More Community

00:03.40
Danilo Vujevic
And today I'm joined by Shelley Mazanobel and Greg Tito the co-hosts of the dragon talk podcast. Thank you ever so much for joining us today guys. Can you tell us a little bit about yourselves.

00:13.68
Shelly Mazzanoble
Hi. Thank you so much for having us today I am Shelly Mas Noble I am the senior brand manager for dungeons and dragons that is my day job but also as mentioned co-host of the official d and d podcast dragon talk and now. Co-author of a book about a podcast called dragon talk ah co-auth co-authored ah with the lovely Greg Tito book called welcome to dragon talk inspiring conversations about dungeons and dragons and the people who love to play it and now I turn it over to you.

00:50.85
Greg Tito
Ah.

00:52.45
Shelly Mazzanoble
My co-host my co-author and friend Greg Tito ah

00:56.50
Greg Tito
Hello use that I was lovely now I'm like I'm so ah, you know, honored to be on here and talk to you Daniel yeah love so yeah I am Greg Tito I am the senior communications manager for dungeons and dragons. But.

01:01.64
Shelly Mazzanoble
A.

01:12.43
Greg Tito
As part of that it is getting the word out making everybody know about what is going on in the dungeons and dragons community through dragon talk and Shelly and I have been excited to go back into our our many many episodes our 300 plus interviews that we've done. Members of the community and ah reflect that back in in book form. So this is really exciting and and and really great to be able to um, talk to ah folks on on podcasts about a podcast about a game and the book that we wrote about those things.

01:43.69
Danilo Vujevic
Of course you know what you need to do next. You need to do a podcast about the book creation process right? We need you just need to keep keep yes.

01:46.58
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, yes, we need to do a Tv show about the book about the podcast about the game i.

01:49.65
Greg Tito
Um, yeah, oh my God That's a great idea.

01:56.90
Greg Tito
Um, we would love to have a writer's room that'd be great. Let's do it.

02:01.53
Danilo Vujevic
Awesome! Well thank you ever so much again for joining us today. Ah well talking to 300 episodes today's topic is community. So what does that mean to you in the d and d and wider ttrpg framework I'll open the floor to you guys.

02:16.15
Greg Tito
Well I think we were looking for a through line for how we were going to approach talking about dragon and talk right because we were like oh let's talk about the podcast. All these amazing guests that we've had and the thing that kind of coalesce I don't think this was necessarily a. Big part of our book proposal Shelley but it was something that kind of we thought of over time that was like this is not obviously it's about the podcast. It's about the game and the history of it but to me it became a history of the dungeons. The dragons community and the people around this game and how it is progressed and changed over the you know. Forty plus years that it has been around and to me that means anybody who is ah you know the the d and d community means anybody who has interacted with the game and played it. You know so either just around their table and you know, um, shared it with. Their their own community whether it's their their family their church their community center their school or just their friend group and then ah beyond that the larger d and d community of those smaller subcommunities communicating with each other and that only really occurred back in the early days ah face to face at conventions or. Through male correspondence or on magazines but like what's interesting is tracing that history throughout those those decades to how the internet has changed how communities gather and get together and share what they do um and the creativity.

03:43.22
Greg Tito
That comes not just from being inspired by dungeons and dragons because there is tons of ah images and storytelling and things within the pages of d and d books that inspire people. But how the community inspires each other and how they see the maps the cosplay. The. The live shows the podcasts that people are creating around dungeons of dragons and those reflections start creating. Um you know communication with each of those places and then that's to me is the definition of a community is like it's almost like ah ah if you had ah a beam of light that was bouncing around a mirrored.

04:15.63
Danilo Vujevic
E.

04:19.80
Greg Tito
Ah, circular room. It would just keep bouncing around and creating more beautiful Kaleidoscopes of ah of of a light show I don't know I kind of lost it in that metaphor there but you know what I'm trying to say.

04:20.20
Shelly Mazzanoble
Will.

04:28.19
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, it's beautiful. Um.

04:29.13
Danilo Vujevic
On and I see it I see it absolutely and what about yourself. Shelley.

04:35.60
Shelly Mazzanoble
So what I what community and the world of D and D to me is something that really stood out early on when I started to be to become more involved in it was This is a very supportive group of people now I come from.

04:51.45
Greg Tito
M.

04:54.86
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, the world of college theater and it's I'm I Always like to make this comparison that was like cutthroat there were only we did not want more ah creators coming into that space. We didn't want more competition. You didn't.

04:55.78
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah.

05:11.92
Shelly Mazzanoble
You should be collaborating but you didn't want to collaborate because you didn't want you know somebody to be better like whatever I this is partially why I did not end up pursuing theater after college but the d and d world also comprised of a lot of theater majors I shall say. However, there are. Lots of cos players. Lots of streamers. Lots of podcasters. Lots of game designers. Lots of people doing a lot of the same work in the same space and yet I found it so incredible to see how these people were lifting each other up were in like commenting on like. Oh my gosh your cosplay amazing I would you know and sharing other people's work from the same space that you're also working in and I think that part of that is because when you play d and d you just become very used to being part of a team. Of recognizing that you're all just better together and that there's room for everybody here like we want people in your party that can can help lift you up and support you and play a specific role like you you want the best of the best in there and to see how people who didn't know each other. Were suddenly like inviting each other to be part of their streams and all like I would see like oh my gosh I didn't realize these people actually knew each other like several past drag and talk guests like now look at them now they're playing a stream. Oh my gosh they've invited this person to be a guest. These 2 are doing this amazing cosplay together or like.

