Agency

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to thinking critically

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a d and d discussion a podcast where we

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deep dive single word concepts or ideas

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within the dungeons and dragons 5e

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framework my name is danilo and i like

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all kinds of games and the crunchy

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mechanics that make him tick you can

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find me on twitter facebook and

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instagram and i'd really appreciate a

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like or a follow and today i am joined

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by scott aka optional rule thank you

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ever ever so much for joining us today

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scott can you tell us a little bit about

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yourself

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thank you for having me i really

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appreciate it uh my name is scott i run

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a website and i'm active on twitter and

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i stream on twitch under optional rule

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you can search for me there um i'm

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really just um commenting on tabletop

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role playing dungeons and dragons

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specifically since it's so popular but i

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do all kinds of role playing and

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role-playing theory with a bent on

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actual games being played the messiness

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of games being played in the real world

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and getting more and more people to run

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games thank you yes lots of

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very insightful and interesting thoughts

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and comments and opinions you've had and

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i think that's how we've met originally

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was on twitter and sharing ideas and

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opinions and stuff so i'm really looking

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forward to today it should be a very

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interesting one the topic of today of

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which is agency so what does that mean

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to you yeah that's great so agency is

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really about choices that that the the

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power how empowered someone is to make

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choices to decide what options to select

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um i think it's a there's a couple of uh

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misconceptions about agency in the game

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space that might be worth addressing

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today but it's really just about your

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ability to make choices uh whatever

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options might be presented to you maybe

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even worth noting right out of the gate

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that

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in a game as it relates to tabletop

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games the the dm

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dictates the options the player

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dictates the choices so they exercise

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agency and the dice dictate the outcome

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so that's really the core agency is a

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core component of gameplay for a player

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in any tabletop role-playing game hmm i

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quite like that the symmetry there's

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like three pillars just like there are

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three pillars of dnd there's quite a

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nice marriage there of the two kind of

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frameworks

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i'd like actually let's start with the

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misconceptions of agency i think it's

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quite um that term is thrown around a

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lot just that single word agency and all

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the weight then the heft that comes with

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it is thrown around all the time and i

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think everybody has a kind of a

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a fundamental appreciation of you know

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what it means it's it's the players have

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or should have agencies so let's really

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dive in then with the misconceptions of

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agency or the perceived misconceptions

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yeah no that's great so i think um first

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anything that's adjacent to a choice

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sometimes is mistaken for agency and

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games so control is adjacent to choice i

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would say agency that is co-opted or

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becomes unhealthy becomes an argument

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about control not an argument about

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agency that a um sometimes people

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confuse

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agency as being able to override the

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rules or which is not always the case

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rules have a role they're not all

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important nothing is all important but

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agency doesn't always override other

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every other element and the other

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confusion part is to understand where an

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individual player's agency stops and

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another player's agency begins or even

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the game master i think a big

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underappreciated element of agency in

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tabletop games is the the dm has agency

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too because they're also a player

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they're a player with a different set of

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responsibilities and their agencies

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around the world and the world's choices

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and what options might be available to a

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player to exercise their agency but the

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misconceptions are really around when

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does it become toxic for a lack of a

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better word where it becomes control or

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where does it get limited um in other

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words where do you surrender your agency

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in favor of somebody else's

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that's a topic we've touched on a couple

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of times in previous episodes around i

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think it was with acting it was knowing

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when to create space almost for other

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players and that that a part of that is

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relinquishing

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some of your agency to enable

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other people at the table maybe as

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a similar kind of conceit i suppose yeah

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i think something i always go back to is

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uh

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one of the big ways that tabletop role

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playing games differ from something like

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a novel or a movie is table top game

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role-playing games there's a lot of role

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of negative space right in in art in

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visual arts you have this concept of

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negative space which is things not

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included that the that the observer

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fills in well that happens as well as

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the table you know you create negative

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space for another player to fill in and

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your actions sometimes limit or enable

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another player's agency like are you or

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have you done something extreme now

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whereas now another player at the table

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or the dm doesn't have a lot of options

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that seem reasonable to them to react to

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that right so the medium of our our art

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form if you want to call it that is

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something about trading agency back and

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forth that's the core of what improv is

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right so i think it i think it just has

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a core role to table top role playing

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games

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i think trading agency back and forth is

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a really really nice way of putting it

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could it is that this is going to sound

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weird but like a collaborative tug of

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war right you're kind of on the same

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team but also kind and not in some

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instances that is a really interesting

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way of putting it and i think that's one

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of the harder things to pick up when you

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come to it that's a quite a nuanced

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thing to know to give somebody else

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agency at potentially the cost of your

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own is

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like a super difficult thing and one you

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never really

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i think you can never master it's just

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one of those things you can just

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continually appreciate more i suppose is

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the romantic way to put it no that's

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absolutely true the iterative nature of

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gaming

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and the sort of the contextual nature of

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gaming it's evergreen it's an evergreen

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topic i think that's why you're you're

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you have such a wonderful podcast as

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mentioned before we recorded that i've

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listened to several episodes i really

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enjoy it and it's because there's always

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a what if and

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back to the example of agency i always

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the metaphor i use in my mind is we all

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have this baby at the table and we're

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passing this baby around and all of

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everybody trusting each other to hold it

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right and love it right and and it's

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just

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gaming requires lots of trust and

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surrendering agency is the ultimate

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expression of trust really

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so yeah that that to me ties back to why

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it's so important and why this is such

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an evergreen topic i'll even add this

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bit as i've been gaming i didn't add

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this at the top of the show but i've

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been gaming for over 40 years i'm i'm an

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old-timer i i i hopefully have not

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tripped over into the geezer territory

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of my attitude at least that i'm that

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i'm i try to stay young-minded so i love

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that

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i i hear interesting things from other

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people all the time and i'm not getting

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locked into ways of thinking so that

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that flexible mindset is is key to

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enabling agency from other players and i

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encourage everybody to do it

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yeah for sure for sure talking about the

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podcast thank you for your kind words i

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must admit every every now and again i

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have a blind panic of oh no i'm running

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out of topics but then suddenly i'll

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think of like five more and then they

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just get added to the list

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so i have to keep reminding myself don't

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worry there's always some weird abstract

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way i can take it i talk about trading

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agency there's an example of recent in

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one of my games that was

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it was quite an awkward position and it

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deals with a lot of

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iffy topics like meta gaming being one

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of them so

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in my

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particular game i'm running at the

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moment we have we have a discord and i

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made a channel for kind of dm private

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talk

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a lot of my players were newer they were

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less experienced at separating

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themselves from the meta so there was

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there was a little bit of instances

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where i've gone okay you're only really

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doing that because

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you know the context and maybe i'm

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taking a hammer to a problem which

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requires a tweezer but

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i have a separate channel to go let's do

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a bit of one one to one just to

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completely mitigate it

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so we we did that in the last session uh

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a player wanted to talk privately to an

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nbc and he deliberately waited in game

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until he was alone with the npc everyone

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else left he's i'm i want to be the last

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one to leave okay cool boom straight

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into the other chat we're chatting away

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blah blah

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come back in and this is why i'm

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alluding to the fact that this might not

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be the best way to do it is because

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immediately the other players are like

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what's happening what happened i was

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there i didn't really leave i i wanted

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to stay and listen to the conversation i

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was like

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i don't know man you you explicitly said

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you left the room and like walked away

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and now you're telling me you actually

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really didn't do that and you wanted to

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stay and that was a that was a tough

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call for me to be like sorry dude i

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think

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you're trying to have your cake and eat

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it with that one and yeah you're only

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doing that and so ironically it almost

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made it worse moving into a different

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room but it's that like

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i wanted the player to have that

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one-to-one time with the npc because he

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went to great lengths to do it but then

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also didn't want to just say no you met

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a gaming you can't do anything you want

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to do and that i was right in the middle

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of the

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the agency tug of war there to

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but but luckily he the guy said you know

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what i am probably

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taking the piss a little bit there

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i'll i'll just put my hands up and say

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i was foolish enough to leave the

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warlock player character with the

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powerful caster npc to let them discuss

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all sorts of naughty machinations that

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probably should have been listened to

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right right yeah there's a lot to unpack

278
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,480
there because i've had many situations

279
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,399
like that myself and um i mean i think

280
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,640
every dm does and it's common it's

281
00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:50,240
common scenario run into where there's a

282
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,240
difference between character agency and

283
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,399
player agency right

284
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,320
the metagame is a space that players

285
00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:58,640
enjoy the game and sometimes they enjoy

286
00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,040
watching somebody else play so their

287
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,200
agency is commenting on what that other

288
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,720
player is doing but that can interfere

289
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,160
with the player doing the action right

290
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,000
they don't feel free to do what they're

291
00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,839
gonna do i don't think there is a right

292
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,760
answer in there just it's a great

293
00:10:09,839 --> 00:10:13,680
example of how

294
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,440
how malleable that whole space can be

295
00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:17,200
plus you know metagaming i'm sure is a

296
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,360
topic for a great topic for another show

297
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,680
there's there's also the

298
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,519
the the concept of you're playing these

299
00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:25,920
characters but you're operating in a

300
00:10:23,519 --> 00:10:27,839
world that has this artificial layer

301
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,920
you know put on top of it and you can't

302
00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:32,480
not acknowledge that that's happening

303
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,800
you can't not acknowledge that you know

304
00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,120
wounds don't hurt until you're down to

305
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,800
zero hit points or that you you sleep

306
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,640
once and you come you come up with full

307
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,480
hit points it's hard to not acknowledge

308
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,519
that that's the reality you're living in

309
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,600
so

310
00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:48,000
sometimes the best way to

311
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,760
maintain your own agency is to ignore

312
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,320
the sort of hand wave these details of

313
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,519
the metagame that are happening um but

314
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,959
other times it's just you should just

315
00:10:53,519 --> 00:10:57,200
say what's on your mind and leave it for

316
00:10:54,959 --> 00:10:59,600
the the game master plays that referee

317
00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,959
of deciding how much time each player

318
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,640
should be getting and how much attention

319
00:11:00,959 --> 00:11:04,399
your players should be getting so in a

320
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,959
way it's about managing

321
00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:09,200
time equals agency to some degree right

322
00:11:06,959 --> 00:11:11,440
and so in a way it's really it's a

323
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,360
really about

324
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,440
making sure you're the interface between

325
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,600
players to some degree right so it's

326
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,680
about it's about making sure that that

327
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,440
conversation is flowing in a way that

328
00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,519
doesn't cause problem downstream that

329
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,519
make them feel empowered now

330
00:11:23,519 --> 00:11:28,079
and maybe even just a conversation of

331
00:11:25,519 --> 00:11:29,920
like okay calm down maybe that itself is

332
00:11:28,079 --> 00:11:31,920
the game right where that that's just

333
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,079
that fun part of the gal okay you've

334
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,240
gone too far let's reign it in a little

335
00:11:34,079 --> 00:11:37,920
bit uh maybe that's the game it's all

336
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,640
the game so somewhere

337
00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,320
yeah yeah so yeah that was awkward i

338
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,160
mean no there was no shade or you know

339
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,519
no one was dissatisfied with the outcome

340
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,959
i think he was just

341
00:11:45,519 --> 00:11:48,959
that was his output for probably really

342
00:11:46,959 --> 00:11:51,360
kicking himself in the backside of being

343
00:11:48,959 --> 00:11:53,920
like oh you idiot why didn't i stay

344
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,920
he's just clutching at anything left to

345
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,920
to not let himself get screwed over by

346
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,839
the warlock let me ask you let me ask

347
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,279
you a question do you perceive the

348
00:11:59,839 --> 00:12:04,079
player that asked to do that side

349
00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:05,839
conversation was this a was there fun

350
00:12:04,079 --> 00:12:07,839
about how much they could get away with

351
00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:08,720
or was it really about the conversation

352
00:12:07,839 --> 00:12:10,880
itself

353
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,639
uh no it was it was predominantly about

354
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,279
the conversation so this is a this is a

