Extinction

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welcome thinkers to season four episode

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seven of thinking critically a d d

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discussion

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no new announcements this week

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so the only thing left to say is i hope

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you really enjoy the episode so without

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further ado here it is

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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and today i'm joined once again by lucas

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sellers thank you ever so much for

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returning to the show lucas can you tell

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us a little bit about yourself

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thanks for having me back dan i have

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styled myself now as a narrative

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designer

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wow i know it's very fancy i've been

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working at the intersection of game

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design and natural history and i'm the

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creator of book of extinction with me

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chan press a best-selling dm skilled

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author host of the podcast making a

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monster and a creative marketing

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professional in my day job amazing and

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of of course your number one credential

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is you were on thinking critically again

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of course okay i forget yes uh november

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guest of uh

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thinking critically major federation way

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up there yeah

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[Laughter]

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um

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yes of course lucas with us before

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talking about monsters which will be

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linked to the episode description and i

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would encourage everybody to check it

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out it's a fan favorite if i do say say

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oh great yeah indeed however today's

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topic is perhaps the other side of that

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same coin extinction

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so

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what does that mean to you within the d

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and wider ttrpg framework it did come up

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a little bit last time i was here

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extinction

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is the defining scientific idea of our

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time

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and it is

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at the core of what makes dnd

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what it is

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i mean

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how how deep do we want to go how long

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do you want me to talk like right out of

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the gate at the beginning of the show

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like for 55 minutes if you could in the

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morning

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[Laughter]

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gosh why don't you why don't you

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elaborate on that because you just said

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they're what it's the core of of d and i

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don't think i would ever find another

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guest to

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to open an episode with such an

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audacious comment

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that's that's the journalist in me uh

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i'm i'm running with the headline first

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so first of all extinction is probably

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the first thing about natural history

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that you would learn if you were born

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i don't know any time after the release

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of jurassic park or probably within

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about 20 years of that

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we give kids plastic dinosaurs and uh

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we're just used to the idea now that

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there used to be big giant things that

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aren't around anymore

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so it's it's one of the primary ways in

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which we relate to the natural world now

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so extinction is the defining scientific

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idea of our time we're very used to

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extinction at this point we just sort of

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take it for granted

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but it wasn't always a part of

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scientific discourse in fact it's fairly

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it's a fairly recent addition

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um thomas jefferson was

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wrote in his notes on the state of

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virginia that such is the economy of

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nature that no instance can be produced

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of her having permitted any one race of

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her animals to become extinct of her

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having formed any lincoln her great work

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so weak as to be broken and that was in

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1781 and it didn't it wasn't that idea

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wasn't unseated like that was based on

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just the assumption of all of natural

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history back to pliny in ancient greece

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and it persisted until 1796 when georges

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cuvier was the first one to

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suggest that the bones of the american

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mastodon belonged to an espicia perdu

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or a lost species and now i have tried

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to pronounce a french word which is

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making me extremely self-conscious but

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you're talking to an englishman here

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notoriously unable to

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it's probably better that i

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mispronounced the french i suppose

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i wouldn't be able to tell you here if

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it's a correct or not so no that's fine

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you made me think there that

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in a way do you think people are maybe

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uh

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numb is maybe too strong a word but like

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desensitized to that now as it's so oh

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absolutely ingrained in our childhood

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that like oh another animal was going

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extinct well that's just life i guess

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yeah and that's er that's kind of the

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point we're in the midst of what

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elizabeth colbert calls the sixth mass

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extinction there have been five of them

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over the course of uh recorded history

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or rather the historical record that we

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have back to

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back through

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time and this is the one

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you know the last one was the kt

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extinction event or at least that's how

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we sort of think of it the one that is

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thought to have been caused by an

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asteroid impact in the yucatan the one

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that killed the dinosaurs and now we're

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in a place where

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extinction is happening at an estimated

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45

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000 times higher than the background

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extinction rate

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it's incredibly difficult to calculate

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how often species go extinct even before

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this ecological situation in which we

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find ourselves but the best estimate

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i've found is that for mammals the

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background extinction rate is one

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species every

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700 years

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and i have a list of

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over a hundred that i have been uh

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working through

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but go back to years with four digits

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like the what's known as the holocene

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the most recent geological epoch um

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after after humans came to prominence in

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the in the geological record so it's

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numb is a good word

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it's an overwhelming

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part of how we experience and interact

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with the natural world right now yeah

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yeah i must admit i am apart from

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being into

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dinosaurs my

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my knowledge on the on the on the

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subject is lacking

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and it is not you know it's not the most

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glamorous of topics or let me let me

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rephrase that it's not the most um

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uplifting i guess yeah it's hard to talk

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about um

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i've been digging up extinction stories

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for

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about a year now to put this book

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together and there have been moments

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where i just uh i've had to walk away

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from my desk in tears because of what

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i've read um and i and i do

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i have found a way to be hopeful about

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it and that's really why i'm here

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so you know i i i imagine we'll get to

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that soon

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well

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uh kyrgyzstan the uh youtuber series

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they did a similar kind of hopeful take

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on on climate change as a as a whole and

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the ending note was like

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it's not all

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doom and gloom there is there is still

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possibility for change oh yeah every

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endangered species is a success story

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waiting to happen oh that that's so

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wholesome save that for the end man

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i'll say it again if i have to have a

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few more of these

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yeah it's hard to talk about because i

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have to like i have to bring people into

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the podcast right out of the way um

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thankfully we've talked already and you

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you kind of know me but i have to sort

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of meet people and say hey we're living

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in a zoologically impoverished era

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and that kind of sucks doesn't it and

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then you know then we have to like

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that's the place that we have to be

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um

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where we have to kind of have the

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conversation so it's hard to do

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in point of fact the uh the american

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psychological association recognized eco

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anxiety

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as a

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uh i don't want to say disorder or a

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symptom um or as a source of a kind of

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anxiety in 2017 it's sort of the fear

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that we're living on a world that will

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soon be unable to support the basic

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biological functions of life so this is

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real and it is hard to talk about and

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i'm more familiar with that difficulty

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than most but one of the things that i

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am desperately trying to do when i write

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about extinction especially in the

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context of dungeons and dragons is to

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write about it in a way that provides

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hope or at the very least an antidote to

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despair

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let's do let's do that classic academic

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tip that certainly younger teachers who

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teach younger generations doing is it's

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making the thing interestingly exciting

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so the the question i have for you is

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obviously been working on

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both making monster and book of

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extinction and i wanted you to

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what kind of interesting animals have

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you

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looked at

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which may have gone extinct that i may

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not have heard of that were probably

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weird and wacky to my uneducated brain

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yeah okay this is this is the fun part

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of this this is

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this is what makes this worth doing

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because every extinction story that i

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have read has been just

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bonkers like i couldn't have made this

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stuff up

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so first of all there's a few that

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everybody wants to talk about right like

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when people talk to me about extinct

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animals they have their favorite

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um and i tried to pick a couple that

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were

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consistent favorites to put in the

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preview so there's three of them out

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right now and you can kind of see my

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design process for how this works one of

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them is the great awk i have the

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thylacine or tasmanian tiger and the the

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passenger pigeon

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i think my favorite of those is the the

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tasmanian tiger

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it was a

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marsupial wolf and and wolf

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tiger nor wolf nor hyena nor jackal are

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really an appropriate

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label for this thing

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um but it's the best we we have it's

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uncanny in a way that uh the feywild is

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uncanny it defies description and

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explanation

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but it was a

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roughly dog-sized uh marsupial that was

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native to

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the island of tasmania and was

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at the time of european settlement just

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a major feature of the forests there

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and when europeans settled it they

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brought with them the kinds of domestic

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animals that they knew to be helpful for

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setting up a life

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and so

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the tasmanian tiger with its frankly

283
00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:41,120
huge gape

284
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:44,320
was an obvious target for

285
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,959
uh mythologizing it became the sort of

286
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,839
big bad wolf of of tasmania and it

287
00:10:46,959 --> 00:10:52,079
became responsible uh although

288
00:10:49,839 --> 00:10:54,320
it became responsible in myth at least

289
00:10:52,079 --> 00:10:56,160
for the the loss that farmers

290
00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,079
experienced of their

291
00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,000
uh their sheep and i i don't think we

292
00:10:58,079 --> 00:11:02,079
had cow of their sheep like every sheep

293
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,160
that got killed was the result of a

294
00:11:02,079 --> 00:11:05,760
thylacine attack so there was this huge

295
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,800
concerted effort

296
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,519
to

297
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,920
eliminate the thylacine from tasmania

298
00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:15,519
and most experts agree it worked

299
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:17,519
not every but most

300
00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:21,040
the last one was named benjamin and he

301
00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:23,680
died in the hobart zoo in tasmania in

302
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,680
1936.

