Horror

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welcome thinkers to season three episode

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12. today's topic is

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horror

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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and today i'm joined by charlie from the

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negative modifier podcast thank you ever

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so much for joining us today charlie can

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you tell us a little bit about yourself

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hey there happy to be here uh my name is

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charlie i'm the gm handler

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storyteller whatever game we've gotten

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to when this goes up arbitrary

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game master term uh for the negative

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modifier podcast a podcast that despite

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my best efforts

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keeps drifting into horror i've been

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yeah that's kind of the big thing

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involved in the tabletop rpg space i run

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that show and kind of similar to i'm

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sure what your setup is it's editor and

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a variety of other stuff that goes along

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with that but i've been playing tabletop

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rpgs on and off for

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i did the math relatively recently like

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i think

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i hate when people do this but the

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useful kind of descriptor of things uh

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give or take 15 years

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on and off i i like the joke actually

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breaking my shoulder got me back into

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the hobby because

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video games were actually physically

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painful to play because of the movement

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involved i could feel it echoing up the

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bones in my arm which

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is a whole thing i would never wish on

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anyone

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okay that sucks i'm sorry to hear yeah

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but also glad that you it got you back

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into tt rpgs so yes

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blame starfinder for all of this

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okay uh so amazing so thank you so much

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for joining us today and indeed today's

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topic is horror so what does that mean

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to you in the dnd and wider ttrpg

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framework so i think it's a complicated

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topic i think a lot of people interpret

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horror in very specific ways obviously

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you have the big kind of call of cthulhu

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game out there it's the

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it and i guess to a lesser extent but

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probably more so i'm giving you credit

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for you got the world of darkness games

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they're your two kind of

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horror tentpole games which as a result

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means everyone thinks horror and kind of

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rp tabletop rpgs is either personal

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horror a la

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world of darkness or

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cosmic eldritch horror courtesy of call

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of cthulhu and

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both are correct um i think that kind

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there's a fun spot where the two meet in

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the middle where it becomes

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real horror i guess in my perspective

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which is why i play lots of delta green

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which is a game that

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lets you take the personal horror of the

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kind of more evolving

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very story-driven character-focused

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reacting to these horrible things

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happening to them aspects and smash it

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up against the eldritch cosmic horror of

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the unknowable and kind of that

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sense of fear i the advice i actually

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give lots of people are trying to

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understand how to run a horror game is

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go watch the show chernobyl because that

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show does a fantastic job of turning

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radiation which is both a abstract but

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very real

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monster into a

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unsettling invisible presence and kind

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of using that same idea we're just like

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you have the mundane you have scenes of

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people being like yeah they're gonna

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walk across this room why is that

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terrifying well we put this the

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radiation music in the background and

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you know the room is highly radiated and

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that's the terrifying spot and it's the

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i think a lot of people kind of go hard

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in the paint where it's like okay i need

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to have as many terrifying images as

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possible and i think they kind of don't

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let it breathe in the correct way but

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yeah

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horror is that kind of interesting spot

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for me where you can have an adventure

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you can do heroic things but

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you feel uncomfortable doing and i think

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that's kind of one of the more important

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things people

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don't get about the genre when it comes

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to table up top rpgs there's lots of

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debate about whether you can even run a

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horror game and stuff like d d because

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it's so

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action adventure kind of associates like

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no you're powerful that's fine

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what you're up against maybe shouldn't

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be equally powerful but it should be

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unsettling so

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it's been a long kind of roundabout way

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of saying that i think a lot of people

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get hung up on

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trying to run texas chainsaw massacre in

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a game where you can literally throw

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lightning bolts that doesn't work

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there's kind of ways you can get around

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that though like there there's there are

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aspects of horror i think that belong in

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every tabletop rpg setting and game like

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if your players are kind of just

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joyfully entering a cavern that's not

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something called like the doom beast in

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it

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i'm all for having fun kind of jokey

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games but also the doom beast should be

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scary like it should have at least some

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grandiose aspect with your players are

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going ha this thing might kill us

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actually

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yeah horror is is it's a tricky thing to

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do just from like a literary perspective

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uh you know to to do well so i can only

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imagine you know translating that across

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to people who aren't literary trained or

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aren't horror creators

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and they're trying to run a campaign

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that's horror focuses is

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absolutely obviously

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needs a bit of a more focused touch i

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should say rather than just your generic

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fantasy swords and sorcery because

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everybody's a lot more familiar with

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that and it's a i don't know if i'm

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gonna get you know like

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you know hung for this but i would say

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maybe the the stories may be slightly

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simpler slightly easier to tell in like

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quote-unquote generic fantasy versus say

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you know a niche

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horror subgenre and that's that's

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a brilliant segue down though um because

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in in some research for this i was

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googling different types of horrors i'm

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you know personally familiar with like

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body horror and like gore and you know

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like that of the fly

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and then like psychological and

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thrillers and then

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cosmic or lovecraftian and whatnot and

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so i googled that i feel like there's

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quite a few more than that

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and the list that came back i was like

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oh there's wow okay there's like 20 and

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ones i've never heard of before and

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but i have definitely experienced and

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that immediately hit me as like

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yep okay i can see this being

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a very tricky subject that are very

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awkward in a way

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to play effectively well i think it's

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you're touching kind of interesting

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aspect of the kind of horror genre of

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things is that people get very caught up

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in it being one type of thing where i

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think having a literary standpoint

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people get very kind of bog okay i'm

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telling an epic journey i'm telling

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a hero quest i'm telling something very

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specific with horror it's here's your

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tools or crap here's your like build set

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put them together however you want like

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your body horror pairs well with your

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cosmic core that pairs well with kind of

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your atmospheric horror that then pairs

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well with some thriller aspects of it

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it's kind of a

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becomes a topic of pacing and when you

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reveal these things and kind of lesses

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more and an example i guess i'll use is

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one of those things where it's like you

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can fill a room with

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horrible viscera and mutilated corpses

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to your eyes turn blue type of thing

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like it's you can go way too far with

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that or if you kind of really dig down

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okay we're in a room and there's a table

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with a candle on it

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that's it that's all that's a note in

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the room and kind of and then you start

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playing with okay like you're walking

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around this table it's like what would

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we notice nothing at first maybe give me

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some checks at that point eventually

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have a go none of you have shadows by

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the way

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privates i think it's if you my style

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very much close to our podcast has me

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just kind of slowly sliding in little

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moments where it's like here's this very

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too many i have unsettling or mundane

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situations like this is weird but not

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inherently a bad one and then just like

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okay here's the aspect that

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makes this a situation type of thing

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it's kind of slide it in under

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everyone's nose where it's like yeah by

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the way you have no shadows and um

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you're not alone

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what's with us shadows not our shadows

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no

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yeah that

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as soon as you said that like you guys

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don't have shadows i was like oh yeah i

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would love to be role-playing in that

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you know having a character and thinking

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about how they would respond to that is

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a very

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interesting

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setup

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and i'm grinning here cause i'm like oh

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i wanna i wanna play in a game that's

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like that and

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we've had a similar i'm lucky in the

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uh the dm for one of my games we had a

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very similar you know you've found

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you're in an abandoned house uh you know

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in a residential area but you find like

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a secret door that you know descends

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into the basement and there's

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it was more like a cult

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themed and there was no light and it was

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it was more atmospheric there's nothing

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overtly like you don't you know nothing

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overtly

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missing or out of place or uncanny but

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it was still very much like

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my guy is uncomfortable in this room

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and i'm uncomfortable feeling that he's

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uncomfortable in this room and we should

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get out as soon as possible and that is

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i'd like

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i would say i would say

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i'm willing to die on this hill and say

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trickier to achieve from it from a game

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master's perspective than it is to say

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here's this foul dragon and you must

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slay him to to get the horde of gold and

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that's it yeah i'm not gonna say it's

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like you have to be more imaginative but

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i think you have to kind of

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you have to have a certain relationship

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with your players i guess like it's one

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of those ones where i can make up a

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traditionally uncomfortable or kind of

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horrifying scene for any random group i

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get into but we do on the podcast is

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much more specialized i know my players

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pretty well we kind of have uh

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we have unwritten trust like okay here's

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stuff i won't touch ever because it's

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like too far for this game we're playing

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00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,839
for a podcast but like

279
00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:24,959
anything up to that point is fair game

280
00:09:23,839 --> 00:09:26,240
and

281
00:09:24,959 --> 00:09:27,519
i think it's one of those ones where i

282
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,880
think

283
00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:30,399
it's not be trying to launch entity you

284
00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,560
should play games other than d and d but

285
00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:34,880
i think it's a game it's a

286
00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:36,560
horror is a concept in tabletop rpgs you

287
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,360
have to play

288
00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:40,959
non-tabletop rpgs that are adventure it

289
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,560
you have to build from other stuff like

290
00:09:40,959 --> 00:09:44,080
there are other tabletop rpgs then the

291
00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:45,839
kind of the pathfinders the dungeons and

292
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,360
dragons even some other stuff i like a

293
00:09:45,839 --> 00:09:48,800
lot that

294
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,320
you can add aspects there but you're

295
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,560
never going to do a good story like star

296
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,080
finder a game that despite its kind of

297
00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:56,480
pluses and minuses

298
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,320
you can run some fantastic horror stuff

299
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,920
in that because it's got the backdrop of

300
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,320
space

301
00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:03,680
and that's inherently unsettling but

302
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,839
i would never make it the kind of main

303
00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:08,160
focus i would add in kind of like alien

304
00:10:05,839 --> 00:10:09,600
or aliens the movie type of

305
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,000
aspects to it's like yeah you're on this

306
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,120
ghost ship and it's full of weird sounds

307
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,839
but you can you got you're kind of

308
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:14,880
you're gonna fight the monster

309
00:10:13,839 --> 00:10:16,240
eventually and they're gonna be

310
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,399
victorious because that's what pushed

311
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,160
the story along so i guess the campaign

312
00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:21,600
i've run in that was that

313
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,360
there was a bunch of starfinder people

314
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,040
investigating an issue started off as a

315
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,959
mining dispute that then turned into

316
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,839
missing minors and then kind of led them

317
00:10:26,959 --> 00:10:30,079
to

318
00:10:27,839 --> 00:10:32,240
a kind of chain of

319
00:10:30,079 --> 00:10:35,120
biological weapon research stations then

320
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,959
led them back to an infiltration ring in

321
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,959
the star finder society type of stuff

322
00:10:36,959 --> 00:10:40,320
where like you had this kind of fun

323
00:10:38,959 --> 00:10:41,760
horror thing in the center where it's

324
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,839
like yeah you're on this

325
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,560
essentially derelict

326
00:10:43,839 --> 00:10:48,160
rogue genetic compound

327
00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:50,000
science facility that's full of a bunch

328
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,399
of lab projects that have gone haywire

329
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,240
and hey you come to a room full of

330
00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,399
remember the last little arc we just did

331
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,160
yeah it's full of the boss from that

332
00:10:56,399 --> 00:11:00,480
drawing tubes you can flush all you have

333
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,760
to fight all of them but

334
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,000
okay i think i said this right there's a

335
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,279
pacing to it that yeah that's the part

336
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,640
you have to learn i guess we're kind of

337
00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:08,079
you have to bring back elements you have

338
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,360
to kind of

339
00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:10,880
you have to tell a story that's kind of

340
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,240
more like the trappings on top of the

341
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,399
story like okay here's what the horror

342
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,399
aspect is you're still telling

343
00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:18,000
a story that has to have a traditional

344
00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:19,839
kind of arc to it you just have to be

345
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,680
getting in the middle and end yeah

346
00:11:19,839 --> 00:11:23,600
because it's like in with some games the

347
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:25,600
ending is and then the players die

348
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,120
because they met cthulhu and that kills

349
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:30,560
you and

350
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,560
that doesn't work for every group

