you guys did that

371
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,160
the other thing i wanted to mention is

372
00:12:48,399 --> 00:12:51,760
as you said it's it's a communication

373
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,600
thing and

374
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,600
the ironic thing is is that in the game

375
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,639
that i'm dming

376
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,040
i'm

377
00:12:56,639 --> 00:13:00,240
probably the one least aligned and and

378
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,160
i'm the dm

379
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,279
and since we've been talking about it

380
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:08,079
today i've had the realization that

381
00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:09,839
my players are playing an anti-hero

382
00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:11,839
campaign

383
00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:12,880
and up until that realization i've been

384
00:13:11,839 --> 00:13:15,200
very much

385
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,839
thinking that it's the typical hero

386
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:20,000
fantasy and then so i've been

387
00:13:17,839 --> 00:13:22,079
kind of jarring a little bit against

388
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,360
don't kill these kobolds you don't have

389
00:13:22,079 --> 00:13:25,440
to kill these cobols because they're

390
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,040
still living sentient creatures but

391
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,040
they're just like well

392
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,959
it doesn't matter to us yeah that's

393
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,760
that's why we specifically

394
00:13:30,959 --> 00:13:35,760
went for the you know the evil your bad

395
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,440
guys game because he was like you're

396
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,800
supposed to be heroes but you literally

397
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,320
will kill anybody whoever gets in your

398
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,160
way like in a typical campaign like

399
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,920
you'll kill anybody you'll steal if you

400
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,279
have a rogue he's like let's just lean

401
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,639
into it forget it don't even worry about

402
00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:48,160
trying to be pretend to be goody two

403
00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:49,920
shoes even though a couple of our

404
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,079
characters say that they're goody two

405
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,000
shoes he's like we'll lean into it a

406
00:13:52,079 --> 00:13:56,000
little bit not too much but you guys can

407
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,399
there's a reason that you guys do stupid

408
00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,160
d t stuff because some of you guys are

409
00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:02,720
evil that's fine yeah i think i think

410
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,000
that's probably the better way to do it

411
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,880
just because it's

412
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:10,480
it's easier to be a good character in a

413
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:13,120
bad leaning party than it is to be a

414
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,000
bad character in a good leaning party i

415
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,600
think

416
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:19,279
because if you've got say four or five

417
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:21,680
goodie two shoes you know pious zealots

418
00:14:19,279 --> 00:14:23,199
i won't even i'll pay over the odds for

419
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,199
i'll never barter because they need to

420
00:14:23,199 --> 00:14:26,959
make a living wage kind of thing the one

421
00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:28,480
rogue is just gonna feel

422
00:14:26,959 --> 00:14:29,760
like he's gonna get lynched and in fact

423
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,600
that happened in

424
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,839
the in person campaign

425
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,560
i i'm playing or was playing in before

426
00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:38,399
we took it on hiatus where

427
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,199
the rogue player and that was was very

428
00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:40,720
much

429
00:14:39,199 --> 00:14:42,160
a bad dude

430
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,959
and it got to the point where he you

431
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,800
know

432
00:14:42,959 --> 00:14:46,079
said damn every all the characters hate

433
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,680
me

434
00:14:46,079 --> 00:14:49,360
so yeah

435
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,360
so my guy isn't really having a lot of

436
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,279
fun because he's he's having to watch

437
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,360
his back all the time and

438
00:14:53,279 --> 00:14:57,600
can we take him in a direction where

439
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,480
he maybe leaves the party and it ended

440
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,760
up being

441
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,199
your classic

442
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,560
betrayal

443
00:15:01,199 --> 00:15:05,839
and he's now a minor bad guy the the dm

444
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,880
is controlling and that players come

445
00:15:05,839 --> 00:15:09,120
back as a

446
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,040
as a like a furbolg bard or something

447
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,800
that's just super friendly and

448
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,040
he's like canadian

449
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,839
yeah and um

450
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:20,079
whereas if you're in like you said like

451
00:15:17,839 --> 00:15:21,839
slightly leaning into the bad guys

452
00:15:20,079 --> 00:15:23,600
kind of thing i think it's ever so

453
00:15:21,839 --> 00:15:25,839
slightly easier to just play like the

454
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,079
oblivious

455
00:15:25,839 --> 00:15:30,000
yeah just like i'm not in like i'm gonna

456
00:15:28,079 --> 00:15:31,360
turn turn the other way i'm not involved

457
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,759
with this let me know if someone you

458
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,120
know is doing evil but if you know if

459
00:15:33,759 --> 00:15:37,680
you didn't see it didn't hear it didn't

460
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:40,160
happen right yeah yeah or like i'm just

461
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,839
gonna go and pray today safe yeah that

462
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,759
just gives you guys

463
00:15:41,839 --> 00:15:45,360
yeah and that just gives them the right

464
00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:46,800
the opportunity to do they want kind of

465
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,480
thing so

466
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,800
so yeah i think that's that's i've had a

467
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,959
weird epiphany since i've only been on

468
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:56,079
15 minutes and i've already had an

469
00:15:52,959 --> 00:15:58,639
epiphany so i think i'm sorry

470
00:15:56,079 --> 00:15:59,759
that that's great that's great um if uh

471
00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,000
for those that you know listen to the

472
00:15:59,759 --> 00:16:03,199
podcast i know that i'm on a holiday now

473
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,360
actually by the time this comes out i'll

474
00:16:03,199 --> 00:16:07,440
probably be back in the dm seat after

475
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,560
having a couple months off and i guess

476
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,240
the biggest takeaway for me from doing

477
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,120
this podcast and especially this episode

478
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,160
is

479
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,839
the people i've talked to and everything

480
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,199
i've learned i'm going to come back a

481
00:16:13,839 --> 00:16:17,199
much better

482
00:16:15,199 --> 00:16:18,880
dm so

483
00:16:17,199 --> 00:16:20,480
thanks

484
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,079
that's good man more experience more

485
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,440
viewpoints you make for a better game

486
00:16:22,079 --> 00:16:25,600
i've learned stuff to do and you know

487
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,959
whenever we get back to uh doing season

488
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,079
two i've learned some things that i can

489
00:16:26,959 --> 00:16:29,360
do you know listening to people's

490
00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:30,959
podcasts and people's experience i'm

491
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,839
like yeah i'll definitely change that up

492
00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:32,959
um

493
00:16:31,839 --> 00:16:35,920
yeah

494
00:16:32,959 --> 00:16:38,399
great i'm feeling super chuffed now

495
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:41,120
so we've talked a little bit about um

496
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:44,560
player character archetypes yeah yeah

497
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,160
anti-heroes yeah your hero heroes uh

498
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,079
there's probably a tv tropes term for

499
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,320
hero heroes rather than the one i'm just

500
00:16:48,079 --> 00:16:51,920
making up on the spot but true heroes

501
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,360
yeah

502
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:57,120
um

503
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:59,519
but that's a good segue there into dm

504
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:02,160
archetypes so

505
00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:04,480
my comment on this was

506
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,559
there is a bit of a archetype around

507
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,480
kind of adversarial

508
00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:10,160
dungeon masters your tomb of horrors

509
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,319
dungeon masters

510
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,439
uh so what kind of

511
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:14,880
what's what's

512
00:17:13,439 --> 00:17:15,919
do you dm at all i guess is a good

513
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,559
question

514
00:17:15,919 --> 00:17:20,160
yeah i have in the past i dm'd for about

515
00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:21,360
two years before i got in the campaign i

516
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,280
was like hey and it was one of my

517
00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:24,959
players who actually dm's that campaign

518
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,240
now i'm like thank god you take over

519
00:17:24,959 --> 00:17:27,839
because i just want to play it at this

520
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,520
point but yeah i did it for for quite a

521
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,600
while for a couple different groups ah

522
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,440
cool so what what style what kind of

523
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,120
archetypical dm would you consider

524
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,960
yourself and perhaps the player that

525
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:38,000
took over what about them and and how do

526
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,039
they differ

527
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,960
it changes when you first dm ever it's

528
00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:44,080
that like over prepared archetype where

529
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,160
it's like i've got to make sure

530
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:49,039
everything is right every person has a

531
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:51,120
name and every situation has a possible

532
00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:52,160
outcome and then when you learn i might

533
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,640
as well throw that out the window that

534
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,480
doesn't necessarily matter so much

535
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,720
broad strokes is better than trying to

536
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,120
do fine lines for me anyways

537
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:04,240
i got to the point where i was just

538
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:06,080
i got silly really um because i had a

539
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,600
bunch of groups that uh like they would

540
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,720
go for a little bit then you know half

541
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,679
the people would leave or whatever

542
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,080
something like all right we're going to

543
00:18:09,679 --> 00:18:14,080
do a west marches style where it's just

544
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,679
you guys have a base and whenever you

545
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,520
can show up make whatever character you

546
00:18:15,679 --> 00:18:19,039
want make a new one bring your old one

547
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,960
and i have one shots and we're just

548
00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:23,039
gonna play a bunch of one shots

549
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,559
and then i i got it was all real silly

550
00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:26,480
and real fun like

551
00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:29,120
one of them we literally met shaggy from

552
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,559
scooby doo he was a monk hanging out i

553
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,440
was just like

554
00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:33,200
you know

555
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,880
at this point where everyone's just

556
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,000
people are non-committal and then

557
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,880
certain people want to play a lot i'm

558
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,480
like i'm not going to do a big

559
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,720
overarching campaign

560
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,720
um i want to but it's too difficult you

561
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,880
know people going in and out i was like

562
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,160
let's just have fun so i was like

563
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,080
they're like i want to try this i'm like

564
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,600
you know what roll it i don't care let's

565
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,000
let's figure it out if you fail it'll be

566
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,840
fun and if you succeed we'll

567
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,760
you know i'll explain the ridiculousness

568
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,320
of you doing a backflip over a moving

