Influence

0:00
Welcome thinkers to season five Episode 5 of Thinking Critically at D&D Discussion.

Not much news this week.

The only thing left to say is I've officially begun deeming the Dungeons Dyson Dudes actual Play podcast that I was a player on for the last couple of years.

0:16
And we've literally just finished session zero and we're about to dive into session one this coming Sunday the 8th of October.

So tune into DND Pod on all socials and Twitch and YouTube and that to watch me and put some of this practise I've learned from thinking critically into a live situation rather than it just being me blabbering all day.

0:39
So yeah, check me out gaming and that's it, as usual for liminal socials and a shout out to all my fantastic listeners.

Love you guys.

Thank you so much for tuning in every episode.

Otherwise, let's get on with the show.

1:13
And today I'm rejoined by Mikey, who's been on a previous episode Generations Thank you ever so much for coming back on the show.

Mikey, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Hey, alright mate, thank you for having me back.

Yes, my name is Mike.

I recently did the Generations podcast with my two brothers and my dad and Vanilla obviously, and we were having a a really cool chat after that.

1:37
And so well, what about influence?

Kind of was a part of that other podcast that we did, and we thought we'd come back for another chin wag.

Yes.

And it's my pleasure to welcome you back on the show.

As always, it's always a pleasure to have guests who want to come back that that always helps.

1:53
So yes, talking of today's topic is influence.

So what does that mean to you and the DVD and wider TTRPG framework?

It's a very good question and I knew that you'd ask it, so I thought about the best way to answer and I think.

To me, influence is going to be described in the IT.

2:13
It's things that we subconsciously or consciously cultivate.

And.

Then kind of in turn comes out right so.

Good and bad influence.

Sometimes you pick it, sometimes you don't.

So a subconscious influence would have been the playing with my family and my dad and my granddad and things like that.

2:34
Again, subconscious good.

But it was cultivated over time.

And then there's the conscious.

I think it's perhaps the stories that you read or the other forms of art medium that you take in, you know, lover of video games, I Am, and the Tolkien books and other stories and things like that, that.

2:56
That's what I believe.

Influence.

Comes down to not just the things that you witness, but the things that you choose to cultivate.

Because there are a lot of things that we experience day-to-day.

But in in specific terms of influence, I think that there's there's a.

An extra step that goes there and it's the stuff that you take on.

3:15
Do or do you think, do you think that that's kind of accurate in for you?

Well, absolutely.

And as is pretty much the case with every episode of the show, when I was thinking on the drive home from work today about what I would talk about, I was like what influence did the player characters have on the world's like such a.

3:34
Of course, yeah, completely different vector.

So maybe maybe we'll look back round to that later.

But not the one thing I wanted to pick up on with what you said there is, and it said all the time in kind of world building circles and writing circles, is that like rarely is anything ever new.

3:49
You always, as you said, subconsciously influenced by stuff.

Which is why when you're building in DND campaign plagiarism is totally fine, right?

Because because basically it's gonna happen whether you like it or not it's it's what I've found and yes a couple of my most God that sounds arrogant my most popular arcs that I've done.

4:09
The ones that the players have responded to most favourably.

Yeah we're we're heavily inspired by video games and and specific sci-fi kind of things and pulled in and picked figurehead elements from from those bits and bobs and re mush them in a fantasy setting.

4:26
So also for me, as you said, video games is is a big a big thing for me too and obviously D is closer to video games than it is a passive form of entertainment.

So I think for me it's I I naturally am influenced more from that background and also I don't read as much as I should so.

4:44
Right now, I like.

I like that you said that, Yes.

And I'm also a musician too.

And that's the old adage there that, you know, it's very hard to be completely truthfully original.

You know, the other music that you listen to inspires you.

5:00
Fans, artists, songs, etc.

I think that translates perfectly into what we're talking about.

Hmm.

So I don't really like talking about it.

I don't really follow any of them or I'm going to sound very holier than thou.

But in terms of like there's a couple of big DMS at the moment, SO11 thought I had was obviously for newer DMS coming into the scene, you're going to look to quote, unquote experts and pull bits from how they perform.

5:29
Do you think you've been influenced by any of those figureheads, any of those?

Those big hitters, or both?

I guess as a DM and as a player?

Or it has, as we've discussed in the Generations episode more.

Has that been a more familiar thing first and foremost?

5:47
It definitely is familial.

I can only think of one name that is Matt Mercer, right?

He has appeared to transcend space and time and and populate so many areas of culture in terms of the games and stuff like that.

6:03
So yes, in almost entirely I I like.

Seeing what other people do, and I like when I catch it, I think I expressed in generations that it's not something that really lights my fire.

But that's not to say that it's not without that because there are cool things that I will see.

6:22
And just to spin on your your your question, it's not necessarily the figureheads or anything like that, but there are definitely like places on social media that I will find really cool inspiration for a character or a setting or a story.

So maybe you could argue that that's it.

6:38
You know where where I really get the inspiration from and the influence from other people like Ohh for your next idea, Try it.

You know, I I wish I was.

Able to recall some names, but they they have really cool ideas that influences me and I I've got to look a little book of notes and in my, you know, the back pocket of my brain where I go, oh, I want to do a game about that one thing that did influence me, The very last game that I played with my friends and family when I visited England back.

7:12
Christmas 2021, we played a game.

And it was an offshoot.

It was set in the same homebrew world that we've always been, but a few 100 years in the future.

And the real world kind of influenced me.

I said it.

At the time of a mysterious illness, I was gonna say, I should say when that time, that date.

7:34
You mentioned that, yeah, that's interesting.

Time to be flying around the.

World, right?

Yeah, Yeah, I did.

I put it there.

And there were a lot of tensions politically, culturally.