351
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:36,320
yeah so here's a train of thought that

352
00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:37,920
i've just had and follow me as i jump

353
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,800
take you through the steps of my brain

354
00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,399
um

355
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,720
you're saying they're like

356
00:11:40,399 --> 00:11:44,160
the types of horror and the trappings

357
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,600
and how many and how frequently in the

358
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,959
pace and stuff you would

359
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,040
that's obviously the kind of things you

360
00:11:46,959 --> 00:11:50,480
discuss with your players and

361
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,399
and i think

362
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,680
it's of equal importance to a number of

363
00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:55,839
other things that you would cover in a

364
00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:57,200
session zero but you know i think a

365
00:11:55,839 --> 00:11:59,440
heads up to your players if there's

366
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,600
there might be some spooky bits here or

367
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,240
you know you know in which case you know

368
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,240
how much is too much and what's off the

369
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,720
off the record or not loud and stuff

370
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,040
like that and it got me thinking of um

371
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,560
a video game new dlc came out for a

372
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,839
video game that i love called outer

373
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:17,839
wilds

374
00:12:13,839 --> 00:12:19,360
and some dlc came out recently and it's

375
00:12:17,839 --> 00:12:21,120
very much

376
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,399
this atmospheric

377
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,440
loneliness

378
00:12:22,399 --> 00:12:25,519
horror

379
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,839
spooky elements to it and there's a

380
00:12:25,519 --> 00:12:29,360
couple of more active elements to it so

381
00:12:27,839 --> 00:12:31,279
much so that when you when you start the

382
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,720
game there's no spoilers it's the first

383
00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:34,959
thing you see when you actually start

384
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:38,160
the dlc it says do you want to turn on a

385
00:12:34,959 --> 00:12:39,200
mode which is called reduced frights and

386
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,079
it's literally just that like do you

387
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,360
want to turn them it doesn't tell you

388
00:12:40,079 --> 00:12:42,639
anymore don't tell you what that means

389
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,040
doesn't tell you what's going to change

390
00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:47,200
because of it it just says are you a bit

391
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,040
of a scaredy cat i'm that's not there

392
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,720
that's my wordings not theirs

393
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,920
they were a lot better but are you more

394
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,320
susceptible to that kind of stuff do you

395
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,920
want to turn on a reduced frights mode

396
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,519
and that just really made me think

397
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,519
because

398
00:12:57,519 --> 00:13:01,040
i i have a friend a close friend and we

399
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:03,680
played through both the main game and

400
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,120
the dlc together and he was ah man i

401
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:07,040
couldn't i just couldn't

402
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,959
i hated that part cause it was i was so

403
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,000
scared and to me i was like oh no that

404
00:13:08,959 --> 00:13:11,440
was

405
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,120
oh that was fine i wasn't too scared

406
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,959
that was fine and that really that's

407
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,639
such a huge you know the difference

408
00:13:14,959 --> 00:13:19,040
between what people find

409
00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:20,639
unnerving and scary so much so that you

410
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,399
know there's a mode in in some games to

411
00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,000
be like i don't want this to be as scary

412
00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:26,000
because i won't enjoy it as much whereas

413
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,600
to me i was like i've i couldn't even

414
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,360
point out the bits to you that would

415
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,200
need to be toned down

416
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,399
and this isn't me being like oh i'm

417
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,360
never scared by anything because i

418
00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:38,959
absolutely am but even on this small

419
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:41,120
scale you need to have that be like

420
00:13:38,959 --> 00:13:42,320
oh okay it'll be fine i'm only using a

421
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,480
little bit of

422
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,199
body horror here or a little bit of

423
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,199
spooky occult nonsense over there but

424
00:13:47,199 --> 00:13:51,760
someone in your party would be like oh

425
00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:54,079
no that's way too much for me um i have

426
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,839
i'm really unsettled by this so i think

427
00:13:54,079 --> 00:13:58,240
you're absolutely right in that

428
00:13:55,839 --> 00:13:59,199
you know as early in the cycle as you

429
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,360
can

430
00:13:59,199 --> 00:14:02,959
have that discussion

431
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,079
well i think i benefit from kind of a

432
00:14:02,959 --> 00:14:07,279
weird mindset on this one where

433
00:14:06,079 --> 00:14:09,040
i have a love-hate relationship with

434
00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:11,040
horror movies i think a lot of kind of

435
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,519
modern horror movies are

436
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:16,079
garbage because they rely on jump scares

437
00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:17,120
too much and i hate jump scares like i

438
00:14:16,079 --> 00:14:18,720
i've talked about this in a couple other

439
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,079
podcasts i'll joke about it every once

440
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,519
in a while like

441
00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:23,360
my now wife at one point the first time

442
00:14:21,519 --> 00:14:25,519
she went back to meet my parents

443
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,079
informed me i lived in the belair witch

444
00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:30,240
project and she was right in hindsight

445
00:14:28,079 --> 00:14:32,000
like the town i grew up and when it got

446
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:34,079
dark out it looks like a scene from the

447
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,440
blair witch project and had never

448
00:14:34,079 --> 00:14:37,440
clicked for me on that one but it's one

449
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,800
of those ones where i think

450
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,800
this is gonna sound weird for a second

451
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,480
so follow me on this one i grew up in a

452
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,320
situation where kind of looking back

453
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,600
it's the oh yeah i know like i've choked

454
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,880
a couple times that like the way me and

455
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,360
my friends growing up would play in the

456
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,880
woods like just statistically one of us

457
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,720
should be dead by now i'm not saying it

458
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,120
should be but like the number of times

459
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,680
we got lost for like eight hours and

460
00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,160
wandered way too deep into the woods but

461
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,000
still somehow came back based on not

462
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,279
horror movie logic but just statistics

463
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:06,079
it's like yeah

464
00:15:03,279 --> 00:15:07,920
someone should still be out there

465
00:15:06,079 --> 00:15:09,680
and growing up in that it kind of

466
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,519
teaches you this whole idea and if you

467
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,680
live in a place lucky enough you can go

468
00:15:11,519 --> 00:15:15,440
deep into the woods or kind of way out

469
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,120
into nature where kind of

470
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,040
humanity and culture fades into the

471
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,600
background you're just kind of out there

472
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,560
you learn subconsciously what i think

473
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,920
kind of

474
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,680
i love cosmic core i love the

475
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,279
atmospheric aspect of i love kind of the

476
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,160
fact that like there's nothing you can

477
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:31,199
do it's not you versus something it's

478
00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,720
something

479
00:15:31,199 --> 00:15:36,240
so much larger than you that you can

480
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,079
only grasp its comprehension and

481
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,160
i think kind of being lost deep in

482
00:15:38,079 --> 00:15:41,279
nature is the closest humans can get in

483
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,560
some ways

484
00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:43,759
easily to that words like there's no

485
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,199
jump scare it's like yeah they'll hear

486
00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:46,959
the occasional snap of something maybe

487
00:15:45,199 --> 00:15:49,120
you'll see something weird but it's

488
00:15:46,959 --> 00:15:50,720
about the feeling it's about kind of how

489
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,720
alone you are out there it's the fact

490
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,519
that like something could happen

491
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,920
and

492
00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:57,279
maybe no one would know like

493
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,800
how much stuff has happened weird out

494
00:15:57,279 --> 00:16:00,720
there like you come across like the

495
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,800
remains of an old trailer or something

496
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,720
or kind of an old campsite how long was

497
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,079
this here is someone's lyric these

498
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,320
questions you're never gonna get answers

499
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:09,600
to that are part of what make that

500
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,440
uncomfortable and then you have jump

501
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,360
scares where it's like yes

502
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,480
spring something out of a wall at your

503
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,279
players and yeah it's gonna be

504
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,040
terrifying because surprise

505
00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:20,480
but i try and avoid that as much as i

506
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,000
can or kind of what it is that it's like

507
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,519
no no we built up to this like there's

508
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,600
been plenty of hints

509
00:16:23,519 --> 00:16:27,440
there's something here and the players

510
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,800
are looking for techno

511
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,759
yes there's something bad in the room

512
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,759
with you

513
00:16:29,759 --> 00:16:34,240
i've been very upfront about this fact

514
00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:38,399
you haven't found it yet why haven't we

515
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:41,360
found it yes why haven't you found it

516
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:43,279
i i agree on the jump scares i hate them

517
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,079
on two parts one because they scare me

518
00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:46,800
um

519
00:16:44,079 --> 00:16:48,959
full disclosure uh secondly because i do

520
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,480
think they can be cheap and i think as

521
00:16:48,959 --> 00:16:53,120
you said a lot of modern horror films

522
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:55,199
use them in a cheap way yeah which is i

523
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,040
from an artistic point of view i i don't

524
00:16:55,199 --> 00:16:58,800
agree with that i'd god i couldn't sound

525
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,920
more like a

526
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,759
an elitist if i tried but uh i do try

527
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,760
put the effort in at least to my own

528
00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:07,839
campaigns i'm sure some some of my

529
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:10,959
players would attest to that but no i i

530
00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:12,959
absolutely agree and it's

531
00:17:10,959 --> 00:17:14,959
again like one of those things is

532
00:17:12,959 --> 00:17:16,400
that that must be i i've not had this

533
00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:17,760
discussion you know hands up i haven't

534
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,799
had a

535
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,559
super

536
00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:21,839
new age session zero with my current

537
00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:23,760
game a because it's been going on for

538
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,839
like two and a half years and b because

539
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,240
i knew the guys quite well going into it

540
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:29,200
so there was less of a need for that but

541
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,880
i

542
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,240
is that not how do you have that

543
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,919
discussion and be like there's going to

544
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,039
be a jump scare

545
00:17:33,919 --> 00:17:39,440
in maybe 20 sessions time is that

546
00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:40,559
okay i like who who's planned that far

547
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,720
ahead

548
00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:44,799
maybe i'll maybe i'll i just fly by the

549
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,559
seat of my pants too much or maybe i'm

550
00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:48,640
my scale is way off but how how does

551
00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:50,799
that conversation come about how does

552
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,480
that conversation happen when you talk

553
00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:54,960
to someone that does plan that insanely

554
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,640
far in the advance with some things like

555
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,240
i i guess like the way we do campaigns

556
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,760
on negative modifiers where i like to do

557
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,120
campaigns is that i like reoccurring

558
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,559
elements so

559
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,240
i will have

560
00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:05,520
maybe not the entire thing written but a

561
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,679
pretty

562
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,039
big moment to big moment outline figured

563
00:18:07,679 --> 00:18:11,120
out before we even start playing where

564
00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:12,880
it's like okay yeah here's when

565
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,000
some stuff will happen and like it's me

566
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,200
being like okay this might need to start

567
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,720
ramping up certain aspects of this and

568
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,080
so i guess kaiju's example of what we

569
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,880
play a lot about negative monitor we

570
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:27,679
play lots of delta green delta green is

571
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:29,760
one of those rare tabletop rpgs where

572
00:18:27,679 --> 00:18:31,440
if you're under 13 you just shouldn't

573
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,160
play delta green honestly if you're

574
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,880
under 18 you probably shouldn't play

575
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,799
delta green in some ways like just it's

576
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,640
by the inherent nature of what that game

577
00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:41,600
is deliberately about it's either

578
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,360
probably

579
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,840
not going to be as interesting or

580
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:47,440
playing a pg version of that game it's

581
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,960
just not going to work like it's that

582
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,240
weird mix of

583
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,760
csi

584
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,520
horror

585
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,440
investigatory corruption like there's

586
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,799
lots of moving parts that

587
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,640
there's no way to talk about a

588
00:18:56,799 --> 00:19:00,640
kid-friendly way i think and yeah you

589
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,320
could definitely do it but

590
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840
i think kind of going into a game in a

591
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,039
setting with the expectation of no no

592
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,960
we're playing a 13 plus a 16 plus a more

