Aug. 5, 2022

Extinction


Once again I welcome Lucas Zellers, a.k.a @SparkOtter, as we continue our theme from the Monster episode. We discuss a critical topic as Lucas takes us through his new project: Book of Extinction. The book gives game statistics and lore for D&D 5e, alongside real-world history for some of the world’s most famous extinct animals. The project comes at a critical time as earth’s sixth mass extinction accelerates, with more species likely to disappear in the next 20 years than in the last century alone according to the National Academy of Sciences. We discuss the possibility of society becoming numb to extinction, and how these natural events have inescapably shaped the Monster Manual.

  • 02:00 - Extinction: The Core of D&D
  • 08:39 - True Stories Behind Some of the Monster Manual's Extinct Creatures
  • 23:58 - Dino Discussion
  • 31:10 - Extinction-Level Events
  • 38:01 - Content Deprecation
  • 41:48 - TPE: Total Party Extinction

Find Lucas on:

Find Thinking Critically online: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk

References:

Patrons:

Intro Music: 'Local Forecast' by Kevin MacLeod
Intermission Music: 'Chill' by Kevin MacLeod
Outro Music: 'Local Forecast - Elevator' by Kevin MacLeod

Transcript

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welcome thinkers to season four episode

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seven of thinking critically a d d

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discussion

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no new announcements this week

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so the only thing left to say is i hope

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you really enjoy the episode so without

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further ado here it is

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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and today i'm joined once again by lucas

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sellers thank you ever so much for

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returning to the show lucas can you tell

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us a little bit about yourself

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thanks for having me back dan i have

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styled myself now as a narrative

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designer

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wow i know it's very fancy i've been

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working at the intersection of game

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design and natural history and i'm the

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creator of book of extinction with me

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chan press a best-selling dm skilled

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author host of the podcast making a

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monster and a creative marketing

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professional in my day job amazing and

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of of course your number one credential

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is you were on thinking critically again

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of course okay i forget yes uh november

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guest of uh

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thinking critically major federation way

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up there yeah

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[Laughter]

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um

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yes of course lucas with us before

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talking about monsters which will be

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linked to the episode description and i

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would encourage everybody to check it

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out it's a fan favorite if i do say say

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oh great yeah indeed however today's

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topic is perhaps the other side of that

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same coin extinction

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so

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what does that mean to you within the d

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and wider ttrpg framework it did come up

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a little bit last time i was here

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extinction

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is the defining scientific idea of our

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time

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and it is

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at the core of what makes dnd

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what it is

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i mean

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how how deep do we want to go how long

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do you want me to talk like right out of

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the gate at the beginning of the show

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like for 55 minutes if you could in the

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morning

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[Laughter]

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gosh why don't you why don't you

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elaborate on that because you just said

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they're what it's the core of of d and i

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don't think i would ever find another

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guest to

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to open an episode with such an

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audacious comment

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that's that's the journalist in me uh

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i'm i'm running with the headline first

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so first of all extinction is probably

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the first thing about natural history

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that you would learn if you were born

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i don't know any time after the release

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of jurassic park or probably within

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about 20 years of that

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we give kids plastic dinosaurs and uh

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we're just used to the idea now that

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there used to be big giant things that

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aren't around anymore

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so it's it's one of the primary ways in

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which we relate to the natural world now

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so extinction is the defining scientific

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idea of our time we're very used to

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extinction at this point we just sort of

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take it for granted

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but it wasn't always a part of

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scientific discourse in fact it's fairly

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it's a fairly recent addition

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um thomas jefferson was

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wrote in his notes on the state of

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virginia that such is the economy of

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nature that no instance can be produced

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of her having permitted any one race of

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her animals to become extinct of her

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having formed any lincoln her great work

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so weak as to be broken and that was in

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1781 and it didn't it wasn't that idea

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wasn't unseated like that was based on

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just the assumption of all of natural

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history back to pliny in ancient greece

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and it persisted until 1796 when georges

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cuvier was the first one to

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suggest that the bones of the american

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mastodon belonged to an espicia perdu

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or a lost species and now i have tried

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to pronounce a french word which is

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making me extremely self-conscious but

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you're talking to an englishman here

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notoriously unable to

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it's probably better that i

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mispronounced the french i suppose

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i wouldn't be able to tell you here if

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it's a correct or not so no that's fine

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you made me think there that

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in a way do you think people are maybe

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uh

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numb is maybe too strong a word but like

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desensitized to that now as it's so oh

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absolutely ingrained in our childhood

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that like oh another animal was going

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extinct well that's just life i guess

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yeah and that's er that's kind of the

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point we're in the midst of what

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elizabeth colbert calls the sixth mass

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extinction there have been five of them

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over the course of uh recorded history

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or rather the historical record that we

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have back to

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back through

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time and this is the one

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you know the last one was the kt

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extinction event or at least that's how

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we sort of think of it the one that is

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thought to have been caused by an

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asteroid impact in the yucatan the one

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that killed the dinosaurs and now we're

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in a place where

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extinction is happening at an estimated

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45

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000 times higher than the background

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extinction rate

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it's incredibly difficult to calculate

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how often species go extinct even before

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this ecological situation in which we

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find ourselves but the best estimate

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i've found is that for mammals the

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background extinction rate is one

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species every

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700 years

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and i have a list of

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over a hundred that i have been uh

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working through

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but go back to years with four digits

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like the what's known as the holocene

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the most recent geological epoch um

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after after humans came to prominence in

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the in the geological record so it's

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numb is a good word

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it's an overwhelming

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part of how we experience and interact

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with the natural world right now yeah

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yeah i must admit i am apart from

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being into

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dinosaurs my

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my knowledge on the on the on the

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subject is lacking

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and it is not you know it's not the most

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glamorous of topics or let me let me

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rephrase that it's not the most um

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uplifting i guess yeah it's hard to talk

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about um

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i've been digging up extinction stories

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for

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about a year now to put this book

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together and there have been moments

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where i just uh i've had to walk away

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from my desk in tears because of what

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i've read um and i and i do

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i have found a way to be hopeful about

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it and that's really why i'm here

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so you know i i i imagine we'll get to

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that soon

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well

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uh kyrgyzstan the uh youtuber series

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they did a similar kind of hopeful take

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on on climate change as a as a whole and

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the ending note was like

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it's not all

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doom and gloom there is there is still

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possibility for change oh yeah every

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endangered species is a success story

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waiting to happen oh that that's so

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wholesome save that for the end man

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i'll say it again if i have to have a

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few more of these

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yeah it's hard to talk about because i

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have to like i have to bring people into

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the podcast right out of the way um

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thankfully we've talked already and you

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you kind of know me but i have to sort

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of meet people and say hey we're living

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in a zoologically impoverished era

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and that kind of sucks doesn't it and

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then you know then we have to like

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that's the place that we have to be

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um

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where we have to kind of have the

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conversation so it's hard to do

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in point of fact the uh the american

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psychological association recognized eco

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anxiety

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as a

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uh i don't want to say disorder or a

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symptom um or as a source of a kind of

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anxiety in 2017 it's sort of the fear

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that we're living on a world that will

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soon be unable to support the basic

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biological functions of life so this is

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real and it is hard to talk about and

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i'm more familiar with that difficulty

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than most but one of the things that i

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am desperately trying to do when i write

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about extinction especially in the

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context of dungeons and dragons is to

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write about it in a way that provides

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hope or at the very least an antidote to

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despair

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let's do let's do that classic academic

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tip that certainly younger teachers who

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teach younger generations doing is it's

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making the thing interestingly exciting

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so the the question i have for you is

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obviously been working on

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both making monster and book of

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extinction and i wanted you to

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what kind of interesting animals have

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you

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looked at

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which may have gone extinct that i may

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not have heard of that were probably

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weird and wacky to my uneducated brain

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yeah okay this is this is the fun part

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of this this is

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this is what makes this worth doing

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because every extinction story that i

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have read has been just

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bonkers like i couldn't have made this

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stuff up

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so first of all there's a few that

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everybody wants to talk about right like

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when people talk to me about extinct

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animals they have their favorite

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um and i tried to pick a couple that

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were

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consistent favorites to put in the

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preview so there's three of them out

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right now and you can kind of see my

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design process for how this works one of

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them is the great awk i have the

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thylacine or tasmanian tiger and the the

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passenger pigeon

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i think my favorite of those is the the

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tasmanian tiger

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it was a

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marsupial wolf and and wolf

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tiger nor wolf nor hyena nor jackal are

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really an appropriate

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label for this thing

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um but it's the best we we have it's