303
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:28,320
but the way that people talk about the

304
00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:30,320
tasmanian tiger is exactly the same as

305
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:34,000
the way people talk about monsters with

306
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,920
this weird mix of both fear and love

307
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,160
it has a devoted

308
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,880
i don't want to say fan base

309
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:43,120
i do want to say fan base

310
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,959
there's a huge i've i've read at least

311
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,279
three books claiming that it is still

312
00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:50,000
alive somewhere out there in the wilds

313
00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:52,639
of tasmania um living in america we have

314
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,519
bigfoot we have sasquatch that's our guy

315
00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:57,360
and in tasmania it's the thylacine

316
00:11:55,519 --> 00:11:59,120
so i've written the thylacine as a fae

317
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:03,600
creature it had to be

318
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:05,839
with the bizarre mix of both charm and

319
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,240
fear effect so it has the same frightful

320
00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:11,040
presence that you would find in a dragon

321
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,120
and the same enchanting call that you

322
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,880
would find in a siren

323
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,800
because i wanted to get at that like we

324
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,360
were scared of this thing

325
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,160
uh just until we realized that we loved

326
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,920
it um and there's a weird kind of

327
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,720
contrast and a weird kind of

328
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:29,440
dissimilarity and and discontinuity

329
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,760
duality yeah between the way we talked

330
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,720
about it uh and and what ended up

331
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,320
happening

332
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,440
cool i was i was going to say like when

333
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:40,399
you do these these animals do you add in

334
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:42,480
like fantastical elements

335
00:12:40,399 --> 00:12:44,240
or do you try and keep it quote unquote

336
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,399
mundane but the fact that you've given

337
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,600
it a charm and fear it war is i think

338
00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:48,399
queer

339
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,320
yeah

340
00:12:48,399 --> 00:12:52,480
yeah and it was kind of at issue like

341
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,480
how do we even do this book because i

342
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,040
didn't want to just give you a hundred

343
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,120
more beasts to put in your in your book

344
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,360
because that would be disproportionately

345
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,480
serving the druids in my audience

346
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,800
um

347
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,800
i also wanted to be able to point out

348
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,800
the the vera similitude here and walk

349
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,200
the line between real and fantastic so

350
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,920
we've decided to just do both um you'll

351
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,440
find a stat block for for these animals

352
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,880
on the one page and then on the right

353
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,519
hand page we'll have

354
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:22,000
or on the facing page we'll have the

355
00:13:19,519 --> 00:13:24,240
fantastical stat block so i've just kind

356
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,639
of juiced it a little bit for it to be

357
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,720
competitive in a world where magic is a

358
00:13:26,639 --> 00:13:30,720
selective pressure something that could

359
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,320
stand alongside the monstrosities and

360
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,880
the aberrations and the things that you

361
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,839
find roaming around d and d so i've done

362
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,199
both

363
00:13:35,839 --> 00:13:40,480
oh amazing amazing so you've done i know

364
00:13:39,199 --> 00:13:41,839
you did you've done the book of

365
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,040
extinction right which is what currently

366
00:13:41,839 --> 00:13:45,120
three

367
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,959
the three monsters you've monsters so i

368
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,720
feel bad saying that to him now yeah and

369
00:13:46,959 --> 00:13:52,320
we can talk about why we use the word

370
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:54,959
monster because i have an opinion

371
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,240
but yeah i'm calling them monsters okay

372
00:13:54,959 --> 00:13:58,959
okay and then obviously we've got making

373
00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,160
a monster as well obviously that we've

374
00:13:58,959 --> 00:14:01,600
talked about previously i just wanted to

375
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,880
know if there's what have you learned

376
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,600
from

377
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,519
doing this kind of unique take on

378
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,199
homebrew because obviously most homebrew

379
00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:11,519
is either

380
00:14:09,199 --> 00:14:14,240
trying to make something that is in the

381
00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:16,880
real world that we know of or it's it's

382
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,839
a creature of pure imagination or

383
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,959
fiction

384
00:14:17,839 --> 00:14:23,279
yeah and these these kind of creatures

385
00:14:20,959 --> 00:14:25,199
these extinct creatures kind of exist in

386
00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:27,279
this liminal space between those two

387
00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:28,560
states that they they did exist at one

388
00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:30,560
point and with the physical things you

389
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,399
could touch and stroke

390
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,920
but then now they don't and they they

391
00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:35,360
are now unfortunately

392
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,199
fiction almost

393
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,839
yeah their story isn't progressing which

394
00:14:37,199 --> 00:14:41,680
i think is why one of the reasons that

395
00:14:39,839 --> 00:14:43,440
writing them as monsters is particularly

396
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,720
appropriate but i think the most

397
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,959
surprising thing that i've learned from

398
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,160
this process is that it's already

399
00:14:46,959 --> 00:14:50,639
happened

400
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,800
i'm not the first one to do this and

401
00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:54,800
that's why i said at the top of the

402
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,320
interview that it's part of the core of

403
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,880
what d is

404
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,120
and i think there are two instances that

405
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:03,600
i can point to explicitly for where this

406
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,519
happens uh and they are the dire wolf

407
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,279
and the cave bear

408
00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:09,040
so first of all

409
00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:10,399
you daniel i mean you've you've been

410
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,000
running games and you've been talking to

411
00:15:10,399 --> 00:15:13,680
people who make this what is and i'm

412
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,720
genuinely curious what does the word

413
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,320
dire mean to you as a prefix first when

414
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,920
you stick it in front of

415
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,040
uh another another another noun um

416
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,880
like

417
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:28,320
the bigger badder version

418
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,519
imagine the thing

419
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,040
like add 50 more size maybe make it more

420
00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,199
spiky

421
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,360
and that'll do it yeah

422
00:15:35,199 --> 00:15:38,210
like dial the contrast down on the color

423
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,440
scheme

424
00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:40,639
[Music]

425
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,920
just so it's like a bit darker and

426
00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:42,800
grayer and then yeah and then you're

427
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,600
there

428
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,440
yep

429
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,279
yeah and that's it that's

430
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,079
basically what it is so

431
00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:52,000
i resisted the urge i thought making

432
00:15:50,079 --> 00:15:55,040
just creatures that were extinct in the

433
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,519
holocene so somewhere in the last couple

434
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,399
usually in the last couple hundred years

435
00:15:57,519 --> 00:15:59,920
i thought that was going to be the

436
00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:01,759
thrust of the book and then i started

437
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,680
digging up these little bits of what d

438
00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:04,959
and d has inherited from natural history

439
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,720
in the past

440
00:16:04,959 --> 00:16:09,519
and most of them hinge on the idea of

441
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:12,000
that dire creature and that comes to us

442
00:16:09,519 --> 00:16:15,519
from the phenomenon of pleistocene

443
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,680
megafauna so if you look at the previous

444
00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:19,360
geological era the one that is before

445
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:23,360
the one we're in now

446
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:25,440
animals tended to be bigger and i mean a

447
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,360
lot bigger

448
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,000
so not just like 150 percent we're

449
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,519
talking like 250 percent but at least um

450
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,680
we had uh

451
00:16:31,519 --> 00:16:36,480
uh i just i just got a piece back from

452
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:39,199
my artist about the glyptodon which was

453
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,839
a mammal with basically an armadillo the

454
00:16:39,199 --> 00:16:43,519
size of a volkswagen we had a cheetah

455
00:16:41,839 --> 00:16:44,800
fully twice as large as the one you'll

456
00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:47,440
find now

457
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,880
we had a giant ground sloth the size of

458
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,320
an elephant

459
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:54,480
uh everything else oh yeah oh yeah we

460
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:57,040
have what i uh the project took a

461
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,639
strange turn when i had to add a dire

462
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,399
kangaroo

463
00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:02,959
wow amazing

464
00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:05,839
so yeah there um when

465
00:17:02,959 --> 00:17:09,120
d says dire whatever

466
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:11,679
it is inheriting the idea of pleistocene