593
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,799
rated game for lack for a better phrase

594
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,280
again we're playing a horror game your

595
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:15,120
characters are aware they're in at least

596
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,400
horror-like situations they got to do

597
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:18,400
dumb stuff because it's how horror

598
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,600
movies work that's how horror games work

599
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,640
and

600
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,000
it was kind of like an unwritten

601
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,000
contract i guess at that point i think

602
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,919
like it's this is why there are stuff i

603
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,280
will do definitely to my own groups and

604
00:19:25,919 --> 00:19:29,120
on the podcast and with my personal

605
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,120
players i play with a lot that i would

606
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,160
never do in a pickup game that i'd stick

607
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:34,960
no i could

608
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,640
go listen to i will happily run the

609
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,799
written scenario for delta green last

610
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,480
things last for almost anyone that asks

611
00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:41,840
because hey i think that's a great

612
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,919
scenario freaking people into the game

613
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,080
and b i like delta green a lot i'll

614
00:19:43,919 --> 00:19:47,520
happily introduce people to the game but

615
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,080
the version of that we played on the

616
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,559
podcast is dramatically different than

617
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,960
the version of that i will play in real

618
00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:56,960
life it's like now um

619
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,799
i know none of my players have problems

620
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,720
with heart attacks so i won't like on

621
00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:02,080
the podcast yeah i played up the fact

622
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,320
that one of the characters died of a

623
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,480
very severe heart attack and person's

624
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,440
like yeah the guy died

625
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,600
i've got heart attack it was bad hmm

626
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,840
tragic yeah moving on as quickly as

627
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,760
possible

628
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,280
yeah i need to

629
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,480
see that i i

630
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,320
love

631
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,880
this show and this podcast for these

632
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:26,159
moments of when it makes me go that has

633
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,520
made me think because it's so easy even

634
00:20:26,159 --> 00:20:29,039
like i'm eating my own words because i

635
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,960
said a second ago like oh i know my

636
00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:34,320
players and but i don't know

637
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:37,280
their family histories right and it

638
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:39,360
would be so easy for me to accidentally

639
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,200
bring in something like that and i know

640
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,480
they're all like got the big boy pants

641
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,320
on and they can take some horror

642
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,679
understanding but it'll be so easy for

643
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,640
me to make that misstep because i assume

644
00:20:47,679 --> 00:20:50,320
that they

645
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,720
they didn't and it is i mean here's a

646
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:55,200
really really good similar-ish example

647
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,640
of how easy that mistake is to make um

648
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,039
and literally i've been invited to an

649
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,240
in-person game through for a friend and

650
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:01,760
he was like we're looking for one more

651
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,280
i've got my mates playing you'd be a

652
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,039
great addition do you want to come along

653
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,000
yeah great i love meeting new people i

654
00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:09,200
love dnd perfect and i was uh

655
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,960
i was you know i wanted to make a good

656
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,039
impressions i was there very early

657
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,400
so it was quite awkward because the the

658
00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:15,919
the friend of a friend of who sat in

659
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,600
between us wasn't there so i had to kind

660
00:21:15,919 --> 00:21:19,600
of you know we didn't have that social

661
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,400
lubricant of history

662
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,159
if we will yeah yeah um

663
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,280
and then a bunch of other guys turned up

664
00:21:24,159 --> 00:21:27,520
and on there trying to chat away and i

665
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,440
sort of wanted a wanted a tattoo on his

666
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,640
uh on his bicep of a bicycle and i was

667
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,240
like oh you know

668
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,640
are you into you into bikes are you and

669
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,559
he was ah not really but my my brother

670
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,240
who passed away recently was was and

671
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:40,480
this is kind of you know

672
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,760
a nod to him and i was like oh

673
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,760
[ __ ] what a faux pas

674
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,360
well done first interaction with him and

675
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,640
i've brought up that memory great well

676
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,480
done uh

677
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,559
obviously we were out having a few beers

678
00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,960
last night it's all you know hunky-dory

679
00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:02,320
but it it it always makes me i always

680
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,240
think about that moment and it's a

681
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,640
classic example of like

682
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,840
had i be dming for him and like i could

683
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,280
have brought up something awkward like

684
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,600
that and you and you never know so i

685
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,799
think even even if my ultimately what

686
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,559
i'm getting is even if you sit

687
00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:16,799
arrogantly like i do and say oh i know

688
00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:18,559
my players everything will be fine it

689
00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:20,000
might well not be here

690
00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,919
yeah

691
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,440
no and i think it's it's just kind of an

692
00:22:21,919 --> 00:22:25,039
experience thing at that point it's one

693
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,480
of the few times where

694
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:28,720
the advice i give everyone is like just

695
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,159
play lots of games play as many games as

696
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,720
you can get like

697
00:22:30,159 --> 00:22:34,480
gm and play in just as many groups as

698
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,840
you possibly can get in type of thing

699
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,600
even if it's not a story you necessarily

700
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,600
care that much about you will learn

701
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,280
something from spending time with a

702
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,960
group of people that

703
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080
maybe you don't know super well or maybe

704
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,840
it's a kind of you would never think to

705
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,000
go about that and

706
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,760
like that's the it's the one facet where

707
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,720
i think just kind of time with the hobby

708
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:54,320
does equal some skill it's like no no

709
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,320
just the more you've kind of stumbled

710
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,640
into and dealt with and kind of gotten

711
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,480
your hands on and gotten dirty with

712
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,000
the more kind of cognizant you are of it

713
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,520
the kind of the more

714
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,559
you can work towards a type of thing

715
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,919
like it's

716
00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:07,200
there's also kind of ways of bringing up

717
00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:09,360
certain topics without bringing up

718
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,360
certain topics like there's

719
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:13,200
yeah you kind of learn the tricks of how

720
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,039
to deal with sensitive information and

721
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,240
kind of uncomfortable stuff and

722
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:17,760
important when i think that's where a

723
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,520
lot of people run into problems with

724
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,640
horror as a whole where

725
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,480
it's

726
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,400
i'm not gonna say it's advanced game

727
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,520
mastering but it's not

728
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,200
entry level necessarily but like also

729
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,880
anyone can play call of cthulhu but i'd

730
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,400
also say the call of cthulhu stuff is

731
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,480
not going to kind of

732
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,640
blunder you into especially running the

733
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,400
kind of written stuff with one or two

734
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,919
exceptions you're not going to stumble

735
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,679
into kind of red flag territory for

736
00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:43,760
someone by accident it's pretty

737
00:23:41,679 --> 00:23:46,240
straightforward manversus monster

738
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,000
stories with cosmic elements it's not as

739
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,200
personalized i guess at that point which

740
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,679
is good

741
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,480
yeah yeah i've got that's made me think

742
00:23:51,679 --> 00:23:56,400
i've got an arc coming up that

743
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,080
i won't go into detail for the reasons

744
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,679
i'm about to say but that

745
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,440
i was like this bit will be really

746
00:23:59,679 --> 00:24:02,960
interesting and exciting but now i'm

747
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,640
having second thoughts about you know

748
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,159
i'm probably

749
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,840
gonna drop the questions with my guys

750
00:24:06,159 --> 00:24:10,080
and just say i'm thinking of something

751
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,919
that might deal at one point

752
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,279
with this element

753
00:24:11,919 --> 00:24:15,600
is that okay and that's what i'm gonna

754
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:17,600
say and that's that should be enough to

755
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,960
then give me the green light so yeah

756
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,080
i'm you know

757
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,440
i don't want anyone to get the wrong

758
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,760
impression i'm not talking about like

759
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,679
doing some horrible grotesque

760
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,640
thing it it really is a light touch but

761
00:24:25,679 --> 00:24:27,919
it's

762
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,360
that the whole point of the discussion

763
00:24:27,919 --> 00:24:31,279
we're having is that

764
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:32,640
horror means a lot of different things

765
00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:34,640
to a lot of different people and it is

766
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,080
very easy to

767
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,400
oh let me let me put it in another way

768
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,480
it's very hard sometimes to have that

769
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,799
empathy with

770
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,400
why people find things unsettling or

771
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:46,000
whatnot and even as i said there's in

772
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,120
outer wilds this video game there's a

773
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,679
bit with

774
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,679
uh i don't want to spoil it there's just

775
00:24:49,679 --> 00:24:52,960
a bit where there's some large

776
00:24:51,679 --> 00:24:54,799
creatures that

777
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,919
are not friendly

778
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:57,919
and

779
00:24:55,919 --> 00:24:59,520
yeah my my friend was like oh i hated

780
00:24:57,919 --> 00:25:01,679
that bit couldn't you know i had to look

781
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,440
away i had to you know i'd take a break

782
00:25:01,679 --> 00:25:05,440
and i was just there happy as larry just

783
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,000
you know came at it as a puzzle to to

784
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,960
solve a challenge to to overcome

785
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,840
and even that minor you know small part

786
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,440
of a

787
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,559
small game

788
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,320
had such

789
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:18,799
vastly different things it's it's very

790
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:21,840
easy to underestimate how

791
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:22,880
something can impact somebody yeah no i

792
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,159
if you got if you want to post a

793
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,840
negative modifier you'll realize that

794
00:25:24,159 --> 00:25:28,240
every single one of our episodes starts

795
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,880
off with a content warning

796
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,240
a little bit tailored to the game and

797
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,559
that's because it's one of those ones

798
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,000
where that even this kind of two thought

799
00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:37,760
process maybe i guess there's three

800
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,200
there's the third campus just doesn't

801
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,640
give a rat's ass and kind of it's like

802
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,679
i'm gonna do whatever the hell i want

803
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,960
and

804
00:25:41,679 --> 00:25:44,559
i don't care if you're upset by this

805
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,720
whatever and they're [ __ ] and then

806
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,559
there's my camp where it's like

807
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,240
i think like it's the

808
00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:52,159
telling stories and playing with

809
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,159
concepts that make people uncomfortable

810
00:25:52,159 --> 00:25:56,000
is important to kind of

811
00:25:54,159 --> 00:25:56,720
analyzing that part of being human like

812
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,559
we

813
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320
a negative modifier we pick games that

814
00:25:58,559 --> 00:26:02,400
kind of inherently deal with

815
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,000
uncomfortable topics because

816
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,440
those are the stories i like to run but

817
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,799
also it's like they're just again going

818
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,720
back to now those nuanced ways of

819
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:10,640
talking about it there's you don't have

820
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,080
to be as abrupt or kind of as explicit

821
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,919
about stuff it's like no there's plenty

822
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,200
of implied that

823
00:26:13,919 --> 00:26:18,240
is so much worse than what you could

824
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,320
ever say actually but also because it's

825
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,159
implied people can mentally scale how

826
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,200
comfortable they are to it and there's

827
00:26:22,159 --> 00:26:25,520
the camp that's like i'm not gonna touch

828
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,360
anything controversial ever because

829
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,200
i don't want to and i respect that camp

830
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,799
i think it's yes

831
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,480
we live in a world where the whole have

832
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:34,799
you talked about safety tools at all on

833
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,320
the podcast before or not really uh we

834
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:38,960
as as i mentioned earlier on when i when

835
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,200
i was alluding to like modern session

836
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,039
zero that we've only ever talked about

837
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,039
it in a light touch so i'm more than you

838
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,480
know please yeah and that this is not

839
00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,880
the time or place to go into it because

840
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,720
i'm not the timer i am not the person to

841
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,480
go into great depth about safety tools

842
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,039
there are people far more knowledgeable

843
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,640
in this topic than i am but i think it's

844
00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:58,880
even if you're not playing with safety

845
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,880
tools you should still kind of have the

846
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,400
ideas of safety tools in the back of

847
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,200
your brain like it's one of those ones

848
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,480
where

849
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,480
i've definitely joked several times

850
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,840
where it's like if you can find a way as