355
00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:17,680
warlock playing a bit of a stereotypical

356
00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,560
warlock to the extent of they want power

357
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,240
and

358
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:22,160
you know so on and so on and they are

359
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,720
happening to be talking to a dragon in

360
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:27,440
humanoid form my dragons are innately

361
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,720
powerful so his whole thing was

362
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,639
i kind of want some private time with

363
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,720
his npc to see what

364
00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:35,040
boons that i can get that the others

365
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,560
don't really need to know about

366
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,399
so that but that's interesting it ties

367
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:39,920
to our topic because that's character

368
00:12:38,399 --> 00:12:42,000
that's classic example of character

369
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,839
agency right the the player is trying to

370
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,839
take that time for the character to

371
00:12:43,839 --> 00:12:47,600
carve off a little bit more power but

372
00:12:45,839 --> 00:12:49,600
that ultimately that's about granting

373
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,920
them more capability to do more things

374
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,600
more agency right if if it was the

375
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,440
opposite with that that's why i asked a

376
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,079
question sometimes it's about

377
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,440
player agency like i as a player can get

378
00:12:58,079 --> 00:13:01,120
a little bit more space or get a little

379
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,720
bit more which is no shade on that

380
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,600
that's that's perfectly fine but then

381
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,440
that's more about the player being a bit

382
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,800
ampish in

383
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,880
how much can i get away with here

384
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,560
testing testing their boundaries which

385
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,360
are both valid they just come at it from

386
00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,519
different

387
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,360
again it's just that idea of management

388
00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:18,800
managing how much agency you can you can

389
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,959
get for either your character or

390
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,480
yourself as a player i think is the core

391
00:13:20,959 --> 00:13:24,560
lesson there

392
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,040
yeah for sure i mean to be fair to him

393
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:29,040
he does swing a little bit to the ampish

394
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,040
player side it's not all

395
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,360
benign

396
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,040
it's okay

397
00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,240
so we we opened the discussion and it's

398
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,920
something we we actually talked about on

399
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,240
twitter yesterday briefly about

400
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,560
impactful choices and it's something i

401
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,920
wanted to talk a little bit more about

402
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:46,639
so finally it's good timing actually

403
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,720
because i just recorded uh the

404
00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:50,160
game that i'm a player in last night we

405
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,720
streamed and recorded it from the

406
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,600
podcast and whatnot and a lot of that

407
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,519
was

408
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,920
unimpactful in the grand scheme of

409
00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:59,760
things but it was four hours worth of

410
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,040
game time so i just wanted to know like

411
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,360
a little bit more if you could elaborate

412
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,880
on what would be the definition of an

413
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,360
impactful choice

414
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,680
regarding character and player agency

415
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,199
yeah so yeah for background we had you

416
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:13,360
and i had an exchange on twitter it

417
00:14:11,199 --> 00:14:15,360
started off with the idea of

418
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,880
a geese spell something that would

419
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,120
compel someone to perform and then it

420
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,399
sort of got into this conversation of

421
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,920
meaningful action versus not because

422
00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:24,240
there was some flavor stuff that came up

423
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:27,120
and i commented that so to me meaningful

424
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:29,120
action transforms the world in some way

425
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,000
or advances the plot in some significant

426
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,040
way as opposed to flavor choices which

427
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,480
are

428
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,760
which by the way i'm not playing that

429
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,000
down that doesn't diminish the

430
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:40,079
importance of flavor choices but flavor

431
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,240
choices about well if you do like a

432
00:14:40,079 --> 00:14:44,480
role-playing session where it's shopping

433
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,720
and you go to a ball and you get to know

434
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,959
new npc's and you get to tell your

435
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,480
player backstory that's all fun that's

436
00:14:48,959 --> 00:14:52,399
all your choice of how you've spent your

437
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,639
time but in the long run it's not

438
00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:57,199
implying a rules change or a power shift

439
00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:59,040
in the world or even advancement for the

440
00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:01,279
character there's no

441
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,880
all the consequences are contained to

442
00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:04,160
the the encounter they don't bleed

443
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,240
outside the encounter i think that's

444
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,440
what separates a meaningful choice

445
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,440
versus a

446
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,720
simply just a choice but again that

447
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,480
doesn't play it down

448
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,160
i tend to give more

449
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,800
latitude towards

450
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,839
flavor choices really just at that point

451
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,680
what you know what your character

452
00:15:17,839 --> 00:15:21,600
background is what color

453
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,279
shirt you buy you're the game the player

454
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,199
is the game master in that context right

455
00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:27,120
there they they control most of the

456
00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:29,199
world um but what how does the world

457
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,600
react to it and i was thinking about

458
00:15:29,199 --> 00:15:33,440
this actually before the show i had

459
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,759
never verbalized to myself but a

460
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,839
character saying what impact it has on a

461
00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:40,399
world is bleeding over into the game

462
00:15:37,839 --> 00:15:42,399
masters agency because the game masters

463
00:15:40,399 --> 00:15:43,759
choices the game master has agency too

464
00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:45,519
as i said earlier they're they're

465
00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:48,560
another player at the table their

466
00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:50,399
choices are how does the world adjust to

467
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,000
this choice that the players made the

468
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:54,639
dice might even say the outcome but how

469
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,880
does the world react what choices uh the

470
00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:58,240
world make to this the narrative choice

471
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,399
here that's

472
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,160
really the domain of the game master and

473
00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:03,600
they're there to have fun too they're

474
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,240
not there just to be an encounter

475
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,839
dispenser so just like you would worry

476
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:11,279
about intruding on the agency of a

477
00:16:07,839 --> 00:16:13,279
player um to ruin their their enjoyment

478
00:16:11,279 --> 00:16:15,519
i do think it's under acknowledged that

479
00:16:13,279 --> 00:16:17,519
we should leave some agency to the dm

480
00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:19,519
that they they're here to enjoy the game

481
00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:22,160
just as much as we are so that's where

482
00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:25,120
the negotiation is highly important

483
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:27,040
right the way that plays out um is so

484
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,040
control issues are usually on the gm's

485
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,480
part where the gm is saying

486
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,920
your character is going to removing

487
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,000
agency from the player and saying this

488
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,800
is going to happen that's almost always

489
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,560
a um a bad turn now anything might be

490
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,639
able to be done well but i don't

491
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,959
typically see it done well right

492
00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:44,320
um yeah so i guess just in terms of

493
00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:46,079
we'll talk about the geese thing in a

494
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,680
second i guess but in terms of what

495
00:16:46,079 --> 00:16:49,360
constitutes meaningful versus not

496
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,440
meaningful activity i think it comes

497
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,000
down to the ability to affect the world

498
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,839
outside of the encounter

499
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,800
i think and please jump in correct me if

500
00:16:55,839 --> 00:16:58,720
i'm wrong but

501
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,720
a potentially good example of that that

502
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,360
players may be taking away from the

503
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:06,240
agency of the dm is i've heard

504
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:08,400
a couple of uh anecdotes on reddit and

505
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:11,039
stuff of of the dms

506
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,839
getting frustrated with their players

507
00:17:11,039 --> 00:17:13,439
who

508
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:16,000
they'll set up an encounter and the

509
00:17:13,439 --> 00:17:18,480
player goes ah well actually my mother's

510
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,720
brother's uncle was the head of the

511
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,720
bandits and so therefore we should be

512
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,640
fine in this encounter and then

513
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,799
you know the dm's like oh

514
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,079
i'm in a tricky situation here because

515
00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:30,799
i've got to let the players do what they

516
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:32,720
want to do but it's that to me is a

517
00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:34,000
crystallized example of

518
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,600
the player

519
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,760
basically running the game at that point

520
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,160
to a certain extent i agree i agree i

521
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,520
and i actually i i agree that that's

522
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,440
problematic i don't agree with that

523
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,919
player's premise that you're the straw

524
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,679
man player that you just presented

525
00:17:45,919 --> 00:17:49,760
and that's a typical i think for game

526
00:17:47,679 --> 00:17:51,360
masters that's a typical scenario we get

527
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,799
game masters get beat down with this

528
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,400
rule of cool

529
00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,799
you know we you should allow things the

530
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,559
players do because it's cool and my

531
00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:01,200
thinking is maybe

532
00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:02,720
you know sometimes it's cool i i i have

533
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,559
yet to meet a player who didn't think

534
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,520
that everything they did wasn't cool

535
00:18:04,559 --> 00:18:09,200
right so it's okay to say no i i think

536
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,120
that's the like that's the chord it's

537
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,760
okay as a game master to say no like

538
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,200
okay that's gone a little too far um as

539
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,919
with everything there's a balance there

540
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,240
but

541
00:18:15,919 --> 00:18:20,160
we get beat up a little bit more

542
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,559
uh with this idea that the game masters

543
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,559
have an adversarial point of view simply

544
00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:25,919
because they don't give in to every idea

545
00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:28,960
player has

546
00:18:25,919 --> 00:18:30,960
that's not the case for 95 percent of

547
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:34,080
most of the dm's i know like

548
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:37,520
our unspoken our hat trick here our

549
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:39,919
grand magic act is to act like we want

550
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:42,400
the players to to fail we don't we want

551
00:18:39,919 --> 00:18:45,440
them to succeed the monsters want them

552
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,039
to fail right the npcs want to win but

553
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,200
the game master always wants the players

554
00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:50,880
to win so um i think there's given a

555
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,960
little bit too much error to this idea

556
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,880
that game masters are adversarial

557
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,360
they're not they're getting you to sort

558
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,840
of feel a sense of accomplishment and

559
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,679
part of that is this heart-wrenching

560
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,919
element that you have to allow players

561
00:19:01,679 --> 00:19:05,600
to fail because i don't want that i

562
00:19:03,919 --> 00:19:08,240
don't want it it does it's no fun for me

563
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,240
to be honest um but it's no form fun for

564
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,320
me either to give it away to them i want

565
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,360
them so what back to our topic right i

566
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,840
want them to use their agency wisely i

567
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:21,039
want them where my fun is is to present

568
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,799
a scenario watch them use their agency

569
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:24,400
to bring back things to me about how

570
00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,320
they can unravel and how they can solve

571
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,080
this situation that that's

572
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,760
where i what that's what i enjoy about

573
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,600
watching my players and when that's done

574
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,679
poorly on the players part or sometimes

575
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,280
on my part sometimes i think i'm giving

576
00:19:35,679 --> 00:19:39,200
them agency and they don't think about

577
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,400
the thing i wanted them to do and now

578
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,280
we're in trouble

579
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,039
um

580
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,520
one of the things about misconceptions i

581
00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:48,240
talked about earlier this misconception

582
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:50,559
of where the line of agency ends that's

583
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,240
a difficult thing to define that's a big

584
00:19:50,559 --> 00:19:54,559
misconception of the part of the players

585
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:57,200
i would define that line as

586
00:19:54,559 --> 00:19:58,960
expecting an outcome you can't expect an

587
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,160
outcome all you can do with your agency

588
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,640
as a player

589
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,520
is express your actions but the moment

590
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,400
you're

591
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:08,159
depending on a specific outcome i think

592
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,240
you've probably

593
00:20:08,159 --> 00:20:11,760
gone off-roading you're probably not

594
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,960
understanding where your agency is

595
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,799
supposed to stop

596
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,280
okay a couple things to unpack there

597
00:20:14,799 --> 00:20:18,400
first your quote about you've never met

598
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,320
a player who doesn't think everything

599
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,960
they do is cool you don't appreciate how

600
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,280
vindicated i am because i actually quote

601
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,440
you and that what you've just said in

602
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,960
the episode that will be airing before

603
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,240
this so i could not have asked for a

604
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,520
better

605
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,960
people are gonna hear that one and then

606
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,559
hear this one and go oh yeah he's not

607
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,840
danlow isn't lying he did actually say

608
00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:36,640
that thing

609
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,919
so

610
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,919
that's perfect

611
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:41,520
but that last point there about a

612
00:20:39,919 --> 00:20:43,679
misunderstanding of where your agency

613
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,720
lies i suppose as a player it's a play