I included some challenges between human races and people have common tongue and like Orks that tied in actually prior to the whole date thing.

7:58
They definitely had Aux as they weren't a player character.

Half Hawks, I they weren't really a thing.

No one played them.

It just kind of got wrote into our law that it was more Tolkienesque, right, than the Hawks were kind of bad guys.

But revisiting it, the Orks are trying to come into society.

8:14
But there was like, ohh, you're half work.

You're other like derogatory words.

Like I I think things like that, right.

And the people around the table were like, Oh yeah, this is it.

And there was kind of a part of them.

We we say the players.

Personalities going to characters that they play and, and for me as a DM, the things that go into my world are obviously what we're discussing influence and the real world was definitely an influence there.

8:42
It was quite cool trying to apply a little bit of the real world things that were going on because whenever you're playing a game.

You're always kind of just taking a gamble that your players are gonna invest that they're going to buy in, right?

Your your job as the DM is to create that environment which people want to engage with.

9:01
But a kind of an offshoot of the real world.

It kind of just ran itself, you know, short exposition.

We started off.

Ohh, you're on a cart and you are out travelling looking for this artefact.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, rhubarb, rhubarb.

9:17
Classic thing.

But when they got to the town.

They had to go through a screening procedure.

They had to be checked, right.

They had to be checked that they weren't infected or contagious and they had spent time in isolation in a prison.

So and all the like the whole table just bought into it.

9:33
They they knew from the real world.

Ohh yeah, got to take, you know, your five days.

Got to make sure that you're not like it was different if I did that before, the whole pandemic thing.

It probably would have had a different flavour.

9:50
I might not have known how to DM it in the same way I might have been taking these guesses.

Ohh, this is what I think people would have done to, you know, look after people's health and stuff like that.

But I had a a real world basis, so yes, definitely influenced by the real world there.

I absolutely agree.

10:06
And that's absolutely a hardcore truth for the macro, like things like a worldwide pandemic all the way down to the micro.

Like I burnt my toast this morning and that will seep its way into like an NPC ruins their breakfast or something like that.

But I I totally love how that's a relatively unique element of TTRPG's.

10:27
Is that way to and and the power that the DM has to fold in their real world for everybody and and bigger and small things even.

Yeah, even stupid things like birthdays and stuff like Forgotten Realms, Just birthdays exist in forgotten ones tonight.

Maybe, maybe not.

10:42
But it's cool to have this.

The people do count the years.

So yeah, it's it's cool.

The real world have that kind of immediate influence on the game.

It's not as if because now we're getting films and TV shows that are in typically adversely affected by the real world.

11:01
Pandemic because no one was working or they couldn't shoot scenes properly and blah blah blah and that's but that's like a four or five year lag.

Whereas for D&D and other TTRPG you're getting it, you're living it and it's influencing your game at the table that night, which is which is really cool.

11:16
Like you don't, you don't, you don't get that weird kind of self propagating cycle of like it's happening.

I'm experiencing again through like a different lens and processing it that way to like it's now impacting my day-to-day life and.

Right, Definitely.

Yeah.

No it it is.

11:33
When we sort of take in those external factors and.

Rather than just regurgitate them because the example I gave was pretty like on on the nose, right.

But the influence and something that I'm trying to get at is that you mix it with your own ideas and thoughts, right?

11:58
So you can have something that's basically, yeah, well, pandemic, real world pandemic, tabletop, you know, DND.

But then like you said, the birthdays and stuff like that.

And.

I I think that when you have your own ideas, so the birthday is like, there was one where it was like instead of counting birthdays, we used to count like winters.

12:18
Ohh, it's his fifth winter he's turning.

You know, we had a little barbarian clan that on the 16th winter you would go out and go on the hunt, you know, things like that.

And that was a mix of, I didn't really come up with that idea myself.

That was the birthday idea, as you mentioned.

12:35
Yeah.

But then, like I was thinking of the films that I'd seen and the old books.

And the way that they described it and other artists, renditions and interpretations, I also came along something you're talking about people that are influenced in modern production and things like that.

12:52
Before.

Before I was aware of things like the critical role in in a lot of social media stuff.

I had a very good friend of mine that we used to game at his house when we were 1718.

A lot of us around the table, that was the games that, you know, my brother was saying we started and he met his wife and things like that.

13:09
I was the DM for a lot of it, and then we switched.

And my friend, if he's watching Kieran.

This is about you.

Hello Kieran.

I haven't seen him in a very long time.

I hope he's doing well.

The thing that I got from him, like he influenced me.

So he said something completely on the head.

13:26
I had the low fantasy, my own world thing.

He did that own world thing, but he kind of said it with a bit more of a steampunk he vibe.

It was like steampunk meets Avatar Last Airbender.

Awesome.

Very cool.

Like Legend Decora almost.

Which is right, the sequel to.

13:42
Avatar when they go trains and cars and all sorts.

I'm less familiar but.

Yeah, I think, yeah, you're you're on the money there and and that was his thing and he influenced me.

What he would do actually, is he got quite cinematic.

I remember very vividly and I enjoyed it a lot.

13:57
There was a part where our village got invaded and attacked and we were still young at the time.

We were kind of all monks, right?

That was kind of the premise of the story, and he created a cinematic moment where he used music off of his computer, his laptop, and he used other things like sound effects and creating a visual thing where it's like you're running through here and just make a quick roll quick.

14:25
And my dad said about, you know, the quick speed gaming stuff.

You know, you kind of put all that together.

There's no one direct influence in this scenario, but it'll all LED into what?

I now do because I take Kieran's idea of using the sound and the music.

14:45
I use my dad's idea of the speed gaming stuff, and that then formulates my style.

And I suppose what I'm circling around to is that there's no one whatever X is example A is made-up of. 234 different things a lot of the time, yeah, right.