569
00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:00,480
cart to like steal a coin purse off the

570
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,240
top or whatever so yeah i definitely

571
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,640
turn to that like we're just going to be

572
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:07,600
silly and go over the top and have fun

573
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,880
hmm yeah that's nice of just that the

574
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,600
freedom

575
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,880
uh of both the players and for yourself

576
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,039
just to have that

577
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,240
salinas as you said

578
00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:18,640
for

579
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:22,080
uh myself i'm

580
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:25,039
in a in a big campaign damn big campaign

581
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,240
along well man it's it's it's gonna it

582
00:19:25,039 --> 00:19:28,880
feels like forever and it feels like

583
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,080
it's gonna go on forever due to

584
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,080
me

585
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,440
doing a little bit too much and the

586
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,160
players taking

587
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,840
longer than i would have expected oh i

588
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,120
know all about that yeah which i

589
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,120
probably should have seen coming yeah

590
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:45,039
so i'm

591
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:48,480
adjusting future campaign arcs and

592
00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:51,280
seasons accordingly by here bringing

593
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,039
down some of the complexity just to make

594
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,919
it so we're not retired by the time we

595
00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:55,440
finish

596
00:19:53,919 --> 00:19:57,039
but how do you feel about that kind of

597
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,960
adversarial

598
00:19:57,039 --> 00:20:00,240
dm archetype but the more older school

599
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,799
one of

600
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,960
i'm here to fight the players

601
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:06,880
it's an interesting one i think

602
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:10,000
again depending on the game you're

603
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,919
playing it can be absolutely fine so you

604
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,320
know i mostly played d d i just started

605
00:20:11,919 --> 00:20:15,840
playing savage worlds um

606
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,120
because that you know why the game

607
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:20,240
wanted to run that i was like sure i'll

608
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:23,200
give it a try and that game is just a

609
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:25,600
lot more it's an adversarial just on the

610
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,280
basis that like anybody can get one hit

611
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,480
at any time just based on how that's how

612
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,559
dice go

613
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,960
so it's like in that campaign i'm just

614
00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:33,919
ready for anybody to die at any point

615
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,240
because that's how it's supposed to be

616
00:20:33,919 --> 00:20:37,440
so i'm fine with that there it can be a

617
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,200
problem where

618
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,520
if everyone thinks like oh this is gonna

619
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,520
be you know i'm gonna level up this

620
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,799
character we're gonna just do whatever

621
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,640
we want you know not necessarily in a

622
00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:48,480
bad way but it's like we know we have

623
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,320
goals we're going to finish them off

624
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,000
and the dm's like

625
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,600
maybe has different plans and those

626
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,039
plans don't line up i can definitely see

627
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,760
that being a problem i've been lucky to

628
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:59,039
not play in that kind of game um i

629
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,480
definitely have seen it i know people

630
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:02,159
have told about it

631
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,440
again that's also another communication

632
00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:05,760
thing because i i think there's nothing

633
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,360
wrong with like a deadly game or an

634
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,480
adversarial game

635
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:12,400
but players need to be prepared for what

636
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,159
they're getting into because though it's

637
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,200
always the problem where

638
00:21:14,159 --> 00:21:16,320
you know everyone's playing they

639
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,000
understand what's going on and the one

640
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,600
person's like well i wanted to be able

641
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,880
to do this and i'm upset that i can't do

642
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,159
this i'm like well

643
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,000
someone should have known what was going

644
00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:26,080
on at some point here not saying

645
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,440
anyone's wrong or anyone's right

646
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,480
so you should have known what you're

647
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,400
getting into and if it's not your kind

648
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,720
of game you know you can be polite and

649
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,640
either fix it or not deal with it but

650
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,000
people want to stay around and that's

651
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,120
where the adversary comes in where it's

652
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,720
like

653
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:41,360
when people aren't matching up and no

654
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,720
one wants to figure out a way to fix it

655
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,559
so like that's definitely a thing like

656
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,240
there are people archetypes like this is

657
00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:47,440
how i'd run games this is how i'm doing

658
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,840
it because i've been playing for 30

659
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,400
years and a new player might not like

660
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,000
that and it's just like that's how this

661
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,520
game is hmm

662
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,280
yeah a couple of interesting points in

663
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,799
that i'm

664
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,120
it's it's weird

665
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:02,559
my experience is limited in this

666
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:04,320
sense in that

667
00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:05,679
apart from one time i've only ever

668
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,640
played with

669
00:22:05,679 --> 00:22:10,799
people i know friends colleagues

670
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,400
but girlfriend um

671
00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:14,000
that kind of stuff

672
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,120
the one time

673
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,720
i played with strangers in person going

674
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,919
back about three years at this point

675
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,120
wasn't

676
00:22:19,919 --> 00:22:24,320
particularly enjoyable

677
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,760
let's just say they were playing a

678
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,840
different game and i'll leave it at that

679
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,080
oh that was them playing the mtg game

680
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,360
right

681
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,960
yes

682
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,240
yes if you were expecting one thing and

683
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,600
then that's what you got with them

684
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,280
trying to do a completely different

685
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,720
system and playing for themselves yeah i

686
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,400
would not want to play that game i

687
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,280
understand that completely

688
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,320
yeah so it's it's interesting uh

689
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,600
and

690
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,360
you know i i approached it quite

691
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,840
maturely if i do say say myself of just

692
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:51,039
you know politely declining to return

693
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,200
but even with

694
00:22:51,039 --> 00:22:55,760
playing with friends it's still as i

695
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,400
said earlier on like my

696
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:01,039
hero hero idea of

697
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:04,080
my current game is is patently not true

698
00:23:01,039 --> 00:23:06,559
and the more i try to bend it to be that

699
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:10,240
the more there's going to be friction

700
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:12,400
and issues so yeah that's that's

701
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:16,240
interesting do you think your

702
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,159
player who turned dm player down dm

703
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,559
uh do you think he was impacted at all

704
00:23:18,159 --> 00:23:23,440
or was uh kind of

705
00:23:20,559 --> 00:23:26,159
inspired at all by yourself

706
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:28,640
he very much um

707
00:23:26,159 --> 00:23:29,679
seemed to be like the way you explain it

708
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,000
where

709
00:23:29,679 --> 00:23:33,919
he seemed extremely prepared had a

710
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,679
a broad idea for it and we're still

711
00:23:33,919 --> 00:23:37,280
going on that path but

712
00:23:35,679 --> 00:23:39,120
us as players

713
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,720
knowing this as the editor who gets to

714
00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:41,840
cut out you know

715
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,440
the things that you know aren't

716
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,360
important to the story it's like there's

717
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,960
a lot of a lot of [ __ ] around and

718
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,200
there's nothing wrong with it it's fun

719
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,440
it's great in the moment but him being

720
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,600
like all right here's my giant plan

721
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,279
and then sometimes we'll

722
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,360
take longer so he's learned from he's

723
00:23:55,279 --> 00:23:59,360
learned to dm for us better i think this

724
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,200
is what i'm getting at so

725
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:03,279
like we went to a town

726
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,960
and we had like this big giant adventure

727
00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:06,799
or you know like a session and a half

728
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,000
there doing our thing and he's like i

729
00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:09,039
had literally two sentence written down

730
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,559
because you were supposed to go through

731
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,080
here but we played it by ear and i

732
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:14,640
figured it out because i know you guys

733
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,400
can get caught up on literally anything

734
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,880
and then we'll be here for a little bit

735
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,880
so he's learned to he still has his

736
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:24,080
style his you know his overall plan that

737
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,919
he has but he's left wiggle room

738
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,640
to cater to the way that we play you

739
00:24:25,919 --> 00:24:30,640
know not breaking but bending for the

740
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,559
way that that we play which i think i

741
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,080
think he's uh a really good dm i think i

742
00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:36,000
like his style more than i liked my own

743
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,559
when i was doing it to be honest

744
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,120
oh that's that is high praise good on

745
00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:44,080
him so we talked about dungeon masters

746
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,360
and role they fit in but now we've we've

747
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,400
had that discussion and i can think

748
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:51,360
about it it definitely seems

749
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,960
almost like a redundant question because

750
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,520
the nature of the game and the nature of

751
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:58,000
that position is so fluid

752
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,480
that there isn't really an archetype

753
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,080
that they can't be because it's so

754
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,480
it differs from table to table from

755
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,559
person to person and party to pie it's

756
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,720
just a unique combination of the whole

757
00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:10,080
is greater than some of its parts almost

758
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,919
which is

759
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,840
interesting i mean there can be

760
00:25:11,919 --> 00:25:15,440
archetypes for dms but if they're not

761
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,960
fluid at all that's where you can run

762
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,400
into problems

763
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,240
so i guess there's one

764
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,679
the not fluid dm

765
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,960
yeah like now this is the way i'm doing

766
00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:24,480
it where i'm i'm not changing for

767
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,320
anything it's like oh boy this is gonna

768
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,679
be a long one yeah

769
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,360
yeah i

770
00:25:27,679 --> 00:25:31,760
pride myself on

771
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:34,240
having the flexibility to change but

772
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,520
things have to be justifiable in

773
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,840
universe justified to me and have kind

774
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,799
of like a a contextual

775
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:46,400
reasoning to do so so like taking the

776
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:48,480
backflip example or whatever if you can

777
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,360
sell it to me essentially

778
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,720
then

779
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:52,799
we're good to go

780
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,880
it almost it almost comes across like a

781
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:56,400
you know a dragon's den shark tank kind

782
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,159
of thing when players want to do stuff

783
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,640
i'm like well let me hear you out come

784
00:25:58,159 --> 00:26:02,400
on put your proposal on the table why do

785
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,679
you want to how do you how are you going

786
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,679
to do this

787
00:26:03,679 --> 00:26:07,200
when i kick flip off of this and i jump

788
00:26:05,679 --> 00:26:09,840
on the crate and then i swing from the

789
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,000
light and then i turn upside down and

