Fudging

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to thinking critically

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a d and d discussion a podcast where we

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deep dive single word concepts or ideas

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within the dungeons and dragons 5e

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framework my name is danilo and i like

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all kinds of games and the crunchy

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mechanics that make him tick you can

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find me on twitter facebook and

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instagram and i'd really appreciate a

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like or a follow

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and today i'm joined by bart wynance

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thank you ever so much bart for joining

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me today

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can you tell us a little bit about

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yourself

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okay hi everyone my name is bart wynance

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and i am a freelance rpg writer slash

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designer from antwerp belgium

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which explains my accent little i

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suppose i have been playing rpgs since

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95 i believe starting with call of

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cthulhu

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i've then drifted towards pathfinder

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first edition and have recently well

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three years ago started playing a fifth

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edition campaign curse of strong

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awesome yeah much more experience than

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myself so i'm looking forward to

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leveraging some of that experience today

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let's see

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the uh the topic of today is

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fudging

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uh what is what does that mean to you

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well

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i'd like to give a nuanced answer

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because when you talk about fudging

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people tend to take very extremist views

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either

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it's it's all the rule of cool and

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fudging is the way to go

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or it's all bad and you should never do

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it

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but in my opinion fudging is pretty much

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uh it's a symptom

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of something

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and when things have come

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as far

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as that you need to fudge then you

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probably should do it but what you

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really should do is look at ways to

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avoid doing so

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yeah it's uh but what is the word an

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incendiary topic sometimes as you said a

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lot of extreme views on it um

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and i've touched on it a couple of times

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in the podcast today like fudging dice

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rolls obviously i all the way back in

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episode two i think in ability i asked

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jack then you know what's his what's his

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opinion on on a dm doing that so

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obviously you and i started talking on

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twitter because you've recently done a

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whole ten part

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tweet thread seven seven parties seven

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seven part tweet thread about dice

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fudging and as you've just said

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described the symptoms and trying to get

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to the root cause of okay it was almost

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like

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hey you might have wondered how i've

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found myself in this position of having

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to fudge dice

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that that movie

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and and trying to get to the symptom of

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okay this is what's led you on that path

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and this is how you can kind of cut it

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off much earlier and just save yourself

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the hassle which i which i found really

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really interesting and i'd encourage all

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the listeners to go out and check bart's

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threads on those because there's a lot

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of

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interesting things and it shouldn't be

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any surprise to you part that i didn't

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agree a hundred percent all the time but

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that's why we're talking today and yeah

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that was interesting actually yeah thank

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you

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and um

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but you know most parts i did but there

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are one a few that you know it's a spice

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of life right different different

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opinions and different points of view so

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of course before we get into nitty

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gritty and as i said jack mentioned way

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back when all the way back through the

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mists of time in episode two

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he said

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he feels as a player it's okay for the

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dm to do if

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it makes sense at the time and i

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certainly feel like it's one of those

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things as are a lot in d d specifically

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d d where context is everything i think

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it's so incendiary a question because

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it's so dependent on context right and

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when you ask that question in isolation

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yeah when you ask that question in

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isolation of just oh i've done this or

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should i do this

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people can't help but be like oh my god

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that's the worst thing you could ever

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possibly do because i don't know any of

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the context or the setting or

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how big of an impact that would be in

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your world so

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does that broadly align with i know i

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know your thoughts but

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let's take it slowly for the time being

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does that broadly align with with your

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thoughts on it well pretty much i assume

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that when both the dm and the players

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agree that at some point dinosaur should

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be ignored

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then there's a good reason to do so

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so i won't argue with that

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but the point i made in my article is

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that

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many of those situations can be avoided

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i'm not sure about the exact context of

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the situation question

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but i i believe in most cases can just

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be avoided altogether

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but there is a need to fudge i i want to

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stress that as soon as the end

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thinks or

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assumes the game will be better if they

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ignore the dice rolls well i have

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nothing against that

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they probably have a good reason to do

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so i have a bit of a

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it's a difficult one for me i am

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as a person as human being quite

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risk-averse and quite process oriented

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so

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just that the chaotic nature of dice

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rolls

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are already at a bit of a

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friction with myself there

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one thing that i've wanted to say and

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it's one thing you mentioned in one of

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your threads was rolling in the open

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rolling publicly for example and

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if you'd have asked me or suggested that

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of me

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you know maybe a year or so ago i would

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have found that almost abhorrent an idea

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you know a

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blasphemy to the to the purity of of the

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game

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because it removes

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a tool essentially a toolkit yeah

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however

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since i've started doing it

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it's like a weight has been lifted off

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my shoulders

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i'm glad you mentioned that because

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that's exactly how i felt as well i i

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only really started rolling in the open

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at the start of my cursive chart

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campaign

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and i had the same feeling i was no

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longer responsible or i no longer felt

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responsible the time for everyone's fun

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yeah that's a really elegant way of

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putting it obviously like the gm dm

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has a large responsibility yeah that

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remains of course yeah yeah and all the

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players have a huge amount of

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responsibility too of course but that is

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an extra layer on top of like

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i've kind of implicitly been given the

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power to fudge dice rolls and it just

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implies that

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they are

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directly correlated to fun and it didn't

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it doesn't have to be that way right it

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can just be the dice full where they may

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and it was just as you discussed like a

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a breath of fresh air almost like a

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weight off my shoulders to be like hey i

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don't care like it sounds silly to say i

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don't care anymore

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but that's the only way i can describe

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but when i was rolling privately i was

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there's just another layer of maths on

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top to be like oh is that too much is

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that too little do i need to think about

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it is that going to break the game

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whereas now it's like whatever

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they are what they are

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and

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the most important part is

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right now when i'm when i'm running the

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game i feel like a participant i i'm not

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a player obviously

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but i can unabashedly root for the

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players i i wish them success

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and they know i'm i'm not how to save

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them or push the story one way or

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another but i'm actually actively

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rooting for them and i can do that by

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just rolling all dice in the open and

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and being obvious about that

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yeah that's it's like a twofold benefit

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of what you've just described of being

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transparent with the players and i think

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despite this tradition of a dm screen i

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think transparency is underrated to be

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honest there's always that kind of

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semi-adversarial

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dm screen

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ideology but i think there's there's a

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lot to be said about

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transparency and one way you can achieve

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that is by rolling in the open and the

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the other half the other boon i found is

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as i mentioned it's less it feels like a

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meta gaming less but of course all the

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all the dm does is metagame the metagame

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is their game in a certain way

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if you put it in a certain way but i

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have to yeah i i have to worry less like

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it's less responsibility without losing

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anything from the game

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it's it's less of

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i can control whether that character

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live or dies

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but it's no less fun because of it and

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that's not your burden anymore or it

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shouldn't be

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so that was that was one point and it's

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oddly become easier since moving online

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because of virtual tabletops

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you know it's it's there the numbers are

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on the screen everybody can see them

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indeed you know if i roll in the open in

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a big table with my six players i've you

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know lean in the middle or you know only

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a couple of them will see it's it's ever

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so slightly diluted but you can't get

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much more transparent than

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the gm rolled 1d20 the answer was 15.

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there you go guys

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true

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but that raises an interesting question

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and

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we're going to talk about

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not fudging dice or the results of the

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numbers on the dice but obviously if you

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approach that from a different point of

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view and it's

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difficulty classes or dc's for a certain

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skill check

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so

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i'm a very improvisational

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dm

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that's a nice way of saying i kind of

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lead with my intuition i kind of make a

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judgment call at the time how hard or

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easy a particular task should be and

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this is going to sound contradictory to

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the

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how much i was just gushing over rolling

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in the open but obviously that's still

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very much internalized right there's the

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there isn't a public dc so do you also

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advocate having

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a public dc and saying like before the

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character rolls

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hey

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00:10:06,079 --> 00:10:11,279
or before you roll for the character hey

284
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:14,480
this dc is 15. it kind of depends on on

285
00:10:11,279 --> 00:10:15,920
the context i think but usually yes i i

286
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,000
will say

287
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,680
what the armor class is or what the

288
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,760
difficulty class is beforehand because

289
00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:24,959
it helps the player imagine just just

290
00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:27,519
how difficult the task at hand is

291
00:10:24,959 --> 00:10:29,200
it adds to the tension now obviously i

292
00:10:27,519 --> 00:10:30,800
don't do this all the time

293
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,040
for for special opponents who have

294
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,279
special defenses or something i don't

295
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:38,240
usually call out the ac

296
00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:39,360
very tricky skill checks or skill checks

297
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,279
where

298
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,000
the exact conditions are uncertain i

299
00:10:41,279 --> 00:10:46,480
also play koi about the dc but usually

300
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,079
yes i will tell the players that's what

301
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,160
you need to roll

302
00:10:48,079 --> 00:10:52,000
and they like it actually well of course

303
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,079
that just that's anecdotal because i

304
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,480
only have five players so it means

305
00:10:54,079 --> 00:10:57,920
nothing but at least at my table it's

306
00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,760
appreciated

307
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,440
i think for most of those kind of

308
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,959
non-critical and uncomplicated

309
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,720
encounters

310
00:11:02,959 --> 00:11:06,160
nine times out of ten my players are

311
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,920
paying attention to what hits and misses

312
00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,600
anyway it only takes like two rounds of

313
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,399
combat and they've worked out what the

314
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,880
ac is anyway you know and you know

315
00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:16,560
putting things like parry and shield

316
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,720
aside it's

317
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:20,399
pretty easy in a few you know maybe even

318
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,160
one round depending on how the dice roll

319
00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:25,279
someone hits the 17 misses someone hits

320
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,279
an 18 it hits done okay it worked out

321
00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:29,600
anyway there's also i've noticed a

322
00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:31,600
strange psychological aspect when the

323
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,720
players don't know the dc at least my

324
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,399
table

325
00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,760
they keep rolling the dice in the hand

326
00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:37,760
for a much longer time

327
00:11:37,839 --> 00:11:41,600
they hold the dice just try to weigh

328
00:11:40,079 --> 00:11:43,839
their options like

329
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,640
what would the dc be they don't know but

330
00:11:43,839 --> 00:11:48,079
once you say it's ac 17 okay it takes

331
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,360
two seconds to roll the dice very