467
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:15,039
megafauna which really came around in

468
00:17:11,679 --> 00:17:18,319
the 17 to 1800s when we started digging

469
00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:20,480
up bones of old extinct things and being

470
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,400
able to sort of write that down and

471
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,000
transmit that information in a way that

472
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,919
permitted the uh

473
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,600
the historical journal

474
00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:29,840
so the original direwolf and now i'm

475
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,520
going to mispronounce latin was

476
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,320
an asean

477
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:37,520
an extinct pleistocene megaphone wolf

478
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,960
um so really the word dire means exactly

479
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,160
what you would expect it would bigger

480
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,919
hairier darker probably bonier um and

481
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,760
those uh

482
00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:47,200
that was just the way of the world

483
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,280
before

484
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,360
back back during the the pleistocene era

485
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,440
so we have all of these

486
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,280
remnants of of giant animals that we

487
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,600
just sort of that just sort of became a

488
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,360
part of the way

489
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,520
fantasy was written so everything in

490
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,200
appendix n a lot of it

491
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,559
appeared a lot of that fiction that

492
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:10,240
inspired d d appeared during this period

493
00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:11,760
uh the 1800s or or was inheriting ideas

494
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,880
that appeared during you know the late

495
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,559
17th early 1800s that were generated as

496
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,799
part of

497
00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:21,760
this kind of wave of natural history i

498
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:23,679
know for example that that is the era in

499
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,559
which

500
00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:28,799
lovecraft grew up

501
00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:31,039
and at a certain point i think lovecraft

502
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:33,760
had it right that at a certain point

503
00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:36,240
sheer size is enough

504
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,600
to reconceptualize a human's place in

505
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,480
the food chain

506
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,720
from predator to prey and in lovecraft's

507
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,720
case it was perhaps to paramecium that

508
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,120
we became creatures so comparatively

509
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,640
small that we were beneath the notice of

510
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:50,160
the food chain entirely and to

511
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,480
comprehend that would be to drive you

512
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,480
mad

513
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,400
so that's that's what dire means that's

514
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,000
that's why extinction is baked into this

515
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,760
and i did mention the cave bear because

516
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,520
i've just learned that that is in the

517
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,760
back of the book it's a little green box

518
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,360
text that says uh if you want to use a

519
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,360
cave bear add

520
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,360
uh add 60 feet of dark vision to the

521
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:11,919
polar bear stat block which weirdly

522
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:14,240
means that cave bears can swim

523
00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:15,679
so i don't know

524
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,760
i don't know that i agree there i've

525
00:19:15,679 --> 00:19:19,679
rewritten the cave bear to my my

526
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,679
purposes but cave bears were the fulcrum

527
00:19:19,679 --> 00:19:23,360
where archaeology turned from mythology

528
00:19:21,679 --> 00:19:25,280
to history

529
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:27,600
there are and you you may you might know

530
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,600
a couple there were these caves all over

531
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,000
europe that were known as dragon's cave

532
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,520
or dragon's lair or dragon's hole and

533
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,720
often in those caves you would find

534
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:39,600
piles and piles of cave bear bones uh

535
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:42,960
and as late as 1672 there's a famous

536
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:45,360
engraving by pj hayne that uh

537
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,280
give that draws cave bare bones and just

538
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:49,520
calls them dragon bones and it looks

539
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,679
exactly like what you would find saint

540
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,039
george stabbing with a spear like that's

541
00:19:51,679 --> 00:19:55,280
the skull that

542
00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:56,559
that you would picture if you if you

543
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,440
ripped it out

544
00:19:56,559 --> 00:20:02,720
so yeah and it took us a while uh it

545
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,880
wasn't until 1794 that um johann

546
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,280
christian rosenmueller a german

547
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,919
anatomist was the first one to give it

548
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,120
the name ursuspalius or literally cave

549
00:20:09,919 --> 00:20:13,600
bear

550
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,200
so the the the legacy of extinction is

551
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,000
all over

552
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,280
the the monster manual and it's all over

553
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,960
the way that

554
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:24,240
heroic fantasy is thought about in

555
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,320
general insofar as j.r.r tolkien is kind

556
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,000
of the godfather of d d and heroic

557
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,480
fantasy in general

558
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,720
his idea of history was that it was

559
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,200
always progressing downward

560
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,039
lesser echoes of the past from less cool

561
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,360
and less magic

562
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:41,760
or rather from great and awesome to less

563
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:44,480
cool and less magic as we go on

564
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:47,200
and it's uh it's echoed by

565
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,120
the opinion of of natural historians of

566
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,840
his time so alfred russell wallace who

567
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:52,240
is

568
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:55,039
a contemporary of darwin

569
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,120
wrote in the geographical distribution

570
00:20:55,039 --> 00:20:59,120
of animals 1876.

571
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:02,159
yeah i'm giving footnotes i'm sorry the

572
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:03,919
gda yeah i'm familiar with it yeah how

573
00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:05,520
are you really no yeah

574
00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:06,640
oh okay

575
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,370
just trying to sound like i know what

576
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,120
i'm talking about

577
00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:10,380
[Laughter]

578
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,559
hi and welcome to the show

579
00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:14,240
[Laughter]

580
00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:16,559
he said we live in a zoologically

581
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,200
impoverished world from which all of the

582
00:21:16,559 --> 00:21:22,159
hugest and fiercest and strangest forms

583
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,400
of life have recently disappeared

584
00:21:22,159 --> 00:21:26,640
the natural history was was echoing that

585
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:30,799
idea of less cool and less magic as we

586
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:33,280
go on and d is in a in a very real way

587
00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:36,240
reaching back toward a more epic and

588
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:39,919
more dangerous and more magical past a

589
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,440
giant low saturation probably spikier

590
00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:43,679
higher past

591
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,559
there's two things i want to talk about

592
00:21:43,679 --> 00:21:46,880
after

593
00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,799
all of that information one is

594
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,720
i'm petrified by the thoughts of dire

595
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:52,240
kangaroos because

596
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,640
because regular kangaroos are like

597
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:58,559
shredded af or at least

598
00:21:54,640 --> 00:22:01,360
like it's it's for real

599
00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:03,520
eight feet tall and jacked yeah like

600
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:06,720
they're gonna they're like a diet

601
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,320
kangaroo i got god forbid like whoa

602
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,720
he's gonna be picturing him three feet

603
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,840
higher and proportionately broader yeah

604
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:15,440
and uh brachycephalic like a bulldog

605
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,440
shorter face

606
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,600
and that's what you've got

607
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:22,720
geez louise that okay that's nightmare

608
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,720
fuel uh for sure um

609
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,080
and then um also the other reason the

610
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,000
other thing i wanted to say is this is

611
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,880
why i love having you on the show is

612
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,559
because for me personally you you give

613
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,760
me another dimension

614
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:35,360
of the books

615
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,440
and we did that on the on the last

616
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:39,919
episode where we talked i think about

617
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,000
like the mummy uh the monster in the

618
00:22:39,919 --> 00:22:44,000
monster manual the mummy and on the face

619
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,799
of that it's just like well that's like

620
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,520
the brendan fraser film which is great

621
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:53,120
um but then you know you you you kind of

622
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:56,159
are like yes but down low look like

623
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:58,240
ever so slightly more deeper

624
00:22:56,159 --> 00:22:59,679
and it reveals like it gives you so much

625
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,120
more context in the same way now we're

626
00:22:59,679 --> 00:23:03,120
talking about these diet creatures that

627
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:05,120
on the face of it to me it just like oh

628
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:07,039
yeah world of warcraft taught me that's

629
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:09,039
just a harder version and that's where

630
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:11,120
the the end of my knowledge lies now

631
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:12,960
it's like well no wait

632
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:15,520
there's more

633
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,000
and it can be both because d does need

634
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,919
to have a mechanism by which

635
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,720
things can get more

636
00:23:19,919 --> 00:23:23,600
dangerous because monsters don't level

637
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,679
up

638
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,280
uh when you polymorph you trade your

639
00:23:25,679 --> 00:23:29,280
character sheet for a stat block and the

640
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,360
stat block doesn't improve so it had to

641
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,400
create kind of these pokemon evolution

642
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,360
chains

643
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,600
of of progressively badder monsters

644
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:40,720
uh i had to write out the hierarchy of

645
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,190
bears from from bound brown or from

646
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,880
black bear up to cave bear

