Education

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welcome thinkers to season 3 episode 9

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of thinking critically today's topic is

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education

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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so today i'm joined by sam chung known

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online as the educational dm thank you

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ever so much for joining us today sam

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can you tell us a little bit about

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yourself

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thank you for having me download well i

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have been a teacher for

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probably 23 24 years now i teach maths

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to

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currently 13 to 18 year olds but most my

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career it's been from

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10 11 to to 18

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so in the uk that's secondary school

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but i've uh i started playing d d

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when my dad bought me a box set

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from a car boot sale now if you're not

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from the uk you probably won't know what

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a car beat sale is but uh there are

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these wonderful just

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junk sales anyway he bought me a set

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when i was i think i was just turned 10

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and uh and i never really looked back i

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just had a a love oh well i had a love

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fantasy before that

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and then just only the last few years

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maybe

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five years or so i'm i've started

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playing with my students uh dungeon

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dragons

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yeah that's me awesome uh that's i've

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not

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all the guests i've had uh finding it in

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a car boot is what i haven't heard yet

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so i love that's that's great uh and you

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didn't just buy it from amazon like me

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like a chump uh aside i do

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in the 80s this was back in the 80s yeah

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amazon didn't exist

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it wasn't around um

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and my dad was just a great lover of

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these car boots elsa just wander around

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for hours and poke you know and it was

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fun for us kids yeah

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and he'd give us a little bit of money

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uh but he he knew i loved fancy and he

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bought this for me and and

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my older brother played a little bit of

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d so

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so he he said yes this is this will be

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good for him

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but then proceeded not to help me

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do anything at all learn about the game

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just let me let me play it so i just was

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had to teach myself completely from

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scratch for

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you know for firstly friends from church

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but also friends from school and yeah

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just run things and it was complete

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chaos but we had fun and that's that's

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all that matters really indeed indeed

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well talking of teaching yourself

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today's topic is education so what does

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that mean to you in the d d framework

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well so as i said i started playing

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dungeons and dragons with my students

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about five years ago actually it was one

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of the students who suggested yeah why

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don't we play dnd and i thought why

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haven't i done this before

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and then

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after a year or so i was running a

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campaign with these um these students

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and

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all of a sudden

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you know everything for in me as an

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educator suddenly started realizing

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it's hitting so many of the kind of

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educational points

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not just in the academic arena but

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something that's always interested me

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more than just i mean i love teaching

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maths i really do but um i would say i'm

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more of a school master than a maths

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teacher

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so i love the past oral side so i've

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worked in a couple of boarding schools

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and i you know i was a deputy house

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master and a boarding house for a while

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and just seeing

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you know

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something that always catches my eye

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when i read the news is things like what

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are the skills that companies want that

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teach schools aren't teaching

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things like critical thinking

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communication all of these kind of

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things

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you know uh

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innovation and you know

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creativity all of these things that

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i actually do think that schools do

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teach them but

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sometimes they they get put in little

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boxes in schools and and made labeled

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you we are now teaching creativity or

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something like that um

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but certainly i think critical thinking

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is is a massive one and morality

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actually that's that was actually my

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first article was i wrote about kind of

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moral values uh and ethics

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so these things

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were being

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learnt

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not so much taught but learned through

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playing dnd

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so i'll give you uh

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the the big example which really just

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hit it home for me the uh i was running

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through

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one of the adventurous camp and

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adventurous league uh settings

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and they had to climb a hill so a mound

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boulders

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and i said what are you going to do to

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the party and they say oh we are we're

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just going to climb

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and

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they so i got them to roll and the

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wizard who had particularly low strength

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fell down

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and was

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hurt himself and i said what are you

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guys going to do now it's like well

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we're going to wait

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and

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so he rolled again and he got up to

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about the halfway point and then he

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rolled a second time to get to the rest

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of the way and he fell down again and he

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was bleeding out at the bottom and

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eventually so and and i asked the rest

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of the party he's unconscious bleeding

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out what are you gonna do

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and one of the the the kind of more

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experienced players then just said

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okay guys hold on to my rope i'm gonna

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chimmy down i'm gonna heal him stick a

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health potion him and uh

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yeah and and then i'm gonna help him