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uncanny in a way that uh the feywild is

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uncanny it defies description and

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explanation

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00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:13,040
but it was a

272
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,399
roughly dog-sized uh marsupial that was

273
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,680
native to

274
00:10:14,399 --> 00:10:20,560
the island of tasmania and was

275
00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:23,279
at the time of european settlement just

276
00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:25,440
a major feature of the forests there

277
00:10:23,279 --> 00:10:28,640
and when europeans settled it they

278
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:31,120
brought with them the kinds of domestic

279
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,560
animals that they knew to be helpful for

280
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,920
setting up a life

281
00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:36,399
and so

282
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,160
the tasmanian tiger with its frankly

283
00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:41,120
huge gape

284
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:44,320
was an obvious target for

285
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,959
uh mythologizing it became the sort of

286
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,839
big bad wolf of of tasmania and it

287
00:10:46,959 --> 00:10:52,079
became responsible uh although

288
00:10:49,839 --> 00:10:54,320
it became responsible in myth at least

289
00:10:52,079 --> 00:10:56,160
for the the loss that farmers

290
00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,079
experienced of their

291
00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,000
uh their sheep and i i don't think we

292
00:10:58,079 --> 00:11:02,079
had cow of their sheep like every sheep

293
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,160
that got killed was the result of a

294
00:11:02,079 --> 00:11:05,760
thylacine attack so there was this huge

295
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,800
concerted effort

296
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,519
to

297
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,920
eliminate the thylacine from tasmania

298
00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:15,519
and most experts agree it worked

299
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:17,519
not every but most

300
00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:21,040
the last one was named benjamin and he

301
00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:23,680
died in the hobart zoo in tasmania in

302
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,680
1936.

303
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:28,320
but the way that people talk about the

304
00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:30,320
tasmanian tiger is exactly the same as

305
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:34,000
the way people talk about monsters with

306
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,920
this weird mix of both fear and love

307
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,160
it has a devoted

308
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,880
i don't want to say fan base

309
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:43,120
i do want to say fan base

310
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,959
there's a huge i've i've read at least

311
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,279
three books claiming that it is still

312
00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:50,000
alive somewhere out there in the wilds

313
00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:52,639
of tasmania um living in america we have

314
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,519
bigfoot we have sasquatch that's our guy

315
00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:57,360
and in tasmania it's the thylacine

316
00:11:55,519 --> 00:11:59,120
so i've written the thylacine as a fae

317
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:03,600
creature it had to be

318
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:05,839
with the bizarre mix of both charm and

319
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,240
fear effect so it has the same frightful

320
00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:11,040
presence that you would find in a dragon

321
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,120
and the same enchanting call that you

322
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,880
would find in a siren

323
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,800
because i wanted to get at that like we

324
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,360
were scared of this thing

325
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,160
uh just until we realized that we loved

326
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,920
it um and there's a weird kind of

327
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,720
contrast and a weird kind of

328
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:29,440
dissimilarity and and discontinuity

329
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,760
duality yeah between the way we talked

330
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,720
about it uh and and what ended up

331
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,320
happening

332
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,440
cool i was i was going to say like when

333
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:40,399
you do these these animals do you add in

334
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,480
like fantastical elements

335
00:12:40,399 --> 00:12:44,240
or do you try and keep it quote unquote

336
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,399
mundane but the fact that you've given

337
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,600
it a charm and fear it war is i think

338
00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:48,399
queer

339
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,320
yeah

340
00:12:48,399 --> 00:12:52,480
yeah and it was kind of at issue like

341
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,480
how do we even do this book because i

342
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,040
didn't want to just give you a hundred

343
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,120
more beasts to put in your in your book

344
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,360
because that would be disproportionately

345
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,480
serving the druids in my audience

346
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,800
um

347
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,800
i also wanted to be able to point out

348
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,800
the the vera similitude here and walk

349
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,200
the line between real and fantastic so

350
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,920
we've decided to just do both um you'll

351
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,440
find a stat block for for these animals

352
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,880
on the one page and then on the right

353
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,519
hand page we'll have

354
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,000
or on the facing page we'll have the

355
00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:24,240
fantastical stat block so i've just kind

356
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,639
of juiced it a little bit for it to be

357
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,720
competitive in a world where magic is a

358
00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:30,720
selective pressure something that could

359
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,320
stand alongside the monstrosities and

360
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,880
the aberrations and the things that you

361
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,839
find roaming around d and d so i've done

362
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,199
both

363
00:13:35,839 --> 00:13:40,480
oh amazing amazing so you've done i know

364
00:13:39,199 --> 00:13:41,839
you did you've done the book of

365
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,040
extinction right which is what currently

366
00:13:41,839 --> 00:13:45,120
three

367
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,959
the three monsters you've monsters so i

368
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,720
feel bad saying that to him now yeah and

369
00:13:46,959 --> 00:13:52,320
we can talk about why we use the word

370
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:54,959
monster because i have an opinion

371
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,240
but yeah i'm calling them monsters okay

372
00:13:54,959 --> 00:13:58,959
okay and then obviously we've got making

373
00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,160
a monster as well obviously that we've

374
00:13:58,959 --> 00:14:01,600
talked about previously i just wanted to

375
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,880
know if there's what have you learned

376
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,600
from

377
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,519
doing this kind of unique take on

378
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,199
homebrew because obviously most homebrew

379
00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:11,519
is either

380
00:14:09,199 --> 00:14:14,240
trying to make something that is in the

381
00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:16,880
real world that we know of or it's it's

382
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,839
a creature of pure imagination or

383
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,959
fiction

384
00:14:17,839 --> 00:14:23,279
yeah and these these kind of creatures

385
00:14:20,959 --> 00:14:25,199
these extinct creatures kind of exist in

386
00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:27,279
this liminal space between those two

387
00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:28,560
states that they they did exist at one

388
00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:30,560
point and with the physical things you

389
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,399
could touch and stroke

390
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,920
but then now they don't and they they

391
00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:35,360
are now unfortunately

392
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,199
fiction almost

393
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,839
yeah their story isn't progressing which

394
00:14:37,199 --> 00:14:41,680
i think is why one of the reasons that

395
00:14:39,839 --> 00:14:43,440
writing them as monsters is particularly

396
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,720
appropriate but i think the most

397
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,959
surprising thing that i've learned from

398
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,160
this process is that it's already

399
00:14:46,959 --> 00:14:50,639
happened

400
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,800
i'm not the first one to do this and

401
00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:54,800
that's why i said at the top of the

402
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,320
interview that it's part of the core of

403
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,880
what d is

404
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,120
and i think there are two instances that

405
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,600
i can point to explicitly for where this

406
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,519
happens uh and they are the dire wolf

407
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,279
and the cave bear

408
00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:09,040
so first of all

409
00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:10,399
you daniel i mean you've you've been

410
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,000
running games and you've been talking to

411
00:15:10,399 --> 00:15:13,680
people who make this what is and i'm

412
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,720
genuinely curious what does the word

413
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,320
dire mean to you as a prefix first when

414
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,920
you stick it in front of

415
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,040
uh another another another noun um

416
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,880
like

417
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:28,320
the bigger badder version

418
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,519
imagine the thing

419
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,040
like add 50 more size maybe make it more

420
00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,199
spiky

421
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,360
and that'll do it yeah

422
00:15:35,199 --> 00:15:38,210
like dial the contrast down on the color

423
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,440
scheme

424
00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:40,639
[Music]

425
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,920
just so it's like a bit darker and

426
00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:42,800
grayer and then yeah and then you're

427
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,600
there

428
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,440
yep

429
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,279
yeah and that's it that's

430
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,079
basically what it is so

431
00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:52,000
i resisted the urge i thought making

432
00:15:50,079 --> 00:15:55,040
just creatures that were extinct in the

433
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,519
holocene so somewhere in the last couple

434
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,399
usually in the last couple hundred years

435
00:15:57,519 --> 00:15:59,920
i thought that was going to be the

436
00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:01,759
thrust of the book and then i started

437
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,680
digging up these little bits of what d

438
00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:04,959
and d has inherited from natural history

439
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,720
in the past

440
00:16:04,959 --> 00:16:09,519
and most of them hinge on the idea of

441
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:12,000
that dire creature and that comes to us

442
00:16:09,519 --> 00:16:15,519
from the phenomenon of pleistocene

443
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,680
megafauna so if you look at the previous

444
00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:19,360
geological era the one that is before

445
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:23,360
the one we're in now

446
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:25,440
animals tended to be bigger and i mean a