647
00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:46,880
[Laughter]

648
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:50,080
but yeah in that case it's it's sort of

649
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:52,400
reflecting the idea that uh you know

650
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,360
it's it's using game design to reflect a

651
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,400
reality of the world that it inherited

652
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,559
we talked about it a couple times

653
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,480
already about i mean dinosaurs as you

654
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:02,720
you opened the episode with when people

655
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,400
talk about extinct animals

656
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,640
a lot of people are like

657
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,279
t-rexes are cool and jurassic park's a

658
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,320
thing and this is now like you know that

659
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:11,760
that is it

660
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,799
and so of course for better and for

661
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,039
worse

662
00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:18,080
both the standard monster manual and of

663
00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:20,640
the expanded books as well have several

664
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,640
creatures tagged dinosaur essentially

665
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,640
beasts but they are i think by their

666
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:28,559
original names as well right yep there's

667
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,799
a t-rex there's a plesiosaur yeah uh

668
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:34,080
yeah triceratops yeah tricep

669
00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:36,080
tyrannosaurus rex velociraptor yeah um

670
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,799
so yeah they've all got them in there

671
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,240
like verbatim to the to the the words

672
00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:41,520
that people would know them pretty much

673
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,039
yeah so i was going to say like what

674
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,679
what are your have you do you ever look

675
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:45,840
at

676
00:24:43,679 --> 00:24:47,120
those stat blocks for you know for

677
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,000
inspiration when you were looking at

678
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:52,320
yours or have you got any uh hot takes

679
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,159
on their interpretation of extinct

680
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,000
creatures

681
00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:57,919
uh by and large i left it alone i was

682
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,320
trying to do things that didn't already

683
00:24:57,919 --> 00:25:01,840
exist in the book i didn't want to just

684
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,159
rehash what was there but there were a

685
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,400
couple instances in which my work

686
00:25:04,159 --> 00:25:07,840
overlapped with what's there i straight

687
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,440
up took the mammoth like we're

688
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,720
reprinting the mammoth because i have a

689
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,240
point to make

690
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,799
about how it's the mona lisa of

691
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,880
extinction the hot take i think my

692
00:25:14,799 --> 00:25:18,320
favorite hot take about uh d and d's

693
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,039
dinosaurs is that it got the

694
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,559
velociraptor right where jurassic park

695
00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:25,440
got it wrong

696
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:28,000
in the monster manual they are small

697
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,720
they're small beasts tiny beasts in fact

698
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,880
oh tiny yeah rather my bad they are they

699
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,679
are the size of a chicken which is

700
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:38,400
consistent with the fossils that we dug

701
00:25:35,679 --> 00:25:42,640
up the reason that we know them as the

702
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:44,400
six foot long door opening dinosaurs

703
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,720
that jurassic park gave us is because

704
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,640
they needed to put a dude in the suit

705
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,760
and they couldn't do it

706
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,760
when it was that small

707
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,159
like you're kidding velociraptors are

708
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,400
tiny no no i know velociraptors i've

709
00:25:56,159 --> 00:25:59,600
seen the movie yeah yeah they're

710
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,679
clanging around in the kitchen

711
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,159
downstairs and yeah yeah yeah and in

712
00:26:01,679 --> 00:26:06,080
fact d d got it right where jurassic

713
00:26:04,159 --> 00:26:08,000
park got it wrong so props to you

714
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,440
monster manual

715
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,679
that's good the next time anyone

716
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,600
criticizes dnd for anything right or

717
00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:15,200
wrongly i'm gonna go yeah but

718
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,240
but

719
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,400
they've got chicken sized

720
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,440
and that means

721
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,440
everything else is fine

722
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,960
okay i didn't know that i mean i've

723
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:28,960
probably looked at it before but it

724
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,120
hasn't ever clicked in my head uh until

725
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,320
i look at it right now it's a time it's

726
00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:33,520
easy to miss

727
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,000
yeah

728
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,279
a lot of writing beasts like that is and

729
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,600
a lot of writing

730
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:41,120
that is is like finding the tiny tiny

731
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,480
little piece of the stat block to

732
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,720
enshrine

733
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,799
uh the detail about like when we were

734
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,240
talking about the giant ground sloth the

735
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:49,600
thing the size of an elephant i gave it

736
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,760
a burrow speed

737
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,240
um because some ground sloths in its

738
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,840
genus were known to dig burrows that we

739
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,240
found after the fact

740
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,240
so instead of like taking 25 or 50 words

741
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,880
to tell that story i just put comma

742
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,320
burrow 15 feet and now you have to deal

743
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,520
with that as a dm and a player but i

744
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,039
mean i love

745
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,520
burrow speeds as well so we're going to

746
00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:13,600
go back to brass tacks dnd now but yeah

747
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,080
like uh what's the land shark known as

748
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,919
in uh the uh

749
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,440
yes yeah like that is great to just like

750
00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:21,360
smash through if they're in a mine

751
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,840
abandoned mine and it just dives through

752
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,360
the cave wall and it just keeps going

753
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,120
underground and stuff the players can't

754
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:29,120
chase it is

755
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:31,440
reconceptualizing your place in the food

756
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,039
chain yeah

757
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,440
yeah sharks aren't scary because they

758
00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:38,000
live in the wet bit

759
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,320
and we're very i don't go to the wet bit

760
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,480
and so i'm fine but the bullet is a

761
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,320
shark that lives on the dry bit

762
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,559
now everything is different but we live

763
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,840
on the dry bit lucas

764
00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:49,840
that's my bit

765
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,960
i did i did do in my the last the last

766
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,000
chapter last arc of my homebrew campaign

767
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,200
was

768
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,600
themed as your classic land before time

769
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,700
an island that nobody's been to for oh

770
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,120
yeah thousands of years and so tasmania

771
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:11,360
[Laughter]

772
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:13,919
or mauritius where we found the dodo

773
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,200
like or the the last resting place of

774
00:28:13,919 --> 00:28:17,290
the great oc like you're in great

775
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,480
company as far as natural history goes

776
00:28:17,290 --> 00:28:19,440
[Laughter]

777
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,840
um

778
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,919
unfortunately it was all trivialized by

779
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,120
my players having a cubic gate so

780
00:28:23,919 --> 00:28:27,279
they're just like teleporting everywhere

781
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:29,360
and just teleported through the jungle

782
00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:31,279
so all the jungle jungle monsters were

783
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:33,840
just like

784
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:36,799
so the closest we got was the

785
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,880
essentially the glass of water shaking

786
00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:41,200
uh the water in the glass shaking uh

787
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,840
rhythmically but then they never needed

788
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,080
to explore or go further so that that's

789
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:49,360
as close as i got to bringing them in uh

790
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:52,159
i was as a half queueing up a huge epic

791
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:55,360
dinosaur fight and uh

792
00:28:52,159 --> 00:28:56,159
it wasn't it wasn't to be on this land

793
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,000
before

794
00:28:56,159 --> 00:29:01,200
there is something kind of tragic about

795
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,080
that i i know it's i know it's fine but

796
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,640
like

797
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,000
huge like come on guys

798
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,360
it's like hulk at the end of thor

799
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,360
ragnarok big monster

800
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,840
fight the

801
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,840
to fight dinosaurs

802
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,080
i know now that i find normal boring

803
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,840
creatures but anyway yeah

804
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,520
well and that that kind of catharsis was

805
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,159
a part of what i wanted to do with

806
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,840
extinction was to to sort of be able to

807
00:29:24,159 --> 00:29:28,080
bring you into contact with these things

808
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,080
that i knew that you were gonna like um

809
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,399
i have a giant beaver in the book it's a

810
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,559
beaver six feet high that's just it's

811
00:29:32,399 --> 00:29:37,200
there for no other reason then i know

812
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:39,919
you're gonna love it yeah

813
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,080
you gonna i mean if you don't spec a a

814
00:29:39,919 --> 00:29:44,080
dire kangaroo i will but please tell me

815
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,480
it's in please tell me it's on the it's

816
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,080
on the cards oh yeah it's it's one of

817
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,480
the ones i've actually finished i've got

818
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,320
an art order out for it uh

819
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,520
i've asked for three things i've asked

820
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:58,080
for a giant uh short faced

821
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,790
and i want it to be full-on cold [ __ ]

822
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,039
and a guy

823
00:29:58,790 --> 00:30:04,399
[Laughter]