06:45.33
Shelly Mazzanoble
These 2 creators are now working on d and d adventure content together. It's truly amazing to see how this community really feels inspired by the work that each other is doing and how they find ways to continue to partner with each other or elevate each other's voices and to me I find that to be. Really really inspiring and just one of the best parts about being in this community. It's a true community. It really is.

07:11.49
Danilo Vujevic
Absolutely thank. Well thank you very much for those I I couldn't agree more and it's made me kind of self reflect on the last several years of my life but pushing a decade at this point of of since joining the d and d community and it it started from me. Shouting up the stairs to my house mate saying do you want to do this dungeons and dragons thing maybe at some point and him poke poking his head around the banisters and being like hell yeah and then now here we find ourselves oh that was literally yeah that that was literally it that was that was the seed.

07:41.20
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, ah, no.

07:41.96
Greg Tito
Ah, it's like that gif of the guy who's eating noodles and he's like where I got you it I Love it.

07:48.33
Shelly Mazzanoble
I.

07:50.77
Danilo Vujevic
And then here we are have many years later um and from from joining games and being bought into games and with with a bunch of strangers. Um, and ah ah I got that same guy. He invited me to a game with him and his colleagues and I was okay, yeah fine I'll take it great in person. Love it. Absolutely I'm um, I'm flat and I turned up to this guy's house hoping that my friend would be there as a social lubricant and he he didn't so I was just like ding donng. Ah oh it's just the 2 of us I'm here at your house random stranger to play d and d ah, but luckily we still play with that that group you know, 2 3 years later and that's.

08:16.30
Greg Tito
M.

08:16.96
Shelly Mazzanoble
The.

08:29.70
Danilo Vujevic
1 ah, you know 1 example of that kind of the the community that it fosters and now those guys are like my super super close friends. So I'm I'm very happy with that and ah.

08:37.15
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah.

08:39.95
Greg Tito
Yeah, that's what we found is that people ah who play this game together form a bond that is not typical in everything else right? like because if you go and like do a pickup game of basketball. You're not going to be like oh yeah, buddy remember that time you made that shot.

08:45.60
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

08:53.79
Danilo Vujevic
So.

08:55.86
Greg Tito
Yeah, you know three years ago in that pickup game. Yeah, right? like no one does that but in d and d you can probably not even see that same group again and be like oh remember when we killed that you know that ogre chieftain who is you know like the memories that you shared together are so much more visceral.

08:58.80
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, remember that assist. You gave me that was cool. Ah.

09:08.48
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

09:15.70
Greg Tito
But also at the same time, not real which is fantastic and ah you know you'll have that bond forever and you know that's why when you go to conventions Now you still hear people who have been playing for decades and they will rattle off stories of of the dragons they slayed and the and the adventures they went on and how that was so formative for them and.

09:15.54
Shelly Mazzanoble
I.

09:18.11
Danilo Vujevic
Yes, ah.

09:35.22
Greg Tito
That's you know this? That's the the the stitches that tie this whole community together.

09:40.86
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah I was I was doing my homework this week as a good podcast I should ah having hair having right? and I guess on this Friday and I was looking through your obviously your your back catalog of episodes and there's a yeah, a couple of names in there just tying into what you you would. You guys were chatting about earlier on about you know, lifting each other up and and seeing how other people move around in the community I was like oh yeah, like yeah, the one I noticed was ah Lucas zeerss from making a monster he we we got very well he's put on the show twice already very well receivedd episodes. No no pressure. You see? Um, but.

10:03.23
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah, yeah.

10:14.29
Danilo Vujevic
Like when I saw that I was asked. Oh awesome Lucas is great and I'm I'm super stoked that he's you know had that opportunity and stuff so that was again people that such as yourselves that I've not even met in in person you know, unfortunately through this through the screen to have that kind of you know, immediate response to their. Success is is is just a nice I'm I'm happy to to be ah to be able to partake and in those kinds of circles.

10:42.24
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah, see you're happy for your friends in this community. Yeah, and and it's not to say like there is no like infighting or like everybody's just hearts and roses everybody gets along all the time like um, but.

10:43.51
Danilo Vujevic
Um, yes.

10:48.25
Greg Tito
Lifting them up.

10:55.12
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

10:56.78
Shelly Mazzanoble
And there is a tremendous amount though of collaboration that happens here that I just don't see happening in other communities.

11:06.26
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah, and and having ah maybe maybe I'm in a Uk position or not oh well similar to yourselves in that there've the several guests on every every week and I've been exceptionally fortunate to have people like Lucas on and have made.

11:22.40
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah, yeah.

11:22.22
Danilo Vujevic
Bonds with those people again people I never would have met otherwise from other completely different walks of life completely different demographics completelyly different parts all over the world as well to then have this this network is of the shared love for a hobby is is cool like that's just.