447
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,360
lot bigger

448
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,000
so not just like 150 percent we're

449
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,519
talking like 250 percent but at least um

450
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,680
we had uh

451
00:16:31,519 --> 00:16:36,480
uh i just i just got a piece back from

452
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:39,199
my artist about the glyptodon which was

453
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,839
a mammal with basically an armadillo the

454
00:16:39,199 --> 00:16:43,519
size of a volkswagen we had a cheetah

455
00:16:41,839 --> 00:16:44,800
fully twice as large as the one you'll

456
00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:47,440
find now

457
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,880
we had a giant ground sloth the size of

458
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,320
an elephant

459
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:54,480
uh everything else oh yeah oh yeah we

460
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,040
have what i uh the project took a

461
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,639
strange turn when i had to add a dire

462
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,399
kangaroo

463
00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:02,959
wow amazing

464
00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:05,839
so yeah there um when

465
00:17:02,959 --> 00:17:09,120
d says dire whatever

466
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:11,679
it is inheriting the idea of pleistocene

467
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:15,039
megafauna which really came around in

468
00:17:11,679 --> 00:17:18,319
the 17 to 1800s when we started digging

469
00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:20,480
up bones of old extinct things and being

470
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,400
able to sort of write that down and

471
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,000
transmit that information in a way that

472
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,919
permitted the uh

473
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,600
the historical journal

474
00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:29,840
so the original direwolf and now i'm

475
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,520
going to mispronounce latin was

476
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,320
an asean

477
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:37,520
an extinct pleistocene megaphone wolf

478
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,960
um so really the word dire means exactly

479
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,160
what you would expect it would bigger

480
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,919
hairier darker probably bonier um and

481
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,760
those uh

482
00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:47,200
that was just the way of the world

483
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,280
before

484
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,360
back back during the the pleistocene era

485
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,440
so we have all of these

486
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,280
remnants of of giant animals that we

487
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,600
just sort of that just sort of became a

488
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,360
part of the way

489
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,520
fantasy was written so everything in

490
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,200
appendix n a lot of it

491
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,559
appeared a lot of that fiction that

492
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:10,240
inspired d d appeared during this period

493
00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:11,760
uh the 1800s or or was inheriting ideas

494
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,880
that appeared during you know the late

495
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,559
17th early 1800s that were generated as

496
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,799
part of

497
00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:21,760
this kind of wave of natural history i

498
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:23,679
know for example that that is the era in

499
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,559
which

500
00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:28,799
lovecraft grew up

501
00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:31,039
and at a certain point i think lovecraft

502
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:33,760
had it right that at a certain point

503
00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:36,240
sheer size is enough

504
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,600
to reconceptualize a human's place in

505
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,480
the food chain

506
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,720
from predator to prey and in lovecraft's

507
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,720
case it was perhaps to paramecium that

508
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,120
we became creatures so comparatively

509
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,640
small that we were beneath the notice of

510
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,160
the food chain entirely and to

511
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,480
comprehend that would be to drive you

512
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,480
mad

513
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,400
so that's that's what dire means that's

514
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,000
that's why extinction is baked into this

515
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,760
and i did mention the cave bear because

516
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,520
i've just learned that that is in the

517
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,760
back of the book it's a little green box

518
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,360
text that says uh if you want to use a

519
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,360
cave bear add

520
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,360
uh add 60 feet of dark vision to the

521
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:11,919
polar bear stat block which weirdly

522
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:14,240
means that cave bears can swim

523
00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:15,679
so i don't know

524
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,760
i don't know that i agree there i've

525
00:19:15,679 --> 00:19:19,679
rewritten the cave bear to my my

526
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,679
purposes but cave bears were the fulcrum

527
00:19:19,679 --> 00:19:23,360
where archaeology turned from mythology

528
00:19:21,679 --> 00:19:25,280
to history

529
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:27,600
there are and you you may you might know

530
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,600
a couple there were these caves all over

531
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,000
europe that were known as dragon's cave

532
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,520
or dragon's lair or dragon's hole and

533
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,720
often in those caves you would find

534
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:39,600
piles and piles of cave bear bones uh

535
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:42,960
and as late as 1672 there's a famous

536
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:45,360
engraving by pj hayne that uh

537
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,280
give that draws cave bare bones and just

538
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:49,520
calls them dragon bones and it looks

539
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,679
exactly like what you would find saint

540
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,039
george stabbing with a spear like that's

541
00:19:51,679 --> 00:19:55,280
the skull that

542
00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:56,559
that you would picture if you if you

543
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,440
ripped it out

544
00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:02,720
so yeah and it took us a while uh it

545
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,880
wasn't until 1794 that um johann

546
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,280
christian rosenmueller a german

547
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,919
anatomist was the first one to give it

548
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,120
the name ursuspalius or literally cave

549
00:20:09,919 --> 00:20:13,600
bear

550
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,200
so the the the legacy of extinction is

551
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,000
all over

552
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,280
the the monster manual and it's all over

553
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,960
the way that

554
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:24,240
heroic fantasy is thought about in

555
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,320
general insofar as j.r.r tolkien is kind

556
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,000
of the godfather of d d and heroic

557
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,480
fantasy in general

558
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,720
his idea of history was that it was

559
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,200
always progressing downward

560
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,039
lesser echoes of the past from less cool

561
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,360
and less magic

562
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:41,760
or rather from great and awesome to less

563
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:44,480
cool and less magic as we go on

564
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:47,200
and it's uh it's echoed by

565
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,120
the opinion of of natural historians of

566
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,840
his time so alfred russell wallace who

567
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:52,240
is

568
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:55,039
a contemporary of darwin

569
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,120
wrote in the geographical distribution

570
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:59,120
of animals 1876.

571
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:02,159
yeah i'm giving footnotes i'm sorry the

572
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:03,919
gda yeah i'm familiar with it yeah how

573
00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:05,520
are you really no yeah

574
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:06,640
oh okay

575
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,370
just trying to sound like i know what

576
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,120
i'm talking about

577
00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:10,380
[Laughter]

578
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,559
hi and welcome to the show

579
00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:14,240
[Laughter]

580
00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:16,559
he said we live in a zoologically

581
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,200
impoverished world from which all of the

582
00:21:16,559 --> 00:21:22,159
hugest and fiercest and strangest forms

583
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,400
of life have recently disappeared

584
00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:26,640
the natural history was was echoing that

585
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:30,799
idea of less cool and less magic as we

586
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:33,280
go on and d is in a in a very real way

587
00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:36,240
reaching back toward a more epic and

588
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:39,919
more dangerous and more magical past a

589
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,440
giant low saturation probably spikier

590
00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:43,679
higher past

591
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,559
there's two things i want to talk about

592
00:21:43,679 --> 00:21:46,880
after

593
00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,799
all of that information one is

594
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,720
i'm petrified by the thoughts of dire

595
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,240
kangaroos because

596
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,640
because regular kangaroos are like

597
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:58,559
shredded af or at least

598
00:21:54,640 --> 00:22:01,360
like it's it's for real

599
00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:03,520
eight feet tall and jacked yeah like

600
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:06,720
they're gonna they're like a diet

601
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,320
kangaroo i got god forbid like whoa

602
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,720
he's gonna be picturing him three feet

603
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,840
higher and proportionately broader yeah

604
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,440
and uh brachycephalic like a bulldog

605
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,440
shorter face

606
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,600
and that's what you've got

607
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,720
geez louise that okay that's nightmare

608
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,720
fuel uh for sure um

609
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,080
and then um also the other reason the

610
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,000
other thing i wanted to say is this is

611
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,880
why i love having you on the show is

612
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,559
because for me personally you you give

613
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,760
me another dimension

614
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:35,360
of the books

615
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,440
and we did that on the on the last

616
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,919
episode where we talked i think about

617
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,000
like the mummy uh the monster in the

618
00:22:39,919 --> 00:22:44,000
monster manual the mummy and on the face

619
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,799
of that it's just like well that's like

620
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,520
the brendan fraser film which is great

621
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:53,120
um but then you know you you you kind of

622
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:56,159
are like yes but down low look like

623
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:58,240
ever so slightly more deeper

624
00:22:56,159 --> 00:22:59,679
and it reveals like it gives you so much

625
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,120
more context in the same way now we're

626
00:22:59,679 --> 00:23:03,120
talking about these diet creatures that

627
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,120
on the face of it to me it just like oh

628
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:07,039
yeah world of warcraft taught me that's

629
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:09,039
just a harder version and that's where

630
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:11,120
the the end of my knowledge lies now