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come back out

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and after the session i said

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guys what could we have done bit

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differently and there was silence and

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then i was thinking okay have a look in

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your backpacks have a look at your

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character sheets

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like ah rope

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grappling hooks we just thought that was

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you know that was flavor tips or that

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was just there for kind of extra design

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and

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i mean these these boys were generally

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really avid video game players yeah and

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i was thinking why don't they kind of

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have this critical yeah this is what i

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would say is critical thinking why don't

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they have this this critical thinking to

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to come up with these ideas

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and i realized actually um so for

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example i know that when i play a

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computer game

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i love role-playing games i don't get

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enough time to play them um but

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generally there's there's an item that

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you pick up specifically for a task yes

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so these are the old-school

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role-playing games so there might be a

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kind of a magic key that fits a specific

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door or

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you pick up a rope and then there's a

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specific kind of wall that you have to

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use the rope to climb etcetera

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but this stuff was already in their

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backpacks and this stuff is general and

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in dnd there's there's just so much

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stuff that you can have that is

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and it and then it becomes about your

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invention and your use of that

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but the other thing about role-playing

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games on yeah are

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in computer games

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and i i have to confess i'm very guilty

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of this if you come across a difficult

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challenge

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you have a go at it a couple of times

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and then what do you do if you if you

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get really frustrated about it what do

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you do

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nowadays you just go and look it up

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online

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right

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except with the indie you you can't do

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that yeah

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and i can't remember who it was i think

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it was my favorite matt colville who

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said

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that if you take 10

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dungeons and dragons parties to get into

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a castle

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they will come up with 10 different ways

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so some of them might try and

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bribe the guard some of them might kind

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of try to hide in a cart of hay some of

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them will try and fly over the wall or

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wait until night and creep over the wall

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some might actually dig under the wall

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but they'll come up with all sorts of

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different ways so even if you're playing

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the same module

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you can't go up and look online and say

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you know this is the right way of doing

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it because there is no right way you

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know and and that comes comes back to

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this idea of critical thinking and

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innovation and

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learning on your feed and not you know

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and i think that that's so powerful

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and then the consequence of the

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potential failure um i love this idea of

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failing forward as well yeah

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but so even

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without knowing it you're learning about

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things um you're i mean this is this is

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what makes the difference between

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experienced players and non-experienced

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players that they they have these tools

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in their belts

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but they're also learning other things

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they're learning about as i said uh you

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know morality uh and by that i'm talking

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about

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just not kind of not doing the

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the thing that might upset your your

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party members stealing from your party

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members or

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yeah just playing that character that

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yeah upset everybody uh realizing that

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the treasure is not the end i mean

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are you gonna say are you gonna say it's

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the friends that we made along the way

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is that what you're getting yeah i'm

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gonna say that i really am it's terrible

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but it's it's true

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and and and this is an education this is

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an education not just in those kind of

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academic qualities this is an education

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in life

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and i think that's that's incredibly

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powerful and

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and since i've then uh started becoming

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you know in some ways evangelistic about

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this i i just rave out this to everyone

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i've discovered all of these people and

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places online that are

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are now using dnd in in tremendous ways

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so

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i'm in contact with an ethics professor

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who is using

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dnd in her

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ethics classes

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you know the the game to grow guys are

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doing uh both education and psychology

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classes and and that's that's incredibly

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powerful that you can use it in

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psychology i've i've been talking to

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people who are using it for autistic

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kids

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00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,000
and people who are in prisons and and

286
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:06,240
seeing some great results about kind of

287
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,320
that and i can just imagine

288
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,720
you know these these people who are in

289
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,680
prison and uh you know

290
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,560
anyway

291
00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:15,839
you should go on yeah no yeah i i

292
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,160
totally get what you mean and thank you

293
00:10:15,839 --> 00:10:19,920
so much for that it's your passion

294
00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,760
shines through so it's lovely to hear

295
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,680
and i mean about to get about to get my

296
00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,200
notebook out because you're covering so

297
00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:26,880
many things there that i'm absolutely

298
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,000
going to forget that i had i

299
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,680
had something to add to that so i mean

300
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,120
my first and easiest thought on that

301
00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:35,040
then is do you think