790
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,039
okay that's dope absolutely you can do

791
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,640
that

792
00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:16,240
hit at least a 20 on a deck check and

793
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,039
you can do that i do not care how you

794
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,240
have it yeah yeah precisely and then a

795
00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:21,919
couple of home brew things that have

796
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,760
come across of players saying like oh

797
00:26:21,919 --> 00:26:25,919
it'd be cool if if i had this or i'd

798
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,240
like to build this and

799
00:26:25,919 --> 00:26:30,880
yeah we've we've got there in the end

800
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:34,240
despite some initial trepidation on my

801
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,840
part due to well anxiety which um

802
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,679
you know i've got better at so hey

803
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,279
there's there's some some progression

804
00:26:37,679 --> 00:26:40,640
for you there that's good i actually do

805
00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:42,559
have a thing that i thought of since

806
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,679
we've been talking about archetypes

807
00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:46,799
which is

808
00:26:43,679 --> 00:26:48,640
this definitely varies from dm to dm you

809
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:50,320
have the

810
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,600
people feel away whatever they want

811
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,520
about matt mercer but there's a matt

812
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,840
mercer style where it's like

813
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,919
very descriptive tries to do character

814
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,559
voices you know that kind of thing which

815
00:26:57,919 --> 00:26:59,760
is

816
00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:01,200
you know everyone has that ability but

817
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,840
it's very cool when you can do it you

818
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,080
know and then you also have the um i

819
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,600
think it's harman quest i've never

820
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,960
watched it fully but i've had people

821
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,559
talk to me about it where he like

822
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,000
doesn't do any voices he's very

823
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:13,840
straightforward like he's reading from a

824
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,360
book and you play it like that so i

825
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,240
guess again i think it's harming

826
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:18,000
question might be wrong we'll never

827
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,559
listen to it so i don't want to

828
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,960
misquote it but there's definitely

829
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:24,640
the person who's the dm who's like i do

830
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,760
voices i want to do a lot of social

831
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,720
stuff

832
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,640
but there's

833
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,760
dm's who look the three pillars

834
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,039
differently

835
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,320
so some people are just like you know

836
00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:34,159
there's social stuff you know just talk

837
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,679
to them roll it we're done those other

838
00:27:34,159 --> 00:27:37,039
people are like let's have a full

839
00:27:35,679 --> 00:27:39,279
conversation

840
00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,960
the way you talk to me will affect how

841
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:42,880
these you know there are people who

842
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,360
approach the game differently not

843
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,399
necessarily a style or an archetype but

844
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,720
like

845
00:27:46,399 --> 00:27:50,080
hardline this is what i do

846
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,480
and then other people are like this is

847
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,080
how i do it like i want to do mostly

848
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,679
like i've never done a dungeon crawl

849
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,679
because to me that doesn't sound

850
00:27:55,679 --> 00:27:59,919
extremely exciting i like doing dungeon

851
00:27:57,679 --> 00:28:02,559
parts but i like doing i like a 50 50 of

852
00:27:59,919 --> 00:28:04,320
social and yeah uh of combat stuff and

853
00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:05,760
there are dms for just like you know

854
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,600
it's gonna be 80 combat and i'm not

855
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,600
doing voices because that's only 20 of

856
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,000
my game so i'm not doing social stuff in

857
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,960
depth like somebody who would do

858
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,320
you know either a 50 50 or like a 70 30.

859
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,279
like i want to do a lot of social and

860
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,039
we'll have a little bit of combat

861
00:28:17,279 --> 00:28:21,440
because it's fun but

862
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:23,120
that's an archetype for sure

863
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,559
yeah i i

864
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,640
i mean you can be the mapmaster

865
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:28,840
archetype if you're a trained you know

866
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:32,399
career professional it's good to be met

867
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,520
mercer so i can yeah i can see why

868
00:28:32,399 --> 00:28:36,159
people

869
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,799
want to be like that but it is it is

870
00:28:36,159 --> 00:28:39,840
a fine line especially if you're writing

871
00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:42,559
the fluff

872
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,799
yourself like narrative fluff

873
00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:47,440
you know none of us say well i imagine

874
00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:49,520
very few of us are creative writers you

875
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:53,840
know there is the venn diagram sometimes

876
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:56,159
overlaps but i imagine most dm's aren't

877
00:28:53,840 --> 00:29:00,480
creative writers by trade so

878
00:28:56,159 --> 00:29:02,000
writing good fluff for rooms in regions

879
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,880
and areas

880
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,440
can be quite easy to get wrong like you

881
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,960
just talk garbage for 10 minutes and at

882
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,039
the end your players like

883
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,799
what was that

884
00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:14,080
okay i got bored halfway through because

885
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:15,679
you were just where's the door at that's

886
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,200
all i need to know yeah yeah because you

887
00:29:15,679 --> 00:29:21,200
were just talking about the grains of

888
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:23,600
sand and the the dust and the

889
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:27,520
the species of squirrel that inhabit

890
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:30,320
this area and like

891
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,240
it's you know tight rope walking that

892
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,000
fine line of

893
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,960
here's enough thematic

894
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,760
juice

895
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,679
but

896
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,440
not just superfluous garbage that no one

897
00:29:37,679 --> 00:29:40,799
cares about because then you have the

898
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,679
opposite where it's like you walk in a

899
00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:45,840
room uh from the south uh there's a door

900
00:29:43,679 --> 00:29:47,520
to the north okay yeah anything else

901
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,000
anything else going on dm what's going

902
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,520
on here yeah like those literal like

903
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,440
amiga dungeon crawlers which are

904
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,679
literally like forward left right

905
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,679
forward left right

906
00:29:55,679 --> 00:29:58,799
like we've we've we've come so far since

907
00:29:57,679 --> 00:30:00,000
then so

908
00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:02,399
yes

909
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,799
yeah i'm i'm completely of the same

910
00:30:02,399 --> 00:30:06,840
school of thought as yours i

911
00:30:04,799 --> 00:30:10,480
i'll add a dungeon in where it's

912
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:12,480
necessary but it is always thematic if

913
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,799
anyone were to say it's a dungeon crawl

914
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,000
that would be a failure in my eyes on my

915
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,720
part

916
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,960
if they felt that way about it because i

917
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,640
wanted to be more than that yeah i agree

918
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,240
i was the exact same way i'm like big

919
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,000
open spaces

920
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,840
we'll go inside once in a while to do

921
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,440
stuff that's like yeah let's not just

922
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,360
all right i'm in the dungeon now i don't

923
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,720
like that people to feel that way again

924
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:36,919
it's just a personal thing that's that's

925
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,919
my my thing so yeah

926
00:30:37,250 --> 00:30:40,579
[Music]

927
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,520
so talked about dms let's

928
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,880
loop back around and i've got a really

929
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,640
juicy one at the end

930
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,200
i'm keeping on on the back so let's

931
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,960
before we get there let's talk about

932
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,840
typical players

933
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,279
and

934
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,840
i'll open up the discussion with

935
00:31:01,279 --> 00:31:07,440
the obvious one about as obvious as the

936
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,320
emo rogue we have the rules lawyer

937
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,679
yes

938
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,360
so have you got any experience of that

939
00:31:11,679 --> 00:31:15,440
type of player

940
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,200
you know good bad

941
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,200
what are your thoughts

942
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,200
so i've got it it depends you're right

943
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,279
it when you say rules lawyer it normally

944
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,799
feels bad yeah because it can be where

945
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:26,960
someone's talking over you like by

946
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:28,960
actually no one wants to hear that and

947
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,600
the games i've played are quote unquote

948
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,480
rules lawyer is a guy who's got about 30

949
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,720
years

950
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,159
of experience and it's like oh how does

951
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,519
this work he's like hold on actually i

952
00:31:36,159 --> 00:31:39,519
think it's like this

953
00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,679
so it's more of an ask and a tale

954
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:43,760
instead of just interrupt and tell

955
00:31:41,679 --> 00:31:45,279
and then playing a wizard i have to know

956
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,519
all that stuff

957
00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:48,880
so if anyone else so we have

958
00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:50,720
you know like i'm a full wizard we have

959
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,640
someone else who was an arcane trickster

960
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,559
and then they took a level and wizard so

961
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,080
i'm like if you got questions you know i

962
00:31:54,559 --> 00:31:57,360
i believe me i've read over it enough i

963
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,559
can help you out

964
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,320
but i'm not like hey you're doing your

965
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:02,399
spell wrong it's like how to wait a

966
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,919
minute am i like it's this you're good

967
00:32:02,399 --> 00:32:06,159
how about it and then like i said the

968
00:32:03,919 --> 00:32:07,760
guy who's got tons of experience like we

969
00:32:06,159 --> 00:32:09,120
look at him like hey

970
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,760
you know what's going on he's like oh

971
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,600
yeah i got you so that's good type but

972
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,440
there's i had a couple of experiences

973
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,960
not gonna name names of where it's bad

974
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,480
it's like can i just play can i just

975
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,640
play the game can we just play the game

976
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,039
he's like actually we need to

977
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,200
you need the component it's like

978
00:32:23,039 --> 00:32:27,679
all right i understand but you know you

979
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,480
could you could say this nicer i suppose

980
00:32:27,679 --> 00:32:30,559
yeah

981
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,039
it's interesting i've been fortunate

982
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:35,760
enough not to have ever experienced a

983
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:37,120
proper like the the negative version of

984
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,880
a rules lawyer and you're right it does

985
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,039
have a negative connotation

986
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,799
probably wrongly so because

987
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:45,120
i'd imagine nine times out of ten it's

988
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:46,799
more what you described of

989
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,360
i've got a question

990
00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:50,640
how does this work again so i'm

991
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,039
fortunate enough to have one or two of

992
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:56,240
those in in my game as my players and

993
00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:57,840
they are often because i'm forgetful and