631
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:12,960
it's like well no wait

632
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:15,520
there's more

633
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,000
and it can be both because d does need

634
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,919
to have a mechanism by which

635
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,720
things can get more

636
00:23:19,919 --> 00:23:23,600
dangerous because monsters don't level

637
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,679
up

638
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,280
uh when you polymorph you trade your

639
00:23:25,679 --> 00:23:29,280
character sheet for a stat block and the

640
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,360
stat block doesn't improve so it had to

641
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,400
create kind of these pokemon evolution

642
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,360
chains

643
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,600
of of progressively badder monsters

644
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:40,720
uh i had to write out the hierarchy of

645
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,190
bears from from bound brown or from

646
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,880
black bear up to cave bear

647
00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:46,880
[Laughter]

648
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:50,080
but yeah in that case it's it's sort of

649
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:52,400
reflecting the idea that uh you know

650
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,360
it's it's using game design to reflect a

651
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,400
reality of the world that it inherited

652
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,559
we talked about it a couple times

653
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,480
already about i mean dinosaurs as you

654
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:02,720
you opened the episode with when people

655
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,400
talk about extinct animals

656
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,640
a lot of people are like

657
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,279
t-rexes are cool and jurassic park's a

658
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,320
thing and this is now like you know that

659
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:11,760
that is it

660
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,799
and so of course for better and for

661
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,039
worse

662
00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:18,080
both the standard monster manual and of

663
00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:20,640
the expanded books as well have several

664
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,640
creatures tagged dinosaur essentially

665
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,640
beasts but they are i think by their

666
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:28,559
original names as well right yep there's

667
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,799
a t-rex there's a plesiosaur yeah uh

668
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:34,080
yeah triceratops yeah tricep

669
00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:36,080
tyrannosaurus rex velociraptor yeah um

670
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,799
so yeah they've all got them in there

671
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,240
like verbatim to the to the the words

672
00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:41,520
that people would know them pretty much

673
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,039
yeah so i was going to say like what

674
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,679
what are your have you do you ever look

675
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:45,840
at

676
00:24:43,679 --> 00:24:47,120
those stat blocks for you know for

677
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,000
inspiration when you were looking at

678
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:52,320
yours or have you got any uh hot takes

679
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,159
on their interpretation of extinct

680
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,000
creatures

681
00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:57,919
uh by and large i left it alone i was

682
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,320
trying to do things that didn't already

683
00:24:57,919 --> 00:25:01,840
exist in the book i didn't want to just

684
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,159
rehash what was there but there were a

685
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,400
couple instances in which my work

686
00:25:04,159 --> 00:25:07,840
overlapped with what's there i straight

687
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,440
up took the mammoth like we're

688
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,720
reprinting the mammoth because i have a

689
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,240
point to make

690
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,799
about how it's the mona lisa of

691
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,880
extinction the hot take i think my

692
00:25:14,799 --> 00:25:18,320
favorite hot take about uh d and d's

693
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,039
dinosaurs is that it got the

694
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,559
velociraptor right where jurassic park

695
00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:25,440
got it wrong

696
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:28,000
in the monster manual they are small

697
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,720
they're small beasts tiny beasts in fact

698
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,880
oh tiny yeah rather my bad they are they

699
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,679
are the size of a chicken which is

700
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:38,400
consistent with the fossils that we dug

701
00:25:35,679 --> 00:25:42,640
up the reason that we know them as the

702
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,400
six foot long door opening dinosaurs

703
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,720
that jurassic park gave us is because

704
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,640
they needed to put a dude in the suit

705
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,760
and they couldn't do it

706
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,760
when it was that small

707
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,159
like you're kidding velociraptors are

708
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,400
tiny no no i know velociraptors i've

709
00:25:56,159 --> 00:25:59,600
seen the movie yeah yeah they're

710
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,679
clanging around in the kitchen

711
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,159
downstairs and yeah yeah yeah and in

712
00:26:01,679 --> 00:26:06,080
fact d d got it right where jurassic

713
00:26:04,159 --> 00:26:08,000
park got it wrong so props to you

714
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,440
monster manual

715
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,679
that's good the next time anyone

716
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,600
criticizes dnd for anything right or

717
00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:15,200
wrongly i'm gonna go yeah but

718
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,240
but

719
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,400
they've got chicken sized

720
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,440
and that means

721
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,440
everything else is fine

722
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,960
okay i didn't know that i mean i've

723
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:28,960
probably looked at it before but it

724
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,120
hasn't ever clicked in my head uh until

725
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,320
i look at it right now it's a time it's

726
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:33,520
easy to miss

727
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,000
yeah

728
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,279
a lot of writing beasts like that is and

729
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,600
a lot of writing

730
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:41,120
that is is like finding the tiny tiny

731
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,480
little piece of the stat block to

732
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,720
enshrine

733
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,799
uh the detail about like when we were

734
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,240
talking about the giant ground sloth the

735
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:49,600
thing the size of an elephant i gave it

736
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,760
a burrow speed

737
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,240
um because some ground sloths in its

738
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,840
genus were known to dig burrows that we

739
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,240
found after the fact

740
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,240
so instead of like taking 25 or 50 words

741
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,880
to tell that story i just put comma

742
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,320
burrow 15 feet and now you have to deal

743
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,520
with that as a dm and a player but i

744
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,039
mean i love

745
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,520
burrow speeds as well so we're going to

746
00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:13,600
go back to brass tacks dnd now but yeah

747
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,080
like uh what's the land shark known as

748
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,919
in uh the uh

749
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,440
yes yeah like that is great to just like

750
00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:21,360
smash through if they're in a mine

751
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,840
abandoned mine and it just dives through

752
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,360
the cave wall and it just keeps going

753
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,120
underground and stuff the players can't

754
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,120
chase it is

755
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:31,440
reconceptualizing your place in the food

756
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,039
chain yeah

757
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,440
yeah sharks aren't scary because they

758
00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:38,000
live in the wet bit

759
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,320
and we're very i don't go to the wet bit

760
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,480
and so i'm fine but the bullet is a

761
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,320
shark that lives on the dry bit

762
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,559
now everything is different but we live

763
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,840
on the dry bit lucas

764
00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:49,840
that's my bit

765
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,960
i did i did do in my the last the last

766
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,000
chapter last arc of my homebrew campaign

767
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,200
was

768
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,600
themed as your classic land before time

769
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,700
an island that nobody's been to for oh

770
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,120
yeah thousands of years and so tasmania

771
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:11,360
[Laughter]

772
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:13,919
or mauritius where we found the dodo

773
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,200
like or the the last resting place of

774
00:28:13,919 --> 00:28:17,290
the great oc like you're in great

775
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,480
company as far as natural history goes

776
00:28:17,290 --> 00:28:19,440
[Laughter]

777
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,840
um

778
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,919
unfortunately it was all trivialized by

779
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,120
my players having a cubic gate so

780
00:28:23,919 --> 00:28:27,279
they're just like teleporting everywhere

781
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:29,360
and just teleported through the jungle

782
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:31,279
so all the jungle jungle monsters were

783
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:33,840
just like

784
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:36,799
so the closest we got was the

785
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,880
essentially the glass of water shaking

786
00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:41,200
uh the water in the glass shaking uh

787
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,840
rhythmically but then they never needed

788
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,080
to explore or go further so that that's

789
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:49,360
as close as i got to bringing them in uh

790
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:52,159
i was as a half queueing up a huge epic

791
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:55,360
dinosaur fight and uh

792
00:28:52,159 --> 00:28:56,159
it wasn't it wasn't to be on this land

793
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,000
before

794
00:28:56,159 --> 00:29:01,200
there is something kind of tragic about

795
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,080
that i i know it's i know it's fine but

796
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,640
like

797
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,000
huge like come on guys

798
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,360
it's like hulk at the end of thor

799
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,360
ragnarok big monster

800
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,840
fight the

801
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,840
to fight dinosaurs

802
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,080
i know now that i find normal boring

803
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,840
creatures but anyway yeah

804
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,520
well and that that kind of catharsis was

805
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,159
a part of what i wanted to do with

806
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,840
extinction was to to sort of be able to

807
00:29:24,159 --> 00:29:28,080
bring you into contact with these things

808
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,080
that i knew that you were gonna like um

809
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,399
i have a giant beaver in the book it's a

810
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,559
beaver six feet high that's just it's

811
00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:37,200
there for no other reason then i know

812
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:39,919
you're gonna love it yeah

813
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,080
you gonna i mean if you don't spec a a