614
00:20:43,679 --> 00:20:47,520
that i haven't

615
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,400
i've referenced before who i think

616
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,559
has

617
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,120
a bit of a that they approach their turn

618
00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:55,200
and a lot of interactions in the world

619
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:57,039
with an expectation in mind

620
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,480
like i'll i'll do this thing and then

621
00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:00,159
this thing will happen

622
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,720
and then of course because human beings

623
00:21:00,159 --> 00:21:04,880
are different and i'm not that person i

624
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,080
understand it in a different way i

625
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,840
comprehend it in a different way i

626
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,480
approach it from a different way and of

627
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,520
course their outcome that i give them

628
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,080
doesn't match with what they are

629
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,400
expecting and that has led to

630
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,360
oh fine i won't do it then and then i

631
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,919
just feel

632
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:21,440
the worst that's deflating that's a dm

633
00:21:19,919 --> 00:21:23,360
that's like way that's not what i was

634
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,120
trying to do i just you're speaking a

635
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:27,120
language i don't understand i don't i

636
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:29,360
don't know what to do here without

637
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:31,120
becoming a whole different game master i

638
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:33,679
don't know what to do here

639
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,880
right yeah precisely and uh that you

640
00:21:33,679 --> 00:21:35,919
know that's happened a couple times and

641
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,760
i've said like tell me what you're

642
00:21:35,919 --> 00:21:39,039
trying to achieve and i can tell you or

643
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,320
help you

644
00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:42,640
tell you

645
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,280
what you can do to achieve that rather

646
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,720
than just starting at the end almost uh

647
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,559
so that that's something that we're

648
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,440
having to work on work on makes it sound

649
00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:50,480
like there's a problem it's not a

650
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,760
problem but you know what i mean like

651
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,919
we're having to meet in the middle a

652
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,559
little bit and kind of reframe both

653
00:21:53,919 --> 00:21:59,039
expectations on both sides yeah i think

654
00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:00,799
that that this i'm not speaking to your

655
00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:02,080
example i'm speaking to the topic

656
00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:03,600
because i don't know the people involved

657
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,159
here but that's the mismaster

658
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,080
assumptions right so that's uh which is

659
00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:10,080
assumption miss master chumps in

660
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,840
tabletop role-playing games is about

661
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,480
this expectation of how are you going to

662
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:17,679
use your agency right and in that in

663
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:20,240
these cases it means that i think

664
00:22:17,679 --> 00:22:22,080
players sometimes when you reject their

665
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,840
assumption of how something is going to

666
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,159
work out they feel like you're

667
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,600
questioning their logic or vice versa

668
00:22:26,159 --> 00:22:30,559
maybe the game master always feels that

669
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,000
way maybe that's can also feel uh in the

670
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,480
opposite direction or game master and

671
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,480
that fundamentally becomes a so the

672
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,400
argument now isn't about

673
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,400
isn't about the action it's about the

674
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,559
logic behind the action and sort of

675
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,799
there's this quasi

676
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:47,200
of someone feels personally slighted and

677
00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:49,919
that's that's one way that games can

678
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,520
slide to a bad direction uh i wish i

679
00:22:49,919 --> 00:22:53,600
could give you a magic way to solve that

680
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,679
other than session zero that's how often

681
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,200
people do it but um yeah that's just a

682
00:22:55,679 --> 00:22:59,360
mismatch of how you think you're going

683
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,799
to use your agency

684
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:03,120
yeah if you could give me a silver

685
00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:06,320
bullet that'd be fantastic

686
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:09,200
but i know that it's uh not possible so

687
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:11,840
yeah that's something that we're slowly

688
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,559
meeting in the middle and coming to

689
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,559
more aligned expectations shall we say i

690
00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:17,840
can i if i can offer some advice i i

691
00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:19,919
have a um

692
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,159
uh in my in my real world life i work

693
00:23:19,919 --> 00:23:24,000
with lots of entrepreneurs and startups

694
00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:25,919
and and there's this concept of a pitch

695
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,440
deck which means before you

696
00:23:25,919 --> 00:23:29,440
spend a lot of time getting to work with

697
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,880
someone you you pitch them the basic

698
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,400
concept of what you're trying to do i

699
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,559
think that has a lot of utility for

700
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,880
games so i have this this pitch deck i

701
00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:38,480
do for players before i get into a

702
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,919
campaign so they understand the tone of

703
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,320
the campaign the types of rules we'll

704
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:44,480
use i do think that that's a tool that

705
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:47,120
can be helpful we we focus on chess and

706
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,039
zero uh safety tools is what most people

707
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:50,640
focus on with sessions here which are

708
00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:53,120
supremely important i don't want to play

709
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,880
that down but i i will also say there's

710
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,880
more to it than just safety tools it's

711
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,919
about play styles and assumptions and

712
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,279
what kind of store you're telling and

713
00:23:57,919 --> 00:24:00,799
how you're going to what you're buying

714
00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:03,039
with that time together

715
00:24:00,799 --> 00:24:06,159
i think that's a tool that can help with

716
00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:08,159
it but there's no magic bullet

717
00:24:06,159 --> 00:24:11,120
no you can you can be in the safest game

718
00:24:08,159 --> 00:24:13,360
in the world and still be expecting

719
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:15,200
completely different games and

720
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,960
approaches and stuff so

721
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,120
absolutely for sure

722
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,279
okay so why don't we move on there and

723
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,640
you mentioned it the the spells and

724
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:26,799
abilities that

725
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:29,919
can take away agency so for context the

726
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:31,440
same npc the humanoid green dragon that

727
00:24:29,919 --> 00:24:33,200
the warlock was speaking to in my

728
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,240
earlier example

729
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:38,880
um green dragons in the monster manual

730
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,240
specifically like manipulating elves as

731
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,159
they see them as

732
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,000
you know haughty and holier than now and

733
00:24:42,159 --> 00:24:45,760
they live a million years and they're

734
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,240
typically more educated and however you

735
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:51,520
want to spin them in your world and i

736
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,400
have an elf player character so of

737
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,640
course

738
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,240
i'm gonna lean into that to you know

739
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,000
give that character a little bit of time

740
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,760
in the spotlight and

741
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,360
they get some unique interactions with

742
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,600
the with this npc that the other

743
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:05,520
characters don't because they're just

744
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:09,679
i hate to use the term lesser races in

745
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:11,600
the eyes of that npc sure and so it's

746
00:25:09,679 --> 00:25:13,520
weird because i go on to my players and

747
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,640
i've written things about my syndrome

748
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,520
and how it sucks and you should never do

749
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,279
it and it's always the player's

750
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,360
responsibility and then i'm literally in

751
00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:20,880
that situation myself but with an npc

752
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:23,200
and it was a really discombobulating

753
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,279
experience to almost out of body to be

754
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,760
telling myself off

755
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,440
but even considering that it's so weird

756
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,360
because the first defense i had was yeah

757
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,360
but the dragon would do that so

758
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:34,960
that's totally okay

759
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:36,320
and i needed to stop and think and be

760
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,480
like yeah but

761
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,600
actually actually think about it

762
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,760
using

763
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,559
the gayest or gears or however you want

764
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:48,080
to pronounce it spell to basically

765
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:50,080
dominate this elven character and it was

766
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,919
a bigger deal than i had anticipated let

767
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,360
me put it like that

768
00:25:51,919 --> 00:25:56,640
yes yeah yeah to use an americanism i

769
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,320
always think like

770
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,000
we you ain't never going to get out of

771
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,919
this one

772
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,080
you know that's a very it's a very

773
00:26:01,919 --> 00:26:06,400
complex knot because it there's several

774
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,080
things going on there besides just the

775
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,200
the ghias right there's

776
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:13,279
the idea of forcing a point of view on a

777
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,600
player character right which that sounds

778
00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:17,360
more intrusive than i mean it to be but

779
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,919
players can sometimes take it that way

780
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:22,400
but basically you want you want them to

781
00:26:19,919 --> 00:26:25,039
adopt a an in-character priority right

782
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,679
based on a spell some players are able

783
00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:29,200
to do that some players are not um i

784
00:26:27,679 --> 00:26:31,120
think one of the first tier problems

785
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,799
that game masters have is

786
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:34,880
a lot of players will say okay that's

787
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:35,840
the world i'll go along with it but

788
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,279
that's assuming they're not

789
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,480
uncomfortable completely uncomfortable

790
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:40,240
with it in the first place which is a

791
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,640
separate problem but let's say they go

792
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,960
along with it often what you get in the

793
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,039
game are the players will

794
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,440
either consciously or subconsciously

795
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:50,880
begin to try to undermine the plot that

796
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,799
you've laid out and the whole thing

797
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,640
begins to unwind right so over a long

798
00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:56,559
enough time period they'll begin to

799
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,640
subvert the dragon they'll begin to act

800
00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:01,520
maybe metagame wise to subvert the

801
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,679
actions to give away the plot and and so

802
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,200
there's that that problem of managing it

803
00:27:03,679 --> 00:27:07,679
but then there's also the problem of is

804
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,159
that fun does the player want to

805
00:27:07,679 --> 00:27:13,039
adopt it i actually for that i think my

806
00:27:10,159 --> 00:27:14,799
reply in in twitter was um

807
00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:16,559
i would resort to narrative tools for

808
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:18,880
that maybe i can unpack a little bit of

809
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:20,960
what i mean by that here for a player to

810
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,399
adopt a longer term plot element in a

811
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,480
game you need them bought into the

812
00:27:22,399 --> 00:27:26,240
concept you need them to understand it

813
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,559
you need to have them acting in good

814
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,039
faith too both consciously and

815
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:32,080
subconsciously i have done a few things

816
00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:33,600
like that i'll give you an example of

817
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,200
what it was in a second but

818
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,799
usually what i do is i just tell the

819
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,799
players listen i don't want to roll

820
00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:40,159
saving throws here this is a narrative

821
00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:41,600
twist that i want to have and i want to

822
00:27:40,159 --> 00:27:43,440
i want to get from you how do what's

823
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,399
your take on this and i'd lay out to

824
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,399
them listen you're going to hit a green

825
00:27:44,399 --> 00:27:48,320
dragon want you to do one or the other

826
00:27:46,399 --> 00:27:50,320
things i would even tell them listen the

827
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,000
dragon green dragon doesn't want to ghee

828
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,279
as you he wants you

829
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,880
to agree

830
00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:56,320
or she whoever it is the green dragon

831
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,840
wants you to agree

832
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,039
what would get your character how could

833
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,120
they blackmail you how could they

834
00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:02,799
persuade you to do it and give it to the

835
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:04,399
player to say you know what if they

836
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:07,039
agreed i knew they're evil but if they

837
00:28:04,399 --> 00:28:08,720
agreed to help my family do x y or z i'd

838
00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:10,799
go along with it counting that i'd

839
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,080
counter general or they would say well

840
00:28:10,799 --> 00:28:14,399
they would cast a spell and i'll go

841
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,399
along with it can we make the plot this

842
00:28:14,399 --> 00:28:18,559
or that to make it interesting for me as

843
00:28:16,399 --> 00:28:20,240
a player character so that's trading as

844
00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:21,679
a dm i think i can go but you can go

845
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,679
back and forth that way

846
00:28:21,679 --> 00:28:25,520
the other is to and i don't know if this

847
00:28:23,679 --> 00:28:27,840
applies to your situation but the other

848
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,159
is you can just jump forward in time say

849
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,840
that that did they did that behavior and

850
00:28:30,159 --> 00:28:33,520
they don't recall what it was so it's

851
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,039
kind of like the movie the hangover if

852
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,640
you've ever seen that where they're now

853
00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:38,559
trying to remember what it is they did

854
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,080
in this last year again you want to get

855
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:41,919
buy-in from the player to make sure that

856
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,840
they are okay with that plot line or

857
00:28:41,919 --> 00:28:46,159
they trust you enough to surrender okay

858
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,960
whatever i did you tell me and i'll roll