994
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,760
it's just like god i can't remember if

995
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,760
you get hit when you're incapacitated is

996
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,840
that a death save or is that a crit i

997
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,720
you know can someone tell me here

998
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,320
yeah

999
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,799
and they usually jump in there and

1000
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,720
they're like oh it's this or it's yeah

1001
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:11,919
it's two to saves and a crit and this

1002
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,360
that and the other one

1003
00:33:11,919 --> 00:33:16,480
and and that's

1004
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:18,080
how they lawyer us to have fun

1005
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,000
yeah exactly laura's gonna be good

1006
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,600
especially like when you're at that mid

1007
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,120
to upper levels

1008
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,720
where yeah if you have someone else

1009
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,120
who's played a high level spellcaster

1010
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,320
and it's your first time absolutely look

1011
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,679
for because there's it can get

1012
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,440
complicated that's why they tell new

1013
00:33:29,679 --> 00:33:32,960
players to play a fighter because the

1014
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,880
spellcasting can get pretty hard when

1015
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,960
you get up there yeah yeah funnily

1016
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,799
enough in the the actual playpodcast i

1017
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,240
mean i also play a wizard i think my

1018
00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:44,000
level uh

1019
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,279
tennis give or take and same yeah it's

1020
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,640
there's

1021
00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:49,519
the court is big and you've got a lot of

1022
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:52,480
balls to throw around

1023
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:53,600
one of the players in a short campaign

1024
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,840
i'm running

1025
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,760
i took over the dm for a little while i

1026
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,519
think i mentioned it way earlier on in

1027
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,760
an earlier episode but

1028
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:03,600
he literally pendulum swung from playing

1029
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,480
a barbarian and then in the short

1030
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:09,359
campaign we're playing now a wizard and

1031
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,720
i was like okay dude you have just you

1032
00:34:09,359 --> 00:34:12,240
know no disrespect to barbarians my

1033
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:15,520
favorite character i'm playing right now

1034
00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:17,839
is my barbarian it's sick i love him

1035
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,679
but he has just opened that book

1036
00:34:17,839 --> 00:34:21,919
and and seen that there's like 10 more

1037
00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:24,159
chapters

1038
00:34:21,919 --> 00:34:25,280
an hour yes to learn

1039
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,599
and

1040
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,639
a good anecdote of that is before we

1041
00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:30,720
started

1042
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:32,960
i was sitting through and was like just

1043
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:34,720
just be careful because

1044
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,399
wizards and their spell books are a bit

1045
00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:38,560
of a minefield with trying to work out

1046
00:34:36,399 --> 00:34:40,320
how many spells you have versus learnt

1047
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,480
versus are prepared

1048
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,839
yeah yeah so be a bit careful because

1049
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,159
it's very easy to

1050
00:34:43,839 --> 00:34:48,800
to screw up there and we're using d

1051
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,240
beyond and it doesn't i think on dnd

1052
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,079
blind you can just keep adding spells

1053
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:53,599
because it you might pick them up you

1054
00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:55,839
know as a wizard you can just pick up

1055
00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:57,280
new spells as you're walking around so

1056
00:34:55,839 --> 00:34:58,880
so we went through that and i explained

1057
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,760
to him and all that and he's oh this

1058
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,640
isn't

1059
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,560
i need

1060
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,520
can i have some more spells that i've

1061
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,760
learned

1062
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,599
through our traveling we've gone through

1063
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,960
i'm like dude you're literally the most

1064
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:10,000
flexible class you've gone from no

1065
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,720
spells

1066
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,800
to the class with the most flexibility

1067
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:16,880
and you still want more so that was my

1068
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,119
first thought process there of

1069
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,079
i don't know maybe something's not quite

1070
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,920
correct

1071
00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:24,640
in his understanding because this is

1072
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,560
like the most flexible you can be yeah

1073
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,119
and the most utility of

1074
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,480
pretty much any class so we we basically

1075
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:31,920
agreed yeah okay

1076
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,240
let's say you would have started with

1077
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,320
500 gold you can spend that to

1078
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:38,400
transcribe spells into your book until

1079
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,359
you've run out of that money so we ended

1080
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,440
up you know adding say five more than a

1081
00:35:41,359 --> 00:35:45,040
regular wizard who'd never found any

1082
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,240
spells would be at that point which is

1083
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,560
where i find my wizards that and we're a

1084
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:52,640
couple of sessions in now and i don't

1085
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,520
know whether it's ironic or

1086
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:58,400
awkward or whatever but i i can probably

1087
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,760
count on one hand the number of spells

1088
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,119
he's cast

1089
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,200
uh arcane eye fireball

1090
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:06,640
invisibility

1091
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,560
witch bolt

1092
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,560
silence

1093
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,240
and that might be it actually some

1094
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,839
cantrips and that's about it yeah yeah

1095
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:16,440
and all the obviously um

1096
00:36:13,839 --> 00:36:18,079
oh magic missile six sorry two hands um

1097
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,079
[Laughter]

1098
00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:22,960
but obviously out of a pool that he went

1099
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:24,640
to great lengths to expand and you know

1100
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,160
off the top of my head you know in your

1101
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,599
book at level 11 you've probably got

1102
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:31,359
about 25 spells if not yeah i'm looking

1103
00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:33,839
right now just to have fun i pulled up

1104
00:36:31,359 --> 00:36:35,359
my d debian sheet for my character i'm a

1105
00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:38,320
ninth level wizard

1106
00:36:35,359 --> 00:36:41,839
i have 36 known spells

1107
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,440
four can trips and i can have uh 14

1108
00:36:41,839 --> 00:36:46,000
normal spells prepared

1109
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,320
yeah uh and that's a level nine wizard i

1110
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,560
did i think find a spell book or two in

1111
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,800
there but most of that is just level up

1112
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,560
naturally in a couple here and there

1113
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,240
yeah i don't even i don't i don't use

1114
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,640
half of these no i haven't used half of

1115
00:36:56,240 --> 00:37:00,160
these first level spells like after we

1116
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,240
got through like our first arc and i've

1117
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:05,920
never used this stuff again but it's so

1118
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:08,079
much available yeah for sure for sure so

1119
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,560
he was almost what's the opposite of

1120
00:37:08,079 --> 00:37:13,040
analysis paralysis he was just like a

1121
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:16,240
glutton for like suddenly someone's just

1122
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,320
opened the door and say said gone wire

1123
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:19,839
go wild with these spells he's just

1124
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,880
gonna i want more i want more i want

1125
00:37:19,839 --> 00:37:22,400
more

1126
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,400
but then when we've actually played

1127
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,560
he's like actually i can't you know this

1128
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,800
is never really going to work or this

1129
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,800
one like it sounded good on paper but

1130
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,800
it's actually kind of crap i never use

1131
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,000
it in real life yeah like this one i

1132
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,119
can't ever cast because it's

1133
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,040
concentration then i'm usually

1134
00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:38,880
concentrating on this other one

1135
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,000
so there was a there was a gap there in

1136
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,599
his

1137
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,880
knowledge where perhaps a rules lawyer

1138
00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:46,079
would have been

1139
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,839
useful to him ahead of time yeah i i did

1140
00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:49,680
that whenever i was making it i'd look

1141
00:37:47,839 --> 00:37:50,880
to the guy with all the experience and i

1142
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,480
was like

1143
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,320
you know i'm picking the two spells from

1144
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,640
my level up i'm thinking between these

1145
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,640
four what do you think he was like those

1146
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,000
are some good ones that that fourth one

1147
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,200
probably not going to be used and i'll

1148
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,720
read through it again i'm like man

1149
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,880
you're probably right so that definitely

1150
00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:06,880
saved me from wasted spells so that that

1151
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,160
rules lawyer quote unquote was it was a

1152
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,400
good thing to have

1153
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,640
yeah so i mean we're almost finished

1154
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,640
with that but that was a good learning

1155
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,480
experience for him to be like okay it

1156
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,520
isn't all what it's cracked up to be

1157
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,119
just

1158
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,000
to really you know let those floodgates

1159
00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:21,599
open

1160
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,200
but i think after all of this discussion

1161
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:26,480
what's

1162
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,160
probably the best outcome is that

1163
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,400
rules lawyers should probably

1164
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,640
see themselves more as a mental

1165
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,119
that mentorship role of

1166
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:37,200
i've been here let me help you out and i

1167
00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:39,359
i you know i love it when when i'm in

1168
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,280
the middle of dm'ing and there's

1169
00:38:39,359 --> 00:38:42,720
numbers are flying left right and center

1170
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,480
and there's a million one things going

1171
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:48,320
on and someone just goes oh actually uh

1172
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,800
you've forgotten about this and oh thank

1173
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,480
goodness because

1174
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,920
thank you for that

1175
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,320
you know just just more of that

1176
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,920
mentorship between players i think it's

1177
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,839
probably a more wholesome and positive

1178
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,440
way to approach it yeah and that's why

1179
00:38:59,839 --> 00:39:02,800
it seems to be most of the time so

1180
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,800
that's that's probably the word we

1181
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,440
should use from now on right yeah yeah

1182
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:10,240
okay let's start a campaign to distance

1183
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,359
ourselves from the maligned connotations

1184
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:14,160
of uh

1185
00:39:11,359 --> 00:39:16,480
rules lawyering

1186
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,320
lawyer to rules mentor let's go there we

1187
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,920
go i don't know if there's any other

1188
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,920
types of

1189
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,800
players that you've come across that

1190
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,720
would would fit and you know

1191
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,440
an archetype positive or a negative one

1192
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:31,520
i mean there definitely are

1193
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,240
it's sort of why certain players pick

1194
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,760
certain classes because you'll have your

1195
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:37,839
your lone wolf which you know do a lot

1196
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,680
of rows and stuff where it's like

1197
00:39:37,839 --> 00:39:41,359
hey i've got to steal everything and i'm

1198
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,880
doing this all my own like when the