302
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,560
i mean i think i know the answer i think

303
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,800
way back when the game was designed in

304
00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:40,480
the 70s and 80s they never it was never

305
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,240
conceived as a

306
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,480
vehicle for learning

307
00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,079
do you think nowadays that maybe that

308
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,959
focus has shifted a little bit i mean i

309
00:10:46,079 --> 00:10:48,320
know

310
00:10:46,959 --> 00:10:49,680
you've got to learn the rules so there's

311
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,760
another in any game there's an element

312
00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:53,440
of learning the the constraints like

313
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,640
even with you know video game rpgs

314
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,959
there's a level of that but what we're

315
00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,440
talking about and what i really want to

316
00:10:56,959 --> 00:11:00,640
talk about more is this learning

317
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,839
i don't want to use meta learning

318
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,079
because they're not blurring the

319
00:11:01,839 --> 00:11:05,760
definition of the word meta in in this

320
00:11:04,079 --> 00:11:07,920
context but um

321
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:11,279
you know learning about the ethics about

322
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,399
morals um about comprehension and and

323
00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:14,880
critical thinking all that kind of stuff

324
00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:16,399
so do you think it's it's a conscious

325
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,959
part of the design in these later

326
00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:21,279
editions at all that would be an outcome

327
00:11:18,959 --> 00:11:23,360
an output of playing the game

328
00:11:21,279 --> 00:11:25,680
well i mean interestingly in the in the

329
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,000
90s i remember seeing an advert for uh

330
00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:30,320
in the 90s and it i i saw that it was

331
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,399
actually being marketed as something

332
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,399
that uh would stretch the brightest

333
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:36,959
students so i think they've always been

334
00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:38,560
aware of that and to be honest you i

335
00:11:36,959 --> 00:11:40,839
mean so dungeons and dragons as you

336
00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:42,320
probably know came out of strategic

337
00:11:40,839 --> 00:11:43,120
games roots

338
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,360
so

339
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,920
being aware of that they they certainly

340
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,000
push towards boys yeah you know who who

341
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,560
are interested in nerdy boys who are

342
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,240
interested in kind of strategy

343
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:56,079
and certainly i i've known quite a few

344
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,079
people who are you know play d in a

345
00:11:56,079 --> 00:12:00,320
strategic way i think what people are

346
00:11:58,079 --> 00:12:02,880
discovering now is

347
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,279
you know and and i think that streamers

348
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,120
like critical roles you know and so many

349
00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:09,279
other streams are discovering you know

350
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,399
how it can draw on the role playing and

351
00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:12,639
the drama

352
00:12:10,399 --> 00:12:15,360
and people are discovering from that

353
00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:17,839
because you're encouraging role play

354
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,240
you are encouraging social skills so

355
00:12:17,839 --> 00:12:23,920
this is why it's useful for people with

356
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,920
autism but also again nerdy boys or kind

357
00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,839
of shy girls yeah i mean that's a bit of

358
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,519
a generalization right you know i know

359
00:12:27,839 --> 00:12:32,959
but you know

360
00:12:29,519 --> 00:12:33,839
and i've seen it in my uh my games um

361
00:12:32,959 --> 00:12:35,680
actually

362
00:12:33,839 --> 00:12:39,120
with one of my adult games we had a

363
00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:41,120
young chap he was a little bit shy and

364
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,680
the rest of us were experienced gamers

365
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,560
and our other experienced role players

366
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:46,880
and

367
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:49,839
it just so happened

368
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,760
that we came across a young dragon

369
00:12:49,839 --> 00:12:53,680
and he was the only one who could speak

370
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,880
draconic

371
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:58,399
and so as a dm i said the rest of you

372
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,160
you can't say anything

373
00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:01,920
there's young chap who's quite shy is

374
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,680
it's gonna you know communicate with

375
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,680
this white dragon would you say and he

376
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,480
kind of armed an odd and and came out

377
00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:08,560
with

378
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:12,560
come with us and we can help find you a

379
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:14,240
bigger place to live and to kill goblins

380
00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:17,600
and you know and it came through i mean

381
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:20,320
i got him to roll a fairly easy uh tc

382
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,880
yeah and the look on his face and just