859
00:28:46,159 --> 00:28:51,120
with it um i i did in a conan game i i

860
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,880
was running a conan game years ago

861
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,880
they had an encounter go poorly the

862
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,399
player characters all got captured i

863
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,600
actually honestly didn't know what to do

864
00:28:56,399 --> 00:29:01,679
so i had them tied up in some cages with

865
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,120
some mage in front of him cackling and

866
00:29:01,679 --> 00:29:04,799
saying now you're going to serve the

867
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,320
purpose and he burned some incest in

868
00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:08,480
front of them and then they they blacked

869
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,000
out and i need needed a session because

870
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,159
i had no plan for this i didn't know

871
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,760
what i was going to do so i talked to

872
00:29:12,159 --> 00:29:15,440
them in between sessions and said hey

873
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,600
this is what i'd love to do it's gonna

874
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,960
be five years later you're gonna wake up

875
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,960
uh i cleared all this with them so to

876
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,640
give you the narrative they wake up in

877
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,399
the middle of this war

878
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,399
they're in these burning in

879
00:29:24,399 --> 00:29:28,080
in amongst this burning incense the

880
00:29:26,399 --> 00:29:29,840
plotline was this brought them out of

881
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,279
whatever magic it was a similar instance

882
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,399
to what was brought them into it and

883
00:29:31,279 --> 00:29:34,159
they had been a soldier a

884
00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:36,000
mind-controlled soldier in this person's

885
00:29:34,159 --> 00:29:37,679
army for five years and now they had to

886
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,120
unravel that narrative they were down

887
00:29:37,679 --> 00:29:41,039
with that they loved the mystery of it

888
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,880
they trusted me enough to sort of go

889
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,039
down that road to see where they were

890
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,039
and um and that worked out very well but

891
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:48,559
it involved a lot of negotiation a lot

892
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:50,559
of talking

893
00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:52,159
so that's to me i think are the options

894
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:54,720
you can use for something broad and

895
00:29:52,159 --> 00:29:57,840
long-term like a gears i think that

896
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,200
they're they're live dragons right

897
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,480
literally yes

898
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,559
yeah i think

899
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,440
i am probably too and i've mentioned it

900
00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:06,320
before

901
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,080
too prideful or you know i'm too

902
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,600
i'm i'm really not precious about some

903
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,520
things so like

904
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,120
my whole thing is relatively sandbox and

905
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,399
if people don't go somewhere i don't

906
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,559
pick it up and put it in front of them

907
00:30:14,399 --> 00:30:18,480
that's fine that's okay it's you know

908
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:20,320
part of the the social contract of me

909
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,919
being a dm is i'm willing to sacrifice

910
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,279
things that don't get touched on like if

911
00:30:21,919 --> 00:30:24,880
there's rooms in a dungeon they don't go

912
00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:27,360
to that's fine i've agreed to

913
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,480
essentially waste that time i'm in with

914
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,520
that

915
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,320
but

916
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,159
other things like i i think i'm too

917
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,480
precious about wanting it to be a good

918
00:30:34,159 --> 00:30:38,480
story and if at the moment i have to

919
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,039
basically spoil a bit of the story for

920
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,640
them i'm reluctant to do it even though

921
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:44,000
in the long term it's the right thing to

922
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,720
do and that's something i need to deal

923
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,640
with from a personal point of view yeah

924
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,559
i'm i'm not dissimilar i have to be

925
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,760
honest i find that a bitter pill to

926
00:30:50,559 --> 00:30:54,480
swallow

927
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,320
to sacrifice the sense of the integrity

928
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,720
of the world when i was younger i was

929
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,000
horrible about it like oh integrity of

930
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,080
my world

931
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,760
i'm i'm more loose about it as an older

932
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,760
game master but it's still it's i

933
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,840
struggle with it i struggle with it

934
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,519
that's why i love the idea of the

935
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,120
suggestion i made was ask the player

936
00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:12,960
like out of character

937
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,320
what could your character be offered

938
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,799
that would get them to do because the

939
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,120
green dragon would love corrupting them

940
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:20,159
naturally without without a spell so

941
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,640
that that

942
00:31:20,159 --> 00:31:24,080
provides me both as a gm with the ooh

943
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,840
great plot line

944
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,399
and them as a player with some agency to

945
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,919
go okay let me game master for my

946
00:31:28,399 --> 00:31:31,279
character here a bit uh but not all

947
00:31:29,919 --> 00:31:33,279
characters not all players are good at

948
00:31:31,279 --> 00:31:35,760
doing that yeah yeah that's it to be

949
00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:38,000
fair to me the green dragon did open his

950
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,720
opening gambit was

951
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,080
elf come and be with me and i'll give

952
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,919
the rest of the party ex you know

953
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,000
whatever they want the questions asked

954
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:46,799
and we can leave as friends to which he

955
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,050
didn't

956
00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:56,829
quite uh for some reason didn't agree so

957
00:31:51,050 --> 00:31:56,829
[Music]

958
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,200
the i personally as a game master i love

959
00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:06,720
reasonable evil

960
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,880
like evil that

961
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:12,000
everything they're telling you sounds

962
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,480
logical and is and seems good but you

963
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:17,519
know they're evil

964
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,080
so uh i love that as a geo that's that's

965
00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:21,600
precisely the vibe i was going for so

966
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,519
they the dragon knows that they're there

967
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,200
for a specific magical item and the

968
00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:26,799
opening gambit was like guys come and

969
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,880
join me for dinner i will give you this

970
00:32:26,799 --> 00:32:31,279
magical item that you've traveled you

971
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,039
know x thousand miles for a problem we

972
00:32:31,279 --> 00:32:34,399
can have dinner we can enjoy the view

973
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:35,760
you can leave you can stay the night no

974
00:32:34,399 --> 00:32:36,960
one cares

975
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,279
one thing though

976
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,200
the office got to stay

977
00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:43,679
but otherwise everything is completely

978
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,760
above board and legit

979
00:32:43,679 --> 00:32:47,519
already then the cracks were between

980
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,039
like you know nudging him in the ribs

981
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:50,399
maybe you should

982
00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,519
stay here

983
00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:54,159
yeah

984
00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:55,279
yeah that's precious i i i really enjoy

985
00:32:54,159 --> 00:32:57,360
that kind of

986
00:32:55,279 --> 00:32:58,320
that kind of game play i think it opens

987
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,600
up

988
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,399
it opens up a

989
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,640
can of worms as we say here the that

990
00:33:02,399 --> 00:33:06,159
because then the debate is often okay if

991
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,799
that's allowable

992
00:33:06,159 --> 00:33:11,120
you have guilds are allowable

993
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:14,080
what else is allowable and then people

994
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:16,320
begin to well what's the line of yeah

995
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,080
sacrificing aging because we have a

996
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,720
system we have a game system that runs a

997
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:23,519
certain way they're i'm not taking i'm

998
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,200
not going to tell the game master i i as

999
00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:27,440
a game master i'm not willing to lose

1000
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,600
all of my options within the rules just

1001
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,840
because if someone doesn't like them

1002
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,159
but yeah it's i'm uncomfortable with

1003
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,640
kias but i'm i'm also uncomfortable with

1004
00:33:34,159 --> 00:33:39,279
removing it and from the world entirely

1005
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,360
as an option right mm-hmm yeah yeah

1006
00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:43,279
precisely no and i totally get i like i

1007
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,720
know as i said i opened that tweet with

1008
00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:49,279
i know this is bad practice so it's but

1009
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,320
it's it's it's difficult

1010
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:51,919
and um

1011
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,600
i must admit maybe i'm blessed but you

1012
00:33:51,919 --> 00:33:54,640
know my players have been subject to

1013
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,399
it's gonna make me sound like a horrible

1014
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,919
dm um but have been subject to charm

1015
00:33:56,399 --> 00:33:59,679
person before in the past but actually

1016
00:33:57,919 --> 00:34:02,080
they've they've really led into it so

1017
00:33:59,679 --> 00:34:04,320
they were fighting some some kobolds

1018
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,159
scale sorcerers who've got charm person

1019
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,440
and also they can use sorcery points to

1020
00:34:06,159 --> 00:34:09,119
get around the advantage that the

1021
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,320
players would have on the safe and one

1022
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:12,079
failed

1023
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,520
and uh

1024
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:16,079
he actually dealt with it he was like oh

1025
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,480
okay i walk over to the cobold and just

1026
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:20,480
say like dude what's up why are we wife

1027
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,879
why am i friends fighting well i don't

1028
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,800
any he was completely willing to give up

1029
00:34:22,879 --> 00:34:27,119
his action his in you know his action

1030
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,800
economy completely and uh he was like i

1031
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:30,480
use my action just to ask

1032
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,839
can we not talk about like

1033
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,960
let's just chill out guys why are we

1034
00:34:31,839 --> 00:34:35,599
flying here

1035
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,240
which i i was super stoked with

1036
00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:39,760
yeah charm person is a great example of

1037
00:34:38,240 --> 00:34:42,079
where the line of agency is because it's

1038
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,760
blurry right it's not telling you you

1039
00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:46,560
have to act in a certain way so it's not

1040
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,720
removing entirely your agency it's just

1041
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,639
telling you you view this person as a

1042
00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:52,960
close and trusted friend

1043
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:55,119
that's it and then you're you're free to

1044
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,839
interpret that as you want now some

1045
00:34:55,119 --> 00:35:00,000
players as i spoke of earlier some will

1046
00:34:57,839 --> 00:35:01,440
buck against that reality and they'll do

1047
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,800
something in a metagame sense to

1048
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,000
undermine it

1049
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,760
some will embrace it and think okay well

1050
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,440
this is what i would do if i believe my

1051
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,800
friends were fighting like you just said

1052
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,640
right then that's that's really

1053
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,160
brilliant that's brilliant

1054
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,920
i i think it's questionable as to

1055
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,240
whether they're losing their agency it's

1056
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,079
just limiting their options yes because

1057
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:22,560
you see similar arguments about there's

1058
00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:24,320
sort of a descending scale of of

1059
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,240
arguments about where agency lies charm

1060
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,800
person is firmly in the middle and very

1061
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,720
difficult to ascertain

1062
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,800
i'm being pointing out that i want to be

1063
00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:34,400
clear about this there's a fundamental

1064
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,200
difference we have to assume when we're

1065
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,920
in for this topic i'm discussing agency

1066
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,280
as a good faith effort that everybody is

1067
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,880
showing up with a good faith effort to

1068
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,960
be healthy and there's just a

1069
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,599
misunderstanding and a misnegotiation

1070
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,520
there are versions of of uh of agents

1071
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:51,760
loss of agency that are toxic and

1072
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,599
harmful and that's probably worthy of a

1073
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,000
whole show in and of itself but i can't

1074
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:57,760
unpack there that yeah and charm person

1075
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,680
is it clear is one of the spells brought

1076
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,280
up often about those problematic

1077
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,040
behaviors they're still problematic i'm

1078
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,800
just not addressing those here yeah but

1079
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,079
in the descending scale you know with

1080
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,839
charmed person in the middle and

1081
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:10,560
guillais at the top then you get into

1082
00:36:07,839 --> 00:36:12,560
like sleep and paralysis and things like

1083
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,000
that it's can induce horror but i do

1084
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,920
think that's gets back to a

1085
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,680
misconceptions i said earlier in the in

1086
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,320
the broadcast here that

1087
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,079
conditions aren't a removal of agency

1088
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,800
like you still have consequences

1089
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:26,480
suffering consequences is not a removal

1090
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:30,079
of agencies that that that's actually

1091
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,599
the the product of agency right um that

1092
00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:33,359
i i often see that as the counter

1093
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:35,280
argument so so just to sort of head that

1094
00:36:33,359 --> 00:36:36,560
off at the past i think that's the

1095
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,480
argument people immediately make but

1096
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,079
what about going to zero hit points or

1097
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,320
being unconscious or sleep those are

1098
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:44,800
conditions that are the result of your

1099
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,480
exercising of agency earlier um and