15:05
Yeah.

And then combined with my taste and what I do, which is the low fantasy, really hardcore couple hits, you're dead.

You know, like that tension.

I like a lot of tension in in what I play and influence.

I'm going along.

The idea of movies and I really love.

15:25
Small cast.

Very minimal horror movies.

Think like The Thing and the first Alien movie.

Yeah, yeah, You know, there's not much song and dance.

There's a lot of.

Just things doing an existing Have you seen Moon?

15:41
I'm afraid not.

I'm afraid not.

What's my favourite film of all time?

Duncan Jones, Sam Rockwell.

In In Space?

OK, pretty much like 3 actors and things just happen.

So.

Yeah, OK.

I've got a list.

I've got some other things.

Me and my friend, we've got a movie list, and that is going on mine.

15:57
Thank you.

Right.

But that comes into my storytelling.

And as we were saying in the Generations podcast with my dad, sometimes we don't roll dice.

Sometimes we just interact with one another on the opposite side of a table and kind of work this story out and that happens with me.

16:16
I like the the tension, something building and it's it's more so the the the players create the story from what they are doing and what they decide and the way that they interact.

For me it's a it's a story building platform.

16:35
I could come up with an idea.

I have lots of ideas and.

That all sounds really good on paper.

But my style, thanks to the influences that I've had over the years, doing very little and having these.

16:51
Minimal sessions.

You know, we all used to know when it was going to happen.

Like the week before.

A big battle.

Yeah, you know, we know old guys.

It's the big one next week, right?

But sometimes after that or whatever, there's just.

Licking your wounds?

17:06
Yeah.

Tending to things.

You know how it is, right?

And all of the things that I'm talking about that you know, Alien and the thing and my dad's playing, it all just comes into my style of playing.

And some people will think that's slow, some people will think that's boring, but for the players that I work with and for me it's awesome.

17:27
So that's definitely a big influence, those types of movies that I enjoy and.

You know, video games, we talked about video games, yeah.

And you know, my brother was very brilliantly explaining how those bringing a new generation and things like that.

But video games with great stories are my thing.

17:46
My favourite games of all time have great stories.

Well, I'm going to, I'm a video gamer at heart.

I'm going to put you on the spot now and ask like you can't say that and then not tell me what they are, so.

OK, number one is probably Metal Gear Solid.

The first Metal Gear Solid is you made a lot of very happy now, so yeah.

18:02
First melt the solid is is, is fantastic.

We're still on games, right?

Yeah, yeah, I am on the spot.

Really am.

Ohh yeah, bastard.

I just wanna say Metal Gear Solid 2.

Great one.

18:19
That's probably my.

Favourite 3 Metal Gear Solid three is also really good.

I I recently like.

Goes to Sashima.

Yeah, pick that up.

I quite enjoyed that.

I haven't completed it, but I'm enjoying it.

I like that the stories happening.

18:36
I've also been a fan of games that have very little story.

I'm a big Dark Souls fan and the Bloodborne stuff.

Yeah, Bloodborne might be.

The best.

For me, I mean, I I love the original Dark Souls.

And you know, the stories that you pick up there, they're not rammed down your throat.

18:53
Hmm.

And you know, Artorius, things like that.

You know, you just find it out and it and it's cool.

And that comes off to me.

But the flip side is like Metal Gear Solid.

There's so much stuff.

Cut scenes, yeah, you know, But I like that as well.

19:12
I like.

How interesting things can get.

Sometimes the best stories are simple and other times they have got so many threads.

I think it's execution.

It's execution right?

Because you can have very complicated stories that are a bit pants.

19:30
Hmm, you know that that I think you you've really, you've really hit the nail on the head there and it is an art more than a science.

I always say that in terms of running a game and Dming and also being a player, but Dming that stick with that for now and building out the platform for the story to happen on.

19:46
Yes, yes is way more an art than it is a science in that it does take a buttload of experience and you need to learn from your mistakes and be like ohh my players didn't do that or didn't like that or that didn't go you.

Know how I imagined it would because of some weird thing that I hadn't accounted for and and this that and you start to build that instinctive how when you should move step forward.

20:10
When you should step back.

When you should push someone else out or pull someone else in and and so on and so on and that with with that in mind you can do any kind of stories influenced by any kind of medium or you know of any complexity is once you start to build that personal instinct to you can do your linear.

20:28
Towns being attacked Short three Clue, mystery bish, bash Bosh.

There's the the culprits.

Sort them out versus a complete noir.

Wheels within wheels, machinations within machinations, the the the police chiefs the enemy.

But he's actually a double agent.

20:43
You know you could do all of that but it is really how it comes down to that moment by moment table play of make me a role or yes you do see that or I'm improvising and I make up this new NPC and somehow fold it in right?

Definitely.

I I just wanted to add a second.

21:00
Don't want birthdays and stuff.

And I think me using that as an example was influenced because I by the real well, because recently I'm saying all this Forgotten Realms celebrate birthdays.

Humans in the real world don't even celebrate birthdays the same way because until recently S Koreans had like 3 government ages because they count birth.

21:20
They count your age in three separate ways depending on which kind of branch of the government you're working in.

And then recently got rid of 1 because everyone was like this is 1, this is too, too many.

Hey, it was something that they they used the Western style of, you know, you start at zero and then your birthday is at 365 days later.

21:38
They also have one where you start at one which I know some places in Europe at least used to have as well.

So you're the 1st birthday you experience, you're actually turning 2 array start at one kind of thing and then they also have one where you issue a number of Christmas, so a number of New Years as well.

21:54
So I think they've gotten rid of one of those systems.

So there you go, That's, I think that's been knocking around at the back somewhere and that's why.

No, that's really.