332
00:11:48,079 --> 00:11:52,880
strange thing that is strange wow okay

333
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,320
that's interesting i hadn't thought of

334
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,720
that before

335
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,160
i i play a ball game called gloomhaven

336
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,639
that i've mentioned at least twice

337
00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,000
already on the podcast and

338
00:12:00,639 --> 00:12:03,760
it's kind of a cooperative dungeon

339
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,760
crawler and

340
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,200
the rules of that when you're playing

341
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,200
together is

342
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,399
no names and no numbers so it's

343
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,600
everybody's playing with part the

344
00:12:10,399 --> 00:12:13,040
picture because

345
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,639
nobody has all the information the

346
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,079
players are playing classes and they

347
00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:18,240
have special cards that can do special

348
00:12:16,079 --> 00:12:20,079
things but i can't see what my tankier

349
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,839
partner next to me has available to him

350
00:12:20,079 --> 00:12:23,920
so you're all kind of playing on half

351
00:12:21,839 --> 00:12:25,680
information which is where the fun comes

352
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,360
from and the friction and the

353
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,720
and the accidents the happy accidents

354
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,480
and whatnot

355
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,639
so what they say when they may say no

356
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,639
names in their numbers is you can allude

357
00:12:32,639 --> 00:12:37,040
to your party what you're going to do i

358
00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:39,120
might go there and hit this guy but i

359
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:41,200
can't tell you when i might do that or

360
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,519
how much damage i'm gonna do

361
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,279
which again builds into the oh well do i

362
00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:47,600
need to do more do i need to do less how

363
00:12:45,279 --> 00:12:50,320
much can i push it so yeah it's that

364
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:53,120
it's that no names and no numbers so

365
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,480
you have initiative in that game

366
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,079
in a round

367
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,920
that the four party members can go at a

368
00:12:56,079 --> 00:12:59,680
certain time broadly in the control of

369
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,639
the players within some certain rule

370
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:02,480
sets

371
00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:04,800
uh the initiative goes from zero to a

372
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,839
hundred but what that what that breeds

373
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,440
and it's a bit of a meme in the

374
00:13:05,839 --> 00:13:09,040
community is

375
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,959
you've got like

376
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,399
mid i'm going to go in the mid

377
00:13:10,959 --> 00:13:15,680
which means

378
00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:18,880
40 to 60 at some point like you you

379
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:20,560
start inventing this language

380
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,160
you start inventing this language and it

381
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:25,120
gets to the you know a silly point of

382
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:28,160
i'm going mid mid mid which is like

383
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,800
which is like 49 to 51 right like oh i'm

384
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,120
going mid late of early

385
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:35,680
early is like zero to 25 so the middle

386
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,880
of zero to 25 is what like

387
00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,000
12

388
00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,680
uh

389
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,399
but you start inventing like four layers

390
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:45,040
deep of this kind of like until it and

391
00:13:42,399 --> 00:13:46,839
there's even a meme picture of

392
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,800
literally a hundred different

393
00:13:46,839 --> 00:13:51,040
phrases technically you're not saying

394
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,560
any numbers but if you're going early

395
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,120
early early early early that's five

396
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:57,120
[Laughter]

397
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,839
so like you you can kind of get around

398
00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,519
it

399
00:13:57,839 --> 00:14:00,560
in in that regard and what i'm getting

400
00:13:59,519 --> 00:14:03,760
at is

401
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,720
when i'm rolling or judging dc's at the

402
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,000
table

403
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,320
i'm often

404
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,240
employing a similar strategy of saying

405
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,360
you can try but it will be very

406
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,800
difficult

407
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:17,600
wink as in it's dc3

408
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,120
yeah it's basically the same strategy

409
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,440
yeah and um

410
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,440
it works well i believe there's nothing

411
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,320
wrong with it if uh if you want to keep

412
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,320
these hidden a bit and then save some

413
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,000
some surprises for later

414
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,519
but when you're just fighting bog

415
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,440
standard goblins

416
00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:35,440
i see no trouble and saying look their

417
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,399
sc-12 just beat him up and be done with

418
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,880
it

419
00:14:36,399 --> 00:14:40,399
it saves time yep for sure which is you

420
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,360
know combat is a bit notorious for

421
00:14:40,399 --> 00:14:45,199
taking long as it is anyway exactly but

422
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,279
for special encounters as you mentioned

423
00:14:45,199 --> 00:14:49,199
yeah of course you you might want to

424
00:14:47,279 --> 00:14:50,959
preserve the mystery bit

425
00:14:49,199 --> 00:14:52,320
yeah build the tension but the surprise

426
00:14:50,959 --> 00:14:54,000
but the injury eagle they're not well as

427
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,600
yeah for those bigger set piece

428
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,519
encounters for sure

429
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,199
but for things which are i was going to

430
00:14:57,519 --> 00:15:01,839
say less important but that's not right

431
00:14:59,199 --> 00:15:04,639
so out of combat account as i say the

432
00:15:01,839 --> 00:15:06,880
bard is trying to the classic example of

433
00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:08,560
trying to get a discount at a merchant

434
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,839
it's five gold i'll give you three gold

435
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,880
for it roll me

436
00:15:10,839 --> 00:15:15,440
persuasion you know that that is still

437
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,959
very much in the dm's fiat of

438
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,480
basically

439
00:15:16,959 --> 00:15:20,880
setting whatever they want which is a

440
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,639
way of fudging the outcome right you're

441
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,320
you're rendering the dice roll useless

442
00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:26,240
to a certain extent because the dm could

443
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,320
say 25 i'm having a bad day and i hate

444
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,240
this bard so i'm just going to say

445
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,199
he's going to fail no matter what he

446
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,360
rolls what are you what are your

447
00:15:31,199 --> 00:15:36,079
thoughts on that like the other side of

448
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,759
fudging i suppose i think i i talked

449
00:15:36,079 --> 00:15:38,959
about that not necessarily the bard

450
00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:41,519
example but

451
00:15:38,959 --> 00:15:44,480
i mentioned somewhere that there are

452
00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:45,519
also pointless nice roles and that gems

453
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,000
might be

454
00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:50,480
tempted to fudge those as well

455
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,639
so what i had in mind for example are

456
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,839
the barbarian wants to kick down the

457
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,160
door

458
00:15:53,839 --> 00:15:58,720
has strength bars plus three

459
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,680
rolls one loss again rather two rolls of

460
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,000
five

461
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,279
and before long the gm says okay you

462
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,199
kick down the door

463
00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:06,079
but you can just save time and not roll

464
00:16:05,199 --> 00:16:08,720
at all

465
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:09,519
uh that's also a form of the n fiat

466
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,360
and

467
00:16:09,519 --> 00:16:12,240
i'm going off from the tangent here hold

468
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,480
on

469
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,959
uh what i wanted to say was there are

470
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,360
two kinds of gm field in my opinion you

471
00:16:16,959 --> 00:16:22,639
have the enabling kind

472
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:24,560
which supports player choice

473
00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:26,160
and you have the negating kind which

474
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,040
which blocks it

475
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,800
now in the case of the bard's example uh

476
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,880
if you set the dc

477
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,199
extremely high of course

478
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,040
then you might as well tell him well no

479
00:16:35,199 --> 00:16:38,800
this is not going to happen and save

480
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,920
yourself the time of the roll

481
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:44,560
that's a negating gm fiat

482
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:48,160
but you could realistically of course

483
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:50,639
set the dc at anything you like

484
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,279
and that would be an enabling gm theater

485
00:16:50,639 --> 00:16:56,160
but then it would enable more if you

486
00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:57,839
told it to the player before rolling so

487
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,079
like you could tell them okay this is

488
00:16:57,839 --> 00:17:02,320
going to be a dc25 so it's going to be

489
00:17:00,079 --> 00:17:03,759
difficult do you want to try or do you

490
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,199
want to

491
00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:07,360
improve your chances by doing something

492
00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:11,120
else

493
00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:12,799
do you want to bribe him do you want to

494
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:14,079
threaten him whatever do you want to

495
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:15,760
improve your choice somehow and that's

496
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,120
an enabling choice

497
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,520
or an enabling choice the player can

498
00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:20,799
make um that's reminding me of something

499
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,240
you said earlier on that i wanted to

500
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:23,280
talk about is that

501
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,919
it

502
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,760
helps communicate the difficulty to the

503
00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:29,200
player so of course i could i could wax

504
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,559
lyrical to the player oh it's very

505
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,960
difficult but

506
00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:34,880
that obviously means that can mean

507
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,320
basically nothing to the player but then

508
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,640
once you've once you've set the number

509
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,160
it's really told them this no okay hang

510
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,320
on this is actually pretty difficult

511
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,400
like i understand now what the gm is

512
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,799
trying to communicate to me exactly and

513
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,120
it really helps build that that shared

514
00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:50,000
image of the scene uh for all players

515
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:51,360
present

516
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,880
man that's

517
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,600
such a profound

518
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,039
boon and we start this conversation with

519
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,559
oh well i've rolled behind the screen it

520
00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:00,640
was a six i'll just say it's 12. but

521
00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:02,880
it's those it's those kind of things

522
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,120
that are just so easily overlooked the

523
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,600
bigger impact that they can have or the

524
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:08,880
bigger bonuses you can get by by not

525
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,120
doing them

526
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:14,240
the other thing i wanted to mention is

527
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,679
there's a pretty fundamental rule i i'm

528
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,679
pretty sure it's a rule and official

529
00:18:15,679 --> 00:18:18,799
rule but also it's an absolutely rule of

530
00:18:17,679 --> 00:18:21,120
thumb it's that you should never get the

531
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:23,679
players to roll for

532
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,640
something trivial or impossible

533
00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:26,559
and that

534
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,919
in its own is obvious

535
00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:29,280
but we've just described a couple of

536
00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:30,320
examples there just off the top of our

537
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,840
heads

538
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,679
where people you know gm's will still

539
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,480
get characters to roll even though it is

540
00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:37,840
effectively impossible

541
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,400
so like if that merchant was

542
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:43,440
particularly stingy and the chances slim

543
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,360
to none then you wouldn't have them real

544
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,720
persuasion because it's just as you said

545
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:48,559
wastes time

546
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,760
but that brings me to an another

547
00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:51,600
interesting point and it is one you

548
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,280
tweeted about and it's that single point