1100
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,040
those are just outcomes we we can't

1101
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,119
provide a world where you're free of the

1102
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,720
of the consequences of exercising your

1103
00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:53,680
agency

1104
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:54,720
so i think that that's where that

1105
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,800
conversation and one of the

1106
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:58,000
misunderstandings of where agency lies i

1107
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,960
think that's where one of those things

1108
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,480
go wrong

1109
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,240
yeah you're absolutely right and the

1110
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,680
result of having a world free of

1111
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:07,119
reactions or conditions is that actually

1112
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,040
the ironic thing is your agency means

1113
00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:10,720
even less because there's nothing off

1114
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,640
the back of it so it's actually kind of

1115
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:14,800
like a snakey its own tail kind of thing

1116
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,640
oh that's a great point of view your

1117
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,119
agency means less if there are no

1118
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,880
consequences for your choices i never

1119
00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:23,200
verbalized it in that way

1120
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,720
no that's great you're reducing the

1121
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,400
quality oh that's great i have to think

1122
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:26,830
about that there's a tweet in here

1123
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,119
somewhere

1124
00:37:26,830 --> 00:37:31,359
[Laughter]

1125
00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:32,960
oh good i'm glad to to

1126
00:37:31,359 --> 00:37:34,480
i was hoping you would just lead all

1127
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,480
this with your expertise but i'm really

1128
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,440
chuffed to have actually provided some

1129
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,440
some some

1130
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,960
material from my side yeah that's that's

1131
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,599
what it is right because i funny enough

1132
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,760
i am i it was another tweet i was i was

1133
00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:46,960
talking to somebody around and i think

1134
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,839
it was someone else responded to that

1135
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,320
guest

1136
00:37:47,839 --> 00:37:52,320
question i had of mine and again said

1137
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,720
you know probably shouldn't use it

1138
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,800
but i was i basically said you know

1139
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,160
similarly at some point there needs to

1140
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,800
be some actions to consequences

1141
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,400
otherwise i mean and you can play a game

1142
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:06,000
in a setting where there are no actions

1143
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:09,920
to any consequences but that is like a

1144
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,839
vastly different game to 99 of games i

1145
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:14,079
would imagine sure it's not my game i'll

1146
00:38:11,839 --> 00:38:16,400
say that's all i'll say it's not mike

1147
00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:18,000
yeah yeah precisely actually i'll throw

1148
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,760
i'll throw an example of where i think

1149
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,680
that more commonly happens because the

1150
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,000
effect is the same even though it may be

1151
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,400
not a spell but prisoner scenarios and

1152
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,599
games those are notoriously difficult to

1153
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,359
gain master for and players notoriously

1154
00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:34,000
you know chomp at that bit to get out of

1155
00:38:31,359 --> 00:38:35,520
it and it it's in a sense of a lot a

1156
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,599
loss of agency you know players are

1157
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,960
taken prisoner they're captured put into

1158
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:40,880
some sort of prisoner and now they're

1159
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,119
vulnerable if they act out maybe they're

1160
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,440
executed and that's almost always the

1161
00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:48,160
number one problem dms have players get

1162
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,599
captured they act up they sass the

1163
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,240
guards or they do something that would

1164
00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:53,520
cause in in most game masters worlds the

1165
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,800
guards should just say okay well i'm not

1166
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,400
doing this and

1167
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,440
stab them or throw them out a window or

1168
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,359
something like that that you don't want

1169
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,760
to happen as a game master

1170
00:38:59,359 --> 00:39:04,400
and that's that's an example of where

1171
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,000
it's really often it's not always but if

1172
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,680
you get captured from some set of

1173
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,520
actions that's a cons that's a

1174
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,760
consequence of your choices and you have

1175
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,359
to play through that and

1176
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,720
players need to take a step back and

1177
00:39:13,359 --> 00:39:16,560
think about okay

1178
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:18,079
what is what am i trying to do here

1179
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,720
overall with my character if they're

1180
00:39:18,079 --> 00:39:22,800
just acting out of frustration that can

1181
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:24,960
often be misuse of agency on the part of

1182
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,800
the players um hopefully game masters

1183
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,359
are causing that but honestly we're not

1184
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,880
perfect we're games go south sometimes

1185
00:39:29,359 --> 00:39:32,400
and you have a bad session and you want

1186
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,400
to recover from that

1187
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,320
and sometimes you need a session to

1188
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,480
recover from that so often players are

1189
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,079
captured but sometimes game masters

1190
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,520
introduce those things without thinking

1191
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:43,440
sometimes

1192
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,599
maybe this is another sort of branching

1193
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,880
the topic but in terms of segwaying

1194
00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:48,720
one of the other

1195
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,040
pitfalls of agency as far as game

1196
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:54,320
masters go is they they don't understand

1197
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:56,400
the the line between something they like

1198
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,040
the idea of someone doing

1199
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,359
and someone like liking to do that they

1200
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,760
don't understand those are two separate

1201
00:40:01,359 --> 00:40:05,520
things like as a game master sometimes

1202
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,040
you get it caught up in and i'll use

1203
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,359
again the prison scenario i've seen a

1204
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,599
number of game masters come back with

1205
00:40:09,359 --> 00:40:13,119
this idea wouldn't it be really cool

1206
00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:15,119
this actually happened on twitter within

1207
00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:17,119
the last month someone put a premise to

1208
00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:19,359
a game for me it wouldn't be great if we

1209
00:40:17,119 --> 00:40:20,960
started in a prison everybody was first

1210
00:40:19,359 --> 00:40:22,800
level and it was an escape scenario and

1211
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,280
the ones that didn't survive wouldn't be

1212
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,520
the player characters and my reply was

1213
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,520
that sounds like something that you like

1214
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:32,319
the idea of as a game master but the

1215
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,079
players would not really like it to play

1216
00:40:32,319 --> 00:40:34,880
through right and i think that's

1217
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:36,560
something that's another

1218
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,800
misunderstanding episode of agency this

1219
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,880
idea of you liking what somebody else is

1220
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,640
going to do versus them actually liking

1221
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,920
to do it mm-hmm

1222
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,680
i don't know where to go from that but

1223
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,960
that's my thoughts there no no that's a

1224
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,240
good example of

1225
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,359
and i've talked about previous episodes

1226
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,839
of that like

1227
00:40:49,359 --> 00:40:54,079
perception difference between gms and

1228
00:40:51,839 --> 00:40:55,599
players it's vast sometimes it's vast

1229
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:57,839
you're always trying to push it

1230
00:40:55,599 --> 00:41:00,560
together but sometimes and in that case

1231
00:40:57,839 --> 00:41:02,160
it could be the player the gm saying

1232
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,680
oh they'll love it because there's 101

1233
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,440
ways they could escape from this prison

1234
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,800
but then the players there going

1235
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,640
i'm literally in prison and there's

1236
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,800
nothing i can do here

1237
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,480
i didn't think of any of them right yeah

1238
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,800
so it's useless to me

1239
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,560
yeah yeah exactly what is your escape

1240
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,520
game master what an eye game master and

1241
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:22,000
you play through this game

1242
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,400
exactly exactly yeah it's

1243
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,440
i think charm person

1244
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:30,480
suggestion and oh i've put my characters

1245
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:33,359
in prison i like beginner gm bingo it

1246
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,599
gets everybody out at some point you

1247
00:41:33,359 --> 00:41:37,680
know the first time i remember the first

1248
00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:39,520
time i was jamming and a place like i

1249
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,160
cast suggestion on the npc and

1250
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,079
immediately i'm like oh my god this is a

1251
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,800
whole book of

1252
00:41:44,079 --> 00:41:48,560
theory that i haven't even begin to to

1253
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,640
where's the line what do they really

1254
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,040
want to do how far is the npc willing to

1255
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:56,160
go what does being a friend mean

1256
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:58,960
like you're asking all these huge

1257
00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:00,480
loaded esoteric questions off of such a

1258
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,040
an innocent

1259
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,319
cast fireball it's it's that small to

1260
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,240
the player

1261
00:42:04,319 --> 00:42:08,560
yeah and it's actually worth

1262
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:10,079
noting like we talk about

1263
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,599
your agency and reduction of agents

1264
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:13,680
again gets into this

1265
00:42:11,599 --> 00:42:14,800
ethical concern and what's good and good

1266
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,280
not to do

1267
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:20,160
i my experience anyway is the players

1268
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,880
are vastly more likely to be doing an

1269
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,920
inappropriate action than the people in

1270
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,000
my world

1271
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,880
right vastly like i don't know how many

1272
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,599
players have tortured uh you know npcs

1273
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,359
or uh you know just because they didn't

1274
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:35,920
know what they wanted to do or gotten

1275
00:42:33,359 --> 00:42:37,680
people killed or yeah persuaded them in

1276
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,839
some weird creepy way i've had a few

1277
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:42,400
i've had way more comfort i have not had

1278
00:42:39,839 --> 00:42:45,440
that many but the few conversations i've

1279
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:47,520
ever had to have of okay this is going

1280
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,920
too far

1281
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,240
i think 95 of those situations have been

1282
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,119
me to a player rather than a player to

1283
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:54,960
me

1284
00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:57,359
yeah i'm lucky in that the few games

1285
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,359
that i've run i've not had anything that

1286
00:42:57,359 --> 00:43:00,720
would that would be

1287
00:42:59,359 --> 00:43:02,160
like that my current guys have pushed it

1288
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,440
in a couple of instances of being i'm

1289
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,520
like you guys that

1290
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,920
right now in this snapshot you guys are

1291
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,119
like psychopaths i just want you to know

1292
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,040
let me let me

1293
00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:12,640
from an outsider's perspective this is

1294
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,560
what it looks like to an outsider's

1295
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,240
perspective i know you guys have got

1296
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,920
like reasons coming out the wazoo for

1297
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:20,560
what you're doing right now but

1298
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,240
as a snapshot i need you to appreciate

1299
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,119
this yes so going forward like if you

1300
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:26,560
keep this course of action

1301
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:28,480
the fair warning

1302
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,319
yeah i i struggle with that as a game

1303
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,480
master sometimes i don't realize they're

1304
00:43:30,319 --> 00:43:34,640
taking that action until they do it i

1305
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,599
mean i'll give just a small example in

1306
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,599
lost minds of fan delver and one of the

1307
00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:41,359
player characters who's a um

1308
00:43:39,599 --> 00:43:42,960
who's a paladin they go down the first

1309
00:43:41,359 --> 00:43:44,160
time they encounter the red brands who

1310
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,920
are so the bad guys i don't think

1311
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,160
there's any spoilers here but all they

1312
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,160
do they they literally just rough them

1313
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,680
they start a fight with them immediately

1314
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,960
rough one of them up drag them to the

1315
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,560
center town douse them in in uh lamp oil

1316
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,520
threatening to light them light them on

1317
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:01,359
fire in front of the rest of the town

1318
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,200
and i didn't know what to do as a gamer

1319
00:44:01,359 --> 00:44:05,040
so i'm trying to i'm trying not to take

1320
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,960
the player's agency away like i don't

1321
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,560
want to go you can't do that that's bad

1322
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,920
but i'm trying to give them a sign

1323
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,760
because we were a new group to playing

1324
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,000
together so i they don't have a le they

1325
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,920
haven't level set yet and um so i'm

1326
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,319
trying to give them some sign of the how

1327
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,000
the world sees this which is the town

1328
00:44:18,319 --> 00:44:22,480
gathering around and going wait a minute

1329
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:25,040
wait a minute what's happening slow down

1330
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,800
slow down and it just spiraled out of

1331
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,160
control so

1332
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,520
i mean i do think that there's this

1333
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,240
maybe that maybe the topic i'm trying to

1334
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:34,160
say there is there's this early period

1335
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:36,319
in a game even if you've done all the

1336
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,880
session zero stuff and all where you're

1337
00:44:36,319 --> 00:44:41,760
getting used to each other and you don't

1338
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,920
you just shoot way past some line and

1339
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,720
don't realize it by using your agency to