That's that's great.

I I'd love to leapfrog off of that where where we exist in the world influences us.

22:10
Hmm, massively.

Being in California and hearing how people talk and discuss and a lot of the big stuff that's out there, a lot of it is American.

Look at me.

You know the red box Gary guy?

Yeah, it's American, right?

It's not a British game.

It's.

It is an American game.

Yeah.

22:25
But that low fantasy thing that I'm describing, I have a lot of Celtic influence.

I have a lot of Anglo.

You know the Scandinavian influence?

Yeah, things like that.

That might be more prevalent for me than it is someone over here, right?

Hmm.

22:41
But Speaking of that, I've got interested.

When I was world building, I developed different parts of the map and I thought about different parts of.

Earth And I thought, ohh, something near the equator's got to be warmer and hotter and have these different approaches.

22:57
And I thought, what were the Dragons look like there?

Would they be different?

So I also thought of like packed to the Caribbean, right I I wanted my own parts of the Caribbean thing, which Glen actually took on the DM4.

So me and Glen, you spend a lot of time just in our formative years, actually, rather than playing, just like sitting with books, chatting like we we'd be out in the back, you know, with a beer and a cigarette, just like, oh, what do you think of this idea?

23:19
So yeah, that's a cool idea.

Yeah, Then we writing things.

Now that was as much joy to me as actually playing.

Just like, it's like the must the brain muscles working, right.

So we come up with cool ideas.

That's an influence.

We influence each other.

He influenced me one of the parts of my world.

23:36
We didn't officially implement it but I kind of without, I don't know, no spoilers.

But Glenn's also a bit of a writer as well.

If you ever have another conversation with him, he's a writer and and his world that he created in his high fantasy stuff, I kind of.

23:53
Wanted that.

On a part of my map too.

And you know, eventually it was all going to become very meta and like ohh his world and my work, you know, I'm canonically, canonically, whatever.

But we were younger at the time and that happened and back to parts of the Caribbean thing.

It was actually one of the times where he came at DM and I became a player and my influence.

24:14
From other mediums like.

I had to step back because I was a DM 1st, and then I had to let him be a DM as a player.

I tried not to be irritating.

Because I definitely get quite into my character as well, and.

24:34
He was the Jack Sparrow meets one of the like, The Three Musketeers.

Young.

Yeah, yeah, no, d'artagnan, d'artagnan, yeah, he was Jack D'artagnan Sparrow thing.

And I just went off.

I completely embellished him.

24:50
But that came from seeing all these other characters that I thought were quite.

Entertaining on the screen, if you like.

Or on a book like that.

Other people's depictions of them.

Influenced my disposition, right?

25:06
So whether I liked it or not, on, on, on the show or TV, whatever.

And then I wanted to do something like that.

The influence on my characters obviously familial as we explained in Generations.

The way that, you know, I would play with my family, but I also play with my friends and.

25:23
Definitely like having something anchoring my character down and that comes from the storytelling.

My favourite characters are the ones that we get to play those big stories.

Hmm.

Yeah, I can't explain it any other way, right?

25:40
I'd like to throw in a big character and like.

Just go and do things, but it doesn't satiate me in the slightest.

I have to have something that I can build just as a DM.

Maybe that influences my play.

25:56
Maybe it's.

A bit of the real world, bit of the, the medium, bit of the the movies, the books.

And it's also my DM style.

My DM style influences my playing because I know the mechanics.

Yes, you know, you know what I mean.

Do you ever feel like that because you flick between the two, right?

Do you feel like?

26:13
Because you know what it's like to be the other it changes you.

Or do you have like two different hats that you just put on and off?

No, it is one big hat figure to the brim.

Yeah, the match my big head.

Uh yeah.

26:28
I did have a fear at one point that I would become, it would ruin it for me, having that kind of intimate knowledge of behind the the screen.

But the most important thing is that everyone's having fun, and in fact it actually increases that because I have that intuition of I know what the DM is trying to do.

26:48
Here, yeah, I know that.

I know they're suggesting a thing or really wants X to happen or I know he's making us roll but it it's not really important so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna like what's behind the door what's behind the doors behind the door.

When I know because I kind of know things behind that I'm not gonna labour it too much and it's just going to waste time at the table kind of thing.

27:06
It's just that it's just that that intuition again of like I kind of see what it's going for so I'm going to lean into it and either help or or not Or if we're if we're kind of pointless for us to be stuck and lost then I'll be like ohh I'll try this other thing.

I'll try this other thing.

If the point is to like the you know the DMS like ohh God panicking because stuff's taking too long then I'll be a bit more proactive and like here's the solution let's yeah let's go ahead And that just brings the table you know God this is my the arrogance episode.

27:35
But it it just I I found that having that lunch hasn't really taken anything away from me.

I never feel like shortchanged of like well I don't what's happening next.

But it it just it was nice to be able to help basically because I've sat in that chair and been in that position several times myself desperate for help.

27:52
So I know.

That it's, yes, you're right.

You're absolutely right.

I quite like the way that you said.

That actually is really, really good cause.

After you said it, like all the lights went on in my circuit board.

And not only do I do it, although I can be a bit of a pain as a player because, you know, depending on the character, but yes, I also see around it.

28:14
My granddad did that sometimes us young bloods would be fussing over all of the stuff and my granddad would be sitting there, pipe in hand.

He had a pipe, you know, like just sitting there with a beer and a pipe and he'd be watching us all.

28:31
We're trying to do this.

And he's like the old was like, ohh, suppose I'll help you know, he says why don't we do this and we'll go ohh.

Yeah, you know, yeah, he had like that sixth sense.

28:46
But no, it was because he was brilliant at what he did on both sides of the screen and and you know, knew when to sit back, knew when to step.