11:35.99
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah.

11:36.93
Greg Tito
And that's what I've loved about how it's changed over the last decade right? like I think that other people have observed this. We've talked about in a bunch on drag and talk. But just the idea that that being able to communicate over thousands of miles through.

11:41.57
Danilo Vujevic
M.

11:55.17
Greg Tito
You know what started with Forum post and then with social media and then through through actual video and content production um has I think tightened those bonds between people so that it wasn't just like oh you can be famous in in ah Peoria Indiana for having a great d and d game.

12:09.91
Shelly Mazzanoble
Here.

12:13.50
Greg Tito
And only people in Peoria would know that like now people beyond your you know country Borders you know around the world can see um you know if you put it online just how amazing those those stories that you can tell with that community and that's what I love is that it is. It's become truly a global.

12:20.83
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yes, okay.

12:30.95
Danilo Vujevic
Oh.

12:32.50
Greg Tito
Community through that.

12:32.60
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah, yeah, so thinking back to your first game Dan when you wanted your friend to be there because you said you needed you wanted him to be the social lubricant but little did you know d and d is actually the social lubricant new tagline. But.

12:40.21
Danilo Vujevic
Ah, yeah, oh yes, it it is I should that's that's the that's the snippet of today's show thank you very much I really like 10 minutes in.

12:50.57
Greg Tito
Ah, we're replacing wine and beer. Ah.

12:52.43
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, ah, but yes, it is but it it does act as that you you immediately have that bond together for for sharing in this hobby.

13:03.97
Greg Tito
And that's been really interesting. So then when we talk to Educators or or therapists how they use D and D in that realm right? So like that's always fascinating to us is that Yeah, we're calling it a social lubricant but it is the the framework for how.

13:05.50
Danilo Vujevic
Um, yes, absolutely.

13:14.76
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, yeah.

13:21.93
Greg Tito
People get together and communicate they may not have those rules and those things set up in their lives or or how their their specific brain chemistry works right? and so D and D can provide that for folks who may not be able to get it anywhere else and I think that also creates a sense of community where. Ah, you know, especially kids. But all people who are neuroddiergent have a a place to be a place where they can be on and on a more equal footing than the neuraltypical people in their lives right? and so that's that's I love with it. It's It's not only helping people who are.

13:45.87
Danilo Vujevic
M.

13:58.61
Greg Tito
I Dont want to say mainstream but people who are you know, ah already a part of a larger community but people who can't find community in other places they can find it here.

14:05.41
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, yeah.

14:07.93
Danilo Vujevic
Absolutely and and I've mentioned it before on the show but I was on a we were a weekend away in Brighton in in England and we would gone into one of our friendly local gaming stores at there for the games and and whatnot a big gaming area worn out and it was. 3 30 4 in the afternoon and there was a group of school kids still in their uniform with an adult dming a game for them and they're like clambering up on the table and you know shouting at each other and like slamming dice down and I was oh man that seems like so much fun. Let me.

14:37.33
Greg Tito
Ah.

14:40.57
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah I want to do that.

14:44.68
Danilo Vujevic
They haven't yeah they haven't the time of their life and that's you know I didn't I didn't have that opportunity when I was their age so I was like that's that's so cool I'm super stoked to those kids? Um, so obviously you you guys have had an awful lot of.

14:46.97
Greg Tito
That's amazing.

14:50.80
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yes, me too I Love to hear that.

15:01.54
Danilo Vujevic
Guests and they therefore have a very wide net when it comes to that that wider community I wanted to ask then this is a unique question for yourselves. What is what what what? What would you say is the 1 discussion. You guys have had when you've been interacting with the community that has either really really stood out. And I'm but of it I'm using my politician words here. Not say not to say best? Ah but as stood out because people have asked me who's my favorite guest I'm like I'm ah answer not come on. Ah um, so yeah, what? what? or that's really taking you back as.

15:25.39
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah.

15:28.50
Greg Tito
Right? there We love them all. Equally.

15:28.41
Shelly Mazzanoble
No no.

15:37.79
Danilo Vujevic
That's come out of left field or sideswiped she's like well I didn't even realize that was a ah thing that was happening in the D and D Community is is more where I want to take that question. So.

00:40.81
Shelly Mazzanoble
So when writing this book Welcome to Dragon talk. It is a collection.

00:57.98
Shelly Mazzanoble
Of essays that are inspired by past drag and talk interviews and Greg and I had a pretty difficult time trying to pare down just what we came up with what 29 essays out of like at the time of starting this book. Maybe 5 years of history. But.

01:14.93
Greg Tito
Yeah.

01:16.57
Shelly Mazzanoble
For a weekly podcast. That's a lot of interviews so it was um, it was a challenge but there were some that that definitely rose to the top either because it was just something a topic that really connected with 1 of us or we learned something about ourselves during that interview that we did not.

01:16.91
Danilo Vujevic
Are.