383
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:26,000
after that he he opened up and so much

384
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,279
just because of that success and

385
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,440
i think

386
00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:31,920
i think some people are now

387
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,839
consciously working on those things so

388
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,880
people who are applying role-playing

389
00:13:33,839 --> 00:13:37,600
games

390
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:40,560
are working on those consciously uh so

391
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,079
i'm i'm talking to a few game designers

392
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:44,560
who who are doing that

393
00:13:42,079 --> 00:13:48,480
uh one guy who's

394
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:50,720
working specifically on uh working you

395
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,600
know with the deaf community mm-hmm so i

396
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,120
don't know whether you know the

397
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:58,320
innsbriles um and that hatchling uh dm

398
00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,720
riches their a's um he designed the game

399
00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,240
where you have to communicate with uh

400
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,680
with sign language oh yeah that actually

401
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,920
rings a bell actually yeah i have heard

402
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:07,680
about that on the grapevine yeah and and

403
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,399
he works with youth in that sense and

404
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:12,880
he's um but there are other other gamers

405
00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:13,680
who i mean uh for example i think it's

406
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,639
the

407
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:18,720
rpg wonder home which is a particularly

408
00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:21,040
yeah it's specifically designed to be

409
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:24,079
not there's there's no combat in it at

410
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:26,639
all and again i think that's aimed

411
00:14:24,079 --> 00:14:27,760
primarily at young people and children

412
00:14:26,639 --> 00:14:30,079
who

413
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,800
who who you know learning the joys of

414
00:14:30,079 --> 00:14:35,199
discovering the world and i think that

415
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,600
i mean that that might you know

416
00:14:35,199 --> 00:14:40,079
it's not formal education but it is

417
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,760
certainly an education of sorts

418
00:14:40,079 --> 00:14:43,040
and definitely building these things

419
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,680
into the um

420
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,839
the games for for little kids i think

421
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,560
that they they will definitely think

422
00:14:47,839 --> 00:14:52,320
about educational aspects but other than

423
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,720
that i think i just think that there are

424
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,360
so many educational benefits even if

425
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,839
people don't realize it

426
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:03,600
exploration is one of the three pillars

427
00:14:59,839 --> 00:15:06,320
of the uh of dnd and that in itself is

428
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,760
is education i mean yeah when you when

429
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,279
you know people talk about the joys of

430
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:12,480
traveling and since i've come out to

431
00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:14,639
malaysia you know i've had to i i've not

432
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,560
had to but i've loved traveling around

433
00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:18,320
southeast asia and discovering some

434
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,079
amazing places

435
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,680
um and now i can

436
00:15:20,079 --> 00:15:23,680
talk about those experiences and that's

437
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,279
been a real education

438
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,360
the best kind of education is when you

439
00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:29,920
don't even know it's happening

440
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,519
exactly it's just super super fun

441
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,639
a couple of things off the back of that

442
00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:34,320
actually to look back around to what you

443
00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:36,880
were saying earlier on about the um the

444
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,040
climbing up the boulders anecdote

445
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,839
i wanted to say if it makes anyone feel

446
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:45,279
any better my players who all

447
00:15:41,839 --> 00:15:48,240
they tell me they're all adults um

448
00:15:45,279 --> 00:15:50,639
but uh they they routinely forget what's

449
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,320
in their bags i there was just quite a

450
00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:53,920
few points of mirroring like it's kind

451
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,639
of like ageless a lot of these problems

452
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,399
are ageless which i i i'm very fond of

453
00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:00,800
like just being like oh

454
00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:02,160
we did have pythons or pitons in our bag

455
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,839
and we were just trying to you know

456
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,320
climb this cliff why didn't we use those

457
00:16:03,839 --> 00:16:09,360
why did we do some weird like i'll cast

458
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,839
fly on me and you and then the the jury

459
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,040
turns into a bear and it's like a bird a

460
00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:14,480
bear's not going to climb up well

461
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,639
actually some bears are good at climbing

462
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,959
but a bird and climb up and stuff and it

463
00:16:16,639 --> 00:16:20,720
was like you've got like

464
00:16:18,959 --> 00:16:24,399
you're carrying around like 20 pounds of

465
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:26,000
metal like for this express purpose