1340
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,480
do that because this player assumed

1341
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,079
it was just an innocent i don't know

1342
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,839
grand theft auto moment i i don't know

1343
00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:54,560
what they were thinking to be honest but

1344
00:44:51,839 --> 00:44:57,040
but but that's just like wow agency can

1345
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,079
just shoot way past your boundaries so

1346
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,599
quickly

1347
00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:00,640
that you need to it's hard to rein it

1348
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,160
back in

1349
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,680
yeah no it ties into what we talked

1350
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,200
about earlier on about how the

1351
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,560
expectations might be different so one

1352
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,200
player is expecting one thing you do

1353
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:11,200
another and just just that those two the

1354
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,760
immovable object and the unstoppable

1355
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,680
force has suddenly gone to okay we're at

1356
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,400
a bonfire now and i guess covered in oil

1357
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,000
and

1358
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,520
i don't think anyone was expecting it to

1359
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,480
go this far

1360
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,480
uh

1361
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,480
that's such a tricky i like i feel for

1362
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,119
you because i would such an awkward

1363
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,359
situation i think my advice would be in

1364
00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:31,119
that gestation period that you said

1365
00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:32,400
there like post session zero but still

1366
00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:34,880
in the early days

1367
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:37,040
i was thinking maybe as a gm because you

1368
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,079
have more power to do so would be to

1369
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,200
maybe

1370
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:41,359
maybe this isn't a good idea actually

1371
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,400
now i'm saying out loud but to

1372
00:45:41,359 --> 00:45:47,040
layer on a little bit heavier uh the the

1373
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,680
reactionary elements just to embed it in

1374
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:53,040
an early stage to say

1375
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:55,119
maybe if you antagonize this guard maybe

1376
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,280
because with session two ten guards show

1377
00:45:55,119 --> 00:45:58,960
up and are like don't beat up our friend

1378
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,400
just uh maybe i don't know maybe that's

1379
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,359
maybe that's bad because that's setting

1380
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,280
a false expectation and is then

1381
00:46:03,359 --> 00:46:06,960
you know the gm overstepping their

1382
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,040
boundaries i don't know but if it helps

1383
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,480
to reinforce that hey

1384
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,599
antagonizing guards is going to get us

1385
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,440
in trouble

1386
00:46:11,599 --> 00:46:15,680
i don't know i'm just yeah no that's

1387
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,200
great advice i wish i i've had different

1388
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,280
again i've been gaming for 40 years so i

1389
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,599
had different with that in particular

1390
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,040
group honestly we i ended up getting we

1391
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:25,200
went for months

1392
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,160
we had problem after problem like that

1393
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,520
of just misaligned expectations it ended

1394
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,880
with um

1395
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,680
with them being knocked out with a

1396
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,960
fireball this mage that literally had

1397
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,040
i'd set this whole thing up where he

1398
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,319
could read their mind and uh they were

1399
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,680
literally talking back and forth about

1400
00:46:38,319 --> 00:46:42,079
he has nice stuff we should kill him and

1401
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,160
take his stuff and this mage is like

1402
00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:45,520
what and he was even like point i was

1403
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,359
trying to role play through he's pouring

1404
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,800
them tea and be like oh you know i

1405
00:46:47,359 --> 00:46:50,240
really think we should work together

1406
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,599
here and like

1407
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:53,839
they just wouldn't do it so he just

1408
00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:56,400
fireballed him on the road and i had and

1409
00:46:53,839 --> 00:46:57,760
i um i ended up closing that game i just

1410
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,560
ended up moving on because it was a

1411
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,000
misconception but when i do it well

1412
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,599
because sometimes i get good i've caught

1413
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,680
off guard and sometimes i just got

1414
00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:07,760
nothing i'm reacting and like whoa i'm

1415
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,520
trying to backpedal quickly but when i

1416
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,720
do it well i usually just cause a pause

1417
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,680
and i say oh i see what you're trying to

1418
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,760
do here

1419
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,000
generally i run the world a little bit

1420
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,839
less murder hoboish but i try to give

1421
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,280
them something in return right

1422
00:47:17,839 --> 00:47:21,359
negotiation is always about giving

1423
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,599
something up so i let them know i'm

1424
00:47:21,359 --> 00:47:25,839
already sacrificing agency or you you

1425
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:27,920
don't realize that i'm not going to have

1426
00:47:25,839 --> 00:47:29,920
every npc you run across is not going to

1427
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,160
try to kill you what you're gaining by

1428
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:34,160
not acting this way in the world

1429
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,760
is that the world is not going to try to

1430
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,920
kill you and dump you in a ditch at

1431
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,599
every turn most people don't murder each

1432
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,040
other over central disagreements that's

1433
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:43,200
what i'm telling you about the world

1434
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,599
most people uh once they've won the

1435
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,640
fight they have no no compulsion to sort

1436
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:48,400
of

1437
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,160
kill you so you you have a chance of

1438
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,839
just of stabilizing if you're knocked

1439
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,960
out or being captured so that that's

1440
00:47:51,839 --> 00:47:54,400
what we're trading off here i want you

1441
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,200
to understand that's where the world is

1442
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,720
so if you act like a murderer

1443
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,880
the world is going to treat you like a

1444
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,400
murderer and a lot of people can accept

1445
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,000
that logic but

1446
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,920
i that's really where agency is

1447
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,319
interesting you know there's there's not

1448
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,240
a bad way or a good way to do it it's

1449
00:48:08,319 --> 00:48:12,880
just your style right some people like

1450
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:14,319
that escapism some people heck some some

1451
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,480
people there's an assumption now this is

1452
00:48:14,319 --> 00:48:18,400
an interesting part of agency to me in

1453
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:21,040
modern d d especially when you look at

1454
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,720
module creation um ryman the frost

1455
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,760
maiden being the last module released

1456
00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:27,599
for for the from the official set is is

1457
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,839
more of this than any module i've seen

1458
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:32,800
previously but it assumes the players

1459
00:48:29,839 --> 00:48:34,880
want to be heroes it deeply assumes that

1460
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:38,079
as a fundamental assumption of the

1461
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:40,319
module itself not a bad assumption but

1462
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:42,240
uh coming from older school d d i can

1463
00:48:40,319 --> 00:48:44,240
tell you most of the history of d d did

1464
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:47,119
not assume that it left it up to the

1465
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:49,440
player evil was a was a totally valid

1466
00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:51,760
alignment to choose now i never liked

1467
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,880
that i never really enjoyed evil i get

1468
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,760
enough of that in the world i don't need

1469
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,040
that in my games um but it was always

1470
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,359
it's it was never thought of as an

1471
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,440
invalid option just not fun

1472
00:48:59,359 --> 00:49:03,520
but now it's sort of assumed that the

1473
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,599
players want to be heroes and there's a

1474
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,319
there's an assertion being made in some

1475
00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:10,319
modules about what heroism even is which

1476
00:49:08,319 --> 00:49:11,280
is an interesting topic but the core of

1477
00:49:10,319 --> 00:49:13,920
it is

1478
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,319
it's assuming you have that we're all on

1479
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:18,960
board to play a certain way which is a

1480
00:49:16,319 --> 00:49:21,760
curious lack of agency

1481
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,200
for for a central module and i i really

1482
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,119
don't think it's it's a place of the

1483
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,280
module to make that assertion

1484
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:29,040
but yeah anyway i don't really have

1485
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,559
other than observing from a historic

1486
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,400
point of view that this is a fundamental

1487
00:49:30,559 --> 00:49:34,400
shift an assumption for published

1488
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,920
adventures i'm not quite sure what to

1489
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,559
think about it um

1490
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,559
but i'll note that it's happening

1491
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:41,760
i've had very little experience i

1492
00:49:40,559 --> 00:49:43,680
welcome

1493
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,040
the experience of the modules and stuff

1494
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,559
i would say that

1495
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,079
i would consider

1496
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:49,520
pretty much in any setting in any module

1497
00:49:48,079 --> 00:49:52,720
it to be

1498
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:54,559
heroism agnostic i suppose in a way

1499
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:56,559
like it shouldn't matter what as you

1500
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:59,839
said there should be no presumptions

1501
00:49:56,559 --> 00:50:01,280
that the players are gonna be the heroes

1502
00:49:59,839 --> 00:50:02,800
when you you're reading of modern

1503
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,880
modules would you

1504
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,960
assert that that's assumptions that

1505
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,800
those modules share do you what do you

1506
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:11,119
think about the underlying assumptions

1507
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:14,800
of current modules i as i have a huge

1508
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:17,040
amount of experience um i know more from

1509
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,800
i know like the infamy certain modules

1510
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,280
have rather than the

1511
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,200
the nitty-gritty details like tomb of uh

1512
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,359
tomb of horror is that thing yeah and

1513
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:28,000
like casastrad can be

1514
00:50:25,359 --> 00:50:29,440
a bit unwelcoming shall we say

1515
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,079
in the beginning straight so i'm not i'm

1516
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:35,599
not too i have to say familiar with the

1517
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:37,760
nuances and the specific themes of them

1518
00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:40,319
except that if i were to write

1519
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,559
one i would expect it to be hero heroism

1520
00:50:40,319 --> 00:50:44,640
agnostic which is a term i shall

1521
00:50:42,559 --> 00:50:46,800
endeavor to coin uh

1522
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,559
yeah no that's great and i love that you

1523
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,800
brought up cursive straw because that

1524
00:50:48,559 --> 00:50:52,800
curse of strata has become the skyrim of

1525
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,480
uh of d d modules where they just

1526
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,000
re-release that they're doubling down a

1527
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,760
lot and curse themselves no shade on

1528
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,440
cursive strat it's a great module i

1529
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,119
remember when ravenloft came out but

1530
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,160
it's interesting from an agency point of

1531
00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:04,559
view because

1532
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,400
it starts by removing your agency it

1533
00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:08,640
starts by trapping you

1534
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,800
and say that's it buddy you're here and

1535
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,760
you're not going home unless you beat

1536
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,079
straw

1537
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,480
right well yep um and it's an

1538
00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:18,319
interesting mod like what if your

1539
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,160
your play group doesn't want to do that

1540
00:51:18,319 --> 00:51:21,680
like what if some you know game master

1541
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,240
springs that on some play group and

1542
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:26,000
they're like but i rolled up this

1543
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:28,319
you know happy fluffy

1544
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,960
shader character who's going to do and

1545
00:51:28,319 --> 00:51:32,480
now i'm in you know borovia or whatever

1546
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,079
yeah i don't want to do i want to play i

1547
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:36,480
want to play pipes in the in every

1548
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:38,640
cavern we go into and tell tall tales

1549
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,760
and then suddenly i'm not now in this

1550
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:44,480
gritty here right right so agency is

1551
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,480
always on rails in d d we just we we try

1552
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,319
not we pray to pretend that it's it's

1553
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,359
completely open even in the most

1554
00:51:48,319 --> 00:51:52,800
sandboxy world there's a limit of what

1555
00:51:51,359 --> 00:51:54,960
choices will get you

1556
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,559
so strata isn't unusual in that case

1557
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,800
it's just it's just very opinionated

1558
00:51:56,559 --> 00:52:00,640
about doing it up front and

1559
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,920
very obviously but all modules kind of

1560
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,599
do that like

1561
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:06,000
for all this talk about sandbox i don't

1562
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:08,559
know any game master that pulls an

1563
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,640
entirely different plot out of thin air

1564
00:52:08,559 --> 00:52:12,000
no and to some degree like the players

1565
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,119
well i i don't want to go on that

1566
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,960
adventure

1567
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:16,960
it's a totally valid answer for the game

1568
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:19,280
master say okay well you guys sit around

1569
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:22,559
for a year yeah

1570
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,920
yeah it's a social contract again like

1571
00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:25,680
you might not want to be heroes but you

1572
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,680
want to go on an adventure at the very

1573
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:30,240
least so someone wants to leave their

1574
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,040
city and not watch television all day or

1575
00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:32,480
you know

1576
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,319
the fantasy equivalent whatever that