851
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,480
if i'm playing in your game to make me

852
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,799
uncomfortable or like actually upset

853
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,080
power to you no one's ever done it and

854
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,760
like i would be interested to take that

855
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,919
ride with you but i suspect if you can

856
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,520
take that ride with me it will make

857
00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:21,760
everyone at the rest of the table

858
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,200
uncomfortable because i am a

859
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,880
person that's kind of is willing to go

860
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,279
to those dark places that enjoys like

861
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,880
okay yeah no this is terrible but like

862
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:30,480
what were you trying to say with this

863
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,320
terribleness like

864
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,760
what about being human or kind of about

865
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,520
kind of the nature of your story ties

866
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,120
back it's oh it's a cheap thrill that's

867
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,559
shitty

868
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,000
like don't don't bring up messed up

869
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:41,520
stuff just to bring up messed up stuff

870
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,120
like it has to be

871
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,480
narratively and kind of important what

872
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,679
you're doing like anyone can just full

873
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,080
of room of corpses it's like why the

874
00:27:45,679 --> 00:27:49,520
corpse is there it's the corpse room

875
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,560
right

876
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,790
why are the corpses there

877
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,790
[Music]

878
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:03,919
[Music]

879
00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:06,240
so the chapter that i'm doing at the

880
00:28:03,919 --> 00:28:08,080
moment is that has an otherworldly uh i

881
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,960
guess cosmic horror element to it far

882
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,039
realm

883
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,840
you know creatures from

884
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:15,279
far realm space between spaces as being

885
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,760
summoned in and blah blah blah but the

886
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:20,159
reason i set it up i'm quite proud of my

887
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,720
setup so they go to like a high high

888
00:28:20,159 --> 00:28:25,039
like arcano technological magical city

889
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,799
floating up in the sky and so that the

890
00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:28,880
first half is like

891
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:30,240
here's how you know there's brooms that

892
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,760
are just sweeping the streets and

893
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,840
there's like holographic displays to

894
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,600
work out you know a map for the city and

895
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,919
there's it's full of you know it's like

896
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,640
parisian opulence of

897
00:28:37,919 --> 00:28:42,000
you know cafes and yeah bistros and all

898
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,559
this kind of stuff and then some

899
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,399
cataclysmic event happens that tears you

900
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,240
know there's cracks

901
00:28:46,399 --> 00:28:49,840
get torn through the city and purple

902
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,279
light is coming out and there's you know

903
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,279
creatures that are just

904
00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:55,919
tearing this you know

905
00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:58,559
chaos throughout the streets and i

906
00:28:55,919 --> 00:29:00,799
wanted that juxtaposition of like his

907
00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:02,960
when you see it nice and lovely the

908
00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:05,200
players go somewhere when they come back

909
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,080
it's now this horrible you know horrible

910
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,520
nightmare escape of thing and i i wanted

911
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,919
that was like

912
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,760
i saw really really layered on the like

913
00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:15,279
the parisian there's birds singing and

914
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,880
there's mutant there's like music in the

915
00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,720
air and that you know as leaves fall off

916
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,159
the tree they disappear and reappear

917
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,600
back on the tree

918
00:29:20,159 --> 00:29:24,159
and the next time they come back i'm

919
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,799
like there's bodies in the streets and

920
00:29:24,159 --> 00:29:29,200
there's you know winged gargoyle like

921
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:31,279
creatures just picking you know plucking

922
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,600
people off the streets and throwing them

923
00:29:31,279 --> 00:29:35,600
you know 50 foot in the air and

924
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,880
you you hear a dull thud and and that

925
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,880
kind of stuff

926
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,039
to be juxtaposed against where they last

927
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,919
time they saw it to really hammer home

928
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:43,840
that

929
00:29:41,919 --> 00:29:46,640
that difference there so that's my

930
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,080
excuse for my the current kind of yeah i

931
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,000
think that's that's plenty enough i

932
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,159
think it's when you have like how do i

933
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,039
make sure this lich is evil uh

934
00:29:52,159 --> 00:29:56,320
this room is full of victims

935
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,080
okay

936
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,840
yeah you walk in then he's cutting off

937
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,760
somebody's head okay

938
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,760
cool what you doing with that head

939
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,039
yeah yeah yeah i know what you mean that

940
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,240
is so

941
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:10,000
yeah he

942
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,360
again an easy way to to do it but

943
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,640
because it's easy it means that there's

944
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,799
less kind of

945
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,039
impact i suppose like to me what i'm

946
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,720
saying is also like you can totally have

947
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:20,640
that lich have a predilection for

948
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,399
cutting off heads but like you should

949
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,480
have established on multiple points

950
00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:26,159
prior to this like oh the lich came

951
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,399
through how do you know no one has a

952
00:30:26,159 --> 00:30:30,559
head anymore um

953
00:30:28,399 --> 00:30:32,320
yeah that's such that's

954
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:33,520
again again another episode of reason

955
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,919
why i love the podcast is because it

956
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,520
makes me we're like improv here and and

957
00:30:35,919 --> 00:30:39,760
once you've set that precedent that

958
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,799
you've just described the next time the

959
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,720
players encounter someone that's missing

960
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:46,720
ahead for whatever reason

961
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,039
they're immediately going to go

962
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,720
[ __ ] is is that the lich is the lich

963
00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:52,799
here do we need to be

964
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,840
and even if it's something as

965
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:58,399
benign is the wrong word but

966
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,640
a workplace accident is that

967
00:30:58,399 --> 00:31:02,720
you know you know rather than some evil

968
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,960
menace has done it no so it's actually

969
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,880
interesting to bring that up so on

970
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,960
if my once goes up it may still be or

971
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,799
maybe over at this point the time of

972
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,080
recording this the campaign we're

973
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:13,919
involved in right now on negative

974
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,240
modifier is something called hawthorne's

975
00:31:13,919 --> 00:31:17,600
crusade and

976
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,080
this idea what you're talking about kind

977
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,760
of planting this idea that

978
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,519
multiple times comes up correct or not

979
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,440
is something i do constantly in

980
00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:28,399
hawthorne i'm not going to reveal why

981
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,480
hawthorne's crusade is called

982
00:31:28,399 --> 00:31:32,880
hawthorne's crusader kind of

983
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,480
what this thing is but there's a theme

984
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,559
looking back and kind of a concept

985
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,080
looking back that

986
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:39,360
i know it because i'm the one running it

987
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,679
and kind of thing and my players have

988
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,919
kind of started to pick up on it or

989
00:31:41,679 --> 00:31:45,679
they're deep enough that they understand

990
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:47,600
exactly what was going on the entire

991
00:31:45,679 --> 00:31:49,039
time but

992
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,120
the way the campaign is kind of paced

993
00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:52,880
and set up there are

994
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,760
there's a web and they're making a web

995
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,440
and

996
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,559
it's not clear how many of the nodes

997
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,640
they've connected to the web are

998
00:31:56,559 --> 00:32:00,720
actually part of the web or just a

999
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,960
separate web altogether but it doesn't

1000
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,960
matter because they keep establish this

1001
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,640
it's like no no this thing keeps showing

1002
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,480
up every time these things happen so

1003
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,039
it's obviously connected

1004
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,039
is it

1005
00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:13,919
and i'm not telling them is it it's um

1006
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,279
in my brain i'm going like that's

1007
00:32:13,919 --> 00:32:17,120
something that's like oh you picked up

1008
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:18,720
on that wrong but yeah we're gonna go

1009
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,080
with that because

1010
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,760
i get to have players that are actively

1011
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,440
paranoid on certain topics and i'm not

1012
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,039
lying to them it's what their characters

1013
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,720
have decided like i think that's

1014
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:29,679
okay i've go back to a topic we touched

1015
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,559
on this whole idea of kind of

1016
00:32:29,679 --> 00:32:34,080
relationship between player and person

1017
00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:35,600
running the game

1018
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,679
when it comes to certain horror games

1019
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,600
delta green's definitely one of these

1020
00:32:37,679 --> 00:32:41,360
you have to be willing to lie to your

1021
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,640
players a little bit and i don't mean

1022
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,120
like

1023
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,720
lie about dice or like you die now

1024
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,960
because i say that's that don't do that

1025
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,240
that's that's shitty type of thing like

1026
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,919
fudge dice if you want i'm not gonna

1027
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,360
tell you what to do but like

1028
00:32:51,919 --> 00:32:55,039
don't be that guy that like runs an

1029
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,000
impossible game because you want the

1030
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:59,519
monsters to win yeah no i agree yeah

1031
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,960
it's okay to give them false information

1032
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:02,799
though or kind of like if they start

1033
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,960
going down a mental path that's not what

1034
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:06,720
you wrote or not with the actual thing

1035
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,559
it's like yeah no totally that and

1036
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,840
that's like oh we thought this you

1037
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:11,840
thought wrong

1038
00:33:12,399 --> 00:33:15,919
i loved i love i had a an idea when you

1039
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:18,320
were talking about their players and

1040
00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:19,440
their paranoia at certain elements and

1041
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,360
that

1042
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,679
that works because it's like a

1043
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,399
self-sustaining

1044
00:33:23,679 --> 00:33:28,640
fear cycle and and the players are

1045
00:33:26,399 --> 00:33:30,880
generating the emotions themselves it's

1046
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,039
one thing to have the dm say you enter

1047
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,279
into a room and there's spider webs and

1048
00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:36,720
there's no shadows and there's the heads

1049
00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:38,399
have been decapitated and then it's

1050
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,720
another thing entirely for the players

1051
00:33:38,399 --> 00:33:42,960
to step into a room and go

1052
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,720
i i'm scared because of stuff that's

1053
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,880
happened in the past and the unknown of

1054
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,279
the future and i'm already scared at

1055
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,039
just just from the premise and that is a

1056
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:52,240
you know a completely different thing

1057
00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:55,360
and i think once you hit that then

1058
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,640
you're you're really hitting the

1059
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,320
you know you've done you've done the

1060
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,840
work and it's it's it's a beautiful

1061
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,159
thing to watch i think

1062
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:05,600
not people be scared but to have players

1063
00:34:02,159 --> 00:34:07,360
just be so engaged and and aware of

1064
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,000
connotations and

1065
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,960
implications as you said that it's the

1066
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,879
self-sustaining emotion machine

1067
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,200
trademark because that sounds like a

1068
00:34:14,879 --> 00:34:18,800
cool tagline there yeah and i think it's

1069
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,879
like there's a the second arc of

1070
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,280
hawthorne's crusade i'm not sure what

1071
00:34:20,879 --> 00:34:26,800
episode is but early on the players

1072
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,639
figure out jokingly exactly what's going

1073
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,079
on if they say that's an option like oh

1074
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:32,879
it can't possibly that would be stupid

1075
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:33,760
if it was that and i'm like no it's that

1076
00:34:32,879 --> 00:34:35,280
and when we got through it being

1077
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,280
realized like oh [ __ ] we were right all

1078
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,800
along god damn it

1079
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,079
this is so much worse because we were

1080
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,560
right we were like i can't be that

1081
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:44,639
that'd be too ridiculous

1082
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,560
and i'm sitting there like no you're

1083
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:48,079
right not to tell you you're right

1084
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,240
because that's not how this works but

1085
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:51,679
like when we get there like like you

1086
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:53,520
have this in the back of your brain like

1087
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:55,839
they kept going back like it can't

1088
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,240
possibly be that it'd be so obvious if

1089
00:34:55,839 --> 00:35:00,720
it was that it was totally that

1090
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,680
you underestimate my obviousness it was

1091
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,040
one of those things where it's like it

1092
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,800
was

1093
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,040
i was never trying to make it not

1094
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,640
obvious but it's one of those ones where

1095
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,240
because of how delta green is how delta

1096
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,760
queen works it's like it can't be that

1097
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,280
simple it's always

1098
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,240
something more it's like oh i guess it