01:35.62
Shelly Mazzanoble
No, or like you said people were doing some really cool innovative things with dungeons and dragons that we had not been aware of before and I think both Greg and I also have a type of interview like the things that like we both just get really excited about and for me, it was more general of. How teachers use d and d in classrooms and how therapists use d and d and therapy similar to what Greg had been touching on before but I was really surprised and so excited to learn that I guess so.

01:59.51
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

02:11.77
Shelly Mazzanoble
And thinking about cade wells I guess he was one of the first educators that we had on the show and this was a while ago and Greg does write about him in the book but he was one of the first people that we talked to that made us realize wow like this game is not just fun and entertainment There are. Things in this game that are really impacting people in such unique and profound ways and the way that he was using d and d to inspire kids and especially you know at a school that was had a lot of challenges a lot of the students were challenged um socially emotionally just. Ah, like education just wasn't a priority for them and then to find that he was using dungeons and dragons with these kids parts of it and then all of a sudden seeing them starting to perform well on tests or actually like pick up a pen and.

02:52.80
Danilo Vujevic
I.

03:10.16
Shelly Mazzanoble
Willingly start writing something and it was you know a backstory for their character or a little bit of world building for this world that they were deciding that they wanted to create but holy Moly to see like these kit like this game is actually inspiring people to do great things.

03:15.46
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

03:29.30
Shelly Mazzanoble
And the same with therapy and how d and d can actually change people like help them gain social skills like as Greg was saying help them find communities but also like helping them feel feel confident feel empowered. Actually feel what it's like to have control in their lives for the first time and it's just it goes so far beyond just a game and I think that was really impactful. Definitely for for Greg and I to see that people were doing so much with this game that we are so lucky to come.

03:55.26
Danilo Vujevic
Ah.

04:06.32
Shelly Mazzanoble
To work every day and and and work on so that's my type I like those.

04:06.76
Danilo Vujevic
M.

04:09.99
Greg Tito
My time I think is more performance based I really love entertainers and people who have found some success in their in show business. But then also perhaps tying that back to dungeon the dragons or. Getting to dungons and dragons as a ah you know quote unquote safe way to be creative in ah in a performance way without it. You know being you know scrutinized by by millions of people right? like it's the joy that can come from playing d and d um.

04:43.62
Danilo Vujevic
M.

04:48.12
Greg Tito
But as far as the one that was the most impactful I think that honestly each one of these ones that we chose to write about changed us in some ways and I think that's what makes these essays so powerful is that if they're not really about the individuals that we're writing about I mean they are but they they. The ones that came to the forefront were ones that had ways that it it affected me and Shelley as we were talking through them and how much it changed our understanding and a lot of that came and it's and it's a topic that is is kind of a through line throughout here and it's one. We've already touched on here which is. Ah, the idea of inclusion like trying to to to consciously include more people is ah something that I think drag and talk was not not even intentionally, but kind of found it on right? like we we we were always about like oh yeah let's just bring in more people that do different fun things.

05:37.45
Danilo Vujevic
Oh.

05:43.96
Greg Tito
With drag and talk and that was you know on its face just trying to get and book more interviews but also those by doing so we ended up having a a thesis statement which is that we want everybody to play this game because we think it you know. For all the reasons that Shelley just outlined in talking through people who are marginalized like there's so much benefit people can get from playing this being a part of that community and and and feeling like they are included right? and so I'm not going to go into too much detail but there's definitely ah, an an essay in here where I talk to. Ah, about our conversation with omega jones and the backdrop of that is the kind of turmoil that was going on in 2020 here in the United States and how he was able to use both his power of performance and ah.

06:22.30
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um.

06:37.55
Greg Tito
The forum that he had on Twitch to be able to talk through some of the the pain and hurt that ah black people and people of color were feeling in America during that time and and in the d and d community and shining a light on that and how you know the d and d community can continue to grow and change tiny to pass when I talk to her. Ah, back in 16 um, that was just a light on kind of switch moment for me where I'm like huh we can invite people who may have felt excluded in the past to dragon talk and not make that the topic of the conversation but just just talk to them about their love of dungeons and dragons and what it meant to them and the memories that they forged around the table and and. Things that they hope to see going forward and things that we want. You know you know so the topics were always there on the surface but they ended up changing a lot of um, what's going on and and and I can look to that interview as something that has had a huge impact on me both professionally and personally going forward, but the one that I also really like and maybe. This would be great for folks who are listening in the Uk is Rufus Hound ah the interview that we did with him in 2020 so this was in the pandemic era and he is a performer he is a great storyteller and he took us on a journey during our interview.

07:37.49
Danilo Vujevic
Oh wow.

07:37.66
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah.

07:52.22
Greg Tito
That I don't think either of us expected Shelley where he was talking about his struggles with personal struggles with ah you know being separated from his wife and his family during that time as well as his dependence on alcohol and. None of those things really came to light until he started playing dungons and dragons and he had created something that in his words had created so many layers from his subconscious so that his subconscious could could tell him he needed to get help and throughout that kind of that whole story. Shelly and I were just.

08:17.57
Danilo Vujevic
Oh my.

08:29.00
Greg Tito
Along for the ride and by the end of it all 3 of us were were in tears at at the power that this you know, ostensibly silly game that involves rolling math rocks and slaying dragons. But it it touched something profound within him and just being able to share that with. Our podcast listeners and now in this book is is something that I think you know was really impactful.