814
00:29:39,919 --> 00:29:44,080
dire kangaroo i will but please tell me

815
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,480
it's in please tell me it's on the it's

816
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,080
on the cards oh yeah it's it's one of

817
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,480
the ones i've actually finished i've got

818
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,320
an art order out for it uh

819
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,520
i've asked for three things i've asked

820
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:58,080
for a giant uh short faced

821
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,790
and i want it to be full-on cold [ __ ]

822
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,039
and a guy

823
00:29:58,790 --> 00:30:04,399
[Laughter]

824
00:30:01,039 --> 00:30:06,840
just a just a mean left hook yeah

825
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:09,760
shredded jacked up

826
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:12,000
yeah just a kangaroo punching a guy's

827
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,760
lights out yeah large beast unaligned

828
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,640
challenge rating two

829
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,279
i've just thought of a great rug pool

830
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,720
is having that jurassic park telling

831
00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:23,120
your players as the dm you've got a

832
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,600
glass of water it's rhythmically the

833
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,120
water is is shaking another place like

834
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,720
oh yeah yeah i know this we've seen this

835
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,399
trade a hundred times before and then

836
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,840
out through the bushes

837
00:30:30,399 --> 00:30:35,440
hops a

838
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,840
and they're expecting a t-rex no no

839
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,840
not today

840
00:30:38,799 --> 00:30:41,280
you're wrong

841
00:30:39,919 --> 00:30:43,600
this is way worse

842
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,630
[Laughter]

843
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,360
and it's angry

844
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:48,960
[Laughter]

845
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,799
oh great that's that's a free all the

846
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,919
listeners that's a freebie please take a

847
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:54,919
news use that in your campaign

848
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,159
[Music]

849
00:31:02,750 --> 00:31:08,799
[Music]

850
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,039
another thing i wanted to talk about

851
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:12,799
in regards to

852
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:14,320
building a dnd

853
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:16,399
campaign and you mentioned them earlier

854
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,720
on like extinction events extinction

855
00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:19,760
level events as hollywood would like to

856
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,519
call it

857
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,440
i think you mentioned we're at number

858
00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:25,440
six or something

859
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,840
yeah that's that's the idea that is

860
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:31,120
being put forth in the scientific

861
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,600
discourse now um i should say that uh

862
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,480
geologists recognize five based on their

863
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,000
work

864
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000
and then you know we're making the

865
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,080
argument that we are in the sixth

866
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,840
currently in it yeah yeah i hope it

867
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,080
won't be one of those things where

868
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,080
people look back and go oh yeah those

869
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,519
guys were like definitely in number six

870
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,039
and they just couldn't see it for

871
00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:51,360
whatever reason because that'll be sad

872
00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:52,240
i'd rather at least know we're in it

873
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,799
yeah

874
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,919
yeah me too

875
00:31:54,799 --> 00:32:00,320
kind of writing a book about it

876
00:31:57,919 --> 00:32:02,320
well i was gonna say like have you ever

877
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,880
dealt with or thought about those

878
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:08,799
extinction events or epochs in

879
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,480
a a campaign uh usually the trope is

880
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:11,600
there's gonna be one if you don't stop

881
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,120
it players

882
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,480
sometimes it's not even that big it's

883
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,840
it's just

884
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,440
you know the scope is a lot smaller but

885
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,760
i was just wondering on your take on

886
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,799
extension level events because maybe

887
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,399
there's a unique approach to it or kind

888
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:25,519
of those little things that people don't

889
00:32:24,399 --> 00:32:27,919
often think about yeah the end of the

890
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:30,399
world okay hollywood's taught me that

891
00:32:27,919 --> 00:32:32,720
it's a desolate wasteland and there's

892
00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:33,919
robots that stamp on skulls but like

893
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,080
there's probably a little bit more

894
00:32:33,919 --> 00:32:37,679
nuance to it than just

895
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,000
fallout new vegas

896
00:32:37,679 --> 00:32:42,399
right yeah that's really interesting i

897
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,960
haven't structured this book such that

898
00:32:42,399 --> 00:32:48,000
it's a campaign set in a

899
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,679
post-extinction event world so i'm i'd

900
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,440
be reaching to write this i think i

901
00:32:49,679 --> 00:32:53,760
think it'd be on the spot

902
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,519
but i will say that there is at least

903
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,799
one story

904
00:32:55,519 --> 00:32:59,039
let me let me tell you the thing i know

905
00:32:56,799 --> 00:33:00,720
i can tell you there is at least one

906
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:03,200
story of a creature that

907
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,440
survived one extinction event only to

908
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,360
die in the in this one

909
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,480
actually let me let me answer the

910
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,559
question that you're actually asking

911
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,240
which is how do you use this in a d

912
00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:14,320
campaign

913
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,440
i have at least one example of a stone

914
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,240
punk setting okay there's a book by

915
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,159
atlas games called plain gia which was

916
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,120
used a lot of the same monsters that i'm

917
00:33:22,159 --> 00:33:24,799
using

918
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,799
but built them as part of a setting that

919
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:28,720
was sort of pre-history where everything

920
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:30,799
was new and vital and you were sort of

921
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,440
living in the in the beginning the top

922
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:36,559
of the spiral that that tolkien pictured

923
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,679
um so you could go hard and just do it

924
00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:40,559
that way

925
00:33:37,679 --> 00:33:43,679
the tomb of annihilation adventure line

926
00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:46,080
in dnd owes a lot to that kind of work

927
00:33:43,679 --> 00:33:47,840
the jungles of chult are basically

928
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,200
the land before time

929
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,720
that's why they're filled with monsters

930
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,960
so i think the tools are out there for

931
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,960
you to do this already

932
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,919
as uh and sort of engage with with

933
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,440
extinction events as a narrative device

934
00:33:57,919 --> 00:34:01,519
yeah i'm just yeah this is this is what

935
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,200
i'm doing the show it's been

936
00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:05,120
a break from recording for a while and i

937
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,799
have missed it because it makes me all

938
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,800
giddy about thinking

939
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:10,720
because i am not even ignorant i never

940
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,399
you know it would be very cool to have a

941
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:14,560
i'm only thinking i'm only realizing now

942
00:34:12,399 --> 00:34:17,359
is that it would be cool to have

943
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,839
those archaeologists and geologists

944
00:34:17,359 --> 00:34:21,520
being and like digging up bones and then

945
00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:24,000
it just gradually being this slow

946
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,800
realization that a there was

947
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,440
an extinction event prior and b

948
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,679
much like we are and now perhaps there's

949
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,760
going to be another one soon and to have

950
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,839
that be the driving

951
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,079
force for the player characters to be

952
00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:39,839
like let's find out what it was that's

953
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,000
you know and you could you could still

954
00:34:39,839 --> 00:34:43,760
have your classic sword and board

955
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,320
fantasy of like well we've heard there's

956
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,639
some ruins that were old and maybe they

957
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,240
were pre the last event so won't you go

958
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,639
in there and creatures have moved in

959
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:54,800
yada yada fight your way to the end uh

960
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:57,440
but the reward is like yes there might

961
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,960
be some mechanical ward but the rule is

962
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,800
some ancient information that you then

963
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,880
take back to the university and they go

964
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,880
oh yeah this is this has got that last

965
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,200
bit of the cipher or that last bit of

966
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,560
translation that we needed to to work

967
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,839
out what's what's coming up next and

968
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,920
then you can kind of

969
00:35:09,839 --> 00:35:13,760
turn that campaign

970
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,800
into a well it's there's going to be

971
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,680
another

972
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,359
meteorite or climate shift or something

973
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,000
and how the and how the players can help

974
00:35:19,359 --> 00:35:23,920
to avoid that or perhaps depending on

975
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,839
your point of view and encourage it on

976
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,680
if they're part of their like life is a

977
00:35:25,839 --> 00:35:30,000
cycle and

978
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:32,560
rebirth and all that other stuff if you

979
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,720
subscribe to that kind of uh ideology

980
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,200
yeah yeah that'd be great and there's

981
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:39,040
precedent for it i think those caves

982
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,120
full of bare bones

983
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:44,079
would uh or bear bare bones

984
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,000
[Laughter]

985
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,920
got to give you a good place to start

986
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,079
yeah yeah for sure

987
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,000
and i i do i'm kind of in love with the

988
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:55,040
idea of

989
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,480
not having a bbeg like that doesn't have

990
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,200
to be a single

991
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,240
entity it can just be a force of nature

992
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,200
that is just

993
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:03,440
almost

994
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,359
unreasonable it's um you know