824
00:30:01,039 --> 00:30:06,840
just a just a mean left hook yeah

825
00:30:04,399 --> 00:30:09,760
shredded jacked up

826
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:12,000
yeah just a kangaroo punching a guy's

827
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,760
lights out yeah large beast unaligned

828
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,640
challenge rating two

829
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,279
i've just thought of a great rug pool

830
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,720
is having that jurassic park telling

831
00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:23,120
your players as the dm you've got a

832
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,600
glass of water it's rhythmically the

833
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,120
water is is shaking another place like

834
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,720
oh yeah yeah i know this we've seen this

835
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,399
trade a hundred times before and then

836
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,840
out through the bushes

837
00:30:30,399 --> 00:30:35,440
hops a

838
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,840
and they're expecting a t-rex no no

839
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,840
not today

840
00:30:38,799 --> 00:30:41,280
you're wrong

841
00:30:39,919 --> 00:30:43,600
this is way worse

842
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,630
[Laughter]

843
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,360
and it's angry

844
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:48,960
[Laughter]

845
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,799
oh great that's that's a free all the

846
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,919
listeners that's a freebie please take a

847
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:54,919
news use that in your campaign

848
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,159
[Music]

849
00:31:02,750 --> 00:31:08,799
[Music]

850
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,039
another thing i wanted to talk about

851
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:12,799
in regards to

852
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:14,320
building a dnd

853
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:16,399
campaign and you mentioned them earlier

854
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,720
on like extinction events extinction

855
00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:19,760
level events as hollywood would like to

856
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,519
call it

857
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,440
i think you mentioned we're at number

858
00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:25,440
six or something

859
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,840
yeah that's that's the idea that is

860
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:31,120
being put forth in the scientific

861
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,600
discourse now um i should say that uh

862
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,480
geologists recognize five based on their

863
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,000
work

864
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000
and then you know we're making the

865
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,080
argument that we are in the sixth

866
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,840
currently in it yeah yeah i hope it

867
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,080
won't be one of those things where

868
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,080
people look back and go oh yeah those

869
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,519
guys were like definitely in number six

870
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,039
and they just couldn't see it for

871
00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:51,360
whatever reason because that'll be sad

872
00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:52,240
i'd rather at least know we're in it

873
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,799
yeah

874
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,919
yeah me too

875
00:31:54,799 --> 00:32:00,320
kind of writing a book about it

876
00:31:57,919 --> 00:32:02,320
well i was gonna say like have you ever

877
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,880
dealt with or thought about those

878
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:08,799
extinction events or epochs in

879
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,480
a a campaign uh usually the trope is

880
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:11,600
there's gonna be one if you don't stop

881
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,120
it players

882
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,480
sometimes it's not even that big it's

883
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,840
it's just

884
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,440
you know the scope is a lot smaller but

885
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,760
i was just wondering on your take on

886
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,799
extension level events because maybe

887
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,399
there's a unique approach to it or kind

888
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:25,519
of those little things that people don't

889
00:32:24,399 --> 00:32:27,919
often think about yeah the end of the

890
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:30,399
world okay hollywood's taught me that

891
00:32:27,919 --> 00:32:32,720
it's a desolate wasteland and there's

892
00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:33,919
robots that stamp on skulls but like

893
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,080
there's probably a little bit more

894
00:32:33,919 --> 00:32:37,679
nuance to it than just

895
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,000
fallout new vegas

896
00:32:37,679 --> 00:32:42,399
right yeah that's really interesting i

897
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,960
haven't structured this book such that

898
00:32:42,399 --> 00:32:48,000
it's a campaign set in a

899
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,679
post-extinction event world so i'm i'd

900
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,440
be reaching to write this i think i

901
00:32:49,679 --> 00:32:53,760
think it'd be on the spot

902
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,519
but i will say that there is at least

903
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,799
one story

904
00:32:55,519 --> 00:32:59,039
let me let me tell you the thing i know

905
00:32:56,799 --> 00:33:00,720
i can tell you there is at least one

906
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:03,200
story of a creature that

907
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,440
survived one extinction event only to

908
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,360
die in the in this one

909
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,480
actually let me let me answer the

910
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,559
question that you're actually asking

911
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,240
which is how do you use this in a d

912
00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:14,320
campaign

913
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,440
i have at least one example of a stone

914
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,240
punk setting okay there's a book by

915
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,159
atlas games called plain gia which was

916
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,120
used a lot of the same monsters that i'm

917
00:33:22,159 --> 00:33:24,799
using

918
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,799
but built them as part of a setting that

919
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:28,720
was sort of pre-history where everything

920
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:30,799
was new and vital and you were sort of

921
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,440
living in the in the beginning the top

922
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:36,559
of the spiral that that tolkien pictured

923
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,679
um so you could go hard and just do it

924
00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:40,559
that way

925
00:33:37,679 --> 00:33:43,679
the tomb of annihilation adventure line

926
00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:46,080
in dnd owes a lot to that kind of work

927
00:33:43,679 --> 00:33:47,840
the jungles of chult are basically

928
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,200
the land before time

929
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,720
that's why they're filled with monsters

930
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,960
so i think the tools are out there for

931
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,960
you to do this already

932
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,919
as uh and sort of engage with with

933
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,440
extinction events as a narrative device

934
00:33:57,919 --> 00:34:01,519
yeah i'm just yeah this is this is what

935
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,200
i'm doing the show it's been

936
00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:05,120
a break from recording for a while and i

937
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,799
have missed it because it makes me all

938
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,800
giddy about thinking

939
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:10,720
because i am not even ignorant i never

940
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,399
you know it would be very cool to have a

941
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:14,560
i'm only thinking i'm only realizing now

942
00:34:12,399 --> 00:34:17,359
is that it would be cool to have

943
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,839
those archaeologists and geologists

944
00:34:17,359 --> 00:34:21,520
being and like digging up bones and then

945
00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:24,000
it just gradually being this slow

946
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,800
realization that a there was

947
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,440
an extinction event prior and b

948
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,679
much like we are and now perhaps there's

949
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,760
going to be another one soon and to have

950
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,839
that be the driving

951
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,079
force for the player characters to be

952
00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:39,839
like let's find out what it was that's

953
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,000
you know and you could you could still

954
00:34:39,839 --> 00:34:43,760
have your classic sword and board

955
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,320
fantasy of like well we've heard there's

956
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,639
some ruins that were old and maybe they

957
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,240
were pre the last event so won't you go

958
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,639
in there and creatures have moved in

959
00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:54,800
yada yada fight your way to the end uh

960
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:57,440
but the reward is like yes there might

961
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,960
be some mechanical ward but the rule is

962
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,800
some ancient information that you then

963
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,880
take back to the university and they go

964
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,880
oh yeah this is this has got that last

965
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,200
bit of the cipher or that last bit of

966
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,560
translation that we needed to to work

967
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,839
out what's what's coming up next and

968
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,920
then you can kind of

969
00:35:09,839 --> 00:35:13,760
turn that campaign

970
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,800
into a well it's there's going to be

971
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,680
another

972
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,359
meteorite or climate shift or something

973
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,000
and how the and how the players can help

974
00:35:19,359 --> 00:35:23,920
to avoid that or perhaps depending on

975
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,839
your point of view and encourage it on

976
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,680
if they're part of their like life is a

977
00:35:25,839 --> 00:35:30,000
cycle and

978
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:32,560
rebirth and all that other stuff if you

979
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,720
subscribe to that kind of uh ideology

980
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,200
yeah yeah that'd be great and there's

981
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:39,040
precedent for it i think those caves

982
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,120
full of bare bones

983
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:44,079
would uh or bear bare bones

984
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,000
[Laughter]

985
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,920
got to give you a good place to start

986
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,079
yeah yeah for sure

987
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,000
and i i do i'm kind of in love with the

988
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:55,040
idea of

989
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,480
not having a bbeg like that doesn't have

990
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,200
to be a single

991
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,240
entity it can just be a force of nature

992
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,200
that is just

993
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:03,440
almost

994
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,359
unreasonable it's um you know

995
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,119
unforgiving there's not much you can do

996
00:36:05,359 --> 00:36:11,359
in some ways it is inevitable it's just

997
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:12,000
can you postpone it maybe for another

998
00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:13,440
that is yeah

999
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,359
cosmic horror

1000
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,960
uh and it's something i i toyed with