08:57.88
Danilo Vujevic
Thank you guys? Yes, it's a testament to the game that it it can be a silly little game with math rocks like for sure. Ah, yeah, and I've done it almost weekly. Um, but then also you can have it all the way at the other end of the of the.

09:05.29
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, and that's fine. Yes.

09:14.46
Danilo Vujevic
The scale where it is this. You know can be this profound light bulb engaging moment. Um, and that's what I like personally for me as the kind of person I am I like delivering training and helping people learn. And better themselves and I love that that light bulb moment that I remember I remember very well when my current game which is now online but we we started in person and having those oh we can. We can do that. That's a thing that we can do in this game I was like that's that's why I'm here.

09:45.61
Greg Tito
Um.

09:46.87
Greg Tito
Um, yes.

09:53.50
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, yeah, yeah.

09:53.37
Danilo Vujevic
That's why I'm here for 5 hours that's it that's that's made me very happy.

09:55.69
Greg Tito
Um, oh yeah, and having that light turn on when they're adults is 1 thing that's really amazing because you're like oh there, there's a freedom of gameplay there that they that they may not realize but then having that moment with a child. Ah.

10:03.32
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

10:08.72
Danilo Vujevic
M.

10:09.33
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah.

10:12.33
Greg Tito
Experiencing that moment like gosh. There's nothing. There's nothing better than that because they can truly express themselves in ways that they are not able to in their lives generally and and then have a community support them and cheer them on.

10:20.31
Danilo Vujevic
M.

10:26.10
Greg Tito
Ah, or grown in failure if they mess something up write together or laugh at at. Ah, what's occurring like having an audience that is generally got your back is is I think one of the one of the beauties of it.

10:26.24
Danilo Vujevic
M.

10:40.88
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah, absolutely absolutely? Um, okay so one of the things that I ah wanted to talk about. We're gonna We're gonna shift tracks for a second here and I want to bring it in into the into the game. Um, and this.

10:54.72
Greg Tito
3

10:57.42
Danilo Vujevic
This is this is a question that I've asked previous guests on similar topics in when you're making a setting or doing some homebrew or building a world have you want to cool it how you know what's the best way to Build. Communities or the most realistic way to build communities in those worlds to have it. Not just be if this is the kind of game you want not just be a dungeon delve or not just be a 2 wo-dimensional. You walk around like superstars all the time you Know. What are the what are the and and obviously if that's the game you want Then? That's totally fine. Please go ahead. But on those other games where you you want that kind of you want to breathe life into a world. What are the kind of tips and tricks or ways that you've picked up on or or maybe amuse yourselves of building a a settlement or a political setup.

11:33.37
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, ah right.

11:52.71
Danilo Vujevic
Or some other you know Village Community for example of trying to emulate those complex systems I think it's fair to say when it's just one poor Dm that's meant to be delivering those systems.

12:01.17
Greg Tito
Um.

12:06.96
Greg Tito
Well I think it's not easy, but the way that I go to It is not to create you know not to go into it thinking like I'm going to create a community. It's more about creating characters and how they interact with each other. Um.

12:10.86
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah.

12:16.15
Danilo Vujevic
Oh.

12:24.87
Greg Tito
But that's as you said that is difficult to do when you're playing each one of those characters right? So I think I've done this in the past and I and I would never suggest doing it again, but having like a town meeting as a Dm and and having the adventures be There is awful at least for me. Um.

12:36.51
Danilo Vujevic
Wow.

12:43.66
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, ah.

12:44.67
Greg Tito
Because you have to you have to talk to yourself. Basically you have to be like well I think we should do this what I think we should do this and in some ways you end up having like these these weird like am I schizophrenic or is this even coming across.

12:45.29
Danilo Vujevic
Yes.

12:53.74
Danilo Vujevic
Yes.

12:57.90
Greg Tito
In a way that gets together and so I try to make it all bounce off of the characters. The player characters right? So if you create a town. It needs to it needs to be anything is a reflection of what the player characters are doing and so it can be. Satisfying and something I did a lot when I was a kid was like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna build this village and there's the blacksmith and there's the Inn keep and this is what their you know stats are because I was very obsessed with what the stats of townsfolk were when I was a kid. It was something that I just enjoyed Um, but.

13:26.62
Danilo Vujevic
Um, yeah, 1

13:27.64
Shelly Mazzanoble
Have I asked what.

13:32.80
Greg Tito
That's not necessary. It really isn't and that's something we have learned and talked about a lot ah with other dungeon masters is that that sense of over preparation. Um can make you feel like you're you're creating something but the hard part is still. How are you going to present that to your player characters. Um. And and it doesn't become real until that happens right? You can make as many notes as you want about? you know that the innkeeper has a 12 strength. But if that unless that really comes out in play. it's it's not it's not true in in the world of the game quite yet and so I've gone much.

13:56.72
Shelly Mazzanoble
You know.

14:01.75
Danilo Vujevic
M.