466
00:16:24,399 --> 00:16:28,240
and and they bought rope they've

467
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,120
everyone comes with like 50 foot of rope

468
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,800
yeah

469
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,880
why don't you send your best climber up

470
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,040
first you know why do you all have to

471
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,680
climb up at the same time

472
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,399
these kind of things it's um it made me

473
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,079
tear my hair out because as i said yeah

474
00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:43,519
actually it was interesting because in

475
00:16:42,079 --> 00:16:44,480
that group

476
00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:46,720
were

477
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,800
i think uh off the top of my head i

478
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,040
think three of the best mathematicians

479
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,279
in the school from different year groups

480
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,360
i mean these were these are kids who are

481
00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:57,279
going to go off to the top universities

482
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,199
and what the asia some of the others

483
00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:00,880
were actually incredibly capable this

484
00:16:59,199 --> 00:17:03,120
there's one who is

485
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,480
one of the top debaters as well and

486
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,880
incredibly

487
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,760
well read and and eloquent

488
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,199
but these guys uh just hadn't thought of

489
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,520
these things yeah

490
00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:16,959
um but i think the more they play the

491
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:19,520
more they will realize that they can do

492
00:17:16,959 --> 00:17:21,439
these things and and i you know i i

493
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,919
think that's yeah you're completely

494
00:17:21,439 --> 00:17:25,839
right yeah it it it goes for adults as

495
00:17:23,919 --> 00:17:27,839
well oh yeah for sure and i think it's

496
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:30,880
very very true

497
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:34,720
and and i you know people often uh joke

498
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:37,280
to me uh you know how do i put on my cv

499
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:40,720
and i think it unfortunately especially

500
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:42,559
in uk and elsewhere it's still got a bit

501
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,880
too much of a nerdy

502
00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:46,640
connotations for for people to to want

503
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,640
to put on their cv

504
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,400
but i don't think it's going to be long

505
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,440
i think within 10 years people are going

506
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,520
to see

507
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:57,039
that it's something to really show off

508
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,960
about and i i really hope to see that

509
00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:00,799
well i'd like to consider myself at the

510
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,880
vanguard of that as i although it's not

511
00:18:00,799 --> 00:18:05,280
on my it's not on my cv or resume for my

512
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,280
american listeners just yet in my my

513
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,520
current employment i

514
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,200
rolled the dice metaphorically during my

515
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,960
interview at the the typical question

516
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,360
you get of you know what kind of what do

517
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,520
you enjoy in your spare time um and i

518
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,520
was like i play a bunch of you know d

519
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,280
and d which is as you

520
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,160
quite put a bit of a

521
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,480
a level of risk there certainly today

522
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,919
in the uk uh and it paid off because one

523
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,840
of the interviewers was like oh yeah i

524
00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:32,160
used to play that in the 80s and bishop

525
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:35,120
bosh and he is now in my game of two

526
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,799
years and then 65. that's brilliant so

527
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:38,559
that was a one of my

528
00:18:36,799 --> 00:18:40,720
few game bits that actually paid off in

529
00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:43,919
the end so

530
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,440
i think as a as a teacher it's less you

531
00:18:43,919 --> 00:18:47,120
know it's less frowned upon because you

532
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,240
get all sorts of different teachers and

533
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:51,760
yes teachers generally uh it's not a

534
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,679
problem if you're a maths teacher then

535
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,240
you can be as nerdy as you are

536
00:18:53,679 --> 00:18:57,360
it's actually positively encouraged to

537
00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,480
be nerdy

538
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:02,799
as a maths teacher but uh yeah so i'm

539
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,760
not afraid to put up my cv

540
00:19:02,799 --> 00:19:05,200
the other thing you mentioned there

541
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,400
about the friends you made along the way

542
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,440
and again this is time back into the

543
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:11,360
ageless thing is i was speaking to to my

544
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,480
players recently and i was like guys i

545
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,919
don't i don't know about you but to me

546
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,280
it feels like you know it's

547
00:19:13,919 --> 00:19:16,799
it's quite long and we're not going to

548
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,000
end for another

549
00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:21,039
two years maybe and i i was more you