1199
00:39:41,359 --> 00:39:44,000
party goes to sleep i sneak off and do

1200
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,920
my own thing

1201
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,520
which which is interesting i mean it's

1202
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,640
nice to keep a party together but

1203
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,200
there's definitely

1204
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,280
that certain person who will leave the

1205
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,400
party and do their own thing uh that's

1206
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,400
again that's not always a detriment

1207
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,320
sometimes can be fun where this person

1208
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,320
comes back and like oh we've uh we

1209
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,640
figured out this puzzle uh we know where

1210
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,040
this guy is at that we need to find

1211
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,079
and uh i've also got an extra 500 gold

1212
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,359
it's like

1213
00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:08,880
all right i mean i guess those are

1214
00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:11,040
positive things but it's like we're

1215
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,800
about to go into the meeting with the

1216
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,720
with the king and it's like oh you're

1217
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,560
your guy's not back yet so you're down a

1218
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:18,240
party member it's like oh so that was

1219
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,240
gonna be positive and negative to the i

1220
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:21,760
guess i would call like a lone wolf

1221
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:24,560
again you can't really play d and d with

1222
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,400
one person i've never seen a one one dm1

1223
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,079
player um

1224
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,319
so i guess they have to play with a

1225
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:32,160
group but yeah that there's an archetype

1226
00:40:30,319 --> 00:40:33,680
of people who like i'm gonna do my thing

1227
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,480
because my character would do this it's

1228
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,240
like

1229
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,920
i guess so

1230
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:39,680
my good damn friend of mine jamie who

1231
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,599
was on previous episode that literally

1232
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,440
went out about six hours ago funny

1233
00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:46,000
enough his first experience was a

1234
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,640
one-on-one with myself um

1235
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:51,119
interesting i've never seen it i mean it

1236
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,200
wasn't oh you know a typical

1237
00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:54,960
game i think it goes without saying it

1238
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,400
was

1239
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,000
you know we were we were catching up we

1240
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,599
were having a lot of drinks as well uh

1241
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,599
that helped and i had to do a lot of

1242
00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:02,800
hard work to balance because obviously

1243
00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:05,520
balancing

1244
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,599
a one pc party is you know the framework

1245
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,920
is just in the bin at that point so i

1246
00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:11,920
think his first combat as a level one

1247
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,960
character was with with like the three

1248
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,800
cats

1249
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,800
that literally like cr0 cats

1250
00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:22,319
that's about as fair as it could get so

1251
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:24,400
trying to um you know crowbar that in

1252
00:41:22,319 --> 00:41:26,960
in the narrative of what like why a

1253
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:30,160
three tabby's fighting you was

1254
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:32,880
was was half the fun that's great yeah

1255
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,000
the the lone wolf uh thing i was worried

1256
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,800
when you were starting talking we were

1257
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,319
going to get into like a

1258
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,000
psychoanalytical

1259
00:41:36,319 --> 00:41:39,920
human being

1260
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,839
thought process of

1261
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,400
you know personality types and stuff but

1262
00:41:41,839 --> 00:41:46,640
um yeah so lone wolf is

1263
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,839
is one and uh

1264
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,040
one i don't have a huge amount of

1265
00:41:47,839 --> 00:41:50,160
experience with

1266
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,480
myself

1267
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,160
but i think the more tricky issue you

1268
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,599
touched on was kind of that's what my

1269
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,079
guy would do

1270
00:41:55,599 --> 00:42:00,240
so probably with a worse

1271
00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:02,640
a justifiably worse reputation than a

1272
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:05,200
rules lawyer we've got the myguy

1273
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,800
syndrome as it's known

1274
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,920
i don't know if you've had any

1275
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,280
experiences with that at all yeah for

1276
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,160
sure where it's

1277
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,359
yeah

1278
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,960
like we were talking about earlier with

1279
00:42:13,359 --> 00:42:16,640
like the chaotic person like catching

1280
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,160
the email market on fire or it's like

1281
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,839
yeah nobody would do that he's like well

1282
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,200
maybe my guy would do that so i have to

1283
00:42:19,839 --> 00:42:22,560
play with mikey yeah i know what you're

1284
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,240
talking about it's

1285
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,720
i've been lucky to not experience it too

1286
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:28,960
much but it's like once

1287
00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,560
i i've actually when i was dming i had a

1288
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,800
character do that and it was fine

1289
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,160
because it was like the silly uh moving

1290
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,760
towards the silly campaign thing but it

1291
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,839
was like

1292
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,599
i don't i don't this isn't fun for

1293
00:42:37,839 --> 00:42:41,200
anybody i don't really think this would

1294
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:44,480
make sense but it's like yeah my god i

1295
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,480
would would try to as a barbarian

1296
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,160
rob like a highly secure thing and

1297
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,000
literally just like almost kill all the

1298
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,599
just the town guard they're just doing

1299
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,880
their job he's like yeah but i want that

1300
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:55,359
thing in that building is my character

1301
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:58,160
would just would just take it it's like

1302
00:42:55,359 --> 00:42:59,200
i guess um but again it was it was silly

1303
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,720
so it didn't

1304
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,560
cause too many problems but i could see

1305
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:04,000
in a more serious campaign like

1306
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,079
you can't just do whatever you want to

1307
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,359
do and not expect consequences and they

1308
00:43:06,079 --> 00:43:09,280
don't get mad about the consequences i

1309
00:43:07,359 --> 00:43:11,440
guess when it happens yeah

1310
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,720
yeah but that's this is

1311
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,160
this is where i'm struggling so again so

1312
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,680
i'll start from the top i'm i'm lucky in

1313
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,680
you i've never had like a really

1314
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,960
egregious example of i'm gonna murder

1315
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,160
the rest of the party because that's

1316
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,240
what he would do

1317
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,680
and it's never been that bad about a few

1318
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:26,800
minor instances in the past i was

1319
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,720
playing with my very first kind of

1320
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,480
proper group whereas where is like well

1321
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:32,079
i just want to do this because i'm in a

1322
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,880
strop now okay

1323
00:43:32,079 --> 00:43:37,440
i'll humor you this time but uh

1324
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,200
actions will have consequences yep but

1325
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,319
that example of

1326
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,400
you know we're talking about i should

1327
00:43:40,319 --> 00:43:43,920
enable my anti-hero players to be

1328
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,160
anti-heroes

1329
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,760
but then on the same hand i'm

1330
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,079
trying to

1331
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,599
teach them that actions will have

1332
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:53,680
consequences so

1333
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:54,800
i've got a thought process coming up

1334
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,560
where

1335
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,760
they've just gone through a kobold

1336
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,720
dungeon

1337
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,839
and

1338
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,839
they have been

1339
00:43:59,839 --> 00:44:04,880
particularly

1340
00:44:01,839 --> 00:44:06,480
chaotic shall we say merciless

1341
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,119
they're you know they're not taking

1342
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,800
prisoners some kobolds have died

1343
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:12,720
you know through betrayal you know

1344
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,839
they've said oh we won't kill you

1345
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:15,440
tell us what we need to know and then

1346
00:44:13,839 --> 00:44:17,119
they'll they'll kill him you know

1347
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,760
they've burnt a couple of the bodies

1348
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:22,240
just in case there's any kind of magic

1349
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,760
stuff happening so it's been pretty

1350
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:24,880
brutal

1351
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,160
carnage

1352
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:29,119
i have to say

1353
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:31,440
and i am toying with the idea of there

1354
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:33,760
being some kind of you know

1355
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:36,319
celestial comeuppance

1356
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,160
that they might have to meet you know

1357
00:44:36,319 --> 00:44:39,520
some some some kind of

1358
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,240
payment for their

1359
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,000
almost genocidal crimes

1360
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:46,319
and now i'm like oh maybe i shouldn't do

1361
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,880
that because it's you know i'm back into

1362
00:44:46,319 --> 00:44:51,040
the you're not playing heroes and this

1363
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,119
is me kicking you in the ass i don't

1364
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,319
know there's a so there's like a middle

1365
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:55,359
point to that where it's like you can

1366
00:44:54,319 --> 00:44:57,839
give them

1367
00:44:55,359 --> 00:44:59,440
if it makes sense a consequence right

1368
00:44:57,839 --> 00:45:01,200
but it doesn't have to be like an

1369
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,560
end-all be-all consequence like you

1370
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,400
could say

1371
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,960
one of them survived

1372
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,400
and made it out and then they have a

1373
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,920
small group

1374
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,359
that attacks the party in the night

1375
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,119
whenever they find them you know a month

1376
00:45:11,359 --> 00:45:14,720
later or whatever it's not going to be a

1377
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:16,400
deadly combat no one's going to die but

1378
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:17,359
it's like hey when you do things bad

1379
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,280
things or like you say with the

1380
00:45:17,359 --> 00:45:21,520
celestial thing you could have

1381
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,680
some sort of holy figure be like

1382
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,800
you need to get it together or there's

1383
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,839
going to be a lot bigger problem you

1384
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,440
know however you want to play you know

1385
00:45:25,839 --> 00:45:29,440
it depends on your world and in the way

1386
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,079
that your characters act but like

1387
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,359
they can do bad things and then there

1388
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:34,880
could be consequences that aren't

1389
00:45:33,359 --> 00:45:36,640
necessarily tpk that doesn't have to be

1390
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,319
the only consequence yeah it can

1391
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,359
straight up be like people at town heard

1392
00:45:38,319 --> 00:45:40,720
about horrible things you do no one

1393
00:45:39,359 --> 00:45:42,000
wants to deal with you in this town so

1394
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:43,920
like you got to just

1395
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,000
move on because no one likes you anymore

1396
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,119
because you're awful people like that's

1397
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,640
again that's

1398
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:50,640
that's not the end of the campaign no

1399
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,960
one's gonna die but it's like that

1400
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,960
really inconveniences people so maybe

1401
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,800
you know you can still