14:08.10
Greg Tito
You know the other direction where I Improv almost all of those details right? So I'll have I'll have outlines of like okay this person could maybe do something and this person could maybe do something if you know if the player characters want to go talk to them. Um, but I've moved away from um.

14:10.80
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah.

14:25.79
Greg Tito
You know from creating that map of you know this is this building. This is that building and who lives there because it oftentimes either doesn't go the way you want the way you and envisioned and then you can get frustrated as a Dm because it's not being presented in the way that is the platonic ideal of how you wanted this village to be presented. Ah, or B you make up all that stuff and then they just burn the village down and so you don't have you don't all those people that you loved and carefully crafted. Ah, you know, get attacked by the goblins and the player characters fail to save them or something right? and you're just like oh okay, well that was you know hours of wasted.

14:47.13
Danilo Vujevic
Um, yeah, yeah.

14:48.50
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah.

14:56.89
Shelly Mazzanoble
That was a lot of work.

14:58.73
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah, it's that it's that I like.

15:01.88
Greg Tito
Ah, so I like to do it all through through the performance and in the in game itself honestly and then take the notes and have them stay consistent through them.

15:10.51
Danilo Vujevic
It's that it's that Bell curve meme of like the novice being like oh I I stat block everything Just in case, you know I I need to do that to have control. Ah I Sorry like I don't do it because I don't know what I'm doing and then the top of the Bell curve is I'm I'm going to stat block everything to the back at expert level where it's like. I don't need to do it because I know it's not going to be.. It's just might not get used all about yourself Shelley Any Yeah nuggets of wisdom.

15:28.78
Shelly Mazzanoble
Now.

15:29.39
Greg Tito
It's not going to be everywhere that. Yeah.

15:36.16
Shelly Mazzanoble
Well I am a very very green novice Dungeon Master. So the idea of creating anything on my own is terrifying So I'm I'm very much reliant on Published um adventures and and content. But I have had the pleasure of talking to a lot of. Dungeon Masters on Dragon Talk and I think that some of the best advice I've heard so kind of related to this is to help to give players something familiar and or something that something that matters in their.

16:09.96
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

16:12.58
Shelly Mazzanoble
Real lives and to use that as kind of a way to get them invested in the story and they'll become invested in the characters and I think that that by itself helps Foster a community feeling as well. So it just kind of when I played with kids I introduced.

16:26.78
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

16:31.85
Shelly Mazzanoble
Neighbor Kids to dungeons and Dragons I had them their adventure started at their school because that's where they feel the tightest community that that is their community and they I had their Principal ended up being their quest giver and I think that that they were very. Invested in the story because it took it their community was at Stake. There was something that that could potentially happen to their school if they didn't succeed on their on their quest. So I I think they they I hope at least that they had felt that community because I used.

16:54.20
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah.

16:56.92
Greg Tito
Um.

17:04.20
Danilo Vujevic
So. Yeah, yeah, Well firstly I was going to say when you were to about the Principal Aie He's either going to be the Quest giver or the big Bad. Oh I didn't know which way you' were goingnna take that here.

17:09.99
Shelly Mazzanoble
Their actual community. You got to add a little reality with your fantasy sometimes.

17:21.92
Shelly Mazzanoble
Right? I did now and I am terrified of this woman I do not want her. She should not know that I've been painting her in a bad way. Ah.

17:28.83
Greg Tito
Um, oh my gosh if that story reached her. Oh so you're you're making me the big bad guy.

17:30.17
Danilo Vujevic
It.

17:36.40
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah, now you're the you're the queen of the goblins is the it's much better.

17:36.67
Shelly Mazzanoble
Oh so I hear I'm a Goblin Hu Ah, there's a deference. Yeah, she is. She's a very good and Pc in fact, like she.

17:42.76
Greg Tito
Ah, it's much better.

17:45.74
Danilo Vujevic
The salary alone is like yeah.

17:54.51
Shelly Mazzanoble
She knows when something is not on the up and up and she'll just like appear I think once we we brought our foster dog to drop our son off at school and dogs are not allowed on the black top and I swear like 1 tiny little chihuahua fingernail may have touched the black top and she was like poop.

17:58.77
Danilo Vujevic
Move.

18:13.94
Shelly Mazzanoble
Get that dog away from the black top I'm like how did she do that My son was like she teleports. She can teleport her. She's just everywhere. Yes, so very inspired I know he was like.

18:18.95
Greg Tito
Ah I I.

18:26.30
Danilo Vujevic
Ah I Love those kind of like elements of canon that children make for their real world. That's like oh that's like she teleports. That's yeah, how do you not know so the the follow up to that that it might be slightly a redundant question. But.

18:29.76
Greg Tito
Yeah, yeah.

18:33.65
Shelly Mazzanoble
Very matter. Of fact, they like duh everybody knows she teleports. Ah.

18:43.95
Danilo Vujevic
As you said before d and d typically 9 times out of 10 ostensibly is a fantasy quote unquote game. So how important then do you think is it to anchor some or all or elements of it in reality and if so. Where would you sit on that that scale like just 1 or 2 kind of loadstones that people can relate to or maybe have a whole like the setting be the school for example, so I know we're kind of digressing a little bit here but that's my progressive. So.