1577
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:36,559
might be right so so there's an

1578
00:52:34,319 --> 00:52:37,839
assumption that we will use our agency

1579
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:39,760
together

1580
00:52:37,839 --> 00:52:43,280
to head in a direction right we won't

1581
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:45,440
use it adversarially yes precisely good

1582
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,200
segue there because i had a i a comment

1583
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,480
here that i wanted to talk about about

1584
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,359
sandbox

1585
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:53,520
like truly sandbox games and i know

1586
00:52:51,359 --> 00:52:56,400
as we just said no game is truly 100

1587
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:59,280
sandbox so on and so on but i wanted to

1588
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:02,480
ask you about could too much agency

1589
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:04,800
player agency to be precise be a bad

1590
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,880
thing so i'm talking more about like

1591
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,040
analysis paralysis to a certain extent

1592
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:12,160
absolutely i actually think that that's

1593
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:14,960
uh and and i again i'm my my real world

1594
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,960
i deal with marketing and do lots of

1595
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,760
things too many options is actually

1596
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:22,240
people stop to stop making choices after

1597
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:24,240
a while there's just too many and they

1598
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:26,559
they they exactly get into analysis

1599
00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:28,160
paralysis as opposed to well these were

1600
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:29,440
my three i'll just take one they don't

1601
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,400
get into

1602
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,839
um so i i absolutely think sandboxy they

1603
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:37,200
have to have some

1604
00:53:33,839 --> 00:53:39,280
the the nature of games is is strange

1605
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,760
because they're they're really

1606
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:44,319
kind of reactive you know protagonist

1607
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,599
from a book from a novel is reactive

1608
00:53:44,319 --> 00:53:47,920
almost always right there they're

1609
00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:50,480
reacting to what the the proactive

1610
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,240
character the antagonist is doing

1611
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:55,200
and that's almost always a setup now

1612
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:57,040
there's a bleed over to that in games

1613
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,040
but this doesn't have to be that way

1614
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:01,280
like this is actually i as a player i

1615
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,680
sometimes have difficulties

1616
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,720
with dms because i'm extremely proactive

1617
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,160
i i want these outcomes and i'm again

1618
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,319
maybe because in real life i deal with a

1619
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,079
lot of startups i'm really into like

1620
00:54:10,319 --> 00:54:14,319
nope i'm going to go do this and i'm i

1621
00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:16,240
hit fandom and lost mine's a fan delver

1622
00:54:14,319 --> 00:54:18,160
i want to establish a town guard i want

1623
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:19,760
a town council to get together i'm going

1624
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,280
to befriend all the merchants to make

1625
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,640
that happen i'm going to do this and

1626
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,280
that the other thing and game masters

1627
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,960
don't know what to do with that right

1628
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:29,119
they they had their adventure prepared

1629
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,040
and they go whoa whoa whoa i i don't

1630
00:54:29,119 --> 00:54:32,960
know what to do with this or sometimes

1631
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,119
they like i don't want to do all that

1632
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,960
i really just want to have a fight and

1633
00:54:35,119 --> 00:54:39,520
that's okay but

1634
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:42,079
so i actually do think sandboxes can

1635
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:45,200
work but it requires a whole different

1636
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:47,119
set of skills mostly on the player's

1637
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:49,280
side mostly because they

1638
00:54:47,119 --> 00:54:51,920
one of the things players mistake agency

1639
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:54,559
for is asking the dm for options and

1640
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,160
then saying no they want the vm to lay

1641
00:54:54,559 --> 00:54:57,599
out a buffet of options in front of them

1642
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,599
and go no i don't want to do that they

1643
00:54:57,599 --> 00:55:01,760
don't have an idea themselves they want

1644
00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:03,839
to just reject the ideas given to them

1645
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:06,160
and then as a game master is not really

1646
00:55:03,839 --> 00:55:07,760
a fun way to game master what you want

1647
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:10,079
is if the players want to seize control

1648
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,839
they want to be the ones to have an idea

1649
00:55:10,079 --> 00:55:14,640
they want to say well you know what i

1650
00:55:11,839 --> 00:55:15,760
want to look for for for museums in town

1651
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,920
they might have an art collection

1652
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,599
because i want to stage a heist okay i

1653
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,079
got i got something to work with as a

1654
00:55:19,599 --> 00:55:23,520
game master now right it's not just

1655
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:25,839
hey game master is there anything

1656
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,040
valuable in town like i don't know i

1657
00:55:25,839 --> 00:55:29,680
don't know is there what are you looking

1658
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,359
for that gave me more information and um

1659
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,599
so i think i think they can work i just

1660
00:55:31,359 --> 00:55:35,599
think they're a wholly different game

1661
00:55:33,599 --> 00:55:37,599
that requires much much much much more

1662
00:55:35,599 --> 00:55:39,839
work on the part of the players than we

1663
00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:41,680
appreciate it's not just a

1664
00:55:39,839 --> 00:55:43,599
game master give you know deal me

1665
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,079
encounters until i get the one i like

1666
00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:47,920
that's that's not what a sandbox

1667
00:55:46,079 --> 00:55:49,359
yeah i saw the reason i asked that

1668
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,359
question is because i saw a post i think

1669
00:55:49,359 --> 00:55:53,440
it was in the facebook group for dms and

1670
00:55:51,359 --> 00:55:56,160
i felt really sorry for the dm in

1671
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,280
question poor guy because it sounded

1672
00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:00,079
like

1673
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,599
he'd heard horror stories of don't have

1674
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:03,440
a railroad if you railroad you're the

1675
00:56:01,599 --> 00:56:04,880
worst dm in the world and that's the

1676
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,920
last thing you should do and so on and

1677
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,319
so on

1678
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:10,720
so he's they've gone out of their way

1679
00:56:08,319 --> 00:56:12,799
to just completely make it like i hate

1680
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:14,640
rails there's no rails anywhere anywhere

1681
00:56:12,799 --> 00:56:16,480
near the players and he's like but

1682
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,640
players aren't doing anything because i

1683
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,880
just go into town and i'm like

1684
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,640
what are we doing here and the dm's like

1685
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,760
i couldn't ever possibly even suggest

1686
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,839
what you might

1687
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,040
remotely want to be doing it's up to you

1688
00:56:25,839 --> 00:56:28,400
and of course they are like you said

1689
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,280
they're just like

1690
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,559
okay

1691
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,200
i guess we'll

1692
00:56:30,559 --> 00:56:34,640
go to bed yeah

1693
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,799
but that's an important and that this

1694
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:38,400
does tie to agency railroading is a

1695
00:56:36,799 --> 00:56:40,960
perfectly valid way to game master but

1696
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,920
people misunderstand what railroading is

1697
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,240
people

1698
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:46,480
having as sort of this encounter moves

1699
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:47,920
to that encounter move to that encounter

1700
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,319
that's railroading and that's actually

1701
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,760
perfectly fine if you go if a lot of

1702
00:56:50,319 --> 00:56:54,000
modules are set up that way you go to

1703
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,520
xanathar's lair you you fight some of

1704
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,520
his bullies you find the clue that moves

1705
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,119
you to the next encounter and that's the

1706
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:01,520
way it goes that that's kind of a

1707
00:56:59,119 --> 00:57:03,680
railroad but that's okay people mistake

1708
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:06,319
the game master's only giving you one

1709
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:09,040
outcome one option to choose that's

1710
00:57:06,319 --> 00:57:10,480
actually bad so just saying well so i

1711
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,640
brought up earlier tomb of horrors

1712
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,400
that's a horrible adventure i know

1713
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,079
old-timers especially man i love my

1714
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,400
old-timers but i just i don't identify

1715
00:57:16,079 --> 00:57:20,400
with them often um they love to put that

1716
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,040
as a great module it's a horrible module

1717
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:25,200
there's a lot of this is the one answer

1718
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:27,920
to this one question and if you don't

1719
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,920
pick this non-obvious way of doing it

1720
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:32,160
you fail the module and you die that's

1721
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,599
hard that's very toxic railroading yeah

1722
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,119
as opposed to saying well you're going

1723
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:37,440
to go to this location find this

1724
00:57:35,119 --> 00:57:39,040
information move to this next location

1725
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,880
and there's not really a lot of ways to

1726
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,040
to vary those those sequence of

1727
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:45,440
encounters but you can determine how you

1728
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:47,680
move through the encounter i i i think

1729
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,920
railroading is perfectly fine dictating

1730
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:52,640
the only only one choice to move things

1731
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:54,400
forward that's not really railroading i

1732
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,079
think that needs a different term but

1733
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,680
that that's generally what people mean

1734
00:57:56,079 --> 00:57:59,599
and that that's a loss of agency that's

1735
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,119
actually not yeah i agree yeah i was

1736
00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:02,480
just about to say that that is

1737
00:58:01,119 --> 00:58:05,760
equivalent to

1738
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:07,119
casting gas and saying do this thing

1739
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:10,559
yeah it's essentially the same you've

1740
00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:13,599
just dressed it up as dm fiat at that

1741
00:58:10,559 --> 00:58:16,160
point yeah yeah so i've it's a it's a

1742
00:58:13,599 --> 00:58:18,480
balance i think and i like to set up a

1743
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,079
house of cards essentially in each of my

1744
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,000
chapters and then

1745
00:58:20,079 --> 00:58:23,760
let the players lose with slingshots to

1746
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,520
knock down to knock the house of cards

1747
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,599
down but how they do that is is

1748
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:30,160
completely up to them but

1749
00:58:27,599 --> 00:58:32,400
i am a huge huge proponent of like you

1750
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,160
said the antagonists being

1751
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:36,000
proactive to a certain extent so like

1752
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,839
there's always like the house of cards

1753
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,160
are set up or the dominoes are there

1754
00:58:37,839 --> 00:58:42,400
and the antagonist might be willing to

1755
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,760
push over his domino on his end based on

1756
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,520
some certain context and that's going to

1757
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,880
happen whether players do something or

1758
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,559
not that you know that kind of thing

1759
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,839
like if the players never turned up

1760
00:58:48,559 --> 00:58:50,880
that's still going to be knocked over

1761
00:58:49,839 --> 00:58:52,640
and those dominoes are going to fall

1762
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,240
down and next time players turn up it's

1763
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,480
it's because they weren't there i've had

1764
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,480
players actually ask me does the world

1765
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,319
does they actually use this term does

1766
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:02,160
the simulation run in the background so

1767
00:59:00,319 --> 00:59:04,160
you can tell they're coming from uh

1768
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:06,240
computer games where you get a question

1769
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,680
the quest kind of hangs out there even

1770
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,440
though they'll often say this is urgent

1771
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,680
you need to do it right away yeah it'll

1772
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,960
wait until you get there uh yeah i

1773
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,640
what's the point of doing that in a

1774
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,599
tabletop game right

1775
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:20,160
i so yeah the world runs risk management

1776
00:59:17,599 --> 00:59:22,160
deciding on where your likely outcomes

1777
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,359
are to be is a big part of what i want

1778
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:25,040
the players

1779
00:59:23,359 --> 00:59:26,559
at least the play experience in my game

1780
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:27,920
like you the players may not like it

1781
00:59:26,559 --> 00:59:29,119
that may not be the kind of game they're

1782
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,799
looking for but that's the kind of game

1783
00:59:29,119 --> 00:59:33,680
they're going to get because it's

1784
00:59:30,799 --> 00:59:35,359
what i enjoy um that's it i guess going

1785
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,200
back to gm agency

1786
00:59:35,359 --> 00:59:39,280
there's this idea that the gm needs to

1787
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,079
be anything the players want them to be

1788
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,160
no

1789
00:59:40,079 --> 00:59:43,920
no they don't no that's not that's not

1790
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,680
how it works the game master sure

1791
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,200
there's a lot of flexibility i can do

1792
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,760
lots of different things but i'm not a

1793
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,680
blank slate i i have

1794
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,760
tastes and i have things i enjoy things

1795
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:55,760
i don't enjoy and all of those are going