1402
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,280
be who you want to be you can be any

1403
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,040
hero but just like i don't know don't be

1404
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,440
crazy or you know do it quietly that's

1405
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,440
me yes

1406
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,520
that's a life lesson right there

1407
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:10,079
yeah

1408
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,760
you can be bad if no one catches you

1409
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:12,960
oh god i don't know what we're promoting

1410
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,720
now we've

1411
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:18,079
we've gone into some some dark corner of

1412
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:18,079
this podcast you're a word snap

1413
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,839
okay that is reassuring because

1414
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,760
you know i think that would be something

1415
00:46:21,839 --> 00:46:25,440
good and they've had something similar

1416
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,440
in the past where you know

1417
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,280
a former ally has tried to distance

1418
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,800
themselves from the from the players

1419
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,079
because they've said

1420
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,319
you know i don't want to associate with

1421
00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:35,040
you guys anymore because of your antics

1422
00:46:34,319 --> 00:46:36,160
so

1423
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,200
soz

1424
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,880
but

1425
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,599
you're on your own now and that they've

1426
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,520
had to turn to more nefarious allies in

1427
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:46,960
jew kind which is actually now i think

1428
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:48,720
about it a kind of cool feedback loop of

1429
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,480
we did bad things we have to talk to bad

1430
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:52,079
people which are going to encourage us

1431
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,920
to do more bad things which is going to

1432
00:46:52,079 --> 00:46:55,119
encourage us to talk to more bad people

1433
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,800
so

1434
00:46:55,119 --> 00:47:00,160
i guess we're still talking about my guy

1435
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,839
syndrome just in in a way of you know

1436
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,640
yeah ensure that their actions have

1437
00:47:01,839 --> 00:47:07,599
consequences and try and leverage that

1438
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,119
into a positive way now

1439
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:11,280
you know obviously there's a limit and

1440
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:14,960
there's extremes and if if one player is

1441
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:16,880
just being a knob and is actively

1442
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,880
diminishing the fun

1443
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,319
then get rid of them

1444
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,680
yeah

1445
00:47:20,319 --> 00:47:23,280
but if it's if it's you know light

1446
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,040
touches here and there then yeah lean

1447
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,880
into it make sure actions have

1448
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,640
consequences and

1449
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,359
you'll come out the other side with a

1450
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:33,280
hopefully a more interesting game

1451
00:47:31,359 --> 00:47:35,200
yeah i think the people who do the my

1452
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,119
guy and stick to it don't probably last

1453
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,280
in a group very long it's a thing where

1454
00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,319
it's like hey maybe you do what my guy

1455
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,839
wants

1456
00:47:40,319 --> 00:47:43,520
you grow from it or you move past it or

1457
00:47:41,839 --> 00:47:46,160
there's small consequences but like i

1458
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:48,480
don't i don't see a group where the my

1459
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,760
guy is there for like five sessions

1460
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,520
straight

1461
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,119
as a player or as a d might be like all

1462
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,800
right i mean we gotta figure out a new

1463
00:47:53,119 --> 00:47:57,200
character or something because this is

1464
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,800
no one's having fun with this yeah

1465
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,599
okay so

1466
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,760
to

1467
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:07,520
get onto the a juicy topic then of

1468
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:09,280
the archetypal enemies so we've talked

1469
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,520
outside of the table we've talked you

1470
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:14,000
know players and dms as human beings

1471
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,160
we've talked in the game as player

1472
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,720
characters and so the other side of that

1473
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,960
coin to bring it to a close is

1474
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:22,559
the non-player characters and what best

1475
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,960
to talk about than

1476
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:26,400
the big bad evil guys the villains the

1477
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:29,359
enemies so

1478
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,200
what kind of villain archetypes are

1479
00:48:29,359 --> 00:48:33,200
there what kind of

1480
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,599
tropes and

1481
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,280
positions do they fill within a campaign

1482
00:48:35,599 --> 00:48:38,880
there's two that you always get and

1483
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,920
actually i think i'll try to remind

1484
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,000
myself that there's actually an

1485
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,760
interesting one that i don't see very

1486
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,359
often i think really cool but of course

1487
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,680
you've got at the beginning it's like

1488
00:48:45,359 --> 00:48:49,680
small time crime boss it's just like

1489
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,000
your first obstacle at level one it's

1490
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,680
like uh i'm running i'm running a fence

1491
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,920
in the smallest town you're in at the

1492
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,359
beginning and it's i was like that first

1493
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,160
human character that you have to

1494
00:48:57,359 --> 00:49:01,440
overcome is like he's a small time dude

1495
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,200
and it's like oh big thing because

1496
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,119
you're level one or level two

1497
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,400
and then it immediately ratchets up to

1498
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:08,480
uh you know

1499
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:11,599
i'm a guy who's literally gonna destroy

1500
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,800
the planet if you don't stop me it's

1501
00:49:11,599 --> 00:49:14,960
that those are the two you're gonna

1502
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,200
always see in like a big broad campaign

1503
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,839
little guy just you know making his

1504
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,520
living illegally and then

1505
00:49:19,839 --> 00:49:23,040
you know a guy who's going to cut the

1506
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,119
world in half with a sword if you let

1507
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,119
him

1508
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:30,480
yeah it's funny when you when you lay

1509
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,640
out like bookends like that it is

1510
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,040
it doesn't make me smile the breadth of

1511
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,440
the game and how much you can have

1512
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,359
player character growth between levels 1

1513
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,880
to 20. i don't like to think about it

1514
00:49:39,359 --> 00:49:43,280
too much because it kind of smashes the

1515
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:46,079
fourth wall for me a little bit yeah but

1516
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,160
um yeah i've gone with

1517
00:49:46,079 --> 00:49:52,000
uh there is obviously a big a big bad

1518
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:53,599
evil guy in my campaign who is a a lich

1519
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:56,240
who has got some

1520
00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:58,480
nefarious plans now

1521
00:49:56,240 --> 00:50:02,319
this is a slight spoiler warning should

1522
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,920
any of my players listen but his end

1523
00:50:02,319 --> 00:50:05,520
goal

1524
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,359
it's a classic

1525
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,720
well from my point of view the jedi or

1526
00:50:07,359 --> 00:50:09,920
evil

1527
00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:11,599
uh

1528
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,880
style was episode three so from his

1529
00:50:11,599 --> 00:50:15,520
point of view

1530
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,520
it's legit right his thing is what he's

1531
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,839
trying to do is

1532
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:22,640
is right it's just is

1533
00:50:19,839 --> 00:50:25,440
this is gonna make sense and the outcome

1534
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,440
will be for the benefit of everybody in

1535
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,520
my world view

1536
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,920
so i was trying to think earlier on like

1537
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:34,240
we have anti-heroes are there also

1538
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,880
anti-villains is that a thing i feel

1539
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:39,760
like it must be a thing oh absolutely so

1540
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,440
again our dm says that um he's like i

1541
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,280
don't always succeed at this but i want

1542
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,280
my bad guys to be the the good guys of

1543
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,280
their own story right which is a great

1544
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:50,000
way to write those people so yeah like a

1545
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:52,880
perfect example that i think is

1546
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,400
in black panther killmonger

1547
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,680
i mean he's the bad guy of the story but

1548
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,760
he's really like

1549
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,920
he's entitled to the throne

1550
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:03,359
uh because he is of that bloodline

1551
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:05,280
uh he was left he was left in poverty

1552
00:51:03,359 --> 00:51:07,599
and abandoned by his own family after

1553
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,280
his family killed his father so him

1554
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:10,400
wanting to come back and take his place

1555
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:14,000
on the throne

1556
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:16,400
isn't really wrong like he's entitled to

1557
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,240
it and he was wronged by his own family

1558
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,359
so again if you take

1559
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:21,040
the movie i mean that movie's really

1560
00:51:19,359 --> 00:51:23,040
basically about killmonger more than it

1561
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,040
even is about t'challa and it's like

1562
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,800
yeah like i you know again because it's

1563
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,000
a movie he's a bad guy he's like oh i'm

1564
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,400
gonna send guns out and kill people

1565
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:32,240
whatever fine but his personal story is

1566
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,400
like i'm just trying to get home where i

1567
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:37,760
deserve to be and it was taken from me

1568
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,440
as a child so it's like is he

1569
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,440
is he wrong for thinking that i wouldn't

1570
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,280
think so like he was wronged by

1571
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,920
everybody and all he wanted to do was go

1572
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:47,920
home hmm yeah that is really good

1573
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,839
example of

1574
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,960
that and i love the line you you quoted

1575
00:51:49,839 --> 00:51:53,119
there of

1576
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,280
a good villain should be the hero of

1577
00:51:53,119 --> 00:51:56,720
their own story which obviously gives

1578
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,839
you a lot of leeway there and here's the

1579
00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:59,839
summary oh the website

1580
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:05,839
is the antagonist of your story whose

1581
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:07,359
motivations and actions wow okay cool

1582
00:52:05,839 --> 00:52:09,680
i mean i don't have to record anymore

1583
00:52:07,359 --> 00:52:09,680
because uh

1584
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,640
even before okay google

1585
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,640
stop

1586
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,559
i was like hey let me tell you how this

1587
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:21,520
works yes guys let's get her to record

1588
00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:22,520
all the podcasts from that one

1589
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,160
that's great

1590
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,599
[Laughter]

1591
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,680
oh god i think that's the train of

1592
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:29,760
thought i was just saying um

1593
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,200
there's a lot of leeway for having

1594
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,880
villains feel like the hero of their own

1595
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,160
story because obviously their world view

1596
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,960
can be

1597
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,079
uh delightfully twisted

1598
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,240
to fit

1599
00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:42,480
the narrative that you want and well

1600
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:43,680
there's a there's a type of

1601
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,040
npc

1602
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,440
i want to bring in

1603
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,880
who is kind of like the enemy of the