1001
00:36:15,359 --> 00:36:19,200
this for book of extinction too because

1002
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,640
i i thought about personifying

1003
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,320
extinction and then making that

1004
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,079
something that you could kill

1005
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,240
and i'm not sure i'm still not sure

1006
00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:28,880
that's the best way to go about it if i

1007
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,839
did i would uh i would do something with

1008
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,839
the

1009
00:36:29,839 --> 00:36:34,240
kytrid fungus

1010
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:37,520
which is a a virulent strain of fungus

1011
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:39,200
that is worldwide leading amphibians and

1012
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,880
frogs to being

1013
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,800
the the group of animals with the

1014
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,880
dubious distinction of going extinct the

1015
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,960
most quickly oh

1016
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,040
yeah it's it it interferes with their

1017
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,640
ability to absorb moisture through their

1018
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,800
or absorb electrolytes through their

1019
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,880
skin and essentially gives them a heart

1020
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,560
attack and it's impossible to find it's

1021
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,560
impossible to stop

1022
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,960
at least as far as we know now and there

1023
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,079
are some very dedicated people working

1024
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,480
on it

1025
00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:06,640
yeah if i were to personify extinction

1026
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,200
it would be in that line but i'm still

1027
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,880
not sure i'm gonna do it because i i

1028
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,640
think it would be

1029
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,720
more in keeping with what i'm trying to

1030
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,000
do to just give you the tools to grapple

1031
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:18,480
with this and let you come to your own

1032
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,040
answers and not have something as

1033
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,680
as fairy tale like as just being able to

1034
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:26,000
stab it with a sword no i i i would

1035
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:29,200
agree with that i think it would be very

1036
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,760
easy to like accidentally trivialize

1037
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,760
it in a way and then reduce it quite

1038
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,599
reductive to bring it this

1039
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,960
a very real issue into something which

1040
00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:39,350
is just like

1041
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,000
i'm an evil guy in my castle

1042
00:37:39,350 --> 00:37:43,760
[Music]

1043
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,440
and and then there's the the cognitive

1044
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:50,920
dissonance of like i i killed extinction

1045
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,920
i killed them

1046
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:57,440
[Laughter]

1047
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,119
yeah that'll be a tricky one

1048
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,839
and we're going to get

1049
00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:04,560
a real meta which i guess is saying

1050
00:38:01,839 --> 00:38:05,599
something considering the last 40 or so

1051
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,760
minutes

1052
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:09,920
and only because in my preparation for

1053
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,200
the episode we at the time of recording

1054
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,520
we are

1055
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,440
still pre um

1056
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:18,720
the new book uh monsters of the

1057
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:22,079
multiverse coming out which looking at

1058
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:23,119
my chosen online dnd platform of choice

1059
00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:24,960
actually but by the time this is

1060
00:38:23,119 --> 00:38:26,180
released it will be wizards branded so

1061
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,760
dearly beyond

1062
00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:30,400
[Laughter]

1063
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,480
safe and safe now they are

1064
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,440
basically deprecating

1065
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,640
or that is to say making extinct wink

1066
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,640
roll credits um

1067
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,240
uh two of the old books fellows guide to

1068
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,480
monsters and one kindness team of photos

1069
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:48,800
and their stat blocks within so my my

1070
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,680
thought process here was like in a way

1071
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,400
this

1072
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,000
incessant march of time is making

1073
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,200
content and monsters and in a way you

1074
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,800
could even fold this into your campaign

1075
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,880
like the monsters you might have used

1076
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,480
last session and now

1077
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,200
for all intents and purposes

1078
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,040
you know in in canon not a thing anymore

1079
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,560
those you know they don't encourage you

1080
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,040
to use those stat blocks and use new

1081
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,200
stat blocks so i just wanted like

1082
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:15,599
i know it's a slightly tenuous link but

1083
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,800
that's welcome to the show again um

1084
00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:18,560
no i think there's something there

1085
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,920
because what what

1086
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,599
i think the best comparison to make

1087
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,760
there would be the comparison between

1088
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:26,240
species i made the decision in writing

1089
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,920
book of extinction to use linnaeus's

1090
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:30,320
taxonomy for every creature i wrote

1091
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,160
about so genus species name in the case

1092
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,560
of the giant short-faced kangaroo it's

1093
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,160
procoptidon de la golia

1094
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,440
in the case of

1095
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:41,359
the tasmanian tiger it's thylacinous

1096
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,280
cyanocephalus

1097
00:39:41,359 --> 00:39:45,280
but that has introduced a layer of

1098
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,760
difficulty to this in that there's more

1099
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,320
than one giant ground sloth there is

1100
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,480
more than one heath hen

1101
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,760
which is you know an extinct bird from

1102
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,040
the northeast coast of of the

1103
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,320
us

1104
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,480
so i think in this case what we're

1105
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,680
looking at is maybe a deprecation of the

1106
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,200
species or maybe sort of a loss of

1107
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,040
i would think of it as a loss of

1108
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:10,240
biodiversity where

1109
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:12,000
members of the genus are being removed

1110
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,520
at the species level

1111
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,280
and we we do talk when we're looking at

1112
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,359
extinction events about whether that

1113
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,480
extinction happens at the species level

1114
00:40:17,359 --> 00:40:20,160
whether we're

1115
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,880
just losing different variations of the

1116
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,400
same thing or at the genus level

1117
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,440
in which case we're losing

1118
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,040
whole

1119
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:30,400
i don't want to say families but whole

1120
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:32,160
large groups of life propositions

1121
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,400
that were around before

1122
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,079
so yeah there's a weird parallel here

1123
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,800
and it's funny because i've still got

1124
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:39,280
the

1125
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,040
the search window open for dinosaurs and

1126
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,119
in a some beautiful

1127
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,440
twist of fate

1128
00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:46,800
the majority are marked now as

1129
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,119
legacy here

1130
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,480
which is really it's kind of like

1131
00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:53,040
oh it's like

1132
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,560
a grim humor to that so i think they get

1133
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,599
replaced with like kidding i think they

1134
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,599
get replaced with updated stat blocks

1135
00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:00,880
but we're doing some rebalancing but

1136
00:40:59,599 --> 00:41:02,960
yeah

1137
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,800
things that worked in the pleistocene do

1138
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,880
not work in the holocene

1139
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,880
things that worked in

1140
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,400
you know things that worked before

1141
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,160
the extinction event that is

1142
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,160
mordenkainen's

1143
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,240
uh more or rather monsters of the

1144
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,800
multiverse yes

1145
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:20,640
no longer work in the current edition or

1146
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,440
geological era it's like a oh it

1147
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,119
imitates life uh happening before my

1148
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,270
very eyes as we were recording this

1149
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:28,319
thing

1150
00:41:26,270 --> 00:41:30,240
[Laughter]

1151
00:41:28,319 --> 00:41:31,040
uh yeah that's great i'm really glad

1152
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,720
that

1153
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,079
these dinosaurs are marked as legacy for

1154
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:35,119
this content that i'm producing now i'm

1155
00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:36,960
very happy

1156
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:39,760
i've been able to do that

1157
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,520
oh no we're making them extinct again

1158
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,800
yeah yeah well they've already done it

1159
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,800
once guys come on yeah

1160
00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:47,599
and then um

1161
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,440
we're gonna we're gonna move away from

1162
00:41:47,599 --> 00:41:51,599
monsters just for a second before we we

1163
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,440
talk out the show because of course one

1164
00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:56,000
way to consider

1165
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,960
extinction in a in a dnd campaign would

1166
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,240
be

1167
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,520
you could

1168
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:04,160
describe as a tpk as in the players

1169
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,560
rather than the monsters uh or the the

1170
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,880
characters not the players god i'm not

1171
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,520
definitely not playing their characters

1172
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,839
um going extinct and yeah i just wanted

1173
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,119
to what again a bit like how

1174
00:42:13,839 --> 00:42:17,280
maybe you've got a unique take on how

1175
00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:19,599
extinction events could be interpreted

1176
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,400
in your campaign in any given campaign

1177
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:25,280
uh maybe there's another take on

1178
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:27,280
a total party kill and how that might

1179
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,680
have ramifications

1180
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,760
that i haven't thought of i think at the

1181
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:36,000
level at which book of extinction

1182
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:38,240
operates a tpk would be

1183
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,870
not to sound callous

1184
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:41,119
minor

1185
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:42,560
[Laughter]