995
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,119
unforgiving there's not much you can do

996
00:36:05,359 --> 00:36:11,359
in some ways it is inevitable it's just

997
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:12,000
can you postpone it maybe for another

998
00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:13,440
that is yeah

999
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,359
cosmic horror

1000
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,960
uh and it's something i i toyed with

1001
00:36:15,359 --> 00:36:19,200
this for book of extinction too because

1002
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,640
i i thought about personifying

1003
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,320
extinction and then making that

1004
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,079
something that you could kill

1005
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,240
and i'm not sure i'm still not sure

1006
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:28,880
that's the best way to go about it if i

1007
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,839
did i would uh i would do something with

1008
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,839
the

1009
00:36:29,839 --> 00:36:34,240
kytrid fungus

1010
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:37,520
which is a a virulent strain of fungus

1011
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:39,200
that is worldwide leading amphibians and

1012
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,880
frogs to being

1013
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,800
the the group of animals with the

1014
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,880
dubious distinction of going extinct the

1015
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,960
most quickly oh

1016
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,040
yeah it's it it interferes with their

1017
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,640
ability to absorb moisture through their

1018
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,800
or absorb electrolytes through their

1019
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,880
skin and essentially gives them a heart

1020
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,560
attack and it's impossible to find it's

1021
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,560
impossible to stop

1022
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,960
at least as far as we know now and there

1023
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,079
are some very dedicated people working

1024
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,480
on it

1025
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:06,640
yeah if i were to personify extinction

1026
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,200
it would be in that line but i'm still

1027
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,880
not sure i'm gonna do it because i i

1028
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,640
think it would be

1029
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,720
more in keeping with what i'm trying to

1030
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,000
do to just give you the tools to grapple

1031
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:18,480
with this and let you come to your own

1032
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,040
answers and not have something as

1033
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,680
as fairy tale like as just being able to

1034
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,000
stab it with a sword no i i i would

1035
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:29,200
agree with that i think it would be very

1036
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,760
easy to like accidentally trivialize

1037
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,760
it in a way and then reduce it quite

1038
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,599
reductive to bring it this

1039
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,960
a very real issue into something which

1040
00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:39,350
is just like

1041
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,000
i'm an evil guy in my castle

1042
00:37:39,350 --> 00:37:43,760
[Music]

1043
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,440
and and then there's the the cognitive

1044
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:50,920
dissonance of like i i killed extinction

1045
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,920
i killed them

1046
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:57,440
[Laughter]

1047
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,119
yeah that'll be a tricky one

1048
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,839
and we're going to get

1049
00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:04,560
a real meta which i guess is saying

1050
00:38:01,839 --> 00:38:05,599
something considering the last 40 or so

1051
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,760
minutes

1052
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:09,920
and only because in my preparation for

1053
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,200
the episode we at the time of recording

1054
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,520
we are

1055
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,440
still pre um

1056
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,720
the new book uh monsters of the

1057
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:22,079
multiverse coming out which looking at

1058
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:23,119
my chosen online dnd platform of choice

1059
00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:24,960
actually but by the time this is

1060
00:38:23,119 --> 00:38:26,180
released it will be wizards branded so

1061
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,760
dearly beyond

1062
00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:30,400
[Laughter]

1063
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,480
safe and safe now they are

1064
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,440
basically deprecating

1065
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,640
or that is to say making extinct wink

1066
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,640
roll credits um

1067
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,240
uh two of the old books fellows guide to

1068
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,480
monsters and one kindness team of photos

1069
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:48,800
and their stat blocks within so my my

1070
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,680
thought process here was like in a way

1071
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,400
this

1072
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,000
incessant march of time is making

1073
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,200
content and monsters and in a way you

1074
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,800
could even fold this into your campaign

1075
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,880
like the monsters you might have used

1076
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,480
last session and now

1077
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,200
for all intents and purposes

1078
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,040
you know in in canon not a thing anymore

1079
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,560
those you know they don't encourage you

1080
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,040
to use those stat blocks and use new

1081
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,200
stat blocks so i just wanted like

1082
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:15,599
i know it's a slightly tenuous link but

1083
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,800
that's welcome to the show again um

1084
00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:18,560
no i think there's something there

1085
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,920
because what what

1086
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,599
i think the best comparison to make

1087
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,760
there would be the comparison between

1088
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:26,240
species i made the decision in writing

1089
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,920
book of extinction to use linnaeus's

1090
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:30,320
taxonomy for every creature i wrote

1091
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,160
about so genus species name in the case

1092
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,560
of the giant short-faced kangaroo it's

1093
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,160
procoptidon de la golia

1094
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,440
in the case of

1095
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:41,359
the tasmanian tiger it's thylacinous

1096
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,280
cyanocephalus

1097
00:39:41,359 --> 00:39:45,280
but that has introduced a layer of

1098
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,760
difficulty to this in that there's more

1099
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,320
than one giant ground sloth there is

1100
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,480
more than one heath hen

1101
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,760
which is you know an extinct bird from

1102
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,040
the northeast coast of of the

1103
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,320
us

1104
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,480
so i think in this case what we're

1105
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,680
looking at is maybe a deprecation of the

1106
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,200
species or maybe sort of a loss of

1107
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,040
i would think of it as a loss of

1108
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:10,240
biodiversity where

1109
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,000
members of the genus are being removed

1110
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,520
at the species level

1111
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,280
and we we do talk when we're looking at

1112
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,359
extinction events about whether that

1113
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,480
extinction happens at the species level

1114
00:40:17,359 --> 00:40:20,160
whether we're

1115
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,880
just losing different variations of the

1116
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,400
same thing or at the genus level

1117
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,440
in which case we're losing

1118
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,040
whole

1119
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,400
i don't want to say families but whole

1120
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:32,160
large groups of life propositions

1121
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,400
that were around before

1122
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,079
so yeah there's a weird parallel here

1123
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,800
and it's funny because i've still got

1124
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:39,280
the

1125
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,040
the search window open for dinosaurs and

1126
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,119
in a some beautiful

1127
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,440
twist of fate

1128
00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:46,800
the majority are marked now as

1129
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,119
legacy here

1130
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,480
which is really it's kind of like

1131
00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:53,040
oh it's like

1132
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,560
a grim humor to that so i think they get

1133
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,599
replaced with like kidding i think they

1134
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,599
get replaced with updated stat blocks

1135
00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:00,880
but we're doing some rebalancing but

1136
00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:02,960
yeah

1137
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,800
things that worked in the pleistocene do

1138
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,880
not work in the holocene

1139
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,880
things that worked in

1140
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,400
you know things that worked before

1141
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,160
the extinction event that is

1142
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,160
mordenkainen's

1143
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,240
uh more or rather monsters of the

1144
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,800
multiverse yes

1145
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,640
no longer work in the current edition or

1146
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,440
geological era it's like a oh it

1147
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,119
imitates life uh happening before my

1148
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,270
very eyes as we were recording this

1149
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:28,319
thing

1150
00:41:26,270 --> 00:41:30,240
[Laughter]

1151
00:41:28,319 --> 00:41:31,040
uh yeah that's great i'm really glad

1152
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,720
that

1153
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,079
these dinosaurs are marked as legacy for

1154
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,119
this content that i'm producing now i'm

1155
00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:36,960
very happy

1156
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:39,760
i've been able to do that

1157
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,520
oh no we're making them extinct again

1158
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,800
yeah yeah well they've already done it

1159
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,800
once guys come on yeah

1160
00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:47,599
and then um

1161
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,440
we're gonna we're gonna move away from

1162
00:41:47,599 --> 00:41:51,599
monsters just for a second before we we

1163
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,440
talk out the show because of course one

1164
00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:56,000
way to consider

1165
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,960
extinction in a in a dnd campaign would

1166
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,240
be

1167
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,520
you could

1168
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:04,160
describe as a tpk as in the players

1169
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,560
rather than the monsters uh or the the

1170
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,880
characters not the players god i'm not

1171
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,520
definitely not playing their characters

1172
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,839
um going extinct and yeah i just wanted

1173
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,119
to what again a bit like how

1174
00:42:13,839 --> 00:42:17,280
maybe you've got a unique take on how

1175
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:19,599
extinction events could be interpreted

1176
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,400
in your campaign in any given campaign

1177
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:25,280
uh maybe there's another take on

1178
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:27,280
a total party kill and how that might

1179
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,680
have ramifications

1180
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,760
that i haven't thought of i think at the

1181
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:36,000
level at which book of extinction

1182
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:38,240
operates a tpk would be