1796
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:58,160
to come into the game too and i have

1797
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,680
every right to my taste and style and

1798
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,760
finding a player a set of players that

1799
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:04,799
enjoy that so this idea that the game

1800
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:06,240
master needs to be sort of a tabula rasa

1801
01:00:04,799 --> 01:00:08,079
waiting for all the players to sort of

1802
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,559
come along with their expectations and

1803
01:00:08,079 --> 01:00:12,559
fills the gm up who is an empty who

1804
01:00:10,559 --> 01:00:14,240
empty vessel yeah i think that's that's

1805
01:00:12,559 --> 01:00:16,880
just so misaligned i mean don't even

1806
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:19,040
know what to to say that it's okay for

1807
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,520
the dm to have things they enjoy it's

1808
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,880
okay for them to make the game somewhat

1809
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,559
a part of that

1810
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:27,280
hopefully they enjoy trading that with

1811
01:00:24,559 --> 01:00:28,720
players right but but but we have to

1812
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,240
have

1813
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,240
a bunch of opinionated people coming

1814
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,760
together to form some common narrative

1815
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,920
right so there's got to be enough

1816
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:38,720
surface area between those expectations

1817
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:42,079
to make it worthwhile

1818
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:43,359
yeah absolutely it's again it's it's so

1819
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:45,200
tricky and every game is different but

1820
01:00:43,359 --> 01:00:46,240
that's what that's why we're here today

1821
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,160
and that's what we're talking about all

1822
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,960
these interesting little bits and bobs

1823
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,640
um

1824
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,400
did you have anything you

1825
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,680
wanted to talk about specifically about

1826
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:55,599
agency that we might not have covered

1827
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,119
yet we i don't think we can talk enough

1828
01:00:55,599 --> 01:01:00,079
about this topic i don't think we can

1829
01:00:57,119 --> 01:01:01,520
talk enough about um uh but the one

1830
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:02,960
thing i think we

1831
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:05,599
we probably need to talk about is the

1832
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:07,040
role that trust plays in games at all

1833
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:09,599
right and um

1834
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:11,839
that people are their level of comfort

1835
01:01:09,599 --> 01:01:13,839
is often proportionally related to their

1836
01:01:11,839 --> 01:01:15,680
their level of trust right so they're

1837
01:01:13,839 --> 01:01:18,000
higher the level of trust the higher the

1838
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,839
the lower age agency they might need so

1839
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,839
maybe it's inversely but but the more

1840
01:01:19,839 --> 01:01:23,599
comfortable they are yes with

1841
01:01:21,839 --> 01:01:25,040
surrendering because they they

1842
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:27,520
understand sort of the boundaries that

1843
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:29,760
we're working with they understand um

1844
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:33,040
it's like when people often are

1845
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:34,480
activated and vigilant for inappropriate

1846
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:38,079
conduct in games you hear that a lot

1847
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:39,680
about on online talk and once things go

1848
01:01:38,079 --> 01:01:41,760
there it's very of course it's very

1849
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,680
difficult but that's not generally a

1850
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:44,480
factor in my games like i don't think

1851
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:45,839
i've

1852
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,599
you know a lot of things that people

1853
01:01:45,839 --> 01:01:48,880
would tag is inappropriate not really

1854
01:01:47,599 --> 01:01:50,960
something that happens in my game that's

1855
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:53,200
just not my game right so playing

1856
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:55,280
someone come in new players are often

1857
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,720
vigilant with each other and reluctant

1858
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,160
to sacrifice a little agency around

1859
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,039
these areas because they're vigilant

1860
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,960
right they're

1861
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:02,880
okay let me let me see where we're

1862
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,480
talking about before i go down that road

1863
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,400
and that's actually good that's healthy

1864
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,160
that's good but

1865
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:10,240
um once players get into it they like oh

1866
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:12,000
they uh scott's not gonna you know do

1867
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,880
anything weird or creepy yeah i'm cool

1868
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,480
i'm cool

1869
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,240
so they that that level of trust are

1870
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:19,119
willing to give up more agents so so

1871
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:20,720
agency isn't one thing right it isn't it

1872
01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:23,039
isn't a static

1873
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:25,280
value that people enter into a game with

1874
01:02:23,039 --> 01:02:27,920
it it fluctuates over time depending on

1875
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:30,319
the value of this issue to the player or

1876
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:32,079
the gm it fluctuates over time based on

1877
01:02:30,319 --> 01:02:34,960
the comfort level of the players with

1878
01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:37,599
each other and with the gm and trust is

1879
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:39,839
probably agency is one item but trust is

1880
01:02:37,599 --> 01:02:42,000
probably the common

1881
01:02:39,839 --> 01:02:43,599
fuel for all elements of a game how

1882
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:45,039
comfortable are you role playing how

1883
01:02:43,599 --> 01:02:46,559
comfortable are you with player choices

1884
01:02:45,039 --> 01:02:48,480
how comfortable are you with disagreeing

1885
01:02:46,559 --> 01:02:50,480
with another player how comfortable are

1886
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,079
you with giving up some agency to

1887
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,480
someone else to let them shine for a

1888
01:02:52,079 --> 01:02:56,799
little while all of that is defense that

1889
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:58,720
trust is sort of the foundation to do

1890
01:02:56,799 --> 01:03:01,119
that on so if you want to

1891
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:04,480
manage you can't manage agent direct

1892
01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:06,880
agency directly manage trust an agency

1893
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:09,760
will follow as a sort of a a follow-on

1894
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:11,520
property of establishing trust mm-hmm

1895
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:13,440
yeah exactly yeah the the only thing i'd

1896
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:15,520
add to that is that i've said before

1897
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:18,240
i've tell my players like trump like you

1898
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,920
have to trust me i'm not gonna ruin your

1899
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:21,680
game i'm not that's i wouldn't be

1900
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,760
playing if i'm here to ruin your game so

1901
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:25,280
like if if i need to have your character

1902
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,799
do something like just trust me that in

1903
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,079
the long run it'll be worth it i'm not

1904
01:03:26,799 --> 01:03:29,599
here to kick like i'm not just gonna be

1905
01:03:28,079 --> 01:03:31,280
up a rock's fault on your character and

1906
01:03:29,599 --> 01:03:33,280
you're dead because that's yeah that

1907
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,440
sucks so but you're trying to build that

1908
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,520
trust because then it just brings the

1909
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,440
level of the game up to you know

1910
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,400
everyone's enjoyment yeah the one and

1911
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:43,760
one last the one trust is tell me what

1912
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,839
you want something don't leave me to

1913
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,760
guess what you want so that trust piece

1914
01:03:45,839 --> 01:03:50,400
is a lot of times i'll get feedback like

1915
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:52,559
well my character's feeling x-way i

1916
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:54,480
think i tweeted about this recently um

1917
01:03:52,559 --> 01:03:56,480
what i need out of that i'm glad to know

1918
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:58,240
how they feel but what i need out of

1919
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:00,160
that is what do they want to happen

1920
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,440
because of that so i had a character a

1921
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,319
player tell me their character was

1922
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,559
feeling

1923
01:04:02,319 --> 01:04:06,240
unsure and unsure of themselves because

1924
01:04:04,559 --> 01:04:08,319
a bad thing happened to the party once

1925
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:10,240
so they're insecure

1926
01:04:08,319 --> 01:04:11,839
and i've tried to put in a couple events

1927
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,440
that gave them the opportunity to shine

1928
01:04:11,839 --> 01:04:15,440
but they didn't bite at it and i've

1929
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,039
asked them what would it look like if

1930
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:19,440
not this what else

1931
01:04:17,039 --> 01:04:21,839
and so this is about like um how can i

1932
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:23,920
use my agency as a game master to let

1933
01:04:21,839 --> 01:04:26,480
you use your agency in a way that

1934
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:28,799
advances your character so i sometimes

1935
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:31,039
i'm not trying to be obscure i just i

1936
01:04:28,799 --> 01:04:32,880
don't know what you mean no yeah yeah

1937
01:04:31,039 --> 01:04:34,799
it's that like i said before tell me

1938
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:36,559
what you're trying to get at and let me

1939
01:04:34,799 --> 01:04:39,200
enable it for you and then you have this

1940
01:04:36,559 --> 01:04:41,599
positive feedback loop and everybody's

1941
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:43,039
having fun yeah and give me enough

1942
01:04:41,599 --> 01:04:45,119
distance that i can act like it's my

1943
01:04:43,039 --> 01:04:46,640
idea give me enough dishes that i can i

1944
01:04:45,119 --> 01:04:49,440
can pretend that it was my idea in the

1945
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,640
first place yep yeah sounds so easy when

1946
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,520
everyone's do it there's a piece of cake

1947
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:52,960
here

1948
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,400
yeah

1949
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,799
cool so

1950
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,000
yeah that was uh super fantastic

1951
01:04:56,799 --> 01:04:59,680
talk and

1952
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:02,160
i again like you we could talk about

1953
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:04,720
this all day and still never be anywhere

1954
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:05,440
near some finished product um

1955
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:08,079
so

1956
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:09,920
thank you for your time today scott is

1957
01:05:08,079 --> 01:05:11,440
uh is there anything you want to plug

1958
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:12,880
yeah thank you very much it was really a

1959
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,520
pleasure to be here so thank you very

1960
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:17,680
much for for talking to me um yeah just

1961
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,920
a few things i'm on twitter at optional

1962
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,680
rule uh no spaces just look me up an

1963
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:23,440
optional rule follow me there i carry a

1964
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,280
lot of conversation on there i have a

1965
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,559
website where i blog about all kinds of

1966
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,559
things um

1967
01:05:26,559 --> 01:05:30,319
gaming related mostly d i put up some

1968
01:05:28,559 --> 01:05:32,079
mounted combat rules recently i think

1969
01:05:30,319 --> 01:05:33,760
i'm going to post something on surprise

1970
01:05:32,079 --> 01:05:34,960
this week but i've got a blog extending

1971
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,960
back for some time it's called

1972
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:39,359
optionalrule.com

1973
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:42,720
again no spaces no no funny lettering or

1974
01:05:39,359 --> 01:05:45,359
anything i uh stream on twitch every

1975
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,559
saturday at noon eastern time here in

1976
01:05:45,359 --> 01:05:49,119
the u.s

1977
01:05:46,559 --> 01:05:51,839
and it's just on i talk about just

1978
01:05:49,119 --> 01:05:54,079
theory crafting d d i'm usually around

1979
01:05:51,839 --> 01:05:56,400
what's happened in my campaign the week

1980
01:05:54,079 --> 01:05:58,319
before as examples and what i'm planning

1981
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,559
to do in the week coming up and i'm

1982
01:05:58,319 --> 01:06:01,920
ideating through that and my players

1983
01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:03,839
will eventually watch that one day and

1984
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,880
realize how much i was making up as i

1985
01:06:03,839 --> 01:06:06,720
went along

1986
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:09,200
um but yeah so i encourage you give me a

1987
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:11,599
check out there twitch instagram twitter

1988
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:13,039
and optionalrule.com give me a follow

1989
01:06:11,599 --> 01:06:14,400
and drop me a note if you like what i'm

1990
01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:15,839
putting out i'd love to hear your

1991
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,440
thoughts on it

1992
01:06:15,839 --> 01:06:18,880
and i gotta say from a personal point of

1993
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,119
view scott is always engaging and

1994
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:23,200
willing to engage case in point the hour

1995
01:06:21,119 --> 01:06:24,960
podcast you just listened to so i would

1996
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:26,559
very much encourage uh checking this

1997
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,119
stuff out all the links will be in the

1998
01:06:26,559 --> 01:06:31,280
description uh otherwise thank you again

1999
01:06:29,119 --> 01:06:34,000
for joining and thank you everyone at

2000
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:35,839
home for listening as usual please reach

2001
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:39,770
out to myself on all my socials

2002
01:06:35,839 --> 01:06:44,960
otherwise thank you and good night

2003
01:06:39,770 --> 01:06:44,960
[Music]