1099
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,880
was that simple oh god being that simple

1100
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:21,200
is terrible yeah yeah oh god it really

1101
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,880
is very simple you know there it is you

1102
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,599
know sort of green is people like it

1103
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,960
just is that yeah

1104
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:29,200
thank you for bringing that game up

1105
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,200
again because here's a topic that i want

1106
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,200
to go on to and i need a bit i need your

1107
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,960
assistance to start so obviously with

1108
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,320
dnd something i'm most familiar with

1109
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,920
there are

1110
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,599
you know it's this random quote-unquote

1111
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,599
random elements with the dice rolling

1112
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:44,079
and so on and so on now are the other

1113
00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:45,680
ttrpgs you mentioned today are they do

1114
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,680
they share that you know is there always

1115
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,280
this element of rolling a dice or

1116
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,280
flipping a coin or

1117
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,160
you know abilities or powers and stuff

1118
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,760
like that is that and everything you've

1119
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,359
mentioned today is that is that oh yeah

1120
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:58,400
yeah they all involve dice for the most

1121
00:35:55,359 --> 00:36:01,839
part or they have some similar system um

1122
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,839
i will say kind of

1123
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,680
dice rolls in

1124
00:36:05,839 --> 00:36:08,480
adventure driven games kind of your uh

1125
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,800
your

1126
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,119
your star finder your pathfinder your

1127
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,119
dungeons and dragons you're we're going

1128
00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:17,760
on a quest to do the thing to fight the

1129
00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:20,079
monsters type of stuff

1130
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,240
dice rolls are very kind of binary you

1131
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:24,160
pass you fail

1132
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:25,839
you do the thing you don't do the thing

1133
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,839
i'm not saying other games don't do that

1134
00:36:25,839 --> 00:36:29,280
but so like let's use delta green for an

1135
00:36:27,839 --> 00:36:30,560
example so

1136
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,599
most games that people will be familiar

1137
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,839
with are

1138
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:35,040
um d20 based yeah trying to get above a

1139
00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:37,040
certain number

1140
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,480
call of cthulhu delta green a lot of my

1141
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,040
favorite games honestly are based on

1142
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,880
percentile dice systems where you have

1143
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,640
your character is x good at things

1144
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,920
you're trying to roll below that

1145
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,920
percentile dice if your character is 70

1146
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,000
good at fighting people with their fists

1147
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:55,440
they will 70 of the time be successful

1148
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:57,119
at that and where

1149
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,560
i think kind of different like this is

1150
00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:00,720
kind of where the

1151
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,040
adventure versus mystery game kind of

1152
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:05,760
really diverges in a mystery game your

1153
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,040
players have to find the clues they have

1154
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,520
to solve the mystery they have to keep

1155
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,599
going forward so you can't lock

1156
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,960
everything behind

1157
00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:14,320
success and failure you can't get into

1158
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,960
the use that you get used to the idea of

1159
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,920
like cascading failure and

1160
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,040
it's one of those things where kind of

1161
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:24,640
like i know yeah if my players wind up

1162
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,320
in this bar they're going to find x

1163
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,400
they have to for the story to work type

1164
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,720
of thing how they go about that and how

1165
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,079
successful they are in that that's dice

1166
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:34,320
driven

1167
00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:36,560
and kind of and that's where and i think

1168
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,320
apothem sits under a good job of kind of

1169
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,880
highlighting this is that we have some

1170
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,160
moments that like i set them up as like

1171
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,119
yeah this is gonna be like a pivotal

1172
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,640
moment for the characters in the arc and

1173
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:48,800
because of dice rolls because of how the

1174
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,040
mechanics kind of play out in that kind

1175
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,640
of five-minute span it goes from being

1176
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,800
being like this okay yeah this is a big

1177
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,000
moment reveal happened

1178
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,599
cut to

1179
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,520
two characters on the floor having

1180
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:01,440
nervous breakdowns once throwing up in a

1181
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,839
trash can because the dice rolls went

1182
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,920
terribly for them and i could adds to it

1183
00:38:03,839 --> 00:38:07,599
at that point i guess it's not like it's

1184
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,280
you you have a moment you have a bad

1185
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:11,040
moment you have this kind of big aha

1186
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,200
moment the players are reacting to it

1187
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,400
versus kind of grappling with it and

1188
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,160
that's kind of the way these games work

1189
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,599
it's like okay yeah here's what you

1190
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,520
learned

1191
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:21,599
roll some dice to tell me how you react

1192
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,000
okay two of you failed sand tests okay

1193
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:25,200
cool how bad did you fail those sanity

1194
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,440
tests okay

1195
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,079
really badly in one of your cases give

1196
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:33,280
me a constitution check why just give it

1197
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:35,040
to me okay now give me a dex check why

1198
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,240
you successfully grab a trash can to

1199
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,040
throw up and do while you're having your

1200
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,640
nervous breakdown

1201
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,839
[Laughter]

1202
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,079
and you can kind of go into this

1203
00:38:39,839 --> 00:38:43,520
beautiful flowchart yeah i think like

1204
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:45,440
one of the funniest moments in the

1205
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,520
podcast so far is actually in the first

1206
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,320
season of delta green up j-cell files

1207
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,320
where we were very focused on the

1208
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,680
skipping out on work the kind of the

1209
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,359
the hey you're

1210
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,320
ditching your day job to go do delta

1211
00:38:55,359 --> 00:38:58,240
green stuff and kind of the

1212
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,760
ramifications of that and

1213
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:02,079
one of the funniest moments was a

1214
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,079
character was pretending to be sick to

1215
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:06,480
get out of work type of thing and they

1216
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:08,720
low-grade poisoned themselves and the

1217
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,079
dice rolls kept betraying them so it

1218
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:11,920
went from like oh yeah you were

1219
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:14,720
pretending to be sick to know you

1220
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:17,280
actually poisoned yourself and threw up

1221
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:20,079
all over your boss and like it is this

1222
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,280
very real moment of like oh god i just

1223
00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:23,359
took this thing that will make me feel

1224
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,760
ill and give me a legitimate excuse to i

1225
00:39:23,359 --> 00:39:27,520
might get fired because i projectile

1226
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,040
vomited all over my bosses he was coming

1227
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,960
to talk to me about how i keep getting

1228
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,040
sick and taking sick time

1229
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,720
what it's like yeah

1230
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,880
comedic but also like because it's a

1231
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:39,280
real fear a normal person might have

1232
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,040
yeah horrifying

1233
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,200
i think you read my mind a little bit

1234
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,200
because the reason why i asked that

1235
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,640
question um

1236
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,800
is i wanted to ask about as i said my

1237
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,200
during my research i was on wikipedia

1238
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,480
looking at all these types of

1239
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,440
horror and you've got the main ones that

1240
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,200
you've mentioned already but then you've

1241
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,839
also got like

1242
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,119
it's all literary based right on books

1243
00:39:59,839 --> 00:40:02,880
and films

1244
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:05,280
and it's all there's like there's like a

1245
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,880
weird weird horror and then there's new

1246
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,280
weird which is like the 21st century

1247
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,440
version yeah yeah they're all sub sub

1248
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,280
sub genres and and mishmash and all this

1249
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,440
other like cult and then classic hot red

1250
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,800
and then like werewolf has its own sub

1251
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,200
genre for like

1252
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,040
metamorphosis horror blah blah blah what

1253
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,520
i'm getting is there's loads of stuff

1254
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,760
that i've never even begun to understand

1255
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,280
and then it made me think like

1256
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,240
because it's so

1257
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,400
vast and nuanced and layered and

1258
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:35,440
you know mired in subgenres how does

1259
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:38,560
that translate to running a game at a

1260
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:41,359
table something that's so full of its

1261
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:44,079
own nuances full of its own

1262
00:40:41,359 --> 00:40:48,240
drawbacks and pitfalls how can we bring

1263
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:51,280
in this huge thing and try and meld it

1264
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:54,079
into the medium of ttrpgs which is very

1265
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,520
much its own thing its own beast in of

1266
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:56,240
itself and that

1267
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,760
is

1268
00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:00,000
the first question

1269
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,599
which then made me think like

1270
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,040
you have these dice rolls that you've

1271
00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:04,079
just been going through

1272
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,400
can that

1273
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:07,920
can that undermine the atmosphere and

1274
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,240
the example i thought of in my head was

1275
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,240
like you're in you know you've done all

1276
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:14,720
this foreshadowing as the gm you've done

1277
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:18,000
all this hard work you you go

1278
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:20,480
into they're in some spooky catacombs or

1279
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,319
whatnot and you you've worked your ass

1280
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,599
off to have this

1281
00:41:22,319 --> 00:41:25,040
atmosphere

1282
00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:26,640
and then one of the player characters

1283
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,720
says i want to

1284
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,240
do something a bit audacious so i want

1285
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,160
to you know some skeletons are rising up

1286
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:34,400
i want to bash all the skeletons down in

1287
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,000
one hit or i want to do something with

1288
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,480
the light to make it illuminate the

1289
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,000
whole room so we can see everything and

1290
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,560
it's a hard roll but maybe they roll

1291
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,640
really well and it's just sweeps the rug

1292
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,280
out of this atmosphere completely

1293
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,520
undermines the atmosphere because of a

1294
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,480
dice roll and i wanted to get your take

1295
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,119
on on that am i completely

1296
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,319
bonkers or is that something yeah

1297
00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:58,079
so i

1298
00:41:56,319 --> 00:41:59,440
i got two reactions to that anyone who's

1299
00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:01,200
ever played with me i think i cut it out

1300
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,440
of the podcast mostly but anyone's ever

1301
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,599
played with me knows i love the phrase

1302
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,960
i'm looking for failure which is like

1303
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:08,560
half the dice rolls i'll make people

1304
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,079
rule it's like i'm like no no i'm

1305
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,520
looking for a critical failure right now

1306
00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:12,640
you're gonna do this unless your

1307
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,040
character

1308
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,040
majestically screws up in the worst way

1309
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,640
possible type of thing like it's i'm

1310
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,880
looking for kind of that worst case

1311
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,160
scenario to happen to kind of

1312
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,160
then we'll play with it it might be like

1313
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,760
yeah you're doing this in like a 10 you

1314
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,280
put on the table and it collapses making

1315
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,280
a loud noise and there goes your stealth

1316
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:32,400
vibe or something but to kind of get

1317
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,200
more to what you're saying specifically

1318
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,680
i think there's it's a more modern thing

1319
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,280
i guess i think it's kind of

1320
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,880
i'm not advocating for the world when i

1321
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,200
saying this like i do think like i think

1322
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,400
a lot of gm's and dms and a variety of

1323
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,520
other people

1324
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,599
go out of their way to being

1325
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,440
too accommodating of players trying to

1326
00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:54,000
try stuff and i'm not saying you

1327
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,280
shouldn't encourage and foster

1328
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,720
creativity in your play like yeah we

1329
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,119
drop the chandelier on them to kill the

1330
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:02,000
monster yeah that's totally fine

1331
00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:04,160
i think there's

1332
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,319
a lot of players are expecting or kind

1333
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,520
of have gotten away with or have

1334
00:43:06,319 --> 00:43:12,640
encountered situations where they can

1335
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,560
within reason do whatever they want and

1336
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,319
my definition of within reason is not

1337
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,839
the same as most other people i've

1338
00:43:16,319 --> 00:43:19,200
learned and

1339
00:43:17,839 --> 00:43:20,240
it's one of those ones which i it's like

1340
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,319
to use you're like i want to do the

1341
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:23,359
light thing it's like okay how do you do

1342
00:43:22,319 --> 00:43:24,960
that

1343
00:43:23,359 --> 00:43:27,599
well i do the light thing no no how do

1344
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,960
you do that no i i i move the light yeah

1345
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,480
i don't care that you're doing that how