Yeah, no, you you said that in such a way that it's exactly how I remember experiencing it.

29:02
Ohh.

Good.

Yeah, no, you're right, it is.

And when I do the same thing, you know, obviously still learning, not perfect.

But yeah, sometimes I do like my my characters.

My, my players to flail about in madness and go, yeah, of course it's still escapism at end of the day, it's just perfect.

29:20
So yeah, everything I want to jump on.

You said that you and Glenn would sit outside and just bounce ideas off of each other.

29:37
I also, I my my DM confidant back with Jamie.

He's been a guest on the show several times way back in season one.

And we'd spend like an hour or so on the phone just being like, here's what I've got planned, maybe coming up in my campaign, let me just run it by you.

We know.

29:52
How does that sound?

Ohh.

That would be really cool if this happened.

Ohh.

You're gonna do that.

Have you have you thought about this Ohh shit?

Yeah.

No, I didn't think about that.

Let me let me try and work out.

And it was it's it.

I was grinning like an idiot for those watching the video version because because I was thinking that's precisely what me and Jamie do and and that is a huge influence, you know, not even just on the the world imposing its activities on me.

30:18
It's your mate.

Go and have you thought about this?

Yeah.

Definitely.

Couldn't agree more.

And.

And like you say it, it's a sum of its parts, right?

Or you have all these things and.

And as I said at the beginning, sometimes it's a conscious influence and other times it's a unconscious subconscious influence.

30:41
Yes.

And like you say, you don't really know, maybe until someone points something out or whatever.

And you know, what about the direction that you steer your games?

That's influenced by the feeling around the table, the reception, right?

Sometimes, as you said, it's an art rather than a science, right?

31:00
Kind of guiding it along.

That's a perfect expression, by the way.

I love that.

And you then take that the next step forward and let's it's not only what you do game to game, but it's kind of like what you think that you might want later on and and how much do you balance that with what you want and what the players want and stuff like that.

31:19
And I think, yeah, no, I think the immediate reaction.

And how people talk about it.

Does it influence you at the table?

Does it influence later conversations?

Do people bring it up?

You mentioned something about DM and going mistakes and how that influenced you and to to become, you know, this Craftsman, you know this this, this Mason of sorts.

31:41
I remember doing something that fell flat.

In my brain, it was such a cool idea.

Yep.

Such a cool idea, but it didn't.

Necessarily work and.

I learned from that and it wasn't just one session, it was kind of across about two or three sessions.

32:02
So I had to learn to live with my mistake over about 3 ohh kind of tougher sessions.

And yeah, the the conversations we had afterwards were great, but the analogy that we came to, the metaphor, it's like cooking a dish and you have all the spices in the spice rack and all the ingredients and the whatever if you dump them all in sometimes.

32:27
You don't work with one another.

You know it's about using the right ones, right?

Yeah.

And when you're talking about like, stepping away, coming forward, how much do you push?

How much do you take back?

What do you include in that session?

I did everything.

I threw the whole spice rack in the thing I added like a dragon that was also a human that has shape shifted and it was her realm.

32:51
And she was trapped there.

And there was like this kind of missed gas that made people kind of go crazy and they had to fight.

Each other.

And then they were going through like physics.

Bending it was too much.

For me, I thought it was cool.

When I thought of the idea, the execution though, right, it's the execution and.

33:13
You know, some of it was cool.

Like, I took a couple ideas out of it, but it it, it didn't didn't go the way I wanted to.

Hmm.

And that also influenced me because it was a negative.

You know rather than a positive is is there an experience like that?

What?

33:28
Like not only was it bad, but it was the biggest experience for me, one of the biggest experiences for me.

And like do you have any similar stories?

Like any Any moments where you're like, ohh, I know that.

I'm gonna learn from this.

Yeah.

So in this the first iteration, and in fact I add more of an excuse in the second iteration of the story.

33:50
But in the first time I did it, I wanted a there's a sequelitis video on Mega Man X, and that the first you fight the boss, but it's like a fake fight because you can't win and it kicks your ass.

But that sets up the premise for the rest of the game in that you build your Mega Man, you get upgrades, blah blah blah, and then you fight the same boss at the end.

34:08
Then you kick his ass because you worked hard and got upgrades and practised and you've come back.

And I was like, oh that be good to have that.

I want that feeling of like insignificance at the start.

So then at the end of the campaign they're like, ah, we've come back and we've, we've come ticket.

So I I pretty much had that on the winnable encounter and the first time I run it, it was with initiative, it was with a different group of players.

34:32
Several games passed and I was like, this is going to be awesome.

I'm going to steamroll them and then that would be fine and they'll be like, oh, we're going to want revenge and this, that and the other.

But it really it was like, it's like, it's a classic foe part now of DM just don't have unwinnable things or don't roll for things that they can't win because it's not fun.

34:52
And I know it isn't because I've done it.

And midway through that fight, I was like, yeah, they're not.

They're just getting frustrated.

There's not that spark of revenge.

It is just.

Right, which this is just like wasting our time.

So the second time I ran it, I had instead had planned for him the the big, the big bad guy to turn up, be like I don't even want to waste my time on you.

35:16
Here are a few of my minions and then disappear completely so still has a display of power, still an interesting combat that they could win, well are likely to win.

It just timed up perfectly with one of the players having to leave the campaign.

So before jumping out, he fingered, have left him, and then disappeared through the port.

35:33
OK, yeah, so that worked really well at that time.

Uh, because they were like, oh, he's he's dead next to us.

Yeah, now, right?

And the the bad guys just disappeared.

So now we're super pissed.

Yes, yes, I I can definitely believe that.

35:51
And and the first one of the worst feelings as a DM is is the unhealthy frustration.

There's frustrations with like problem solving and trying to work things out.