19:13.80
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, yeah, it's your show. You take it where you want I think it's only what not say only I think that in the the few times that I have demed for people who are brand new it. It worked well because it it.

19:31.69
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

19:33.62
Shelly Mazzanoble
It can be hard to just be like you're off in like this magical strange world that you have absolutely no ties to no context, no nothing and that it helped ground them a little it just gave them something to like cling to as they were getting their feet wet with it.

19:40.60
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

19:50.27
Danilo Vujevic
Oh.

19:50.49
Shelly Mazzanoble
Now all of a sudden I'm ah an elf and I can do magical things and what is role playing so it helps in that regard to just just give them a little bit of grounding I don't know how important I kind of like it when a dungeon master will weave in something that's a little familiar to me but I don't know that it's.. It's entirely important I don't know where I would fall on the scale I think I would I would go higher on the scale if it's for for new people who have 0 background in what D and D is.

20:19.97
Greg Tito
Yeah I would definitely agree with that.

20:21.81
Danilo Vujevic
Um, that the the good example that the answer for every D and D question is it. It depends I Love it.

20:26.46
Shelly Mazzanoble
Well it depends depends on the group. Yeah.

20:28.52
Greg Tito
Yeah, depends on the Dm Um, yeah and I've I've heard of people who are have used that to introduce to new players to even you know as adults because it does feel like oh all, right? there's there's it's an easing into the playing pretend.

20:43.62
Shelly Mazzanoble
Yeah.

20:45.30
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

20:45.61
Greg Tito
Um, because what can feel extremely um, ah high barrier for for folks is that like well I don't know the entire history of the forgotten realms I don't know you know the political ah landscape here or what's right and wrong in this fantasy world. But you know if you have a little bit of.

20:54.46
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah, yeah.

21:00.65
Danilo Vujevic
Oh.

21:04.74
Greg Tito
Of context and you know an apocalypse happening at ah at an office I've heard people have run it like oh like there's a you, you're just in your ah like if you done an office game. You know people are just in their cubicles and then the zombie zombie apocalypse breaks out and then people are like all right? What do we do in that situation. Oh you're the guy who's got the keys to the store room so we go to. Hit his desk first because that's where we'll get the most weapons we need to defend off the zombies. Um, but 1 thing I really like about ah the how the d and d community has shifted ah is this is kind of tangentible to your to your question but it's something that popped in my brain which was how.

21:28.90
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

21:42.93
Greg Tito
Ah, real worldl community building tactics has been incorporated within d and d play and the thing that comes to mind is things like session 0 and checking in and x cards and and allowing for a free flow of communication which.

21:53.44
Shelly Mazzanoble
We have.

21:54.12
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

22:01.93
Danilo Vujevic
Oh.

22:02.17
Greg Tito
Has the same route as community. Um, between ah the players and the Dms right? where I think in the past you, you might just get into a game because it was the only game you had available to you at your local game store. And there were not these tools or expectations set in place and you might end up being in a situation that you didn't love and didn't know that you weren't going to love it but having that open flow of you know I want to play a game like this I don't want to play a game that has these elements um and normalizing that.

22:34.42
Danilo Vujevic
Oh.

22:34.89
Greg Tito
Which has happened in our in our actual communities and and has allowed our actual communities to grow and include so many more different groups I Love that that is now a big part of of D and D play and so that people can um, continue to use those things that work you know good in our and in our world. To to to make sure that the the play is governed by the same kind of rules of decency and you know, ah with the word just happiness. That's not that's not the word I was looking for but it's good enough for me.

22:57.69
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah, yeah, yeah that that thank you for bringing up that session 0 stuff because it just made me think that that is a very good example of something that's almost been like organically refined through.

23:01.81
Shelly Mazzanoble
Now.

23:17.11
Danilo Vujevic
the the d and d community through the thousands of games that people use it in and then report back to their their social communities and be like oh x didn't work. But then I tried y and that was a lot better and then now going forward I'm going to use y a lot more at my games and that that kind of says so very. Almost you can almost track like the genesis of session 0 from almost nonexistent to now this very well not never perfect because I think it's ever perfect. It's always improving but just just getting there all the way down. 

00:00.65
Danilo Vujevic
Yes, amazing. Thank yeah I completely agree. Ah I'm sure you do too Shelley right? ah.

00:10.80
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um I do indeed everything Greg says is fascinating and correct.

00:12.79
Danilo Vujevic
Awesome! Well thank you so much for today's discussion is there anything that we that you wanted to talk about that. We haven't quite hit you or had the opportunity to on the topic of community.

00:26.50
Greg Tito
I Think just get people in like that's what's so exciting about this is that it's ah, there's never been a better time to get into dungeons and dragons because of this uplifting community that surrounds it as well as the many opportunities to play. Whatever.

00:26.21
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, yeah.

00:42.10
Greg Tito
Type of d and d fantasy game is your genre of choice from more sci-fi tinge stuff to the fay wild stuff that Shelly was mentioning to you know, straight up swords and sorcery like there's just so much out there. Um, that people are doing and creating and you know there's a wealth.

00:52.75
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um.