1346
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,359
are you actually doing that explain to

1347
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,720
me how your character does that

1348
00:43:33,359 --> 00:43:36,160
and if they can't explain that to me i'm

1349
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:37,359
like no you can't do that like you don't

1350
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,440
know what you're doing your characters

1351
00:43:37,359 --> 00:43:41,599
know what they're doing like

1352
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,800
like i like the idea but

1353
00:43:41,599 --> 00:43:44,880
you're not capable of doing that as a

1354
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,359
character i i know what you mean i think

1355
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,200
as i was explaining to it it more became

1356
00:43:47,359 --> 00:43:50,800
more obvious to me that i think that's

1357
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,920
less of a mechanical question and more

1358
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,280
of a

1359
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,720
social

1360
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,760
question and i think

1361
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:57,200
and this is something i've definitely

1362
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,800
talked about in the podcast before about

1363
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,319
meeting in the middle and trusting

1364
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,319
players and trusting each other and

1365
00:44:00,319 --> 00:44:05,920
trusting the games whilst doing that

1366
00:44:02,319 --> 00:44:07,680
as a player to be like okay i know

1367
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,240
the gm is

1368
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:13,280
working hard to achieve this atmosphere

1369
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:15,760
i probably shouldn't do anything that's

1370
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,280
gonna undermine it and and here's where

1371
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,280
the tough decisions come in because it

1372
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,720
might be the case of like oh my player

1373
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,880
my character maybe would really want to

1374
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:25,359
do this but i know what is happening

1375
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,400
right now so i might take a step back to

1376
00:44:25,359 --> 00:44:28,880
just

1377
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,480
let everybody else appreciate the vibe

1378
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,079
i think that's

1379
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,560
i i'm probably not coming off the way i

1380
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:35,760
want to on this one it's i think that's

1381
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,440
fine i think it's one of those ones

1382
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,920
where you can use the mechanics to kind

1383
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,920
of enforce

1384
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,359
what you're going for use your skeletons

1385
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,359
popping up and bashing things i want to

1386
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:47,520
bash all of them

1387
00:44:45,359 --> 00:44:48,960
do you have like a cleave attack well no

1388
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,800
i've only got one attack versus one

1389
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,040
thing okay you can bash

1390
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,079
one of the skeletons but also now you're

1391
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,240
like

1392
00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:57,839
surrounded by the skeletons just making

1393
00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:00,720
sure we're clear on how this is going to

1394
00:44:57,839 --> 00:45:02,079
work yeah yeah like it's you can use the

1395
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:04,720
mechanics to kind of back up that was

1396
00:45:02,079 --> 00:45:06,160
like no do the cool thing but understand

1397
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,599
like

1398
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,599
there are rules to what you can do with

1399
00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:11,440
the cool thing like yeah it's hard or

1400
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:13,200
like that sure sounds like something

1401
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,480
you'd be bad at as a character with your

1402
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,200
background

1403
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:19,119
no i i completely subscribe to that

1404
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,040
to that train of thought as well

1405
00:45:19,119 --> 00:45:23,119
and i understand where you're coming

1406
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,640
from in terms of players being able to

1407
00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:26,480
do like i want to do this that and the

1408
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,640
other but it's like no you know tell me

1409
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,160
i'm a huge fan of that tell me tell me

1410
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,839
how are you achieving

1411
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,079
how are you achieving that something

1412
00:45:31,839 --> 00:45:36,800
that personally irks me and this is

1413
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:39,119
again full disclosure personal and it's

1414
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,400
it's me as a human being here talking

1415
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:44,640
but you know like the help action in d d

1416
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,720
is a classic example of like i just want

1417
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,400
to help this person do that thing to

1418
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:50,160
give them advantage

1419
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,400
on the role and that

1420
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,520
if i'm in a game where the player gets

1421
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,040
away with

1422
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,800
gets away with that scot-free and just

1423
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,480
gets advantage

1424
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,359
that irks me cause i'm like no how how

1425
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,640
are you

1426
00:45:59,359 --> 00:46:02,480
someone's trying to break open the door

1427
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,480
with a crowbar how do you help other

1428
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:08,240
than just like

1429
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,599
encouraging them with some kind words

1430
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:11,599
well none so that's that's the thing i

1431
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:14,160
get into as well where it's like how do

1432
00:46:11,599 --> 00:46:16,319
you apply advantage in this situation uh

1433
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,880
you can't apply like a crowbar in a door

1434
00:46:16,319 --> 00:46:20,079
it's like okay do you kick the door like

1435
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,680
yeah it's one of those things i'm not

1436
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:23,839
sure you can help but you can also like

1437
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,280
attack the door yourself i

1438
00:46:23,839 --> 00:46:26,720
yeah i think there's kind of some gray

1439
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,520
zone when it comes to that stuff where

1440
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:31,119
it's to use dnd specifically i'm not

1441
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,520
sure i'd allow advantage in that okay

1442
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:36,000
i'm gonna pick the lock i give advantage

1443
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,599
how mm-hmm how are you possibly helping

1444
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,760
the situation are you in the air being

1445
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:41,280
like i believe you can do this do it

1446
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,040
you're good for this like is that what

1447
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,960
your character is doing like unless

1448
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:47,520
you're a bard i'm not going to do that i

1449
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,680
love that example because it's like

1450
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,920
the person picking the lock is already

1451
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,560
the best person at picking locks so

1452
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,400
anybody else trying to help them is

1453
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,599
not as good as them

1454
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,200
wanting to go back to kind of the lying

1455
00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:00,960
to your players thing i have uh

1456
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,000
definitely not exactly in d and d but

1457
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,319
had a moment okay i helped the player

1458
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,240
i'm like okay cool roll okay now roll

1459
00:47:04,319 --> 00:47:07,200
for advantage yeah because you're

1460
00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:10,200
actually a distraction you're

1461
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,200
disadvantaged

1462
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,640
what the hell were you thinking would be

1463
00:47:12,319 --> 00:47:14,640
helpful

1464
00:47:15,839 --> 00:47:21,440
yeah yeah absolutely that's perfect and

1465
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,079
i think to try and bring i know i've

1466
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,599
brought on this stupid digressed path

1467
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:26,400
about the mechanics when we were talking

1468
00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:29,440
about

1469
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,280
nice esoteric horror stuff but um

1470
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,400
i think to answer my own question around

1471
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,920
like

1472
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,640
can the mechanics undermine the

1473
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,920
atmosphere and i think and please tell

1474
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,520
me if i'm being an idiot but i think my

1475
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,319
answer would be

1476
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:44,559
it can if you let it and it's it's one

1477
00:47:42,319 --> 00:47:47,920
of those gm toolkit things of being like

1478
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:50,160
it's within your power to not let it

1479
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,680
in through various ways i think i bring

1480
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,359
this full circle in some ways and i

1481
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,200
bring it back to like i said very early

1482
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:58,319
on in this podcast

1483
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,599
some games have horror as a mechanic

1484
00:47:58,319 --> 00:48:01,839
built into the game your call of

1485
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:05,359
cthulhu's your delta greens anything

1486
00:48:01,839 --> 00:48:07,520
that has a stat that basically is

1487
00:48:05,359 --> 00:48:09,280
influenced by your exposure to horror

1488
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,520
elements deltarune has sanity tel of

1489
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,960
cthulhu has sanity a game i like a lot

1490
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,200
that's an indie game called focus

1491
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,400
basically has i think it's called stress

1492
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,079
in that game

1493
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,079
or basically it's the idea in that one

1494
00:48:18,079 --> 00:48:22,559
where the more weird stuff you've seen

1495
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:23,359
the more failure you've had the

1496
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:25,839
more

1497
00:48:23,359 --> 00:48:27,680
god this is spooky going on around you

1498
00:48:25,839 --> 00:48:30,240
the worse your character gets at

1499
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,920
everything as would make sense uh the

1500
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:35,040
jumper game i haven't talked about yet

1501
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:39,040
uh alien from free league the alien rpg

1502
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:40,720
i think is a fantastic first horror game

1503
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,800
horror game for people particularly i

1504
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:45,520
think the year zero engine is

1505
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,760
a system more groups should talk about

1506
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,200
like if you're

1507
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,800
your zero engine is put out by free

1508
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,160
league it's for a bunch of their games i

1509
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,520
could list them all off if you wanted me

1510
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,119
to but

1511
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,880
if you're looking for to try something

1512
00:48:55,119 --> 00:48:59,280
new i can't recommend any other stuff

1513
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,720
enough because the year zero engine

1514
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,400
slots into a bunch of things you can

1515
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:04,640
play a space game you can play a horror

1516
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,480
space game you can play

1517
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,760
two different medieval games i think

1518
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,359
maybe it's just one at this point but

1519
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,960
they have

1520
00:49:09,359 --> 00:49:13,280
three different horror games you can

1521
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,960
play kind of off of this one system that

1522
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,880
are dramatically different like two of

1523
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,480
them are basically stranger things one

1524
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,200
of them's alien one of them is called

1525
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,640
the vossen it's their um yes yeah

1526
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,119
yeah yeah that's their kind of

1527
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,680
scandinavian inspired

1528
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:29,920
mystery supernatural investigatory game

1529
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,359
which i like but also given the fact

1530
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,760
they're making a call of cthulhu game

1531
00:49:31,359 --> 00:49:35,200
allegedly i don't get why it exists but

1532
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,240
at the same time it's got a cool art

1533
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,240
style

1534
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,920
i've heard very good things about alien

1535
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,240
for the exact reasons that you mentioned

1536
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,920
but that begs my a very good question

1537
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:46,800
from my point of view then so you made a

1538
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,359
very good delineation there between

1539
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,760
games with horror as a mechanic

1540
00:49:49,359 --> 00:49:53,440
versus games that don't so i know

1541
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,000
broadly speaking dnd doesn't i know

1542
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,319
there's some effects if you go to some

1543
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,839
pandemonium planes that you you roll and

1544
00:49:58,319 --> 00:50:01,359
you might go a bit

1545
00:49:59,839 --> 00:50:02,960
goofy because of the you're on a

1546
00:50:01,359 --> 00:50:05,040
different plane of existence but it's

1547
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,559
not embedded it's not like in the basic

1548
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,559
rules shall we say it's not you know a

1549
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:10,079
fundamental part of the game it's it's

1550
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:11,119
an optional thing that may or may not

1551
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:13,359
happen

1552
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:14,880
so presumably you prefer games where it

1553
00:50:13,359 --> 00:50:17,200
is baked into the mechanics but how do

1554
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,960
you think that changes the

1555
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,520
experience and why do you prefer it when

1556
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,880
it's the horror element is baked into

1557
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,599
the mechanics like

1558
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,599
to me as a completely ignorant outsider

1559
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:29,440
that to me is like telling you how your

1560
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:30,640
character should feel am i i don't want

1561
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,599
to like

1562
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,880
no so it's um i

1563
00:50:33,599 --> 00:50:39,520
i'm a crunch guy i come from a long

1564
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,440
background in the crunchier the game the

1565
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,280
better in some ways i have

1566
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,599
veered off some as i've gotten older and

1567
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,680
realized like

1568
00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:50,800
not to sound braggy but like my early

1569
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:54,720
days of tabletop rpgs were in

1570
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:57,359
third edition shadow run nerds like

1571
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:59,280
tables on tables i could roll 30 dice

1572
00:50:57,359 --> 00:51:00,640
and still fail type of game type of

1573
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,480
stuff where

1574
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,240
if you wanted to build a god character

1575
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,559
you could because you could take enough

1576
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:08,960
weaknesses and advantages that like it's

1577
00:51:06,559 --> 00:51:12,000
like okay yeah i'm immune to all types

1578
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:14,160
of damage but i'm also bloodthirsty how

1579
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:16,079
is that a disadvantage yeah because the

1580
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:19,440
game says it is yeah