549
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,640
of failure and this is one of the points

550
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,520
that we actually did

551
00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:00,960
agree on and it is a big

552
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:03,280
bug bearer of mine because

553
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,799
it's just so obvious

554
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,679
maybe maybe that's just the benefit of

555
00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:09,280
being a dm i'm not sure but having a a

556
00:19:07,679 --> 00:19:11,760
role for a single point of failure is

557
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,720
just so immediately obvious to me that

558
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,280
it's it

559
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,919
the reason it bugs me

560
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,440
rant mode engaged the reason it bugs me

561
00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:22,000
is because

562
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,880
it doesn't value my time right

563
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,200
if

564
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,280
there's a single point of failure so for

565
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,080
for those listening what we mean by that

566
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,320
is

567
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,360
the dm has painted themselves into a

568
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,520
corner or set up some kind of encounter

569
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:39,039
where it all comes down to a single dice

570
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:41,120
roll to move the story forward so

571
00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:44,080
they need the players to see or to

572
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:45,520
notice a clue like a really critical

573
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,000
clue it's all come down to this one

574
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,760
single clue they're investigating a room

575
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,840
they're searching for it

576
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,039
okay romeo

577
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,880
investigation uh-oh

578
00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:56,480
the player has rolled a one

579
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,240
and that that's what we mean by single

580
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,080
point of failure right it's it's they

581
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,000
can't the players are now stuck

582
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,520
essentially so what does the dm do in

583
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,200
that situation

584
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,039
and the reason it bugs me is because as

585
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,039
a player maybe i'm not even i don't even

586
00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:10,799
have to be the one rolling the dice but

587
00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:13,840
what happens in that situation usually

588
00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:15,039
is the dm has to scrabble around

589
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,159
to say

590
00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:18,960
uh but maybe you have advantage because

591
00:20:18,159 --> 00:20:20,080
you've

592
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,600
er

593
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,000
you feel good about yourself today

594
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,440
because it's friday roll again yeah and

595
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,039
then that's

596
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,679
that's the life ring they've thrown

597
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:31,120
themselves which immediately at that

598
00:20:29,679 --> 00:20:33,360
point you could already tell that okay

599
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:35,520
something's not quite right here

600
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,919
shock horror they roll a two

601
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,360
well okay well they're still screwed oh

602
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:41,120
maybe uh

603
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:43,440
john you roll as well because you're

604
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:45,039
also kind of looking around

605
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,159
yeah you're there as well you take the

606
00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,000
role yeah

607
00:20:46,159 --> 00:20:49,520
yeah and it doesn't value my time

608
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,039
because at that point i know what the

609
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,120
outcome is i know that we're going to

610
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:55,679
find this thing so why are we still

611
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:57,760
faffing around with roles

612
00:20:55,679 --> 00:20:59,760
well exactly and there's two ways to

613
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,720
handle that the first is consider it a

614
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:05,120
pointless role and you don't roll at all

615
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,400
which is probably the fastest way

616
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:08,640
but

617
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,440
there's another way and that's actually

618
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,840
a great trick i learned from

619
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,640
the alexandrian which is a blog i assume

620
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,960
you're familiar with um no please fill

621
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,799
me in and my listeners well uh it's

622
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,840
called the alexandrian it's run by

623
00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:26,000
justin alexander and he has been writing

624
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,880
very very insightful articles

625
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,840
since

626
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,039
i'm not even sure i

627
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,720
think i don't even dare say but we've

628
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:35,280
been running a very long time

629
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,720
yeah i think he started with 3.5

630
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,200
dungeons and dragons

631
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,440
uh anyway very insightful articles uh

632
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:44,640
where he discusses common

633
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,960
gmming errors common design errors and

634
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,120
actually it's it's his blog which which

635
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,480
inspired me to write this uh thread

636
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,200
about fudging

637
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,240
and

638
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,960
what he mentions there is among other

639
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,799
things the three clue rule that's wrong

640
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,799
you should definitely search for that

641
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:02,080
that is a that's the thing i've heard of

642
00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:03,919
i think you've mentioned before in the

643
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:07,600
podcast that i've put into the link i

644
00:22:03,919 --> 00:22:10,000
think yeah in the the thread i mean yeah

645
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,559
and basically uh basically what you do

646
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,000
is if the adventure

647
00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:15,919
or the mystery scenario because it's

648
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,799
about mystery scenarios

649
00:22:15,919 --> 00:22:20,240
if the mystery requires a certain

650
00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:22,799
realization

651
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:26,159
to be solved then that realization

652
00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:28,799
should be spread around in the scenario

653
00:22:26,159 --> 00:22:32,159
among at least three clues so if the

654
00:22:28,799 --> 00:22:33,440
players miss the first misinterpret the

655
00:22:32,159 --> 00:22:35,120
second

656
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,760
then they'll probably

657
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:39,840
be able to advance when they find and

658
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,400
rightly interpret the third and that's a

659
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,760
robust scenario design so then you can

660
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,919
have players

661
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,960
failing their roles or simply making the

662
00:22:45,919 --> 00:22:50,159
wrong choices and missing certain clues

663
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,640
but they still have a chance of

664
00:22:50,159 --> 00:22:55,120
completing scenario

665
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,799
yeah that is something i've it you know

666
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,760
it might even be on that blog post it

667
00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:00,559
was just

668
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:03,360
months ago and i never

669
00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:04,640
never put two and two together but um

670
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:07,120
yeah that is something i've read that

671
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,159
and obviously would absolutely

672
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:11,600
support and i think it was an example of

673
00:23:10,159 --> 00:23:13,600
the example i saw maybe this is one i

674
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,600
ever made up but it was around um

675
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,880
the players are investigating a murder

676
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,559
or something so they go to the crime

677
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,320
scene and they're trying to find out you

678
00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:23,039
know do a sherlock holmes essentially

679
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,520
and find out what what the deal is and

680
00:23:23,039 --> 00:23:27,840
perhaps the murderer is the

681
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,640
the baker's apprentice

682
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,200
so

683
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,760
an example of the three clues was maybe

684
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:37,039
they find some flour

685
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,480
around that's fallen off of his is apron

686
00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:39,840
and you know they they might not

687
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,679
immediately say

688
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,120
flower equals baker equals baker's

689
00:23:41,679 --> 00:23:44,960
apprentice but there's that that's a

690
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,159
clue and of itself to stop tugging at

691
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,360
that thread

692
00:23:46,159 --> 00:23:49,600
another clue is perhaps there's a

693
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:51,200
delivery note because he used you know

694
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,880
oh i'm making a delivery here's my

695
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,279
delivery note that's been left on the

696
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,400
floor that yeah gives the address of

697
00:23:55,279 --> 00:23:58,559
the bakers

698
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,080
oh suddenly i'm starting to put

699
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:02,080
two and two together and i'm getting a

700
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,640
number here and then the third is maybe

701
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,200
you know a basin at a basket of fresh

702
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,799
loaves that he was hiding the sword in

703
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,559
the deal the dagger in that he used to

704
00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:12,720
commit the murder yeah that's a good

705
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:14,320
example hey thank you i kind of half

706
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,440
half remembered half made that up on the

707
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:19,360
spot so thank you that's not bad

708
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,520
i mean definitely so i got that credit i

709
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:23,200
got credit somebody from in the past and

710
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,799
but it is it's it's probably

711
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,960
misremembered poorly on my part but

712
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:28,320
thank you nonetheless but um i think the

713
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,640
point is is that like

714
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,240
even one of those is still good like

715
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,159
with the right team and you know

716
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,760
insightful players which i imagine you'd

717
00:24:34,159 --> 00:24:38,000
have in that kind of setting

718
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,520
even one of those is enough to get them

719
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,919
on the right track but all three

720
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,159
together and a they feel chuffed that

721
00:24:41,919 --> 00:24:46,559
hey we've or our characters have managed

722
00:24:44,159 --> 00:24:48,320
to find three clues that's really good

723
00:24:46,559 --> 00:24:49,840
which just improves yeah increases that

724
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,919
confidence level and well it's

725
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,440
definitely the baker's then let's go

726
00:24:51,919 --> 00:24:55,840
exactly and they get this sense of

727
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,799
reward because if you just use your gm

728
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,400
fiat

729
00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:00,480
to say yeah you found the clue you found

730
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,559
the bloody glove you can go ahead the

731
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,400
scenario continues and as it's it's

732
00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:05,760
decent design i i won't know good that

733
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,679
argued that

734
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,120
but uh it's not as rewarding as as the

735
00:25:07,679 --> 00:25:12,240
players finding

736
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:15,039
one two or three clues by themselves

737
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,039
yeah it's a good point actually yeah for

738
00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:20,480
expedience or you know if you're

739
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:22,559
improvising hard then i would not

740
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,720
you know criticize anybody for doing a

741
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:26,320
you found like you found the clue

742
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,919
without rolling because

743
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,120
in those dies that you i know as a dm

744
00:25:27,919 --> 00:25:32,000
like in those dire situations you're

745
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,760
willing to throw anything at the wall

746
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,720
just to make it look like you know keep

747
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,400
those plates spinning but obviously in a

748
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,760
pre-planned thing yeah absolutely you

749
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,279
roll it through but

750
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,279
what i guess is a follow-up to that

751
00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:45,440
would be you would might want to vary

752
00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:48,159
the difficulty on those so maybe that

753
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,720
the likelihood of finding one is

754
00:25:48,159 --> 00:25:52,640
quite high you know a scaling difficulty

755
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,960
the middle one is maybe 50 50 and the

756
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,200
third clue is maybe you know 25 chance

757
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,600
of finding it just to um

758
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,120
obviously increase the likelihood of

759
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,120
something happening but it's all set up

760
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:07,440
ahead of time you roll on the open

761
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:08,799
transparency reward plus plus right yeah

762
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,720
so

763
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:12,080
yeah i mean i could rent about a single

764
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,000
point of failure all day because it's

765
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,840
just i just have to like

766
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,520
cringe whenever i'm everyone's

767
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,520
experienced a single point of failure

768
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,480
yeah everyone's had that

769
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,600
yeah

770
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,440
and another another thing i wanted to

771
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,000
mention earlier on about how i started

772
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,559
rolling in the open is

773
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,039
something that i didn't necessarily

774
00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:33,760
well not didn't necessarily i absolutely