1604
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,200
enemy is my friend

1605
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:53,200
kind of thing so i want there to be this

1606
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,640
rival

1607
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,079
person this kind of slightly

1608
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,599
antagonistic

1609
00:52:56,079 --> 00:53:01,280
npc

1610
00:52:57,599 --> 00:53:03,760
but they kind of get on with i just

1611
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,520
haven't thought of it yet

1612
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,200
yeah well the one i was thinking of you

1613
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,880
know before i you know i answer the

1614
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,880
question is i've always wanted to see

1615
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,480
and rdm's talked about maybe doing it

1616
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,160
but he's like you wouldn't be the only

1617
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,520
adventuring party in the world it's like

1618
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,200
of course we would why would we be the

1619
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,440
only you know five six seven whatever

1620
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,280
people doing what we're doing so i would

1621
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:24,640
love the idea of maybe not the the big

1622
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,559
bad and evil guy but another or another

1623
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,640
venturing party who is you know they're

1624
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:30,240
out there they're your adversaries and

1625
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,400
you're like you know like you show up to

1626
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:34,400
the to it you know clean out the goblin

1627
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,680
camp or you got to get this artifact so

1628
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,720
you can kill you know the guy who's

1629
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,319
going to cut the world in half with the

1630
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:39,520
sword and it's like they're already

1631
00:53:38,319 --> 00:53:40,960
there and they've already done it and

1632
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,800
you're like you're going to be

1633
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,079
confrontational but they're like yo like

1634
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,920
we're just

1635
00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:47,839
we're just doing

1636
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,280
the thing to stop this guy right but to

1637
00:53:47,839 --> 00:53:51,440
you they'd be happy and then of course

1638
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,760
my idea is that it's it's a mirror

1639
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,839
version of you so it's like

1640
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,720
because i play uh a gift uh gif yankee

1641
00:53:55,839 --> 00:53:58,559
wizard

1642
00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:00,880
because i like playing weird races so

1643
00:53:58,559 --> 00:54:02,720
i'd love if there was uh the gitzerai

1644
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,160
wizard on the other side it's like i

1645
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:06,800
would i would love just the idea of

1646
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:09,520
bizarro mirror us yeah

1647
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:12,400
just like being our adversaries

1648
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:14,000
so great minds again so i've done

1649
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,240
something very similar

1650
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,880
in my campaign and they were literally

1651
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:21,280
passed on ships going in opposite

1652
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,800
directions on the river and so my

1653
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,640
players made up of a bunch of classes

1654
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,079
and a bunch of races obviously my my

1655
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,160
party are

1656
00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:30,240
what i'd done is i'd basically shuffled

1657
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:32,800
them around

1658
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:35,760
so instead of having a total sorcerer it

1659
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,520
was a total druid

1660
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,680
and instead of having this down the

1661
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:41,839
other it i just rotated them all kind of

1662
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,040
shifted them down one apart from one

1663
00:54:41,839 --> 00:54:45,280
combination

1664
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,599
the human warlock for reasons that will

1665
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,040
become apparent later in the campaign

1666
00:54:47,599 --> 00:54:51,760
as a kind of uh

1667
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:53,040
linchpin divining rod to the group but

1668
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,160
yeah they literally passed each other on

1669
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,680
ships

1670
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,040
and we're kind of looking over the

1671
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:58,240
banisters

1672
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,200
and we're like hang on a minute that

1673
00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:02,319
looks a bit weird and obviously it was

1674
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,520
also

1675
00:55:02,319 --> 00:55:05,119
interesting because they

1676
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,480
the party that they were passing was

1677
00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:08,400
traveling

1678
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,920
towards where they'd just done their

1679
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,839
quest

1680
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,280
so it was like why are they going there

1681
00:55:11,839 --> 00:55:14,720
hang on that's an adventuring party

1682
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,079
going to we've just come and got

1683
00:55:14,720 --> 00:55:18,319
treasure and

1684
00:55:16,079 --> 00:55:21,440
killed a boss and stuff so

1685
00:55:18,319 --> 00:55:24,079
yes i would absolutely try and squeeze

1686
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,599
that in because my players were on that

1687
00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:26,799
on it like sonic

1688
00:55:25,599 --> 00:55:29,040
they were

1689
00:55:26,799 --> 00:55:31,119
so fun and people don't do it enough but

1690
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,799
it's just i love that like

1691
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:34,720
i don't know how much you like bad

1692
00:55:32,799 --> 00:55:37,200
movies but i think it's fast and furious

1693
00:55:34,720 --> 00:55:39,599
seven or six yeah where they they make a

1694
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:42,079
joke like the other squad that's doing

1695
00:55:39,599 --> 00:55:44,559
the crimes is literally just

1696
00:55:42,079 --> 00:55:46,559
that they're crew but reversed and they

1697
00:55:44,559 --> 00:55:49,200
make a joke i just love it's like oh

1698
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:51,520
i've got to fight me but you know he

1699
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:54,319
wears white instead of red yeah

1700
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:57,040
oh yeah yeah i even made

1701
00:55:54,319 --> 00:55:58,640
the names anagrams of the names of the

1702
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,960
players which is probably the most

1703
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:03,520
difficult part because

1704
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,720
fantasy names don't often work

1705
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,880
yeah stuff

1706
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:08,880
if you start moving those letters around

1707
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,599
they're already kind of you know iffy

1708
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,880
names in some cases so uh so yeah that

1709
00:56:11,599 --> 00:56:13,680
is a very good

1710
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,359
because you're just playing with the

1711
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:17,520
archetype of the like

1712
00:56:15,359 --> 00:56:19,920
the player party you're using as an

1713
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:22,079
archetype and you're building from that

1714
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,599
so yeah i would recommend and now i

1715
00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:25,040
wanna know how excited i'm getting

1716
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:27,440
thinking about it i'm gonna have to try

1717
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:30,000
and uh make that a bigger part i think

1718
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,319
when we go back it's so fun another

1719
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:34,079
archetype i like um this is sort of the

1720
00:56:32,319 --> 00:56:37,839
way a games run but it has to do with

1721
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:40,000
with the villain or you know the npc is

1722
00:56:37,839 --> 00:56:41,359
there's an idea of running a campaign so

1723
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,359
you know

1724
00:56:41,359 --> 00:56:45,119
a lot of campaigns where you know you'll

1725
00:56:43,359 --> 00:56:46,559
go on a mission you know a couple

1726
00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:48,079
sessions you'll be doing a thing and you

1727
00:56:46,559 --> 00:56:49,200
take you know the dm's like all right

1728
00:56:48,079 --> 00:56:50,240
what's a cool thing in the monster

1729
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,319
manual

1730
00:56:50,240 --> 00:56:53,920
that's a you know a cr of the of the

1731
00:56:52,319 --> 00:56:56,400
group and we'll fight that

1732
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,480
uh there's another idea for a campaign

1733
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,920
um might be like in shorter arcs but

1734
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,000
sort of a

1735
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:03,920
you look at a cool monster

1736
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,720
in the book right so say it's like a

1737
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:08,720
cr-12 or a 13 or whatever it is right

1738
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:10,079
and that is your campaign is that this

1739
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:12,400
monster that would normally be at the

1740
00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:14,079
end of you know an adventure

1741
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,599
you know like short term

1742
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:17,520
uh you you kill it it's like all right

1743
00:57:15,599 --> 00:57:19,200
well we're going on this quest and oh

1744
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,280
it's a it's a it's a jibbering mouther

1745
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,640
or whatever they're called and that's we

1746
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,799
fight that that's the big fight and then

1747
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:27,040
we move on but the idea is like you know

1748
00:57:24,799 --> 00:57:29,200
uh we're gonna take like an aboleth

1749
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:31,040
which is pretty strong it's not you know

1750
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,119
taraska level strong but it's pretty

1751
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:35,119
strong and that is the bad guy for the

1752
00:57:33,119 --> 00:57:36,960
entire thing it's like this is the this

1753
00:57:35,119 --> 00:57:39,040
is the thing we're fighting against

1754
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,960
so there's not necessarily progressions

1755
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,920
of crime boss

1756
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,000
to

1757
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:46,640
the guide trying to kill the king to the

1758
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,079
god try and destroy the world it is

1759
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,359
here is this thing that's pretty

1760
00:57:48,079 --> 00:57:51,920
powerful

1761
00:57:49,359 --> 00:57:53,359
and this is the goal of this campaign

1762
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,799
those campaigns normally shorter but

1763
00:57:53,359 --> 00:57:57,280
it's also an interesting idea of just

1764
00:57:54,799 --> 00:57:59,440
like here's a thing and we're going to

1765
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,280
base everything off of this because like

1766
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,880
you look at specifically like an ability

1767
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,319
or you can do with like a hag where it's

1768
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,079
like the powers they can do it's like

1769
00:58:04,319 --> 00:58:07,440
control people do that like you can make

1770
00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:10,160
an entire like you go to three or four

1771
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,119
towns before you yeah end up finishing

1772
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,480
this thing off because like they can

1773
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:13,839
control people's minds so it's like you

1774
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,280
go to the first village and this one

1775
00:58:13,839 --> 00:58:17,280
dude's acting weird and we have to fight

1776
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,960
that we're low level higher level you

1777
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,880
know some of its minions have invaded

1778
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,799
this other town and like the last town

1779
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,400
everyone's mind controlled

1780
00:58:22,799 --> 00:58:26,559
and you've got to kill that with to free

1781
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,960
the town and like that could be you know

1782
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:30,960
six seven sessions and there's your you

1783
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,240
know quote unquote campaign i like that

1784
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,480
idea for

1785
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:37,040
a bad guy archetype or it's just here's

1786
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:38,400
one thing that's pretty cool and

1787
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,480
that's what it is i guess it's sort of

1788
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,520
like the idea of strawd except for when

1789
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:42,880
you play that there's a lot more things