There's like a healthy frustration, you know, that you can Foster and they're like, oh man, I gotta get this, whatever that might be.

36:07
And then there's the.

Ohh, just throw your pencil.

You know when people are kind of leaned back in the chair and there's there's different body language and you know that for me is very deflating.

As a DM, that means that I've.

Failed, essentially, Yes.

36:23
Yeah.

Yeah.

No, absolutely.

And that's certainly what it felt like.

And that's why it's such a sticking point for five years, six years later that I was thinking this is that's I don't want to do that again.

But you're a healthy human being and you didn't let it get you down.

36:40
And you it it it influenced you to be a better DM rather than keep you down it.

It did.

Yeah, Ohh, I like that.

Yes, that was that was a key core memory.

Sorry, I unlocked it and yeah.

36:56
Didn't allow just De Fluffs for the rest of the day.

Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm down.

I'm out.

I'm out.

Yeah.

No, I I I think everything that we've discussed is is very, very important and you know the different mediums, the positive and the negative, you know from your players around the table familial or from from from me very heavily and though.

37:22
Could be a little bit funky and weird, sort of tangent, but how does this podcast influence you out in your other gaming habits and conversations and stuff?

Because we're talking about the games and what we do.

We do, we do.

But we briefly spoke before the camera was rolling that.

37:40
You have an influence beyond the conversations and the direct consumption of the podcast.

Do you have again, could be short exposition, but do you have any moments that you think?

Of when I say that like, they're influences.

37:58
For your friends and family, have you influenced anyone to start playing DND?

Have you influenced anyone to start their own podcast?

So I've I've definitely helped people when they've thought about doing podcasts.

We're gonna get very meta now outside of D and I mean I've got an episode on podcast.

38:17
So that ship sailed years ago.

But yeah, because I was like, hey, here's all the learning I had to do, going from literally no knowledge or gear whatsoever to maybe some knowledge and some gear now in terms of audio editing and distribution and all that stuff.

So I've got, funnily enough, I've just got like a template e-mail that's like, here's the software I use is the damage it costs his you know why it's good.

38:40
And here's how I make my show.

So that's that's definitely helped a few a few people in my personal life outside of D&D that I have a lot of.

What's the best way to put them like silent listeners, I suppose.

I know you're out there.

38:55
I know you.

I know you're listening to me, my voice right now.

You, you and I'm talking to you right now.

And so I can only hope that that that group have told their friends and family and and brought things into their games and what I'll never get to see.

And that's that's just a quiet little piece I have with myself that like I know the numbers are the numbers of of the listeners and that's like, hey, I'm sure that they are getting value and it is impacting their games and having a good time, which is the most important thing.

39:28
And as as we said before the show, I've got a core group of more, more vocal listeners and not only do they do, they have feedback and comments on the individual shows themselves.

Hello you lot.

They they also will comment on various bits and bobs all like the players in my games who are like ohh you you mentioned that thing we did.

39:49
Yeah three years ago and 50 sessions ago and I'm like ohh, yeah, I'm glad you remember it.

I'm and I'm glad we're we're kind of reliving it through the show almost.

So you know this this kind of weird one way I guess what's the word not one way.

It's like para para symmetrical kind of information flow with this podcast, right.

40:09
I'm being fed by the my players and my listeners, but they're not really on the show, so is is.

That's fair.

Yeah.

Is it?

Is it very weird and unique place to be?

I can only hope that it's helped other people and and obviously from a personal point of view.

I've hit that bloody gold mine.

40:25
Where else am I ever going to speak to like 150 DMS and players and steal their information?

Nowhere on my time, in the comfort of my own house.

This is perfect.

I got to steal the information.

You've given it up.

Now we've we've sussed you out.

That's what you were doing all along. 20 more Thinking Critically clones are gonna spring up just to.

40:47
Fine, I'll be.

I'll be flattered.

I'll be flat.

Yeah, I love that.

I think you have a very positive influence.

You had a very positive influence from, you know, the last, the Generations product.

That was probably one of the very few times that all my siblings and my dad have been present at once that is outside of some weird family function or whatever.

41:08
It had a very positive.

It had a very positive impact on me and just my my well-being.

I felt very good for doing it.

Ohh, talking to someone like minded like yourself and you know seeing your your conversation with my dad on the Ravenloft podcast and the way that you were talking and it's all been very good.

41:26
And I I watched back for podcasts and I smiled uncontrollably when you were discussing your homunculus.

Ohh yeah.

And I I just That brought a joy to me that I don't think I could really replicate somewhere else like it.

41:43
It's like, yes, your homonculus.

And you said about the bathroom putting it.

Find your homonculus.

Ohh yeah yeah.

Whenever you make it, just Amazon it.

Whatever you send it, I want it.

Find your homonculus influence that these games have on us.

42:01
That's that's the thing, right?

We talk about what goes into the game.

There's the influence that goes in, but then you have the playing, you get your friends round the table, your family, and it's the positive influence that comes out.

Hmm.

The the positive influence that it has on me after I finish our great game.

42:21
Like a really good game.

You know the ones, you know, there's one where you're all round the table, you've got your snacks, you've got your beer, you've got your Jaffa Cakes, everything like that, right?

They're all gone at the end of it.

You've all just been having a really good time and maybe you've had a big fight, you've had a big BG.

42:37
The map is all drawn out.

There's a whole bunch of men, whatever it is, and you're done and you're all sat around at the end and you let that who and you have that good feeling.

That is one of the reasons why D&D is one of the best games ever and the best experiences ever.

42:57
Because I I can, I can achieve that on stage as a musician and when I play and I have a really, really good experience and there's a great gig around playing with other musicians, right.

You know, I'm very fortunate in my job.