775
00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:36,880
didn't think about until it hit me

776
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:39,600
was there are items in the ind5e

777
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:42,240
that have random elements to them that

778
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:45,279
aren't even necessarily dice tables so

779
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:49,279
there are things like a helmet of

780
00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:50,840
brilliance and necklace of prayer beads

781
00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:53,200
which have

782
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,480
1d6 gems in them

783
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,799
and

784
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,200
i planned on giving

785
00:26:56,799 --> 00:27:00,080
both of those items to my players

786
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,799
and

787
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,000
immediately i went to my gm friend

788
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:06,480
confidant

789
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,480
and said and this is a crutch this is

790
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,640
this is you know this is a failure and

791
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,120
my point that i didn't just roll but i

792
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,799
said him oh god what if what if they get

793
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:17,760
all six gems and what if it's just one

794
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:19,200
gem and oh no and i was absolutely

795
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,279
falling foul of what we were discussing

796
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,520
earlier on like i was meta gaming and

797
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:25,760
making more work for myself when i

798
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,159
didn't really need to so in the end

799
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,000
i just got my dice tower got my phone

800
00:27:28,159 --> 00:27:32,080
and recorded the dice rolling so i sent

801
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,760
it to the player and said look there's

802
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,600
oh yeah you know i rolled for the number

803
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,279
of gems and then you roll then there is

804
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,120
a dice table for

805
00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:40,960
what the gems correspond to what spells

806
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:43,120
they have so ended up running like five

807
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,440
d20s at once recorded it on whatsapp

808
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,720
sent in the video and said they go 17 14

809
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,799
seven and six

810
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,320
that means you've got this spell this

811
00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:51,520
they'll build a spot on this spell and

812
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,279
then it was actually quite a good

813
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,480
discussion with him then because hey

814
00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:56,720
you've actually been pretty lucky this

815
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,320
is cool like i'm happy for you because

816
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,720
you've got a couple decent decent spells

817
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,320
here yeah yeah exactly exactly yeah

818
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,000
precisely so that was that was i was

819
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,440
quite happy i was like hey the law of

820
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,039
averages means

821
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,279
you know inevitably it was going to be

822
00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:11,039
pretty middle of the road anyway

823
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:12,880
and i needn't have feared

824
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:14,080
the worst case scenario of what if he

825
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,159
gets a million

826
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,120
wishes which is impossible but it's you

827
00:28:16,159 --> 00:28:18,559
know

828
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,760
it's that level of

829
00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:21,360
of fear

830
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,480
um which you know didn't happen and that

831
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:25,440
was a big

832
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,399
that was a big step for me to be like

833
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,919
because

834
00:28:26,399 --> 00:28:31,039
you know it's taken out of my control to

835
00:28:27,919 --> 00:28:33,520
a certain extent and i am quite

836
00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:36,000
particular with my story shall we say

837
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:39,039
yeah i understand that's that's normal i

838
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,520
think um i've had to learn abandoning

839
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:44,480
that sense of control as well

840
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,000
i wonder where that comes from then i

841
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,159
think the fact that

842
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,760
you and i have had it and talk about it

843
00:28:48,159 --> 00:28:51,520
and there's articles about it and you

844
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,799
know you're tweeting

845
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,799
all about it

846
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,480
that essentially it's that abandonment

847
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:58,240
of control

848
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,640
from from the gm's perspective where

849
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,440
does that where is that born from that

850
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,440
preciousness of control i'm now thinking

851
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,559
out loud here but

852
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,240
that's

853
00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:13,039
i i think it's it's because um

854
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:16,720
well everything uh all the commercial

855
00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:19,360
modules are about telling a story

856
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,679
and if you want to play that module

857
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,520
you need to follow the story and

858
00:29:21,679 --> 00:29:25,440
usually they're pretty much

859
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,840
a big railroad

860
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:30,320
uh curse of straw is a notable exception

861
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:33,279
and i believe uh tomb of violation as

862
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:36,000
well i'm not really sure

863
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:37,760
but many many modules especially uh the

864
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,880
pathfinder first edition

865
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,720
the many

866
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,240
modules they made for that

867
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:46,480
we usually railroads starting in the inn

868
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,640
and you go to the goblins lair and from

869
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,840
there on you go to the wizards tower and

870
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,640
so on

871
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,360
and

872
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,360
you need to retain control

873
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,399
all the players go off track

874
00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,880
but that's not necessarily a problem as

875
00:29:58,399 --> 00:30:03,039
far as i'm concerned i've had to learn

876
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,039
letting go of that idea and when the

877
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:06,720
players went off track just say okay you

878
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:08,720
abandon the railroad

879
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,559
and uh we'll

880
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,720
we'll use a different module or we'll

881
00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:14,640
use some homebrew content to flesh out

882
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,799
where you're going next

883
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:22,640
and that's actually it makes for a more

884
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:24,159
realistic isn't the right word um

885
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,600
it's more fun that's something i can

886
00:30:24,159 --> 00:30:28,960
definitely say i found it more fun

887
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,960
uh so

888
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,679
one thing you mentioned in your

889
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,080
in your talk on fudging dice is your

890
00:30:33,679 --> 00:30:37,440
tools not rules policy so i was

891
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,279
wondering if you could uh tell us a

892
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,159
little bit more about that

893
00:30:39,279 --> 00:30:45,440
yeah tools are rules means

894
00:30:42,159 --> 00:30:47,120
basically all these gm or dm techniques

895
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,480
you read about online because there are

896
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,640
many many techniques floating about

897
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,559
none of them in themselves

898
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,440
help you be a better dm

899
00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:58,880
they're just things you should consider

900
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,200
at least

901
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:04,000
and then learn to adapt into your own

902
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,000
games because even the information i put

903
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,519
in my threads like uh always rolling the

904
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,080
open or rolling the open as much as

905
00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:11,519
possible that might not work in your own

906
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,360
campaign

907
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:15,679
so what you want to do is you want to

908
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,799
take that advice

909
00:31:15,679 --> 00:31:18,480
use it

910
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:20,480
a little at first perhaps some more

911
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,279
later see what works

912
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,279
and in the end the goal is is just to to

913
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:27,600
have more fun at the table that's it

914
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:29,679
that that's all there is to it

915
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,679
yeah i very much see

916
00:31:29,679 --> 00:31:33,600
myself as a gm as having a talk here i

917
00:31:31,679 --> 00:31:36,080
think i mentioned it earlier on like a

918
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,679
tool belt that as i'm playing i can pull

919
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,760
out a tool and

920
00:31:37,679 --> 00:31:41,039
apply it in some way or even you know

921
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,480
not even during the game just in

922
00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:43,919
campaign prep and

923
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,760
story you know world building and stuff

924
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:47,360
you can oh let me think about it in that

925
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,440
way and let me think about what three

926
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,360
clues to put here maybe it needs five or

927
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,399
maybe it doesn't need any and you know

928
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,320
that

929
00:31:52,399 --> 00:31:56,320
thought process there of

930
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,640
what is

931
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,640
good for this particular context is

932
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,799
everything right yes exactly that's what

933
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,010
i was going to say context is everything

934
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:08,339
really

935
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:08,339
[Music]

936
00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:16,320
[Music]

937
00:32:13,679 --> 00:32:17,519
uh one thing you mentioned

938
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,840
uh we talked about earlier and you

939
00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:21,840
mentioned in your threads was

940
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,440
dice tables some random tables and i

941
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,640
know i know some of the magical items i

942
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:29,279
mentioned do but the more primary

943
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,159
way of dice tables is either encounters

944
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:32,960
or

945
00:32:30,159 --> 00:32:34,399
treasure or i feel like a missing one

946
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,039
you know combat counters or road

947
00:32:34,399 --> 00:32:40,080
encounters treasure um

948
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:41,440
um wild magic was an example i used yes

949
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,279
yeah

950
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,399
reincarnation tables oh because you come

951
00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:48,480
back as a different race yes for example

952
00:32:46,399 --> 00:32:50,960
so yeah is that fudging

953
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,600
well to me yes i mean it was it was when

954
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,679
i read that i said i thought to myself

955
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,559
wow that's weird that someone would

956
00:32:55,679 --> 00:33:00,320
fudge those dice rolls because

957
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:01,360
the whole reason you've got those tables

958
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,240
is because you don't know what you're

959
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,240
doing or you know you you want

960
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,039
it to be decided for you

961
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,480
so then to change that means you've

962
00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:12,000
you've already decided what you want to

963
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,000
happen so it was this weird kind of

964
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,760
counter intuitive

965
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,200
you've answered your own question

966
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,480
it's where things get fuzzy in my

967
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,120
opinion the world

968
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,200
um i believe what i wrote in the thread

969
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,399
was because i've been thinking about it

970
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,399
uh

971
00:33:24,399 --> 00:33:27,519
for quite some time before writing that

972
00:33:26,399 --> 00:33:29,760
of course

973
00:33:27,519 --> 00:33:32,080
um the way i saw it was

974
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,399
these these random tables basically

975
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,840
there's two types to me you have the

976
00:33:34,399 --> 00:33:39,039
creative ones

977
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:41,440
which are actually the gm

978
00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:42,720
delegating their fear to a table so as

979
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,640
you mentioned

980
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,679
uh they say well i don't know what's

981
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,559
going to happen i'm going to roll on the

982
00:33:45,679 --> 00:33:48,640
table

983
00:33:46,559 --> 00:33:50,240
so they're purely creative

984
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,720
and then you have some which are purely

985
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,399
mechanical for example the the weird

986
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,840
magic

987
00:33:54,399 --> 00:33:59,840
fallout table or what's called the

988
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,360
purely creative ones

989
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,480
for me they're just

990
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,320
they're the enabling kind of the unfiat

991
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,200
it doesn't really matter whether you

992
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,200
roll or choose so

993
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,200
if you for example if you're using a

994
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,839
random dungeon generator table

995
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:19,040
to see what's around the next corner

996
00:34:15,839 --> 00:34:21,119
whether you roll a corridor or a room or

997
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,960
you choose either of those

998
00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:24,399
it doesn't really matter the players

999
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,000
still have the same choice do we go

1000
00:34:24,399 --> 00:34:27,040
there or not

1001
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,560
um and then you have the purely