1790
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,240
you have to fight but the idea of like

1791
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,640
here's the thing

1792
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:49,520
that's not impossible to kill but this

1793
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:52,559
is the main adversary for our adventure

1794
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,760
yeah there's quite an elegant purity to

1795
00:58:52,559 --> 00:58:56,400
that because almost you don't even need

1796
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,000
to level up during that if it's gauged

1797
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,920
correctly or maybe once or twice just to

1798
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,440
make it fair but

1799
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:03,520
yeah there's quite a nice like

1800
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:05,119
self-containment to it yeah you could

1801
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,000
start at level five and into level nine

1802
00:59:05,119 --> 00:59:08,160
because

1803
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,599
you guys have already been adventuring

1804
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,960
you're of course you know you're not a

1805
00:59:09,599 --> 00:59:13,280
level one character wouldn't go on to

1806
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,640
find a cr15 monster like that would not

1807
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,400
be where they start but let's say you've

1808
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,480
already been adventuring for a year you

1809
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,760
go from five to eight you fight this

1810
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,280
monster

1811
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,319
here's our there's our little mini arc

1812
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,040
we had

1813
00:59:22,319 --> 00:59:28,000
am i yeah as i said my feeling is

1814
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:30,480
delightfully obtuse to my players so far

1815
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,960
in the campaign you know big spouting

1816
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,480
monologues a couple times of this that

1817
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:37,040
and the other like you guys are fun

1818
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,799
though those are fun they're real fun i

1819
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,640
am looking forward

1820
00:59:38,799 --> 00:59:43,359
i'm a dingus because i spent way too

1821
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:46,079
long writing his final

1822
00:59:43,359 --> 00:59:47,119
monologue which the players won't get to

1823
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:48,960
probably like

1824
00:59:47,119 --> 00:59:50,400
two years and

1825
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,520
they might half of them might be dead

1826
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,359
and

1827
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:55,839
i've kind of framed it around the

1828
00:59:53,359 --> 00:59:58,640
current set of players and stuff so uh

1829
00:59:55,839 --> 01:00:01,359
yeah i am very much like i also got

1830
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,559
in place you know traps for silence and

1831
01:00:01,359 --> 01:00:04,319
so they can't

1832
01:00:02,559 --> 01:00:06,319
they can't interrupt him

1833
01:00:04,319 --> 01:00:08,640
yeah it's like hey be quiet i get a

1834
01:00:06,319 --> 01:00:10,640
thing to say yeah come on you and me

1835
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:14,000
i've humored you guys for like so long

1836
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:16,480
you gotta give me this

1837
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,079
yeah i'm i'm looking forward to that big

1838
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,920
like

1839
01:00:18,079 --> 01:00:20,720
holier than thou

1840
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,119
well

1841
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:25,119
you guys have a closed mind views uh you

1842
01:00:23,119 --> 01:00:26,400
know world view here's the reasons why

1843
01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:27,359
my thing is

1844
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,280
good

1845
01:00:27,359 --> 01:00:31,280
and actually i'm the good guy and you're

1846
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,880
the bad guys and that even leaves space

1847
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,640
for it probably won't happen because you

1848
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:36,319
know it's not necessarily how adventure

1849
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,000
party works but someone be like he's

1850
01:00:36,319 --> 01:00:40,240
right you know like what are we doing

1851
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:44,240
here that's that's what i want if that

1852
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:46,480
happens i will be like so ext like

1853
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:48,319
mission complete

1854
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:50,079
yeah that's great i i've already told my

1855
01:00:48,319 --> 01:00:51,599
dm i have a plan you know when we get

1856
01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:53,440
closer into this campaign

1857
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:54,880
my characters has a you know part of his

1858
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,079
backstory or secret or whatever he has a

1859
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,079
thing that he wants to do and it's going

1860
01:00:56,079 --> 01:00:59,680
to happen regardless

1861
01:00:58,079 --> 01:01:01,680
of what everyone else wants to do and

1862
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,680
it's not a it's not a you know going

1863
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:05,119
into business for myself like a my

1864
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,040
character kind of a thing it's like i'm

1865
01:01:05,119 --> 01:01:08,319
letting you know now and i'm doing

1866
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,000
things throughout the campaign that will

1867
01:01:08,319 --> 01:01:11,760
lead to that and i'll kind of let some

1868
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,960
people in on it but like when it gets

1869
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,640
this part it's like are you gonna do

1870
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:17,040
this or do that like he's gonna do that

1871
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:18,640
like this is what it's not a secret this

1872
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:20,880
is what he's going to do

1873
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,720
so i love the idea of the bad guys like

1874
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,240
this is what i'm going to do

1875
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,240
hopefully you guys pay attention but

1876
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,160
like i've got this thing and then i

1877
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,079
again if if a character has a second

1878
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,440
thought about it i would that's the best

1879
01:01:30,079 --> 01:01:34,000
part like

1880
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:36,720
that oh my character i wrote actually

1881
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,240
did the thing that i wanted him to do

1882
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,160
yeah i'm really really looking forward

1883
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:42,000
to that to that moment

1884
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:43,680
have you had any other any other

1885
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:46,240
thoughts or anything else that we might

1886
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,680
have missed on today's topic

1887
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,680
no nothing i can think of yeah i mean

1888
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,359
archetypes are you know it's a good and

1889
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,559
bad thing i think it's mostly good again

1890
01:01:51,359 --> 01:01:54,799
normally

1891
01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:57,359
there are archetypes because they work

1892
01:01:54,799 --> 01:01:58,880
um there's could be good bad but

1893
01:01:57,359 --> 01:02:00,400
i think there's more good there than bad

1894
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,240
and then playing against an archetype is

1895
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:04,000
extremely fun that's all i'll say try

1896
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:06,720
thinking of something that

1897
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,079
you normally you know uh jack sparrow

1898
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,920
swashbuckling

1899
01:02:08,079 --> 01:02:12,960
rogue and just give yourself like a

1900
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:15,200
seven decks and just have fun being a

1901
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,119
bumbling idiot who's just extremely

1902
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,480
lucky like jack sparrow except for you

1903
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:19,839
don't actually maybe things don't

1904
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,760
actually work out for you all the time

1905
01:02:19,839 --> 01:02:23,359
like they do like that's a fun time but

1906
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,960
yeah they're fun to play around with

1907
01:02:23,359 --> 01:02:26,640
they're fun to change up

1908
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,640
i think they're there for for a reason

1909
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,920
and yeah it's always a good time to to

1910
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,000
mess around with them

1911
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:35,280
yeah i think i think we said that like

1912
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:37,839
use them as a tool in your utility belt

1913
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:39,760
that players have to help guide or to

1914
01:02:37,839 --> 01:02:41,119
help make something but then yeah don't

1915
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:43,680
be afraid to

1916
01:02:41,119 --> 01:02:45,440
twist them up and build on top of them

1917
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:48,160
to make things

1918
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:50,079
your own and i think there is you know

1919
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:52,319
just to look back a little bit there is

1920
01:02:50,079 --> 01:02:53,680
a place still for

1921
01:02:52,319 --> 01:02:55,839
you know it's always a world and good to

1922
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:57,920
have academic like i want my villain to

1923
01:02:55,839 --> 01:02:58,960
be the good guy and and

1924
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,559
this that the other but i still think

1925
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:04,960
there's a really

1926
01:03:00,559 --> 01:03:06,240
a genuine place for just like bad dudes

1927
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,720
oh yeah i could just shouldn't be oh no

1928
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,880
i'm just evil like yeah i want to kill i

1929
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:11,920
just want to kill you like i'm a god and

1930
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,000
i feel like this world should be

1931
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,520
destroyed like deal with it i don't have

1932
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,440
to explain anything to you oh my god i

1933
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:20,799
don't care yeah yeah there's a place for

1934
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:21,839
that the indifference of gods yeah yeah

1935
01:03:20,799 --> 01:03:24,720
for sure

1936
01:03:21,839 --> 01:03:27,599
cool all right well uh that that that

1937
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,480
pretty much brings us to the end and we

1938
01:03:27,599 --> 01:03:30,720
we've

1939
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:32,000
covered a whole bunch of stuff there and

1940
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,160
i'm really happy with uh obviously

1941
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,559
google's input thanks

1942
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,559
all right a surprise guest

1943
01:03:36,559 --> 01:03:41,599
halfway through um

1944
01:03:38,559 --> 01:03:44,160
thank you for for coming on is there

1945
01:03:41,599 --> 01:03:45,520
anything you like to plug well i just

1946
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,520
want to thank you for having me on this

1947
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,039
is a topic i like a lot and i appreciate

1948
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,559
you giving me a chance to talk about it

1949
01:03:49,039 --> 01:03:53,039
no worries yeah just follow me on

1950
01:03:50,559 --> 01:03:55,039
twitter adamgumby that's where i'll

1951
01:03:53,039 --> 01:03:58,160
you know retweet stuff from

1952
01:03:55,039 --> 01:04:00,319
my d d podcast i'll misfit roles anytime

1953
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,079
i do you know talk about video games or

1954
01:04:00,319 --> 01:04:04,319
anytime i'm doing anything

1955
01:04:02,079 --> 01:04:06,240
at adam gumby on twitter is the quickest

1956
01:04:04,319 --> 01:04:08,160
and easiest place so check it out check

1957
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,520
out the stuff i'm making at it and hope

1958
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,760
you guys enjoy

1959
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:14,960
excellent cool thanks again for coming

1960
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:17,359
on and thank you all for listening at

1961
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,799
home you can find me on my socials and

1962
01:04:17,359 --> 01:04:20,400
i'd love to hear from you guys and any

1963
01:04:18,799 --> 01:04:22,640
experiences you've had with those

1964
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:26,740
classic archetypes otherwise thank you

1965
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:32,030
all for listening and good night

1966
01:04:26,740 --> 01:04:32,030
[Music]