550
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,480
know i was worried when i shouldn't have

551
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:23,760
been that i was

552
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,440
not wasting their time but you know

553
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,120
needlessly dragging it out and all of

554
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,440
them were like no no no the journey is

555
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:30,880
what's important we don't like we know

556
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,919
that we know there's an end we trust you

557
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,520
that you know there's there'll be a

558
00:19:31,919 --> 00:19:36,400
payoff at some point that's that will be

559
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,760
rewarding but we're enjoying the crazy

560
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,679
wacky stuff that you're putting in front

561
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,720
of us as we go through so that's don't

562
00:19:39,679 --> 00:19:44,720
you know don't worry about it down there

563
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,720
just continue on what's that oh guys

564
00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:47,840
i mean there is just something to be

565
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,400
said it doesn't matter what you're doing

566
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,960
but just media with uh with other people

567
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,960
and yeah just enjoying food and banter

568
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,600
and everything else so that in itself is

569
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,120
the social aspect is a wonderful kind of

570
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,679
outcome

571
00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:03,120
so i actually i wrote an article just

572
00:20:01,679 --> 00:20:06,000
recently

573
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:07,760
about uh how dungeons and dragons helps

574
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,440
you make friends which

575
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,880
is really yeah i mean that that's

576
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,200
something that i think is is really

577
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,360
interesting because again that's not

578
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,200
what people would think of education you

579
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,799
know it's like you're a teacher it's not

580
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,400
your job to you know to help our

581
00:20:18,799 --> 00:20:21,360
children make friends

582
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,440
um

583
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:25,520
so a few years ago about four years ago

584
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,679
i went to a yeah something called a

585
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:30,400
positive schools conference

586
00:20:27,679 --> 00:20:32,320
and there's a part of me that certainly

587
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,559
is kind of a little bit cynical all this

588
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,240
kind of like well-being and fuzzy stuff

589
00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:38,080
but you know and there's that little

590
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,559
part of me and especially when i'm tired

591
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,240
um but you know the majority of me is

592
00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:44,480
kind of yes this is kind of like let's

593
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,559
see how we can really engage children

594
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,440
you know and and stuff

595
00:20:46,559 --> 00:20:49,760
but

596
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,760
sometimes i'm kind of very

597
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,159
cynical about some of the speakers who

598
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,480
are a little bit kind of very

599
00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:59,600
let's say emotion emotional and emotive

600
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,919
etc but uh the two main speakers were

601
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,720
incredibly impressive there was one one

602
00:21:01,919 --> 00:21:06,960
so the the main takeaway for that for me

603
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,880
was that the main speaker

604
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,880
backed up a lot of her arguments with

605
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,880
kind of her experience but uh you know

606
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,799
she spoke with authority on this and she

607
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,640
also drew on the statistics which always

608
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:18,720
helps me as mathematicians seriously

609
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,760
statistics are always good i'm sure but

610
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,880
yeah

611
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:25,440
the main thing that she said yeah that

612
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,960
has really really stuck with me

613
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,360
is that

614
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,600
the biggest factor in her child's

615
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,960
well-being yeah mental health and

616
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,480
well-being

617
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,280
is their friends

618
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,960
okay the second year but that's not so

619
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,960
so much there's only so much we can do

620
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,039
about that the second is the biggest

621
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,960
thing that a school can do for the their

622
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:48,480
pupils is give them a sense of belonging

623
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,000
and i was working in a boarding house at

624
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,080
the time and i think yes that's

625
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,400
absolutely what we are working for

626
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,000
getting them to be a community and you

627
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,320
know feeling as if they're belonging but

628
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,039
the idea of kind of friendship as being

629
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:03,440
the most important thing for a kind of

630
00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:05,440
the the mental health and well-being of

631
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,440
a child and obviously that has knock-on

632
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,760
effects to adults as well sure and i

633
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,679
think especially during this last

634
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,600
these last two years has been

635
00:22:11,679 --> 00:22:14,640
i think incredibly difficult for a lot

636
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,880
of people

637
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,679
yeah those friendships and that kind of

638
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,760
uh that community has has been difficult

639
00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:23,679
much more difficult with yeah everyone