01:00.29
Greg Tito
So join.

01:02.54
Shelly Mazzanoble
And really know that d and d is ah something for everyone like to just to add on to what Greg said no matter who you are what your interests are I definitely didn't think that I would be into a game like d and d because I'm not a traditional.

01:07.62
Danilo Vujevic
M.

01:19.82
Shelly Mazzanoble
Fantasy Genre fan and yet there is so much here to love and a big part of that is of course being part of this amazing community but no matter what there is a place for you at somebody's table so get out there and try it roll that D Twenty and. Watch your life change.

01:40.96
Danilo Vujevic
Ah, the absolute the barrier to entry now is like on the floor I like I know I know people say there is ah ah you know you have to. There is a cost upfront. But I don't think there is because you have so many passionate people out there in the community who as you said earlier on are just willing to be like I'll play I'll let me let me let me be your guide through this through this lovely Hobby is is mad like and ah and just to just to.

01:58.79
Shelly Mazzanoble
I'll play right now. Yeah.

02:00.70
Greg Tito
Totally.

02:07.47
Danilo Vujevic
Put a nice little pin on it is 2 of my colleagues from that game. They were originally like yourself. She it like what fantasy that is lord of the rings and that's it. That's to them. Um, if I don't even think one of them had seen even that.

02:18.28
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, yeah.

02:22.10
Greg Tito
Wow.

02:23.74
Danilo Vujevic
And then they, they've they've gone from from that to now like oh I want can I do this with my character and oh yeah, the the the tribal chieftain of my you know my home tribe is I want him to be like this and he's gonna and this this that and the other and they're all spinning out these wonderful yarns that I'm. So happy to be able to build in to the story is to see that progression is is amazing and they've they've again because of that but that barrier entry interest So Low. So I I Completely agree that now is a good time to join.

02:54.47
Greg Tito
It's working. It's working. Yeah, and if you want to get people into the community um without having to do it all yourself. Well, that's what this book I think can can be a really great guide. It's not super long welcome to drag and talk.

02:55.78
Shelly Mazzanoble
It's working.

02:58.67
Danilo Vujevic
Um.

03:01.88
Danilo Vujevic
So.

03:09.47
Greg Tito
It's available everywhere I'm going to go right into pitching mode If you don't mind.

03:12.69
Danilo Vujevic
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go go ahead.

03:14.66
Shelly Mazzanoble
Ah, do it Greg.

03:17.42
Greg Tito
Yeah, you could get it from ah the Iowa University Of Iowa Press website you can preorder right now. Um, it's available officially on December fifth but if you preorder you can get copies I have friends and yeah.

03:29.59
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, like officially yes people have gotten it.

03:32.89
Greg Tito
Who have already gotten ah copies of it. We're also recording an audiobook which will be available soon after December fifth that will have us on microphone talking through and and and performing these essays and the introductions as if you were listening to the podcast itself which is super fun. Um, so yeah, it's a great gift I think out there for people who are d and d fans already who are maybe even listeners of dragon talk. But I think it's an even better guide to folks who are d and d curious and want to learn more and you do. A really great service just following along some of the stories of the people that are in the essays in this book as well as you know of course listening to dragon talk each week as we interview more and more people in the community.

04:20.16
Danilo Vujevic
Awesome D and D curious I'm going to use that i't heard that before but I'm gonna that's gonna be my tagline the next time I you know coerce my colleagues into playing with me that will be the subject of the email I think is ah.

04:22.60
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um.

04:29.25
Greg Tito
Are you D and D curious.

04:33.72
Shelly Mazzanoble
Um, ah.

04:35.58
Danilo Vujevic
Absolutely Ah so yes, um, and just in case Jelly is anything you wanted to add on to the but the end of that.

04:42.56
Shelly Mazzanoble
Greg says it beautifully? Um, but I do think it's also important to note that even if you've never listened to an episode of dragon talk or you have never played d and d I think that you will still find something in this book to enjoy because it really is about people's personal experiences and just. You know I think they're 29 of some of the most fascinating people that we've had the pleasure to talk to so check it out.

05:06.79
Danilo Vujevic
Amazing. Well in which case ah all the links to everything everybody's mentioned will be in the episode description as per usual otherwise all that's left to say is 1 final. Thank you Greg and Shelley very much for today's conversation it's been heartwarming Heartfelt Earnest and ah empowering as well in a weird way. So thank you very so much guys.

05:26.88
Greg Tito
Oh those are all I Love all of those adjectives. Thank you.

05:28.54
Shelly Mazzanoble
Oh thank you? It was a pleasure to be here.

05:35.94
Danilo Vujevic
Ah, um, I'm full of super livess me that's my that's my shtick is part of being a Dm right is is the ah is is that? Yeah yeah.

05:36.80
Shelly Mazzanoble
I I like it I support that.

05:43.57
Greg Tito
Being able to have the thesaurus like yeah, exactly.

05:50.22
Danilo Vujevic
Absolutely well in which case then ah all that's have to say is ah thank you all for listening and good night.

05:57.46
Shelly Mazzanoble
Thank you.

05:59.44
Greg Tito
Yay! Thank you