1002
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,159
mechanical ones

1003
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,919
so like the

1004
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:34,560
the wild magic i keep forgetting the

1005
00:34:31,919 --> 00:34:36,399
name yeah well just say weird magic

1006
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,520
the wild magic

1007
00:34:36,399 --> 00:34:39,599
those

1008
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,520
are actually the results also of a

1009
00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:44,159
player's choice

1010
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,879
because the player factors in

1011
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:48,240
every single effect that can happen as a

1012
00:34:46,879 --> 00:34:50,079
result of their choice so they want to

1013
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:52,000
cast wild magic

1014
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:54,560
then they accepted

1015
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,599
whatever can happen

1016
00:34:54,560 --> 00:35:00,960
so i wouldn't fudge those because

1017
00:34:57,599 --> 00:35:02,800
you're affecting the result of a choice

1018
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,520
but then there's there's these weird in

1019
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,119
between situations uh like

1020
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,960
wandering monsters

1021
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:11,599
because wandering monsters on one hand

1022
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,599
they're creative because they they help

1023
00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:16,079
shape the environment to help set a

1024
00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:18,000
certain theme

1025
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:19,220
but they also have a mechanical

1026
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,720
component so

1027
00:35:19,220 --> 00:35:22,720
[Music]

1028
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:25,200
and that's a difficult one and

1029
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:28,079
i believe i wrote there that as a gm you

1030
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,760
should consider why you want to fudge

1031
00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:32,079
that if you want to fudge it because

1032
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,560
it's it's a bad fit i mean is it a white

1033
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:36,800
dragon in the middle of the desert well

1034
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,720
perhaps you can fudge

1035
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,480
and choose something else simply

1036
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,599
or is it because

1037
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,960
you want to change something

1038
00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:44,240
mechanically you want to up the

1039
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,440
challenge you want to decrease the

1040
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,960
challenge

1041
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,240
in the latter case

1042
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,839
perhaps not fudge in the former i like

1043
00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:53,599
to give myself a couple of seconds to

1044
00:35:51,839 --> 00:35:55,680
see if i can't come up with some

1045
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:57,359
creative reason to accept the result

1046
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,920
anyway

1047
00:35:57,359 --> 00:36:01,920
but of course i like most games i want

1048
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:03,520
to keep the game flowing so if i can't

1049
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,040
come up with something in in three to

1050
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,960
five seconds

1051
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,839
i choose something else

1052
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,320
so the first not really fudging

1053
00:36:09,839 --> 00:36:13,920
i can i can accept that it's player

1054
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,160
choice enabling

1055
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,839
the seconds

1056
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,400
it's fudging

1057
00:36:17,839 --> 00:36:21,599
hmm there's a lot to a lot to unpack

1058
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,800
there

1059
00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:25,839
man this is tricky it's a tricky topic

1060
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,320
and it's

1061
00:36:25,839 --> 00:36:30,960
you can see why it spawns so much

1062
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,560
discussion of

1063
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,839
it almost feels like that wizards of the

1064
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,520
coast are just

1065
00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:37,280
like deliberately

1066
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,960
not referencing the elephant in the room

1067
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,640
like deliberately distancing themselves

1068
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,240
and just being like

1069
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,160
we're not going to think about too much

1070
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,119
about this thing because it's just going

1071
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,800
to be

1072
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:49,200
a very interesting

1073
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,119
discussion um

1074
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,119
it's possible but i have the impression

1075
00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:55,680
the words of the coast and and

1076
00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:58,000
actually most publishers

1077
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,599
they are for fudging

1078
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,440
i i have this impression that this may

1079
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:03,680
be this may be wrong

1080
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,680
but i think they they advocate budging

1081
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,760
because it helps new dms and that's

1082
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,119
actually a very good reason to fudge if

1083
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,000
you're just

1084
00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:14,000
getting your feet wet and and well

1085
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,400
when i started out i made lots of

1086
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,160
mistakes and i'm sure everyone did

1087
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,160
then it's better to fudge than let the

1088
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:23,359
game grind down to a halt so it helps

1089
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,440
gm's gain a bit of confidence i think

1090
00:37:23,359 --> 00:37:28,480
and and not make mistakes

1091
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:31,040
uh party killers or campaign killers

1092
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,960
just helps to move the game along

1093
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,920
it's one of those things though that can

1094
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,760
be

1095
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,440
a crutch or you know you pick it up in

1096
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,839
your formative years

1097
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,119
and then it becomes part of your staple

1098
00:37:39,839 --> 00:37:43,520
of

1099
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:45,599
work then so it works now and then 10

1100
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,960
years later you're still doing it but

1101
00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:48,240
even though

1102
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,720
you don't need to anymore because you're

1103
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:52,560
actually a darn fantastic gm at this

1104
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:54,640
point so you you could probably do it

1105
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,320
without it but it's just built into you

1106
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,240
at that point because

1107
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,240
it worked 10 years ago when i was

1108
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:00,960
learning so i guess it's a good thing to

1109
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:03,280
do

1110
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,400
of course and it's an easy fix

1111
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,760
um

1112
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,680
that's a good point because one of my

1113
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,680
notes here i was trying to put it off

1114
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,280
for a little while but the uh about

1115
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,200
maybe where we

1116
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,640
just disagree somewhat or maybe not

1117
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,800
disagree too strong word but have

1118
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:20,560
different thoughts on is

1119
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:22,880
at low levels but now here's my problem

1120
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,599
here's what i'm trying to untangle

1121
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,280
is it actually at low levels

1122
00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:29,920
as in character levels

1123
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,839
or is it was actually

1124
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,079
my experience at the time was i didn't

1125
00:38:31,839 --> 00:38:35,040
have you know i was a low level dm at

1126
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:36,480
the time

1127
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,680
and it's just because the correlation

1128
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,839
there is

1129
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,599
one to one you know they were the

1130
00:38:39,839 --> 00:38:44,560
characters at low level and i'd also

1131
00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:46,800
just started dming um

1132
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,800
but it's easy to conflate the two

1133
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,240
but in reality it's

1134
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,079
i didn't use

1135
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:53,440
fudging the dice because they were low

1136
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:56,240
levels i was actually using it because i

1137
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:59,359
didn't know any better and that

1138
00:38:56,240 --> 00:39:01,440
you can't get around those tpk as with a

1139
00:38:59,359 --> 00:39:03,119
little bit of thought and experience

1140
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,359
i'm kind of convincing myself of that

1141
00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:06,480
answer now but what are your thoughts on

1142
00:39:05,359 --> 00:39:10,160
the uh

1143
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:12,880
early level life support you mean yeah

1144
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,400
that's that's expectation management

1145
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,000
i think that depends on the kind of game

1146
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,280
you want to run

1147
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,359
i personally i like a bit of a bit of

1148
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,960
danger and lethality in my games

1149
00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:26,000
so when my players set out in cursive

1150
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,440
strat they started out on level one

1151
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:32,160
and i tell them well i'm gonna roll in

1152
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,280
public on the table uh if if you're dead

1153
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,720
you're dead

1154
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,560
so that was setting setting the

1155
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,520
expectations already

1156
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,680
and

1157
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,359
i think we lost one player in the

1158
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,920
meantime

1159
00:39:41,359 --> 00:39:45,599
um but of course if if the kind of story

1160
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,040
or the campaign you want to run

1161
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:48,320
is something which really starts to

1162
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,200
unfold that's

1163
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,800
just saying level two three or you want

1164
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,240
to to first give the players the

1165
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,640
bearings a bit

1166
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:57,760
i can understand that that you want to

1167
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,920
uh

1168
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,839
test some some life supports

1169
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:04,560
in the form of fudging

1170
00:40:01,839 --> 00:40:07,359
so i understand that

1171
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,280
but i still think that there are

1172
00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:11,520
well as a dm

1173
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,359
there are different ways to

1174
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,960
have that life support in place without

1175
00:40:13,359 --> 00:40:17,359
fudging the dice

1176
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,920
but of course it's much trickier because

1177
00:40:17,359 --> 00:40:21,200
the margin of error is so much smaller

1178
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,680
yes

1179
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,400
yeah you'll you're on the razor's edge

1180
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,160
there

1181
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,800
for a lot of that

1182
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,240
because just one mistake one uh one

1183
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,680
critical hit by a blood bear and they're

1184
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:33,359
gone

1185
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,119
do you think that is because that's

1186
00:40:33,359 --> 00:40:36,400
exactly the thought i had earlier on

1187
00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:37,440
when i was thinking about this episode

1188
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,119
was that

1189
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,040
people fight the dice because it's so

1190
00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:42,960
swingy i always say you know the first

1191
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,160
few levels are super swingy

1192
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,880
and that

1193
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,760
usually smooths out as you get into tier

1194
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,079
two

1195
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,359
uh there is much less swinging or

1196
00:40:50,079 --> 00:40:54,560
there's a lot more margin for error

1197
00:40:51,359 --> 00:40:56,319
shall we say you know revive the five uh

1198
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,240
kill wounds potions you know all that

1199
00:40:56,319 --> 00:41:01,119
kind of stuff yeah exactly to smooth out

1200
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:03,359
that that swinginess but um

1201
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:05,440
it is swingy at low levels do you think

1202
00:41:03,359 --> 00:41:07,760
that is a failing of the framework do

1203
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:10,960
you think that's a failing of the rules

1204
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:13,200
or is that almost a necessary evil

1205
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,839
that's a tough question i think the

1206
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:18,000
failing of the rules

1207
00:41:15,839 --> 00:41:20,160
no not necessarily

1208
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,359
i suppose i i really haven't looked at

1209
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,280
it that way

1210
00:41:21,359 --> 00:41:25,599
because one thing i talked about in in

1211
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,280
the threads uh was that for combat

1212
00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:28,720
encounters

1213
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,400
it's

1214
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,880
and i do blame i blame video games for

1215
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:36,480
this uh like an old man ain't playing

1216
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:39,040
video games that many gm's

1217
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,160
set the stakes for combat encounters at

1218
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,920
death

1219
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,079
goblins come from the woods and they

1220
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,400
won't kill you

1221
00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:48,400
and if you're not prepared to accept a

1222
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,839
player death as a result of such an

1223
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,440
encounter

1224
00:41:49,839 --> 00:41:54,400
then you shouldn't set the stakes at

1225
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,720
play death because you control not only