1183
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,870
not to sound callous

1184
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,119
minor

1185
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:42,560
[Laughter]

1186
00:42:41,119 --> 00:42:46,400
i don't think that

1187
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,599
it doesn't compare on the level of of an

1188
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,280
extinction event because we haven't

1189
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:50,880
reached species level and we certainly

1190
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,119
haven't reached genus level like there's

1191
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,880
going to be another tiefling warlock

1192
00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:56,880
there's going to be another half elf

1193
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,000
bard it's just going to happen i was

1194
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,920
just gonna say you've given me the back

1195
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,119
of the box quote which is

1196
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:05,839
lucas thinks tpk's a trivial or minor i

1197
00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:08,000
think so uh just to just uh just to be

1198
00:43:05,839 --> 00:43:10,560
the clickbait so yeah thank you

1199
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,800
oh great

1200
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,319
take that put that on a context and oh

1201
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,319
yeah let them come for me

1202
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,040
no but it's uh i think the point with

1203
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,599
extinction is that it is it is bigger

1204
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,920
than any one of us at this point and and

1205
00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:28,400
in a way that's that's very d and d as

1206
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,800
well like this is an asymmetrical

1207
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,680
heroic fantasy game in which strength

1208
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:37,280
comes through diversity and extinction

1209
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:39,280
events represent the loss of diversity

1210
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,720
whole life propositions or ways of

1211
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,040
looking at the world that we will never

1212
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:44,800
have access to again and i certainly

1213
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,200
don't mean to trivialize

1214
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:50,240
the idea that every person every player

1215
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,319
character represents a way of looking at

1216
00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:54,240
the world and a way of moving through it

1217
00:43:52,319 --> 00:43:56,400
and solving these challenges that is on

1218
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:59,440
its own incredibly valuable

1219
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:02,560
if you can start there and then imagine

1220
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:05,760
that we made extinct the very last

1221
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:08,640
tiefling warlock to ever be in the game

1222
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,480
then you would find i think the kind of

1223
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,599
impact that

1224
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,359
the things in the book are meant to have

1225
00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:16,880
yes thank you

1226
00:44:15,359 --> 00:44:18,000
is there uh

1227
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,640
anything else you want to talk about

1228
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,480
that we might not have got around to yet

1229
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,960
let me give you two reasons to be

1230
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,359
excited about this uh that are that are

1231
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,440
very much in the spirit of of d because

1232
00:44:27,359 --> 00:44:30,480
i want to tell you the two instances in

1233
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,560
which

1234
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,520
i had to do very little writing to

1235
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,599
translate the animal to the monster

1236
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,839
um the first is the passenger pigeon it

1237
00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:42,079
lived in flocks of

1238
00:44:39,839 --> 00:44:44,160
billions literal billions on the north

1239
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:46,640
american continent for those listening i

1240
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,920
am a shocked face i've got shocked you

1241
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,880
face right now because i was expecting

1242
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,720
like thousands and okay

1243
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,760
not a chance they would block out the

1244
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:57,040
sun for days at a time

1245
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,040
uh

1246
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,640
this is uh this is a creature whose life

1247
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,599
proposition was to basically have

1248
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,560
satellites everywhere they could know

1249
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:05,680
exactly

1250
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,319
in which

1251
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,760
chestnut forest or oak forest in the in

1252
00:45:08,319 --> 00:45:11,119
the americas

1253
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,720
mass fruiting was happening where there

1254
00:45:11,119 --> 00:45:15,040
were loads and loads of acorns to just

1255
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:18,240
get for free and they could then fly

1256
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,200
there immediately it's a phenomenal bird

1257
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,280
that was

1258
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,960
totally at odds with the way in which we

1259
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,920
live our lives now like we couldn't

1260
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,640
resurrect a biological storm and bring

1261
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,800
it back and have it co-exist with the

1262
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,640
level of population that's on that's in

1263
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,599
the united states now

1264
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,079
but

1265
00:45:33,599 --> 00:45:38,000
it is a perfect

1266
00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:41,119
reconstruction of what

1267
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:44,480
d d's swarm mechanic is trying to do

1268
00:45:41,119 --> 00:45:46,640
no single one of these animals

1269
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,640
represents the entire decision-making

1270
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,000
force of the swarm as a whole

1271
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,240
and uh

1272
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,760
one of the reasons they went extinct

1273
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:55,520
so suddenly was that they're only

1274
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,040
comfortable reproducing when they're

1275
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,000
surrounded by hundreds of their closest

1276
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,359
friends

1277
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,480
so oh

1278
00:45:59,359 --> 00:46:05,119
in a way yeah again

1279
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,920
in a way the passenger pigeon was what

1280
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:08,240
is

1281
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,800
a swarm it's the it's the only maybe the

1282
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:13,520
only swarm to have ever truly existed so

1283
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,200
writing that one was a slam dunk it's

1284
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:18,240
already in the book

1285
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:21,760
um the other example that that d gave me

1286
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:23,839
was of on death there is one creature in

1287
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,920
the book that did i didn't expect to be

1288
00:46:23,839 --> 00:46:28,160
at the top of the cr range and it's the

1289
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,359
perennian ibex it's a small mountain

1290
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,520
goat used to live in the mountains

1291
00:46:29,359 --> 00:46:33,200
between spain and france

1292
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,839
and it is the only

1293
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,200
animal to have to have gone extinct

1294
00:46:35,839 --> 00:46:39,760
twice

1295
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,359
wow the last perennial ibex was given

1296
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,800
the name celia

1297
00:46:41,359 --> 00:46:44,160
her movements were tracked closely

1298
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,599
enough to know that she was the last of

1299
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,000
her species

1300
00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:49,920
and bef one summer a sample of tissue

1301
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,920
was taken from her left ear the

1302
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,839
following summer she was found

1303
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,680
crushed to death under a fallen branch

1304
00:46:55,839 --> 00:46:59,680
sad and this is like the tragic moment

1305
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,400
but what happened uh

1306
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,640
the

1307
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,599
the research team was able to take that

1308
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,640
sample

1309
00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:09,119
and implant uh and and do some gene

1310
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:12,560
editing and implanting and

1311
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:14,440
clone a perennial ibex over the course

1312
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,720
of 10 years

1313
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,560
439 embryos were created from the

1314
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:20,960
original tissue sample

1315
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,359
of those only 57 were able to be

1316
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,880
implanted in a host

1317
00:47:23,359 --> 00:47:26,960
surrogate mother

1318
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,160
of those only seven resulted in

1319
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,040
pregnancies

1320
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,079
and of those only one resulted in a live

1321
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,800
birth

1322
00:47:32,079 --> 00:47:36,960
and that died after several minutes due

1323
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,720
to difficulties breathing from malformed

1324
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,440
lungs

1325
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:44,000
which to me

1326
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:46,000
is exactly what undeath looks like

1327
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,280
jeez yeah so

1328
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:52,480
i was given by history itself

1329
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,230
the story of an undead lich

1330
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,920
that happens to be a goat

1331
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:58,640
[Laughter]

1332
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:01,520
and uh very quickly it ranked its way

1333
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,440
all the way up to a cr-20 cr-22 if you

1334
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,839
encounter it in its layer

1335
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:09,280
so d

1336
00:48:04,839 --> 00:48:11,680
d uh d d just just gave me the way of

1337
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,680
talking about this uh in a way that's

1338
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,640
cool and interesting and useful to have

1339
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:20,079
a good time rather than inherent or

1340
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:22,079
rather than only tragic and depressing

1341
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:23,920
um and i want you to be able to put this

1342
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:25,760
in your game and talk about it and and

1343
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,839
interact with these stories and tell

1344
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:30,000
them in a way that that's able to get at

1345
00:48:27,839 --> 00:48:32,960
the details and sticks in your mind in

1346
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:36,800
the way only d's real time storytelling

1347
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:38,880
can so i was very grateful to see and i

1348
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,400
was i'm really excited to continue doing

1349
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,440
this work for the other

1350
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:46,160
100 or so monsters on my list to be able

1351
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,640
to give people a way of of talking about

1352
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,160
extinction of experiencing it of staying

1353
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,680
with the trouble

1354
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:55,520
that doesn't drive them to despair um

1355
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,800
yeah that's such

1356
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,839
a great

1357
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:02,000
thing i've lost the superlatives to

1358
00:48:59,839 --> 00:49:03,839
describe uh i'm just because all i'm

1359
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,319
thinking of is like

1360
00:49:03,839 --> 00:49:07,760
any given dnd game and there's all

1361
00:49:06,319 --> 00:49:10,240
players they're happy having a fun time

1362
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,920
having a fight with some bum with some