I'm music director at the School of Rock here in in Vacaville, CA and plug, plug, blah, blah, blah.

43:16
But we just did a staff show rehearsal and getting to play with all of the really good musicians that I work with.

Ohh man, that was cool.

That feeling is the feeling when you have a great moment in D&D and you make friends and you, yeah, have those stories that you come back to later.

43:35
It's awesome.

I'm I'm a little bit, you know, short of words, but it it's really good.

It's why you do it.

It is, yeah.

You don't know.

You do it until it happens, right?

You're just playing, and some people don't have that.

They play D&D and they just muck about with their friends.

43:52
But then they have that one game and then it all changes.

It all changes.

Yeah, so I I've said this before on the show.

There's been several times in my home game that I run from here that, you know, I've had a long day at work or something and sometimes, you know, you just want to turn your brain off and.

44:12
Put on some television and do nothing for the rest of the evening and ohh God, I've kind of got responsibility to you know four or five of my mates now to essentially perform.

And I've been a bit like I guess I'll play DND tonight and then like 10 minutes in we're laughing.

44:28
We're joking we're we've got the we've got the in jokes as we were discussing before.

You know, wouldn't it be funny if or or then this happens and with my home game?

Certainly there's a really good.

Cadence now between like.

Everyone's kind of getting in little jokes here and there, but it doesn't really disrupt anything.

44:46
And everyone still kind of gets what we're trying to do and stuff.

And that's we've we've kind of hit a really good sweet spot now with like, you know when you go off and goofy hypotheticals and like I do this other crazy thing and we're like, ah, yeah, I know you're not being serious, but it's it's funny and it no one really cares.

So after like 10 minutes of that.

45:02
I'm having the time of my life and then when we wrap up at like 11:30, I'm not I'm, I'm actually really glad that we we still played yeah, which is nice.

And to go from you know really dower like or to Tuesday and hump day tomorrow and blah, blah, blah.

And it's work, work, work to then come out the other side and be like, oh, I can't sleep now because that was a lot of fun.

45:22
Yeah, I need like 20 minutes to to unwind.

Now is is awesome.

Yeah mate, love that.

Yeah.

I'm I'm really glad for those experiences.

I'm really glad to say that I did that.

You know, I'm.

I'm running through the wall in my head that I'm sure they're all going through.

45:41
Yeah, I think of my first experience and I think of.

I think of it as a player, right?

I think of great moments as a player.

I I mentioned that my characters have a lot of character in them, right?

This is where it comes from, being a DM and creating that story and that platform for people.

45:59
Because I know that, and I'm thinking one of my character.

I'm thinking Dark Son.

My my character that I played was a merchant slash wizard right?

And this whole arc was that he was betrayed by his trading partner and he got left out in the middle of the sand and clawed his way back up.

46:22
And there are things that happen that, and I have a very good DM.

You know Darrell, he's my dad's friend.

Is that my uncle at this point?

But he put the things in there that allowed my character and me to have these moments of like the redemption and the rich, like I got my revenge.

46:40
And he allowed me to use my back story as as this merchant to have an impact on the story and tell things.

And it all came to the head.

There was this giant, you know, battle fight thing.

46:56
Everything went up on the wall and I'm remembering this so very fondly and he's like at the end you're blown off by off off by like a a fireball or a blast.

Yeah.

Then there's you see walking towards you as silhouette and he's it was my old it was the person who betrayed me and I was like I've this is a 2-3 year arc and it's all there and my my God, it was brilliant.

47:24
It was so good, that moment that you're saying, like, I'm so glad I did it.

You, you take that big arc and that big story.

It was fantastic.

It was really, really good.

It just made the whole thing because I felt like I'd been listened to.

That's just a human thing.

47:40
We like it when that happens, right?

We want to be paid attention.

We want we want people to to do that and he did that and he created a moment for me.

You're very rare you get moments in life.

Ohh this is your time to shine.

Yeah, Dungeons and Dragons does that for for people.

47:59
And coming back, I'm getting, yeah, a little emotional, but yeah, and and it's not just because of what we did, but it's also who I played with.

And, you know, they're really good friends.

And I'm obviously far away, Yadi.

But all of it is like, I want other people to to do that.

Have that moment.

48:15
Hmm.

Riding a dragon, getting revenge.

What?

Whatever it is, it's like, as I said the I didn't make that story for you.

You contributed to it and I just kind of put it back and you have that.

48:32
It's so good on both sides of the screen.

It really is.

And that's it.

That's why, yeah, that's why.

That's that's why it's so good.

That's why this game is so good.

I'd I'd love to end the show there, but we've got 5 more minutes to fill.

48:48
So you're talking about your turn.

How about that aeroplane feed?

Yeah.

Well we're riffing off the back of that and kind of continuing on with what I was saying earlier on obviously that was my home game where we where we we play remote a couple of times in the in the streamed game on the player in the dungeon starts to do so.

49:08
I'm about to be DM off for a little bit obviously because that's recording.

It does inherently change the nature of what is happening at the table.

It's inevitable it's you know it's being pushed out to the public.

So you're going to change.

49:23
So with that in mind we we'll we'll I think we I think we literally we.

That we have, we had the TPK that was it and.

But the strikes the DM about it.

And considering Rooney maybe 10 sessions from the end of the campaign, I think it's fair to say that there's an argument to maybe it's perhaps slightly anticlimatic ever so slightly, just because we had two years of gaming and then we're all dead now.

49:49
But I know slave to the story.

So story comes first.

We will die.

They will die.

And that's that's I was like, that's for me.

But anyway, what?

We were playing and we all died and he was like, OK, well, you know, we're going to end the session there.

Thanks for listening.

You know, like, comment, subscribe, hit socials, use this discount code rah rah.