1226
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,119
which encounters they they have

1227
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:01,599
but also the motives of those characters

1228
00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:04,480
so if if combat and swinging combat is

1229
00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:06,319
the problem at early levels

1230
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,079
my suggestion would be to change the

1231
00:42:06,319 --> 00:42:10,000
stakes simply put

1232
00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:11,359
so stop putting the players or stop

1233
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,000
putting the characters in situations

1234
00:42:11,359 --> 00:42:16,720
where only death is is a probable

1235
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,720
outcome of either party and that's what

1236
00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:21,920
i did in cursive strata i think because

1237
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:23,680
they recommend you start at third level

1238
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,880
but as i mentioned before i didn't do

1239
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,160
that

1240
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:30,000
but i simply didn't

1241
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,560
have everyone out to kill the pcs at

1242
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,160
first sight and that's helped a lot

1243
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,520
is that from your experience and

1244
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,960
knowledge of most of the published

1245
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,960
modules that

1246
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,720
that are released are they

1247
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,839
their first encounters let's take lost

1248
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:45,280
minds of

1249
00:42:41,839 --> 00:42:47,359
van delva i think um i i seem to recall

1250
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,359
the first combat and that is quite

1251
00:42:47,359 --> 00:42:51,599
kill or be killed i don't remember that

1252
00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:53,440
one i have it here but uh i i haven't

1253
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:55,359
played it yet so what about any others

1254
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,960
that you have experience with

1255
00:42:55,359 --> 00:42:59,280
those kind of first early encounters in

1256
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,040
the game are they often that

1257
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,599
kill or be killed or are there other

1258
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,520
avenues out from your experience well

1259
00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:07,839
from what i can recall most published

1260
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,280
modules an encounter is kill or be

1261
00:43:07,839 --> 00:43:11,119
killed

1262
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,280
that happens a lot

1263
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:15,359
so although it might not be a failing of

1264
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,960
the system or the rules of the

1265
00:43:15,359 --> 00:43:18,640
frameworks

1266
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,160
does that not suggest that the published

1267
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,880
modules

1268
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,640
encourage those failings in a way like

1269
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,720
uh emphasize

1270
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,000
those issues in the in the fact that

1271
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:30,880
it's kill or be killed at those low

1272
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,640
levels i i would say yes

1273
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,160
they they compound the problem a little

1274
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,119
uh that's the word i was looking for

1275
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,640
yeah compound the problem yeah precisely

1276
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:40,560
it's uh

1277
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,079
it's an interesting one i i kind of

1278
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,560
regret opening this little can of worms

1279
00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:46,160
now like

1280
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,400
as you bring me you know we're coming

1281
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,000
nearing the end of the episode and

1282
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,560
yeah it's one i hadn't really thought of

1283
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:55,520
too much um i know that i

1284
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,920
i have fudged dice in the past

1285
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,400
dice actually less so

1286
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,680
more often than not i'm fudging

1287
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,520
hp

1288
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,720
is

1289
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:09,520
my main like creature hp

1290
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:10,960
which is twofold one because i hate

1291
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,800
maths and

1292
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:16,319
my characters are level eight seem to be

1293
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:18,240
nine now and combat is quite complicated

1294
00:44:16,319 --> 00:44:19,920
uh you know with lots of imagine yeah

1295
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,520
lots of enemies lots of numbers flying

1296
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,880
around i really don't have it in my

1297
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,640
mental space at the time along with

1298
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,839
doing all the flavor and environmental

1299
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,640
effects and

1300
00:44:25,839 --> 00:44:30,319
so on and so on to really

1301
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,319
i haven't got a good system yet for

1302
00:44:30,319 --> 00:44:34,960
really managing all the hp so

1303
00:44:32,319 --> 00:44:37,040
sometimes i round you know the character

1304
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:40,079
says they hit for 24 i'm not okay that's

1305
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,720
20. yeah okay with my my mental

1306
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:44,079
reasoning behind that is that oh broadly

1307
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:45,920
over enough sessions it would all kind

1308
00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:48,800
of even out

1309
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,400
balance out you know sense yeah

1310
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,960
you know you know flip enough coins and

1311
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:55,520
it'll be 50 50. uh is is my mentality

1312
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,040
behind today today it's 24 to 20 but

1313
00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:01,200
tomorrow it's you know

1314
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:04,160
16 to 20. so you should go but i know

1315
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,680
that that is i get out of jail free on

1316
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,079
my part so

1317
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,599
what are your thoughts on that well i

1318
00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:12,960
think your way is consistent so

1319
00:45:11,599 --> 00:45:16,240
i think your logic is sound if you do

1320
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,440
that all the time then it will even out

1321
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:18,960
um and

1322
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,400
by the way it's it's important to keep

1323
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,839
the game flowing

1324
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,319
so if that helps you keep the game

1325
00:45:21,839 --> 00:45:26,720
flowing that's a win to me

1326
00:45:24,319 --> 00:45:27,680
so is that fudging not really because

1327
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:28,960
you're not

1328
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,359
you're not constantly pushing the

1329
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,760
encounter go one way or the other you're

1330
00:45:31,359 --> 00:45:35,839
just rounding up or rounding down to

1331
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,920
make things move along smoothly so

1332
00:45:35,839 --> 00:45:40,960
that's that's fine in my book

1333
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,960
and i well my players are only level

1334
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,880
five at the moment so i i haven't

1335
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,680
encountered the same problem before

1336
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,480
but

1337
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:51,440
i have thought about it and the thing i

1338
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:53,920
plan on doing is just giving my players

1339
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,280
notepads or dice or whatever and tell

1340
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,920
them to keep track of their points for

1341
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,680
me of the creatures other creatures oh

1342
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,280
wow it also gives them some sense of

1343
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,640
achievement

1344
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,359
it gives them something to do at the

1345
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,280
table less distractions less less using

1346
00:46:05,359 --> 00:46:10,000
the phone and all that

1347
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,760
um and the hit points don't need to be a

1348
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,400
secret for me

1349
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:16,880
yeah that is bold okay here we go here

1350
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:19,200
we go 50 minutes in and we're at the big

1351
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,680
big juicy boys here we go what you could

1352
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,920
do is also uh count the other way around

1353
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,680
just um have the characters add up the

1354
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,000
hit points instead of subtracting from

1355
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,160
uh from the total and then they won't

1356
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,160
know the total hit points until you say

1357
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,000
well he's dead

1358
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,839
yeah that might be the concession that i

1359
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,760
would make if i was to introduce this

1360
00:46:35,839 --> 00:46:39,280
which i might well do it moves the game

1361
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,599
along

1362
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:44,240
uh from one of the other episodes

1363
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:46,800
uh enhancements we talked about

1364
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:48,000
delegating tasks to players so that's

1365
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,880
actually something i've that's you know

1366
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,480
that's

1367
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,319
literally something i've now done you

1368
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,079
know i had that discussion and with

1369
00:46:52,319 --> 00:46:55,599
christian and

1370
00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:57,440
since then i've actually adopted that

1371
00:46:55,599 --> 00:46:59,520
with my players so now i've got one

1372
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,240
player who's like the note taker one

1373
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:05,280
player who is tracking magical items for

1374
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:06,319
the party and one is doing buffs and

1375
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,440
debuffs

1376
00:47:06,319 --> 00:47:09,839
so it's not

1377
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,280
too much of a stretch to say okay i need

1378
00:47:09,839 --> 00:47:12,400
another one of you guys like it was six

1379
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,680
of them so there's enough of them to go

1380
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,240
around to say

1381
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:18,640
one of you you're counting hp for the

1382
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:19,920
the damage should i say why not

1383
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,640
interesting

1384
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:25,040
interesting i say rubbing my hands

1385
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,920
together

1386
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:30,480
yeah that will be a huge

1387
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,880
weight off of my mind again mainly just

1388
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,640
for the expedience just because every

1389
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,079
time there's damage done by the players

1390
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:39,359
which is a lot

1391
00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:40,640
i have to go up stop let me count and do

1392
00:47:39,359 --> 00:47:42,160
a number and

1393
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,160
this that and the other

1394
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,599
whereas you could just flip that around

1395
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,160
to maybe one or two players you could

1396
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:50,319
split it to say yeah you do the ghouls

1397
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,319
you did skeletons something like that

1398
00:47:50,319 --> 00:47:53,680
yeah yeah precisely yeah and every time

1399
00:47:52,319 --> 00:47:54,800
it gets damaged you just tell me what

1400
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,079
the number is

1401
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,800
and then that you've completely

1402
00:47:56,079 --> 00:48:00,000
mitigated meta gaming

1403
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,680
some people aren't going to like that i

1404
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,000
think because it

1405
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,520
it takes away some of the not even not

1406
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,800
even the mystery but it takes away some

1407
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,240
of the romance

1408
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,000
of

1409
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:12,079
that question of well how is he looking

1410
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,920
oh he's looking beat up and he's on his

1411
00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:15,680
last legs you know it

1412
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,040
gives them a little bit more but again

1413
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,800
it's their context is everything right

1414
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,720
if your players aren't in it for the

1415
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,160
true for the romance it might not be for

1416
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:25,040
everyone

1417
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,880
but i think yeah it just it saves time

1418
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,800
at the table and it frees up your brain

1419
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,880
power to to go with the cool

1420
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,839
descriptions and keep the flow of combat

1421
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,720
going

1422
00:48:31,839 --> 00:48:34,960
so

1423
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:37,119
for me it's a small price to pay

1424
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,520
yeah i am quite a fan of it was a i

1425
00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:40,480
think it was an angry gm angry dm post

1426
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,599
that was

1427
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,319
talked about

1428
00:48:41,599 --> 00:48:45,599
a flow of combat is like um a dolphin

1429
00:48:44,319 --> 00:48:46,960
like swimming you know you you come up

1430
00:48:45,599 --> 00:48:48,720
over the water you break the water you

1431
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,480
dive underneath you come up you dive

1432
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:52,640
underneath so it's that

1433
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,800
when you stitch the turns together yeah

1434
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,800
you describe okay

1435
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,960
john you've just seen your party member

1436
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,680
james be slashed across his face with

1437
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,040
this

1438
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,559
what are you doing

1439
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,760
and then you got your duck up back