1363
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:13,520
with some creatures

1364
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,800
and that's where we learn the session

1365
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,920
the dm stands up and says hey guys you

1366
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,240
know those creatures you were just

1367
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,000
fighting they're actually based on

1368
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:23,520
this and here's the cool story about how

1369
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,040
we tried to clone this extinct creek

1370
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,880
this is this extinct goat and if you

1371
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,119
want to find out more go and do some

1372
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,520
research and then we'll be like that's a

1373
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:32,640
sick story and i want to learn more and

1374
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,839
it's such a

1375
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,400
unique

1376
00:49:33,839 --> 00:49:38,640
and interesting way to to have those

1377
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,800
experiences as you've just said yeah or

1378
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,400
better yet turn it to the other page

1379
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,760
like i want you to have this book in

1380
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,119
your hand and turn it around and be like

1381
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,340
yeah that thing you just bought this is

1382
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:48,000
it her name was celia

1383
00:49:46,340 --> 00:49:49,839
[Laughter]

1384
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,160
and this is like i've written the story

1385
00:49:49,839 --> 00:49:55,520
for you i want you to hear this

1386
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,880
amazing amazing uh yeah so wow this is

1387
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,760
why i love having

1388
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,839
you on the show is is to to to elevate

1389
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,920
thinking critically from just how do you

1390
00:50:01,839 --> 00:50:05,780
feel about hit dice well i could take

1391
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,359
him or leave him really to

1392
00:50:05,780 --> 00:50:08,800
[Laughter]

1393
00:50:07,359 --> 00:50:11,440
you know do you roll for stats or not

1394
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,960
like to to another a

1395
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,640
i won't say another level uh but another

1396
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,960
dimension different a different uh point

1397
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,720
of view uh which is which is fantastic

1398
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,240
well thanks dan that's that's really

1399
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:22,240
encouraging i'm glad it's working for

1400
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,599
you yeah absolutely that's what i'm here

1401
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,119
to do

1402
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:28,480
uh is there well is there anything you

1403
00:50:25,119 --> 00:50:30,000
would like to uh promote or in any way

1404
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,040
other people can can support you in this

1405
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,200
endeavor yeah so book of extinction is

1406
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,920
a part of it is out right now you can go

1407
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,559
and get it at

1408
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,800
cintilla.studio

1409
00:50:38,559 --> 00:50:44,079
extinction it's also on drive through

1410
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:46,400
rpg and the may chan press website

1411
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:48,400
you can have that preview as a pay what

1412
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,760
you want download and anything that you

1413
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,920
pay for it

1414
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,400
i'm not going to keep i'm partnering

1415
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,160
with the center for biological diversity

1416
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,880
which is an advocacy organization based

1417
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:01,359
in the u.s that advocates for

1418
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,880
endangered species and habitats

1419
00:51:01,359 --> 00:51:04,000
and everything that we raise through the

1420
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,480
preview up until the time of the

1421
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:08,640
kickstarter is going to go to them 100

1422
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,800
and they're going to turn that around uh

1423
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,440
and use that in their work again i think

1424
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:16,079
the best antidote for despair is action

1425
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,599
i didn't want to give you things that uh

1426
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:19,119
things that challenge your hope and

1427
00:51:17,599 --> 00:51:21,280
things that challenge your sense of

1428
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:22,640
tragedy without giving you a way to give

1429
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,400
directly into it so that's what the

1430
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,640
preview is meant to do

1431
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,359
it comes with the thylacine the great

1432
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,960
awk and the passenger pigeon

1433
00:51:29,359 --> 00:51:32,400
as we've talked about and you can put

1434
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,440
those in your game right now and the

1435
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:37,440
full book is coming to kickstarter oh

1436
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,359
okay cool well perhaps i'll have to have

1437
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,440
you on at that time again and then we

1438
00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:43,359
can i think it'll be a good time yeah

1439
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:46,400
i'd love to drop in and give the wrap up

1440
00:51:43,359 --> 00:51:48,319
uh by then i will have god help me

1441
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,520
finish a hundred of these monsters and

1442
00:51:48,319 --> 00:51:51,760
then i'll be able to tell you like how

1443
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,920
did it go and how much did we how much

1444
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,920
were we able to donate yeah and what did

1445
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,760
people actually really enjoy about this

1446
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,119
piece so yeah i'd love to come back if

1447
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,839
you'll have me yeah

1448
00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:03,119
absolutely so yes as as usual all the

1449
00:52:01,839 --> 00:52:05,760
links will be in the episode description

1450
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:07,200
i would very very much encourage lucas

1451
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,640
is exceptionally hardworking and

1452
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,800
exceptionally knowledgeable so please go

1453
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,480
and check out the stuff and even more so

1454
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,960
it's all for a good cause so like why

1455
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,559
would you not

1456
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,720
so the the only thing that's have to say

1457
00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:20,640
for me is one final thank you so much

1458
00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:23,200
for joining us today thank you for

1459
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,720
having me it's always a pleasure

1460
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,800
really glad to be here and i'm really

1461
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,880
glad of being been able to take the time

1462
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,200
to talk through this uh in a long form

1463
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,040
way it's it's a lot to unpack and thanks

1464
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,559
for being a good audience about it no

1465
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,599
horace wants to give me some stuff to

1466
00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:37,920
think about

1467
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:39,280
oh good perfect see i've provided some

1468
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,480
value as well which makes which made my

1469
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,960
day

1470
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,920
thank you to everyone for listening at

1471
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:44,960
home

1472
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,040
please

1473
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,040
uh review

1474
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,720
like and share if you like what you've

1475
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,200
heard today you can go and check out our

1476
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:55,520
monster episode which i'll link in the

1477
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,359
description which we covered a whole

1478
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,720
different side different as i said at

1479
00:52:57,359 --> 00:53:00,400
the start of the show the other side of

1480
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:01,599
the same coin so if you liked today's

1481
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,960
content please go and check that one out

1482
00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:07,359
that was also very very good otherwise

1483
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,960
thank you all for listening and good

1484
00:53:07,359 --> 00:53:10,559
night

1485
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,520
and now it's time for the patreon shout

1486
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:14,720
outs

1487
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:17,599
thank you to robert hartley dm for viva

1488
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:19,680
la dirt league and writer on the dnd the

1489
00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:21,280
logic web series

1490
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:24,079
i would encourage everybody to check him

1491
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:25,040
out at robert hartley gm on twitter and

1492
00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:27,280
twitch

1493
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,760
thank you to optional rule a two-time

1494
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:32,559
guest of the show and a very insightful

1495
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,839
and knowledgeable source of information

1496
00:53:32,559 --> 00:53:36,839
please check them out at

1497
00:53:33,839 --> 00:53:36,839
www.optionall.com

1498
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,559
huge huge huge thank you to a great

1499
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:45,040
friend of the show matthew perkins who's

1500
00:53:42,559 --> 00:53:47,359
out there making hilarious and

1501
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:49,119
educational dungeons and dragons content

1502
00:53:47,359 --> 00:53:50,880
please go and check out his stuff at

1503
00:53:49,119 --> 00:53:53,280
matthewperkins.net where you can find

1504
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,880
links to all of his socials and all of

1505
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,559
his content including his own patreon

1506
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,319
which i would very much encourage you to

1507
00:53:56,559 --> 00:54:01,200
check out

1508
00:53:58,319 --> 00:54:03,280
thank you to matt street at mpstreet88

1509
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,800
on twitter for supporting the show if

1510
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,400
you need support running your personal

1511
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:09,599
or business schedule head to

1512
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,359
virtualtimehustle.com or on instagram to

1513
00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:13,440
make that difference between should do

1514
00:54:11,359 --> 00:54:15,200
and done boss it better with support

1515
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:17,520
from cat who will help you get back that

1516
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,960
essential time you've been searching for

1517
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,880
if you would like to support what we do

1518
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:23,599
and get four shout outs a month head

1519
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,119
over to patreon.com thinking critically

1520
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:29,080
or you can just buy me a coffee at

1521
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:36,100
kofi.com thinking critically

1522
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:56,319
[Music]

 

Lucas Zellers Profile Photo

Lucas Zellers

Monster journalist

Lucas is a writer, tabletop game designer, and podcaster working at the intersection of ecology and storytelling. He's a Platinum-best selling author on the DM's Guild, writer for Mage Hand Press, and host of the Making a Monster podcast. You can read about his work and creativity as an ecosystem at Scintilla.Studio.