1581
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:21,040
it's a long about way of saying that i

1582
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,520
basically kind of i i come from a kind

1583
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:26,000
of mechanically heavy background and

1584
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,599
as a result i really appreciate games

1585
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,440
that are more

1586
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:30,880
narrative focused like delta green a lot

1587
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:34,160
of my favorite games at this point

1588
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,839
aren't anywhere near as crunch as

1589
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,720
i like them to be and i think that kind

1590
00:51:35,839 --> 00:51:38,400
of

1591
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:40,319
there's a freeing aspect of that and i

1592
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,480
think it's one of those ones where use

1593
00:51:40,319 --> 00:51:44,480
dnd is an example dnd is not a horror

1594
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,520
game it's not great at horror

1595
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:49,119
but straud exists

1596
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,720
and

1597
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,800
i'm not the biggest fan of straw at the

1598
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:54,319
end of the day kind of given i think

1599
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,880
it's evolved nicely over time i think

1600
00:51:54,319 --> 00:51:58,960
it's a beloved tenet of the flagpole of

1601
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,720
the community i don't think it's a great

1602
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,960
vampire story in some ways i think it

1603
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:04,800
doesn't go far enough but at the same

1604
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,319
time i get it like the

1605
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,599
the changes made to the modern version

1606
00:52:06,319 --> 00:52:09,760
were very smart and i think we're good

1607
00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:11,440
progress for that thing and it's not the

1608
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,680
way i tell a vampire story but it's a

1609
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,839
very traditional dracula story that fits

1610
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,520
in d yeah i can i just say i'm very

1611
00:52:15,839 --> 00:52:20,480
proud that we've gone this far in the

1612
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,319
show to only now just mention strad i'm

1613
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,319
i'm very happy with that

1614
00:52:22,319 --> 00:52:25,599
yeah i i i don't think i've started as a

1615
00:52:24,319 --> 00:52:27,440
horror camp anything there's a campaign

1616
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:28,480
with horror elements is the real answer

1617
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,480
i think it

1618
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,400
tries too hard at certain points to be

1619
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,760
horror riven like it's

1620
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,599
i think it's one of those ones where

1621
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,960
because of d a lot of people look at it

1622
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:38,480
and go oh it's a horror thing because

1623
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,760
it's more horrifying than what they're

1624
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,359
used to and

1625
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,200
those of us from the call of cthulhu

1626
00:52:41,359 --> 00:52:45,839
eldritch horror kind of

1627
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,280
character dies instantaneously realm go

1628
00:52:45,839 --> 00:52:49,440
that's cute

1629
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,079
but how quaint your character can fight

1630
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,200
the evil that's adorable

1631
00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:54,079
condescending

1632
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,640
so where i was going with the whole

1633
00:52:54,079 --> 00:52:59,119
mechanic aspect of it is in dungeons and

1634
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,559
dragons you only have one health bar and

1635
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:02,319
call of cthulhu with delta green kind of

1636
00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:04,800
the sandy driven games that have

1637
00:53:02,319 --> 00:53:07,760
mechanics around that you have two

1638
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,200
health bars technically yeah and

1639
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,400
you can build i can you can build a

1640
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,520
character that kind of makes both your

1641
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,839
health bars functional but you're

1642
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,440
sacrificing a lot like uh hoffman's

1643
00:53:13,839 --> 00:53:18,000
crusade is a character that's built um

1644
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,960
that's uh agent florence dr florence i

1645
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,880
guess i should probably use her full

1646
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:24,000
title is

1647
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:26,000
built to withstand sandy damage like no

1648
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,400
one else in that game

1649
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,480
i think she has single digit hit points

1650
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:33,119
though technically if she ever is shot

1651
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:35,760
or attacked she probably dies almost

1652
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:37,839
instantly yes it's a very kind of glass

1653
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,599
cannon approach to that aspect of the

1654
00:53:37,839 --> 00:53:42,800
character and that's how that game's

1655
00:53:39,599 --> 00:53:44,319
meant to work i think

1656
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,920
in a game like dungeons and dragons

1657
00:53:44,319 --> 00:53:48,240
because your characters are so

1658
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,119
inherently powerful it's more about kind

1659
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:51,760
of

1660
00:53:49,119 --> 00:53:53,920
vibe and theming as opposed to trying to

1661
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,240
lump those mechanics in there type of

1662
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,680
thing like a sandy mechanic in dungeons

1663
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,200
and dragons doesn't work because you're

1664
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,200
right it does

1665
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:04,319
dictate how your character

1666
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:06,000
in theory should feel but also

1667
00:54:04,319 --> 00:54:06,960
based on how you interact with the world

1668
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,520
in that game you're not going to get

1669
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,040
that same reaction out of it like it's

1670
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,480
the searching aspects of that game it's

1671
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,200
not there's not the rules or the

1672
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,880
mechanics necessarily to at base you can

1673
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:19,359
totally hack that game to do other stuff

1674
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,040
if you see fit like i've seen

1675
00:54:19,359 --> 00:54:22,640
some people take that game to understand

1676
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,359
directions where they kind of expand

1677
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,960
certain skills into lots of other skills

1678
00:54:25,359 --> 00:54:28,720
that again us in the call of cthulhu

1679
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,960
kind of eldritch horror world are like

1680
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:32,480
yeah we've had those skills for a while

1681
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,520
cool you made them up but like here's a

1682
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,720
list of things you could have just

1683
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,640
pulled from and

1684
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:38,400
it's not new

1685
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:40,319
again it's not me knocking d and d just

1686
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,480
it's occasionally it feels like people

1687
00:54:40,319 --> 00:54:44,079
say oh i invented this

1688
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,799
no you you didn't so there's actually

1689
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:46,799
stephen b and d

1690
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,280
yeah two editions ago okay that's

1691
00:54:49,359 --> 00:54:53,040
interesting yeah it's a sense of history

1692
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,359
and scope i guess and

1693
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:57,839
i i can kind of go back to dnd's horror

1694
00:54:55,359 --> 00:54:59,520
setting it's about putting it there as

1695
00:54:57,839 --> 00:55:00,880
kind of a backdrop and kind of making

1696
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,480
your monsters horrific and kind of

1697
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,480
adding the descriptions you're never

1698
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,559
gonna kind of mechanically get that same

1699
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:09,040
dread though in it just because the

1700
00:55:06,559 --> 00:55:10,400
characters are powerful and hard to kill

1701
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,160
compared to lots of other stuff out

1702
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,200
there like it's uh you're interacting

1703
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,960
with it differently you get to fight the

1704
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,240
monsters yeah

1705
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,359
and that just changes how the thing

1706
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:19,920
feels

1707
00:55:17,359 --> 00:55:21,599
no absolutely i think that's like such a

1708
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,319
thank you for putting that so eloquently

1709
00:55:21,599 --> 00:55:27,200
i think it's a nice marriage between

1710
00:55:24,319 --> 00:55:28,400
the mechanic side of things and then the

1711
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,400
like there's the other stuff you've

1712
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,880
described like it being an unknowable

1713
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,720
fear and this that and the other i think

1714
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,240
marrying those two in such a way you

1715
00:55:34,720 --> 00:55:38,559
know getting that venn diagram as close

1716
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:41,200
to a perfect circle as possible is

1717
00:55:38,559 --> 00:55:43,680
that that is where the gold lies that is

1718
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,599
where the good times come from is is

1719
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,520
having that marriage of

1720
00:55:45,599 --> 00:55:48,960
the mechanical things from the ground up

1721
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,119
plus the

1722
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,240
you know the genuine

1723
00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:53,359
okay well

1724
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,200
if you're gonna sound pretentious so

1725
00:55:53,359 --> 00:55:57,280
will i uh quote unquote the genuine

1726
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,119
horror uh

1727
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,880
elements no and i think

1728
00:55:59,119 --> 00:56:02,799
if people are kind of interested in kind

1729
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:05,200
of so there's an expansion i think it's

1730
00:56:02,799 --> 00:56:07,119
out right now for dnd it's um

1731
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,839
i think called the ruins of symbol room

1732
00:56:07,119 --> 00:56:09,920
it's

1733
00:56:07,839 --> 00:56:12,640
there's a game i love out there called

1734
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,319
zoom room they made a 5e

1735
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,680
setting guide for

1736
00:56:14,319 --> 00:56:17,520
and

1737
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,520
the setting of subaru is why you play

1738
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,960
subaru like that game has a couple other

1739
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,839
problems i love the game despite them

1740
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:26,079
type of thing yeah it is

1741
00:56:23,839 --> 00:56:27,520
one of the few adventuring games out

1742
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:30,319
there kind of very adventure focused

1743
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,839
very we're gonna go raid the dungeon

1744
00:56:30,319 --> 00:56:34,559
centric game

1745
00:56:31,839 --> 00:56:36,559
that actually pulls off horror and i'm

1746
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:37,680
not quite sure how the five efi rules

1747
00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:39,440
for it work

1748
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,400
but it does that

1749
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:44,720
by

1750
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:46,000
making magic horrifying to use

1751
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:47,359
where it's like yeah you have to oh yeah

1752
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,359
we have these priests we have these

1753
00:56:47,359 --> 00:56:50,319
wizards etcetera etcetera

1754
00:56:49,359 --> 00:56:53,839
and

1755
00:56:50,319 --> 00:56:57,040
using magic causes their skin to blister

1756
00:56:53,839 --> 00:56:59,040
and turn dark and it goes away

1757
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,960
unless you use too much of it and then

1758
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,280
your character slowly mutates into a

1759
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:06,000
monster over time

1760
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,520
again it's it's a grim dark setting it's

1761
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,119
one of the few grim dark things doesn't

1762
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,960
feel kind of like a bad copy of some of

1763
00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:13,200
the warhammer type of stuff it's very

1764
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,680
uniquely its own thing it's got this

1765
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,520
very kind of fun we're not quite the

1766
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,160
industrial revolution but we're also not

1767
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,440
quite the dark ages and

1768
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:24,000
i think the tech

1769
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,760
lines up nicely for it it's

1770
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,240
it's a low magic setting that you could

1771
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:30,400
have an entire party of very competent

1772
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,240
magic users i it's a very interesting

1773
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,559
it's a uniquely it thing and i'd highly

1774
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,240
recommend anyone who's been kind of like

1775
00:57:34,559 --> 00:57:38,079
i recommend going checking out what i

1776
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,000
call real subaru or kind of traditional

1777
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:42,000
zoom room the rules for zoomers i think

1778
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,520
they're an amazing set of rules for that

1779
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,799
type of game i think it does a very good

1780
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,720
job of

1781
00:57:44,799 --> 00:57:48,480
bringing back some of the crunchier

1782
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,799
character creation stuff that i miss

1783
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,400
from older adventure games but still

1784
00:57:50,799 --> 00:57:54,880
keeping it very streamlined and new

1785
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:57,440
player friendly and mechanically quite

1786
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,400
like no it's pass fail it's simple like

1787
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,599
it's

1788
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,799
it works quite well you can pick it up

1789
00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:02,880
almost instantly

1790
00:58:00,799 --> 00:58:04,880
modern quality of life improvements yeah

1791
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,040
yeah and it's not even that modern game

1792
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,440
like it could use some refinement as

1793
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:11,599
much as i love the base book for it that

1794
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,680
facebook could use a second edition that

1795
00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:16,559
just kind of fixes how the information

1796
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,280
is laid out in it some but sure i think

1797
00:58:16,559 --> 00:58:19,920
it's

1798
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,440
there's a lot to learn from that game

1799
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,040
and i think i haven't ever unfortunately

1800
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,640
haven't read it yet and i probably won't

1801
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,559
get around to it any time soon but the

1802
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:28,240
five effication of it

1803
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:29,680
the suburb community was kind of worried

1804
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,520
that hey we're doing this thing like so