1440
00:49:02,559 --> 00:49:05,680
underneath then when you come back out

1441
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,760
again you you keep it going and i'd much

1442
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:10,079
rather focus on that

1443
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:13,680
than i would let me get my excel

1444
00:49:10,079 --> 00:49:17,040
spreadsheet and mark off this and

1445
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:20,319
uh hang on let me open the vtt and

1446
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,760
what's 17 minus 12 is this okay enter

1447
00:49:20,319 --> 00:49:24,400
like

1448
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,480
breaks up the flow and also i think

1449
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,319
players will love doing that

1450
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,960
i mean i can name two players at my

1451
00:49:28,319 --> 00:49:32,400
table who love keeping track of uh their

1452
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,000
kills

1453
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,800
and so they'll love keeping track of hit

1454
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,640
points as well hmm yeah i just i'm just

1455
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,240
thinking about a way that's doable with

1456
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,160
my current virtual tabletop setup as

1457
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:43,280
well in terms of counting up rather than

1458
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:46,640
counting down

1459
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,160
and have the same effect so

1460
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:51,440
in the in the in the virtual tabletop i

1461
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:54,000
use monsters their their health isn't

1462
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,280
displayed on them they have a a bin

1463
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,599
again funnily enough a bit like the

1464
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,480
gloomhaven descriptor of initiative they

1465
00:49:57,599 --> 00:49:59,680
have a

1466
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,319
injured

1467
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,599
barely injured heavily injured wounded

1468
00:50:02,319 --> 00:50:05,520
you know and it's a percentage of their

1469
00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:06,960
hp total but you could obviously i could

1470
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,920
flip that the maths on its head and it

1471
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,160
would i would count up it would go 10 is

1472
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,000
not her and obviously 90 of hp is

1473
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,680
heavily wounded so that could still work

1474
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,920
you could still do it

1475
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,720
that that's on my notes that's on my my

1476
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,800
notes for opening next session

1477
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:25,040
this is what we're going to try but to

1478
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,359
put a nice bow in it as we've said a

1479
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,720
couple times it's it's that case of

1480
00:50:27,359 --> 00:50:30,880
as you said

1481
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:33,520
try it out try a couple times maybe it

1482
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:35,520
sticks maybe it doesn't but without

1483
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:38,240
at least trying you'll never know

1484
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,319
yeah and make a few tweaks if necessary

1485
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:41,839
but just just find out what works best

1486
00:50:40,319 --> 00:50:44,319
in your group

1487
00:50:41,839 --> 00:50:46,960
i've also tried out uh many things i

1488
00:50:44,319 --> 00:50:49,280
have this homebrew pathfinder campaign

1489
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,280
and that's really it was my playground

1490
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,640
for trying out new new things new

1491
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:56,640
structures

1492
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:59,280
and well i don't think 50 percent of

1493
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,520
things i tried really took

1494
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,040
but those that did improve the game

1495
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,359
so it's just uh

1496
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,680
trying see what we're throwing stuff at

1497
00:51:05,359 --> 00:51:09,280
the wall and steve see what sticks

1498
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,040
which makes it worthwhile the ones that

1499
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,599
have improved the game that's a net you

1500
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,400
know benefit there for little to no cost

1501
00:51:13,599 --> 00:51:15,599
so

1502
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,359
absolutely

1503
00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:19,440
try and have a look at these

1504
00:51:17,359 --> 00:51:22,079
systemic problems that are causing you

1505
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,760
to maybe fudge dice to i'm now trying to

1506
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:26,559
you know leverage us back on the back on

1507
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,559
the railroad uh

1508
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,800
to look at those you know lower level

1509
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,720
problems that are maybe leading you down

1510
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,800
the garden path of

1511
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:36,480
what's another you know after all why

1512
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:39,599
shouldn't i fudge another dice here you

1513
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,839
know that mentality is is often uh it

1514
00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:44,480
can be an inhibitor

1515
00:51:41,839 --> 00:51:48,800
but to give an example funny anecdote um

1516
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:51,440
of how swingy combat is is um

1517
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,440
i took a friend uh jamie he's been in a

1518
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,839
couple of episodes before

1519
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,359
uh through his first d d experience it

1520
00:51:55,839 --> 00:51:58,960
was it was one-on-one

1521
00:51:57,359 --> 00:52:00,240
i was his dm

1522
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,559
and

1523
00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:03,839
the combat obviously like it's a known

1524
00:52:02,559 --> 00:52:05,440
fact that obviously combat we've

1525
00:52:03,839 --> 00:52:07,520
discussed is swingy

1526
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,760
and it really breaks down

1527
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:12,480
basically with like two characters and

1528
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,240
then past seven characters it i think

1529
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,800
wizards of themselves have said

1530
00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:18,559
the system isn't designed for that many

1531
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,400
or that for you like it's that's not a

1532
00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:22,400
secret that's just you know that's the

1533
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,079
limits of the maths right it's

1534
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,559
something's got to give somewhere yeah

1535
00:52:24,079 --> 00:52:28,400
so one i think he was even level one i

1536
00:52:26,559 --> 00:52:29,839
might have said level two at that point

1537
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,240
but it was one obviously one player

1538
00:52:29,839 --> 00:52:33,760
character level two and i wanted him to

1539
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:35,280
get a taste of

1540
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,160
rolling dice

1541
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,680
and you know having combat in quotes

1542
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,440
and the best thing i could come up with

1543
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,720
was i think for

1544
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:48,559
like three cats or something in a field

1545
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:50,559
in a meadow um okay like cr0 cats you

1546
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:52,319
know like five hp

1547
00:52:50,559 --> 00:52:54,640
you know plus zero to hit

1548
00:52:52,319 --> 00:52:56,559
one d4 slashing damage

1549
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,079
and that that was what was maybe

1550
00:52:56,559 --> 00:52:59,599
balanced for that

1551
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:01,520
and even that was like

1552
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:03,599
he could die but it just it just makes

1553
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,680
me smile because i'm like how absurd it

1554
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:06,640
is he's still an adventurer he's still

1555
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,640
like

1556
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,559
someone who's better than the average

1557
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,660
person even still could die to some

1558
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:12,960
house cats like

1559
00:53:11,660 --> 00:53:15,520
[Laughter]

1560
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:18,160
well yeah i i agree those are the limits

1561
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,359
of the system i think yeah yeah that was

1562
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,450
a real like

1563
00:53:19,359 --> 00:53:23,200
bleeding edge of

1564
00:53:20,450 --> 00:53:26,400
[Laughter]

1565
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:28,079
stretching it as much as it would go

1566
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,079
i know we've talked about like an awful

1567
00:53:28,079 --> 00:53:31,920
lot and all sorts of weird and wonderful

1568
00:53:30,079 --> 00:53:33,920
bits and bobs but

1569
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:36,480
i wanted to finish on

1570
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,640
from my perspective of

1571
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,880
a lot of the times you find yourself

1572
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:43,280
asking the question of should i

1573
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,119
fudge here or

1574
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,559
let's just say that was actually

1575
00:53:45,119 --> 00:53:49,040
another number

1576
00:53:46,559 --> 00:53:51,040
uh often because of

1577
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,640
other reasons that might not be obvious

1578
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,160
i think that was probably my biggest

1579
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,400
takeaway from

1580
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,680
your threads and the discussion today is

1581
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,079
like

1582
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,440
is that there's a system in um

1583
00:54:00,079 --> 00:54:03,680
i'm gonna get my business head on for a

1584
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,440
second in quality control and quality

1585
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,839
management in in organizations and

1586
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:10,240
production environments of the five wise

1587
00:54:07,839 --> 00:54:12,319
yeah i'm familiar with it yeah when a

1588
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:14,640
problem has been identified

1589
00:54:12,319 --> 00:54:16,319
you were late to ship a product you ask

1590
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,160
you know why we'll be late because we

1591
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:20,000
didn't get it into the storehouse

1592
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,520
in time okay well why didn't you get

1593
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,520
into this or housing time oh because the

1594
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,680
car broke down or why did the car break

1595
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,680
down oh because we didn't take it for

1596
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,800
its service why didn't we take it for a

1597
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,000
service

1598
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:34,319
you know and you keep asking why and

1599
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,880
when you hit five times that's that is

1600
00:54:34,319 --> 00:54:39,119
the actual thing you need to fix

1601
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,359
and i think a similar thing can be

1602
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:42,799
applied so why am i in a position where

1603
00:54:41,359 --> 00:54:44,720
i'm fine you know i'm having to fudge

1604
00:54:42,799 --> 00:54:46,640
this stuff absolutely that's actually a

1605
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:48,960
very good remark

1606
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,559
thank you this is uh to try and make an

1607
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,000
example up on the spot it's say say

1608
00:54:50,559 --> 00:54:53,839
you're in that position of okay i've

1609
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,839
just rolled a natural 20 and it's going

1610
00:54:53,839 --> 00:54:56,880
to kill this player character well why

1611
00:54:55,839 --> 00:54:58,319
am i

1612
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,240
why are they in a situation where that's

1613
00:54:58,319 --> 00:55:02,319
happened if you know you're not being

1614
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:04,000
transparent and it's a big enough a deal

1615
00:55:02,319 --> 00:55:05,599
at that point that it isn't just the

1616
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,680
players have done something ridiculously

1617
00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:08,640
stupid that

1618
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,960
you know

1619
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:12,400
to tangent again is i've recorded a

1620
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,760
really good episode on player agency

1621
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:18,079
with scott optional rule and

1622
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:20,559
he is a big proponent of

1623
00:55:18,079 --> 00:55:22,720
like the dice dictate the outcome

1624
00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:24,640
but the players have had agency up until

1625
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:26,480
that point and that mirrors what we were

1626
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,799
talking about earlier on that like the

1627
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:30,240
dice aren't taking away agency

1628
00:55:28,799 --> 00:55:31,440
that's the decisions they've made up

1629
00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:33,520
until that point right if they've

1630
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:36,640
decided to go into a fight naked on two

1631
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,400
hp then yeah they're gonna die

1632
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,920
and no amount of fudging is gonna get

1633
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,160
them out of that position

1634
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,760
so it's that five wise of oh okay but

1635
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:46,400
why is he why have they found themselves

1636
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,520
and if you know if the answer is

1637
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,160
because they've made some foolish