1186
00:42:41,119 --> 00:42:46,400
i don't think that

1187
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,599
it doesn't compare on the level of of an

1188
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,280
extinction event because we haven't

1189
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:50,880
reached species level and we certainly

1190
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,119
haven't reached genus level like there's

1191
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,880
going to be another tiefling warlock

1192
00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:56,880
there's going to be another half elf

1193
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,000
bard it's just going to happen i was

1194
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,920
just gonna say you've given me the back

1195
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:03,119
of the box quote which is

1196
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:05,839
lucas thinks tpk's a trivial or minor i

1197
00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:08,000
think so uh just to just uh just to be

1198
00:43:05,839 --> 00:43:10,560
the clickbait so yeah thank you

1199
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,800
oh great

1200
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,319
take that put that on a context and oh

1201
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,319
yeah let them come for me

1202
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,040
no but it's uh i think the point with

1203
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,599
extinction is that it is it is bigger

1204
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,920
than any one of us at this point and and

1205
00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:28,400
in a way that's that's very d and d as

1206
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,800
well like this is an asymmetrical

1207
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,680
heroic fantasy game in which strength

1208
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:37,280
comes through diversity and extinction

1209
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:39,280
events represent the loss of diversity

1210
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,720
whole life propositions or ways of

1211
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,040
looking at the world that we will never

1212
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:44,800
have access to again and i certainly

1213
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,200
don't mean to trivialize

1214
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:50,240
the idea that every person every player

1215
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:52,319
character represents a way of looking at

1216
00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:54,240
the world and a way of moving through it

1217
00:43:52,319 --> 00:43:56,400
and solving these challenges that is on

1218
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:59,440
its own incredibly valuable

1219
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:02,560
if you can start there and then imagine

1220
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:05,760
that we made extinct the very last

1221
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:08,640
tiefling warlock to ever be in the game

1222
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,480
then you would find i think the kind of

1223
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,599
impact that

1224
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,359
the things in the book are meant to have

1225
00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:16,880
yes thank you

1226
00:44:15,359 --> 00:44:18,000
is there uh

1227
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,640
anything else you want to talk about

1228
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,480
that we might not have got around to yet

1229
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,960
let me give you two reasons to be

1230
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,359
excited about this uh that are that are

1231
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,440
very much in the spirit of of d because

1232
00:44:27,359 --> 00:44:30,480
i want to tell you the two instances in

1233
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,560
which

1234
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,520
i had to do very little writing to

1235
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,599
translate the animal to the monster

1236
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,839
um the first is the passenger pigeon it

1237
00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:42,079
lived in flocks of

1238
00:44:39,839 --> 00:44:44,160
billions literal billions on the north

1239
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:46,640
american continent for those listening i

1240
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,920
am a shocked face i've got shocked you

1241
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,880
face right now because i was expecting

1242
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,720
like thousands and okay

1243
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,760
not a chance they would block out the

1244
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:57,040
sun for days at a time

1245
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,040
uh

1246
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,640
this is uh this is a creature whose life

1247
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,599
proposition was to basically have

1248
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,560
satellites everywhere they could know

1249
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:05,680
exactly

1250
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,319
in which

1251
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,760
chestnut forest or oak forest in the in

1252
00:45:08,319 --> 00:45:11,119
the americas

1253
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,720
mass fruiting was happening where there

1254
00:45:11,119 --> 00:45:15,040
were loads and loads of acorns to just

1255
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:18,240
get for free and they could then fly

1256
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,200
there immediately it's a phenomenal bird

1257
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,280
that was

1258
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,960
totally at odds with the way in which we

1259
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,920
live our lives now like we couldn't

1260
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,640
resurrect a biological storm and bring

1261
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,800
it back and have it co-exist with the

1262
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,640
level of population that's on that's in

1263
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,599
the united states now

1264
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,079
but

1265
00:45:33,599 --> 00:45:38,000
it is a perfect

1266
00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:41,119
reconstruction of what

1267
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:44,480
d d's swarm mechanic is trying to do

1268
00:45:41,119 --> 00:45:46,640
no single one of these animals

1269
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,640
represents the entire decision-making

1270
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,000
force of the swarm as a whole

1271
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,240
and uh

1272
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,760
one of the reasons they went extinct

1273
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:55,520
so suddenly was that they're only

1274
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,040
comfortable reproducing when they're

1275
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,000
surrounded by hundreds of their closest

1276
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,359
friends

1277
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,480
so oh

1278
00:45:59,359 --> 00:46:05,119
in a way yeah again

1279
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,920
in a way the passenger pigeon was what

1280
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:08,240
is

1281
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,800
a swarm it's the it's the only maybe the

1282
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:13,520
only swarm to have ever truly existed so

1283
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,200
writing that one was a slam dunk it's

1284
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:18,240
already in the book

1285
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:21,760
um the other example that that d gave me

1286
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:23,839
was of on death there is one creature in

1287
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,920
the book that did i didn't expect to be

1288
00:46:23,839 --> 00:46:28,160
at the top of the cr range and it's the

1289
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,359
perennian ibex it's a small mountain

1290
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,520
goat used to live in the mountains

1291
00:46:29,359 --> 00:46:33,200
between spain and france

1292
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,839
and it is the only

1293
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,200
animal to have to have gone extinct

1294
00:46:35,839 --> 00:46:39,760
twice

1295
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,359
wow the last perennial ibex was given

1296
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,800
the name celia

1297
00:46:41,359 --> 00:46:44,160
her movements were tracked closely

1298
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,599
enough to know that she was the last of

1299
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,000
her species

1300
00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:49,920
and bef one summer a sample of tissue

1301
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,920
was taken from her left ear the

1302
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,839
following summer she was found

1303
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,680
crushed to death under a fallen branch

1304
00:46:55,839 --> 00:46:59,680
sad and this is like the tragic moment

1305
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,400
but what happened uh

1306
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,640
the

1307
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,599
the research team was able to take that

1308
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,640
sample

1309
00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:09,119
and implant uh and and do some gene

1310
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:12,560
editing and implanting and

1311
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:14,440
clone a perennial ibex over the course

1312
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,720
of 10 years

1313
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,560
439 embryos were created from the

1314
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:20,960
original tissue sample

1315
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,359
of those only 57 were able to be

1316
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,880
implanted in a host

1317
00:47:23,359 --> 00:47:26,960
surrogate mother

1318
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,160
of those only seven resulted in

1319
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,040
pregnancies

1320
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,079
and of those only one resulted in a live

1321
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,800
birth

1322
00:47:32,079 --> 00:47:36,960
and that died after several minutes due

1323
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,720
to difficulties breathing from malformed

1324
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,440
lungs

1325
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:44,000
which to me

1326
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:46,000
is exactly what undeath looks like

1327
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,280
jeez yeah so

1328
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:52,480
i was given by history itself

1329
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,230
the story of an undead lich

1330
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,920
that happens to be a goat

1331
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:58,640
[Laughter]

1332
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:01,520
and uh very quickly it ranked its way

1333
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,440
all the way up to a cr-20 cr-22 if you

1334
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,839
encounter it in its layer

1335
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:09,280
so d

1336
00:48:04,839 --> 00:48:11,680
d uh d d just just gave me the way of

1337
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,680
talking about this uh in a way that's

1338
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,640
cool and interesting and useful to have

1339
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:20,079
a good time rather than inherent or

1340
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:22,079
rather than only tragic and depressing

1341
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:23,920
um and i want you to be able to put this

1342
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:25,760
in your game and talk about it and and

1343
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,839
interact with these stories and tell

1344
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:30,000
them in a way that that's able to get at

1345
00:48:27,839 --> 00:48:32,960
the details and sticks in your mind in

1346
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:36,800
the way only d's real time storytelling

1347
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:38,880
can so i was very grateful to see and i

1348
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,400
was i'm really excited to continue doing

1349
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,440
this work for the other

1350
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:46,160
100 or so monsters on my list to be able

1351
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,640
to give people a way of of talking about

1352
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,160
extinction of experiencing it of staying

1353
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,680
with the trouble

1354
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:55,520
that doesn't drive them to despair um

1355
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,800
yeah that's such

1356
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,839
a great

1357
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:02,000
thing i've lost the superlatives to

1358
00:48:59,839 --> 00:49:03,839
describe uh i'm just because all i'm

1359
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,319
thinking of is like