1805
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,880
you're gonna keep supporting original

1806
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,799
zumba right and the answer is yeah we're

1807
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,720
all happy about that but the reaction's

1808
00:58:34,799 --> 00:58:38,640
been very positive to

1809
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,240
them bringing over kind of what makes

1810
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,079
suma room feel

1811
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,920
uniquely subaru

1812
00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:46,160
to d and d and i think a lot of people

1813
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:48,960
that struggle with how to do

1814
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,720
horror kind of how what horror works in

1815
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:52,319
adventure type setting

1816
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,000
should check out the suma room stuff

1817
00:58:52,319 --> 00:58:56,079
like it's at a minimum it's a very

1818
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,839
interesting world to be familiar with i

1819
00:58:56,079 --> 00:59:00,400
think it's it's not as high fancy

1820
00:58:57,839 --> 00:59:02,559
fantasy or kind of interesting as um

1821
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,920
go to embaram herbaram

1822
00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:05,680
steampunk one that came out yeah it's

1823
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,960
it's not it's not that it's not as

1824
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,200
friendly as that one it's not it's it's

1825
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:11,440
not as clean as any dnd world has been

1826
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:13,359
today like it's very weird that like the

1827
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,799
hell dimension of anything watson's ever

1828
00:59:13,359 --> 00:59:16,960
done is still

1829
00:59:14,799 --> 00:59:18,160
somehow nicer than the default setting

1830
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,520
of some room where it's like yeah it's a

1831
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,640
town

1832
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,319
and that's kind of hard to do without

1833
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,680
the art style of that game like it's the

1834
00:59:22,319 --> 00:59:26,160
everything about that game is kind of

1835
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,680
tied up in what that game exactly is

1836
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,520
it's trying to be nothing but itself

1837
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,880
which you give it points for but i think

1838
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,760
it's

1839
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,119
yeah i

1840
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,640
look to that game where it's like it's

1841
00:59:33,119 --> 00:59:36,799
not inherently a horror game but it's

1842
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,720
got very good horror elements yeah that

1843
00:59:36,799 --> 00:59:40,880
you can leverage yeah the lore of it

1844
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,599
kind of feeds into yeah look this is

1845
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,559
like

1846
00:59:41,599 --> 00:59:47,040
you're going into this haunted forest

1847
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:49,760
how haunted it might be a gateway to

1848
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:51,760
hell it might not it might be worse but

1849
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,599
yeah go in there and raid some tombs but

1850
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,200
you just said hell dimension yeah go and

1851
00:59:53,599 --> 00:59:57,280
write some tombs though why because

1852
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,180
we're paying you to go do it what's in

1853
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,520
the tomb

1854
00:59:58,180 --> 01:00:01,280
[Music]

1855
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,280
hell uh

1856
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:05,839
yeah it's some of the lore that gets

1857
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,839
crazy for that game like uh

1858
01:00:05,839 --> 01:00:09,920
spoilers not really it's in the two it's

1859
01:00:07,839 --> 01:00:11,760
doing it's into the basebooks there are

1860
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,440
three species in the game that are just

1861
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:16,319
different evolutionary tracks of each

1862
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:18,720
other and how far they go underneath the

1863
01:00:16,319 --> 01:00:20,880
cursed forest to

1864
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,880
go through essentially metamorphosis

1865
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,160
and it's cool yeah like it's as a result

1866
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,440
it's kind of cool so yeah this is whole

1867
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,520
it's like yeah there's this cavern

1868
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,119
system below the forest what's in it

1869
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,359
death

1870
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:35,119
like metaphorically

1871
01:00:31,359 --> 01:00:36,640
yes but actually yes also literally yeah

1872
01:00:35,119 --> 01:00:37,920
yeah six and one and half a dozen of the

1873
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,160
other

1874
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,760
there may be a giant mass of eyes and

1875
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:44,000
shapes that used to be a deer down there

1876
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,280
too also might be death you said a deer

1877
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,520
yeah it shouldn't have gone into that

1878
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,520
cave

1879
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:52,000
anyway you have to go there

1880
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:54,240
yeah uh well thank you for that tip

1881
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,359
there and suggestion um is there

1882
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,920
anything you wanted to talk about that

1883
01:00:55,359 --> 01:01:00,240
we might have missed and i yeah yeah i

1884
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,760
can only imagine yes but uh the answer

1885
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,920
is yeah but i think we've covered

1886
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,599
everything i can think of in this area

1887
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,280
we've definitely branched out

1888
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:08,720
significantly i've gotten to

1889
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,000
promote two of my favorite games out

1890
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,480
there in the modern world right now so

1891
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,079
i'm happy about that i'll get good i get

1892
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,440
one person to try a delta green or zoom

1893
01:01:14,079 --> 01:01:16,480
room on any of these things i'm always

1894
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,200
happy

1895
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:21,599
i know for sure and i'm i'm super happy

1896
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,839
as well because it could have been very

1897
01:01:21,599 --> 01:01:26,400
easy just to do like let's talk about

1898
01:01:23,839 --> 01:01:28,799
strad for an hour so i'm i'm glad that

1899
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:31,200
we we've covered some more i said like

1900
01:01:28,799 --> 01:01:32,799
esoteric and more kind of trickier

1901
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,040
topics so no thank you thank you very

1902
01:01:32,799 --> 01:01:37,119
much for that yeah yeah it goes back to

1903
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:39,359
kind of the point i made of a lot of

1904
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:41,520
stuff i i get people love 5v and i get

1905
01:01:39,359 --> 01:01:43,280
why people love 5e

1906
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,400
5e won't be here forever

1907
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,079
there's lots of games out there that i'm

1908
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,319
not saying you should stop playing 5e

1909
01:01:46,079 --> 01:01:49,839
but variety is the spice of life like

1910
01:01:48,319 --> 01:01:51,839
try something new every once in a while

1911
01:01:49,839 --> 01:01:53,040
i've never regretted i've had games i

1912
01:01:51,839 --> 01:01:54,799
hate it but i'm stuck okay i learned

1913
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,720
something interesting from this

1914
01:01:54,799 --> 01:01:59,039
yeah it's always you know there's a

1915
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,799
tools are specialized to do certain

1916
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:03,440
things and you wouldn't use a hammer to

1917
01:02:00,799 --> 01:02:05,200
you know unscrew the washer of your tap

1918
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,280
i mean you could definitely get there in

1919
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,680
the end but it would be a

1920
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:11,520
mess uh and in the same way

1921
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:13,440
still

1922
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,119
in the same way that like there are

1923
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:17,440
certain ttrpg systems out there that are

1924
01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:19,440
designed from the ground up to enable

1925
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,039
certain types of play so yeah absolutely

1926
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,520
that's just the way

1927
01:02:21,039 --> 01:02:24,640
of the world but uh no so thank you very

1928
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,960
much for that is there is there anything

1929
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,400
you would like to promote obviously i

1930
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,720
mentioned negative modifier a couple

1931
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,079
times throughout this but yes if

1932
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,680
anything i've talked about any of the

1933
01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:34,799
games i've talked about interest you you

1934
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,440
should go check out the negative

1935
01:02:34,799 --> 01:02:38,240
modifier podcast we post weekly when we

1936
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,680
are

1937
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,200
kind of in a campaign and as of

1938
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,440
recording this we are very much in a

1939
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:46,240
campaign and will be for the foreseeable

1940
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:48,960
future episodes go up on

1941
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:51,359
wednesday depending on your time zone

1942
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:53,039
and your geographical location but

1943
01:02:51,359 --> 01:02:54,559
wednesday for me at least is when we say

1944
01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:56,079
stuff goes up it's

1945
01:02:54,559 --> 01:02:58,079
for many up there a little bit sooner

1946
01:02:56,079 --> 01:02:59,599
but yeah no we post weekly we're doing

1947
01:02:58,079 --> 01:03:00,559
delta green stuff right now we have a

1948
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:01,520
couple

1949
01:03:00,559 --> 01:03:03,200
kind of

1950
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:04,319
pre-recorded seasons already done you

1951
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,400
can go check out if you find us

1952
01:03:04,319 --> 01:03:08,400
interesting we can be found anywhere

1953
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,240
podcasts are found also on youtube we

1954
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,480
have a twitch we use

1955
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,839
every once in a while same name if you

1956
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,280
easy way to find us just type negative

1957
01:03:13,839 --> 01:03:18,480
modifier into anything you're looking

1958
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,920
for or go to negativemodifier.com

1959
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,960
and that'll take you to kind of our nice

1960
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,720
little

1961
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,880
list of links you can find us on and

1962
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:26,319
other stuff like that but yeah i

1963
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,200
if you're looking for horror stuff we

1964
01:03:26,319 --> 01:03:28,880
are

1965
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,200
no one has been upset since they checked

1966
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:33,039
us out is our joke we always have

1967
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:35,039
we seem to have a very loyal fan base

1968
01:03:33,039 --> 01:03:36,799
once they show up they occasionally

1969
01:03:35,039 --> 01:03:39,119
don't like the stories we tell or how

1970
01:03:36,799 --> 01:03:41,440
they end but the stories are good

1971
01:03:39,119 --> 01:03:42,960
until people get angry at them or

1972
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:45,839
it's like i wouldn't have done that well

1973
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,799
we did so

1974
01:03:45,839 --> 01:03:48,880
well

1975
01:03:46,799 --> 01:03:50,720
so as usual all the links will be in the

1976
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,000
description i do encourage you to check

1977
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,000
them out anything we've talked about

1978
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:57,839
today has piqued your interest in the

1979
01:03:54,000 --> 01:04:00,480
the horror genre of ttrpgs so all that's

1980
01:03:57,839 --> 01:04:01,920
left to say is thank you ever so much

1981
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,160
charlie for this insightful discussion

1982
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:07,440
on horror thank you for having me thank

1983
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:10,400
you everybody for listening at home

1984
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,960
yeah as as usual please like comment

1985
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:15,839
subscribe all the all the usual spooky

1986
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:17,920
stuff that you get asked to do and uh

1987
01:04:15,839 --> 01:04:20,319
yeah thank you all for listening and

1988
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,920
good night

1989
01:04:20,319 --> 01:04:24,319
and now it's time for the patreon shout

1990
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,880
outs once again thank you to matt street

1991
01:04:24,319 --> 01:04:27,760
at mpstreet88 on twitter for supporting

1992
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,039
the show

1993
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:32,039
if you need support running your

1994
01:04:29,039 --> 01:04:34,240
personal or business schedule head to

1995
01:04:32,039 --> 01:04:35,920
virtualtimehustle.com or on instagram to

1996
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,079
make that difference between should do

1997
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,920
and done boss it better with support

1998
01:04:38,079 --> 01:04:42,160
from cat who will help you get back that

1999
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,680
essential time you've been searching for

2000
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:45,520
if you would like to support what we do

2001
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,000
and get four shout outs a month head

2002
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,720
over to

2003
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,960
patreon.comthinkingcritically or you can

2004
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,799
just buy me a coffee at kofi.com

2005
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:55,039
thinking critically

2006
01:04:52,799 --> 01:04:58,160
i would also like to humbly request that

2007
01:04:55,039 --> 01:05:00,000
you drop me a rating on spotify which is

2008
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,599
a thing now you can do on the mobile app

2009
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:04,480
or just a

2010
01:05:01,599 --> 01:05:07,039
like subscribe follow

2011
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:09,680
shout out tell your friends anything

2012
01:05:07,039 --> 01:05:11,119
would be hugely appreciated probably

2013
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:16,760
more than the other stuff to be honest

2014
01:05:11,119 --> 01:05:16,760
so thanks again for listening and bye

2015
01:05:17,110 --> 01:05:24,240
[Applause]

2016
01:05:24,130 --> 01:05:29,360
[Music]

2017
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:29,360
[Applause]

2018
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,290
[Music]