1638
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:52,000
decisions as player characters then well

1639
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,920
you shouldn't fudge exactly that's

1640
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:56,480
that's the nature of the game right

1641
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:58,799
you're trying to put put a band-aid on

1642
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,720
foolishness but say it's it's you know

1643
00:55:58,799 --> 00:56:02,480
no they've made the right decisions but

1644
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:05,200
it's a crit because oh it's actually a

1645
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:07,599
19 but this creature crits on it on a 19

1646
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,359
but then why why if we got that creature

1647
00:56:07,599 --> 00:56:11,359
in oh because it fit the environment but

1648
00:56:09,359 --> 00:56:12,400
then you know you can you can just get

1649
00:56:11,359 --> 00:56:13,839
to the

1650
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,319
you're probably better at articulating

1651
00:56:13,839 --> 00:56:18,160
it than i am but but basically there's a

1652
00:56:16,319 --> 00:56:20,559
probably an obfuscated reason why you

1653
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,480
found yourself in that situation yeah i

1654
00:56:20,559 --> 00:56:24,319
think also one of the main reasons is

1655
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,359
and we've discussed this uh a bit

1656
00:56:24,319 --> 00:56:27,680
earlier

1657
00:56:25,359 --> 00:56:29,520
is that many encounters

1658
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:31,440
differ to combat

1659
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,040
so you roll a random encounter

1660
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,160
some goblins jump from the bush and they

1661
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,839
attack you

1662
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,359
well the players have had no choice in

1663
00:56:35,839 --> 00:56:39,280
that so killing them in such an

1664
00:56:37,359 --> 00:56:42,079
encounter feels unfair to everyone at

1665
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:44,799
the table and you feel inclined to fudge

1666
00:56:42,079 --> 00:56:47,280
if on the other hand the goblins jump

1667
00:56:44,799 --> 00:56:49,520
from uh from the bush and they demand

1668
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:53,200
the characters surrender their gold

1669
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:54,960
or they kill them well that's choice

1670
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,960
again a very context sensitive choice

1671
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,720
based on your particular makeup of your

1672
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,960
party here

1673
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:03,119
yeah true but they can't render their

1674
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,720
gold

1675
00:57:03,119 --> 00:57:06,720
they can buy

1676
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:08,720
they can buy some time they don't need

1677
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:11,839
to do that but

1678
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:14,000
by not defaulting to combat and

1679
00:57:11,839 --> 00:57:17,119
starting or picking up the thread of the

1680
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:19,520
game just before that players can can

1681
00:57:17,119 --> 00:57:21,599
start angling for a better position they

1682
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,839
can start a distraction

1683
00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:26,240
so it goes deeper than that

1684
00:57:23,839 --> 00:57:27,760
and then if it all boils down to play a

1685
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,680
choice well

1686
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,079
if they made those choices that lead to

1687
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:34,559
that combat which leads to the idea

1688
00:57:32,079 --> 00:57:36,079
i wouldn't be inclined to fudge

1689
00:57:34,559 --> 00:57:37,680
but again the fight the five why is in

1690
00:57:36,079 --> 00:57:39,119
that situation is maybe they've made

1691
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,400
that choice you know

1692
00:57:39,119 --> 00:57:42,799
you know say for example it's not

1693
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,880
goblins say if it's some archdemon

1694
00:57:42,799 --> 00:57:46,799
for example big difference yeah it's

1695
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,079
yeah yeah it's

1696
00:57:46,799 --> 00:57:49,359
okay this hit from the ice team is going

1697
00:57:48,079 --> 00:57:51,839
to kill this player why is he going to

1698
00:57:49,359 --> 00:57:53,280
do that because he's super strong okay

1699
00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:55,359
why is he super strong because he's an

1700
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,960
archdemon okay well then why is he

1701
00:57:55,359 --> 00:57:58,240
fighting the players

1702
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,920
ah because

1703
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,760
the players have

1704
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:03,280
acted aggressively towards him okay well

1705
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,960
why did they act aggressively towards

1706
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,920
him

1707
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,920
that

1708
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:10,160
is the root problem there and in this

1709
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:13,280
example it's maybe it's because the gm

1710
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:15,040
didn't foreshadow it enough to say like

1711
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,359
this guy will kick your ass if you fight

1712
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,599
him yeah exactly so the player's

1713
00:58:17,359 --> 00:58:20,880
misconception there was we can take him

1714
00:58:19,599 --> 00:58:23,040
and then now you've painted yourself

1715
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:26,160
into a corner of okay well either they

1716
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:27,839
die or i have to really pull his punches

1717
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,559
making him weaker than he actually is

1718
00:58:27,839 --> 00:58:32,240
which is kind of deflating

1719
00:58:30,559 --> 00:58:34,160
or you've given yourself

1720
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,359
a lot more work to do some other

1721
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:38,079
non-combat

1722
00:58:35,359 --> 00:58:40,079
alternative imprisonment which is

1723
00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:42,640
iffy or

1724
00:58:40,079 --> 00:58:45,040
yeah that's something else yeah exactly

1725
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,960
so it's it's you keep asking why and

1726
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,960
it's oh because whoops

1727
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,160
i had him stop his toe when he met the

1728
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,520
players and the players thought that was

1729
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,880
funny and stupid and they thought they

1730
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,040
could take him when in reality no he

1731
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,839
commands hordes of demons who will tell

1732
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:59,599
you to shreds so uh

1733
00:58:57,839 --> 00:59:01,359
yeah

1734
00:58:59,599 --> 00:59:04,160
um is there anything else you wanted to

1735
00:59:01,359 --> 00:59:07,119
talk about um no i i think we've covered

1736
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,240
all uh all the fudging articles so

1737
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:10,319
i'm happy

1738
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,520
it's been a whistle stop tour of a lot

1739
00:59:10,319 --> 00:59:13,040
of

1740
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:16,000
like heavy

1741
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:18,079
ish and weighted topics i think there's

1742
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:18,960
a lot here to unpack that i don't think

1743
00:59:18,079 --> 00:59:21,280
either

1744
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,559
you know we could do in an hour or even

1745
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,319
you know your seven threads were

1746
00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:25,839
fantastic but even then it's you know

1747
00:59:24,319 --> 00:59:28,799
we've found new things to talk about and

1748
00:59:25,839 --> 00:59:31,440
stuff like it's just a brilliant i love

1749
00:59:28,799 --> 00:59:33,520
it because it's a crystalline example of

1750
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,960
something that seems benign

1751
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,240
but in reality

1752
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:39,040
really isn't

1753
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:41,440
in the long run it isn't i still think

1754
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,839
that in your example of the archdemon

1755
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:46,160
well perhaps at the point you should

1756
00:59:43,839 --> 00:59:47,359
fudge to save the players and those five

1757
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,240
why is it something you ask yourself

1758
00:59:47,359 --> 00:59:50,319
after

1759
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,839
and yes you take that to your next

1760
00:59:50,319 --> 00:59:54,319
encounter and you don't make the same

1761
00:59:51,839 --> 00:59:56,079
mistake yeah precisely sorry i'm not so

1762
00:59:54,319 --> 00:59:57,599
i don't mean to imply that like you whip

1763
00:59:56,079 --> 01:00:00,000
out your quality health and safety

1764
00:59:57,599 --> 01:00:02,240
manual in the middle of come back to

1765
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,319
start doing like a fish back as much

1766
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,920
deliciousness yeah no absolutely no

1767
01:00:04,319 --> 01:00:08,799
thank you for clarifying that yeah for

1768
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,720
sure for sure cool okay well

1769
01:00:08,799 --> 01:00:13,280
what a interesting

1770
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:16,000
rollercoaster swingy in of itself

1771
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:19,280
discussion on dice rules and

1772
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,880
methodologies and

1773
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,040
politics and

1774
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,960
personality types and all sorts of weird

1775
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,559
and wonderful stuff that gets bundled

1776
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,799
into this discussion so thank you very

1777
01:00:26,559 --> 01:00:31,040
much bart thanks for having me is there

1778
01:00:28,799 --> 01:00:35,200
anything you would like to plug

1779
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:37,040
um let's see i'm currently uh

1780
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,040
lucky enough to be involved in a few

1781
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:42,160
exciting projects

1782
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:44,000
most notably it's the terminator rpg

1783
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:46,319
which is now a kickstarter which you

1784
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,400
might want to check out um

1785
01:00:46,319 --> 01:00:50,319
i did just a very very small part of

1786
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,079
that i designed the hacking rules but

1787
01:00:50,319 --> 01:00:54,720
that's about it

1788
01:00:52,079 --> 01:00:58,160
another thing i've been working on is

1789
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:59,680
the gaia complex which is a cyberpunk uh

1790
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,680
role-playing game

1791
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,760
by hanza publishing

1792
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:06,880
that's also worth checking out it's got

1793
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:08,160
uh vampires and cyberpunk so that's

1794
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,280
that's a winning combination in my

1795
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,200
opinion

1796
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:12,880
and i do most of my work for raging

1797
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:15,040
swamp press

1798
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,440
i have some new adventures coming out

1799
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:20,000
soon i think next month

1800
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:22,480
and finally you can find me on twitter

1801
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,760
as at cryptographer

1802
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:26,880
and i post

1803
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:28,319
daily inspirational stuff or gm advice

1804
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:31,119
or just

1805
01:01:28,319 --> 01:01:32,640
things i i like all sorts yeah

1806
01:01:31,119 --> 01:01:34,559
absolutely all the links will be in the

1807
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,319
episode description

1808
01:01:34,559 --> 01:01:37,520
to everything we've discussed today

1809
01:01:36,319 --> 01:01:39,920
including those awesome sounding

1810
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:44,079
projects yeah you had me at vampires and

1811
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:46,559
cyberpunk as they say excellent

1812
01:01:44,079 --> 01:01:48,480
uh otherwise thank you again bart

1813
01:01:46,559 --> 01:01:50,640
yeah again thanks for having me that's

1814
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:54,400
all right uh thank you everyone to

1815
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:57,119
listening at home as usual please reach

1816
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:59,119
out on all the socials available on the

1817
01:01:57,119 --> 01:02:02,240
websites otherwise thank you all for

1818
01:01:59,119 --> 01:02:07,429
listening and good night

1819
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:07,429
[Music]