1360
00:49:03,839 --> 00:49:07,760
any given dnd game and there's all

1361
00:49:06,319 --> 00:49:10,240
players they're happy having a fun time

1362
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,920
having a fight with some bum with some

1363
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:13,520
with some creatures

1364
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,800
and that's where we learn the session

1365
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,920
the dm stands up and says hey guys you

1366
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,240
know those creatures you were just

1367
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,000
fighting they're actually based on

1368
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:23,520
this and here's the cool story about how

1369
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,040
we tried to clone this extinct creek

1370
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,880
this is this extinct goat and if you

1371
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,119
want to find out more go and do some

1372
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,520
research and then we'll be like that's a

1373
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:32,640
sick story and i want to learn more and

1374
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,839
it's such a

1375
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,400
unique

1376
00:49:33,839 --> 00:49:38,640
and interesting way to to have those

1377
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,800
experiences as you've just said yeah or

1378
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,400
better yet turn it to the other page

1379
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,760
like i want you to have this book in

1380
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,119
your hand and turn it around and be like

1381
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,340
yeah that thing you just bought this is

1382
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:48,000
it her name was celia

1383
00:49:46,340 --> 00:49:49,839
[Laughter]

1384
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,160
and this is like i've written the story

1385
00:49:49,839 --> 00:49:55,520
for you i want you to hear this

1386
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,880
amazing amazing uh yeah so wow this is

1387
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,760
why i love having

1388
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,839
you on the show is is to to to elevate

1389
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,920
thinking critically from just how do you

1390
00:50:01,839 --> 00:50:05,780
feel about hit dice well i could take

1391
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,359
him or leave him really to

1392
00:50:05,780 --> 00:50:08,800
[Laughter]

1393
00:50:07,359 --> 00:50:11,440
you know do you roll for stats or not

1394
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,960
like to to another a

1395
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,640
i won't say another level uh but another

1396
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,960
dimension different a different uh point

1397
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,720
of view uh which is which is fantastic

1398
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,240
well thanks dan that's that's really

1399
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:22,240
encouraging i'm glad it's working for

1400
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,599
you yeah absolutely that's what i'm here

1401
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,119
to do

1402
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:28,480
uh is there well is there anything you

1403
00:50:25,119 --> 00:50:30,000
would like to uh promote or in any way

1404
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,040
other people can can support you in this

1405
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,200
endeavor yeah so book of extinction is

1406
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,920
a part of it is out right now you can go

1407
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,559
and get it at

1408
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,800
cintilla.studio

1409
00:50:38,559 --> 00:50:44,079
extinction it's also on drive through

1410
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:46,400
rpg and the may chan press website

1411
00:50:44,079 --> 00:50:48,400
you can have that preview as a pay what

1412
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,760
you want download and anything that you

1413
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,920
pay for it

1414
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,400
i'm not going to keep i'm partnering

1415
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,160
with the center for biological diversity

1416
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,880
which is an advocacy organization based

1417
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:01,359
in the u.s that advocates for

1418
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,880
endangered species and habitats

1419
00:51:01,359 --> 00:51:04,000
and everything that we raise through the

1420
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,480
preview up until the time of the

1421
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:08,640
kickstarter is going to go to them 100

1422
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,800
and they're going to turn that around uh

1423
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,440
and use that in their work again i think

1424
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:16,079
the best antidote for despair is action

1425
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,599
i didn't want to give you things that uh

1426
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:19,119
things that challenge your hope and

1427
00:51:17,599 --> 00:51:21,280
things that challenge your sense of

1428
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:22,640
tragedy without giving you a way to give

1429
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,400
directly into it so that's what the

1430
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,640
preview is meant to do

1431
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:29,359
it comes with the thylacine the great

1432
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,960
awk and the passenger pigeon

1433
00:51:29,359 --> 00:51:32,400
as we've talked about and you can put

1434
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,440
those in your game right now and the

1435
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:37,440
full book is coming to kickstarter oh

1436
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,359
okay cool well perhaps i'll have to have

1437
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,440
you on at that time again and then we

1438
00:51:39,359 --> 00:51:43,359
can i think it'll be a good time yeah

1439
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:46,400
i'd love to drop in and give the wrap up

1440
00:51:43,359 --> 00:51:48,319
uh by then i will have god help me

1441
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,520
finish a hundred of these monsters and

1442
00:51:48,319 --> 00:51:51,760
then i'll be able to tell you like how

1443
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,920
did it go and how much did we how much

1444
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,920
were we able to donate yeah and what did

1445
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,760
people actually really enjoy about this

1446
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,119
piece so yeah i'd love to come back if

1447
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,839
you'll have me yeah

1448
00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:03,119
absolutely so yes as as usual all the

1449
00:52:01,839 --> 00:52:05,760
links will be in the episode description

1450
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:07,200
i would very very much encourage lucas

1451
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,640
is exceptionally hardworking and

1452
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,800
exceptionally knowledgeable so please go

1453
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,480
and check out the stuff and even more so

1454
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,960
it's all for a good cause so like why

1455
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,559
would you not

1456
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,720
so the the only thing that's have to say

1457
00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:20,640
for me is one final thank you so much

1458
00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:23,200
for joining us today thank you for

1459
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,720
having me it's always a pleasure

1460
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,800
really glad to be here and i'm really

1461
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:28,880
glad of being been able to take the time

1462
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,200
to talk through this uh in a long form

1463
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,040
way it's it's a lot to unpack and thanks

1464
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,559
for being a good audience about it no

1465
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,599
horace wants to give me some stuff to

1466
00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:37,920
think about

1467
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:39,280
oh good perfect see i've provided some

1468
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,480
value as well which makes which made my

1469
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,960
day

1470
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,920
thank you to everyone for listening at

1471
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:44,960
home

1472
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,040
please

1473
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,040
uh review

1474
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,720
like and share if you like what you've

1475
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,200
heard today you can go and check out our

1476
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:55,520
monster episode which i'll link in the

1477
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,359
description which we covered a whole

1478
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,720
different side different as i said at

1479
00:52:57,359 --> 00:53:00,400
the start of the show the other side of

1480
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:01,599
the same coin so if you liked today's

1481
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,960
content please go and check that one out

1482
00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:07,359
that was also very very good otherwise

1483
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,960
thank you all for listening and good

1484
00:53:07,359 --> 00:53:10,559
night

1485
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,520
and now it's time for the patreon shout

1486
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:14,720
outs

1487
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:17,599
thank you to robert hartley dm for viva

1488
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:19,680
la dirt league and writer on the dnd the

1489
00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:21,280
logic web series

1490
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:24,079
i would encourage everybody to check him

1491
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:25,040
out at robert hartley gm on twitter and

1492
00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:27,280
twitch

1493
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:29,760
thank you to optional rule a two-time

1494
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:32,559
guest of the show and a very insightful

1495
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,839
and knowledgeable source of information

1496
00:53:32,559 --> 00:53:36,839
please check them out at

1497
00:53:33,839 --> 00:53:36,839
www.optionall.com

1498
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,559
huge huge huge thank you to a great

1499
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:45,040
friend of the show matthew perkins who's

1500
00:53:42,559 --> 00:53:47,359
out there making hilarious and

1501
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:49,119
educational dungeons and dragons content

1502
00:53:47,359 --> 00:53:50,880
please go and check out his stuff at

1503
00:53:49,119 --> 00:53:53,280
matthewperkins.net where you can find

1504
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,880
links to all of his socials and all of

1505
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,559
his content including his own patreon

1506
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,319
which i would very much encourage you to

1507
00:53:56,559 --> 00:54:01,200
check out

1508
00:53:58,319 --> 00:54:03,280
thank you to matt street at mpstreet88

1509
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,800
on twitter for supporting the show if

1510
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,400
you need support running your personal

1511
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:09,599
or business schedule head to

1512
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:11,359
virtualtimehustle.com or on instagram to

1513
00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:13,440
make that difference between should do

1514
00:54:11,359 --> 00:54:15,200
and done boss it better with support

1515
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:17,520
from cat who will help you get back that

1516
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,960
essential time you've been searching for

1517
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,880
if you would like to support what we do

1518
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:23,599
and get four shout outs a month head

1519
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,119
over to patreon.com thinking critically

1520
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:29,080
or you can just buy me a coffee at

1521
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:36,100
kofi.com thinking critically

1522
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:56,319
[Music]