50:06
And then we hit stop on the stream and then we're all like, you OK, dude, because this is seems to have affected you could quite a lot.

And it was, you know what I'm getting at even once.

You know the hard stop on the recording, it's still affected us after the game and we had about another half an hour just sitting around discussing, you know, what's what's happened, what's gonna happen, how's, how's everyone feeling with with what's just happened.

50:32
That's all just behind the scenes off camera RAW like should be processed this genuinely for a second I'm in complete agreeance.

Those little discussions that you have and the things that when you have those moments, yeah, it.

50:47
And right back to the it's all an influence.

It all it's, it's every influences like a chain link, like link, link chain, right.

It's not just the one here.

And then there's this little influence, and then this one, and then you build it up.

51:03
And then you create that long stream, that of of, yeah, all those links that that, that stream of influence of consciousness, subconsciousness.

It all culminates into your big hat.

So that's the moral of the story.

51:21
We're a big hat.

We're a bit the biggest hat you can find, both literally and metaphorically, Yeah, is my advice to.

I want to see all my listeners pictures of you showed up to your next game with.

That's it.

Yeah, you can.

That's it.

That's it.

Now that's your thing.

51:37
That's your thing.

I have to do like a Jamiroquai thing and always wear a hat.

Now on the on the on the show.

Yeah well I don't know I would.

We're going to have to have you back on the show.

I know we talked again off off record about how long is the episode going to run and stuff, and I do think there's still value in talking about how characters influence.

51:58
The campaign settings, there's a lot of value in that discussion.

Ohh yeah.

And how do the DM's kind of fold that stuff in without it impacting the world too much or having to reckon swaths of history and and so on and so on.

However, I absolutely that's deserving of its own.

52:15
Section Part 2, Part 2.

I think it's it's settled to settled well.

I'm more than happy to come and and discuss a burning passion.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Well I I, you know, I mean that's that's probably it from me.

52:30
I think we've discussed a lot about how not only have you, you and I both been influenced by the game and the the culture, I suppose, and those who play with in terms of.

How we take that to the table, but then also in terms of us as humans, I know, you know D&D now is a big part of.

52:50
My personality and and me and obviously the the podcast it takes up a huge amount of my time and something I'm very proud of and just to to go from would this be a cool thing to try one afternoon.

Yeah to now like I've got a poster and a T-shirt and I talked to hundreds of people around the world about it all the time is is amazing and the you know fantastic people such as yourself that otherwise I wouldn't have had those those connections with is on super stoked.

53:18
It's been such a such a huge.

Great influence in my life and obviously for yourself as well as we had about in the last show, how great it's been for you and and your family.

Yeah, definitely.

I don't think I can add anything of value to that.

53:34
That's absolutely right.

I'm of all of all things said and done.

Yes, it is a positive influence all around.

For myself, my friends, my family, When you find something that becomes a little bit of you, or a lot of you and other people, add to that and they enjoy it.

53:55
They have similar influences and they come and you you do build that little subculture, that little family, that little extra, those those bonds internally and externally from the the table.

It's, it's good.

I mean, I don't want to butcher a beautiful ending.

54:13
I I I would love to come on and talk more for with you dinner though.

It's it's good.

It's it's really the the I I I haven't done it in a long time.

I needed it, you know.

You know when they say the the little bits and they say ohh, what's something that you could talk about for like 3 hours straight with no breaks?

54:33
Yeah.

Ohh Dungeons and Dragons and stuff.

I you know yeah I definitely could I yeah I could have.

I do have.

So do, yeah.

Ohh.

Well, nice.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

It absolutely has it.

54:49
Is there anything you want to, you know, talk about promote the drive action towards call to action?

Me personally, no, I don't have anything.

I they don't have any D&D stuff.

I don't, I don't do any.

It's just.

55:05
Be good, Be excellent to each other.

Be yes.

That's wise, men have said in the in the first half.

Awesome.

Well, well, as you know, absolutely been a blast and absolutely we'll have you back on for even more influence where we'll focus on more on the the more literal conversations not over.

55:25
The Ominous.

Awesome.

Well.

Well, I have to say is that, yeah.

Thank you so much, Mikey.

No, thank you then.

Hello.

Appreciate you, big time.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you all for you all listening at home.

But my, my quiet listeners and my, my, my, my more vocal guys.

55:42
Thank you everyone for listening.

And you don't.

Forget especially And up in the back and up on the top, There, up in their nose, bleeds.

As usual, all the usual stuff like comment, subscribe, X I'm hesitant enough to say ohh yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?

55:58
It is, yeah.

Instagram, YouTube, obviously.

Videos available on Spotify and YouTube if you wanna see how beautiful face is as well as listen to our beautiful voices.

Otherwise, thank you all for listening and good night.

Now it's time for the Patreon shout outs.

56:13
Huge thank you to all my patrons, starting with Josh, Lewanika and Glen, the three fabulous toasts of tabletop journeys who've been on the show several times before and who I'll always invite back to go check out tabletopjourneys@tjourneys.com or at T Journeys on Twitter.

56:31
We also have Joe from the Fourth Leg Podcast podcast all about giving DMS another leg to stand on.

Again, previous guests of the show and I thoroughly encourage you to go and check out their great.

Content so you could find them at the fourth leg on Twitter with a good friend of the show.

56:48
Optional Rule.

You can go and find him out on optionalrule.com or at Optional Rule.

Full of very insightful and educated comments and thoughts and threads on the really nitty gritty of D&D we have.

What a guy.

Matthew Perkins, who is just out there in the world trying to make you laugh.

57:08
Let's go and check him out at matthewperkins.net or at Hay.

It's Matty PTYP and good friend of the show and one of my table mates Matthew St Go and check out his partner's hustle at virtualtimehustle.com or at MP St 88 on Twitter.