640
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:27,360
being isolated and you know things like

641
00:22:23,679 --> 00:22:30,080
that yeah no i am i've

642
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:32,320
semi recently been suffering with a few

643
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,080
light mental health issues as as well

644
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,760
and we actually had to cancel dreaming a

645
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,520
game because i was just essentially

646
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,280
written off for the week and a half and

647
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,799
i know that one of my players and

648
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,799
friends he's dealt with something

649
00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:45,200
similar in the past so he was he was

650
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:46,400
helping me kind of work through the

651
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,480
issues

652
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,400
and then near the end i was like you

653
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,240
know you spent a lot of time listening

654
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,400
to me and talking to me so thank you so

655
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,159
much and he was like man you don't

656
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,760
clearly you don't understand like how

657
00:22:56,159 --> 00:22:59,919
much of a rock that you've been as the

658
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,159
dm for like two years you've given us

659
00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:03,679
consistency which is like super

660
00:23:02,159 --> 00:23:05,280
important seems like you've given us

661
00:23:03,679 --> 00:23:08,000
consistent

662
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,080
social interaction for two years you

663
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,480
know one of which was in lockdown seems

664
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,640
like that i i still owe you something so

665
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,760
please don't worry about it i was ah

666
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,120
never really thought of it like

667
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,760
sometimes i you know i approach it like

668
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:21,360
a job almost and it it you know it's

669
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,720
without being paid

670
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,240
but then when you put it like that i was

671
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,480
like wow i didn't realize it was it was

672
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,960
that you know quite important to you

673
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,720
and i think it's very easy to to forget

674
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,880
that especially when i can't see the

675
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,520
wood for the trees it's the dm

676
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:38,559
yeah that's great i think sometimes it's

677
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:40,159
it is really hard when you're dming to

678
00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:42,960
to kind of see

679
00:23:40,159 --> 00:23:44,799
how much they are benefiting and gaining

680
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,520
out of that i think

681
00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:46,559
but

682
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,640
you know i

683
00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:51,039
you know this is why in some ways

684
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,960
sometimes i really miss playing i mean i

685
00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:54,640
gained so much out of dming but i miss

686
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,039
playing as well because then you're part

687
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,120
of the group and i had a brief period a

688
00:23:57,039 --> 00:24:01,440
couple of years ago where we we actually

689
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:04,880
had a i was playing with somebody else

690
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:07,440
and it was it was fun because

691
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,039
we had a again a different group of

692
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,559
people who

693
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,559
uh some of them

694
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:15,279
were very good yeah actually it was i've

695
00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:17,360
got one colleague who is very good at uh

696
00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:19,360
strategizing and i love to your eyes as

697
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,919
well so we would bounce off each other

698
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:24,640
but then there was one week where

699
00:24:21,919 --> 00:24:26,640
we were trying to free some slaves from

700
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,720
a slave wagon

701
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,080
and we found this little kind of area

702
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,640
where we knew that they were going to

703
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,799
camp and we'd set up these traps so and

704
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,039
then it turned into the next week and he

705
00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:38,960
was missing oh no so we'd set up all

706
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:41,039
these traps around and we were going to

707
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,039
kind of uh frighten them and scare them

708
00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:45,840
and then try and tackle the wagon and

709
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:48,000
take the slaves out yeah this narrow

710
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,159
channel that the traps hadn't been set

711
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,840
which set the traps all in the woods all

712
00:24:50,159 --> 00:24:54,320
around

713
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,600
and it just completely went wrong yeah

714
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,600
just my my teammates my party members

715
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,200
just actually they ran into our own

716
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,279
traps oh god

717
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,080
that's as long as it can get

718
00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:05,919
yeah

719
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,840
um but it was just you know those that

720
00:25:05,919 --> 00:25:09,360
kind of thing is just fun we can talk

721
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,760
about it there was i mean there was this

722
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,960
great moment right at the end of so i

723
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,120
ran

724
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,039
with that group i was the first game

725
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:18,159
that i ran was the sun the citadel and i

726
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:19,919
don't know whether you know it but at

727
00:25:18,159 --> 00:25:23,440
the end there's a big bad and there's a

728
00:25:19,919 --> 00:25:25,440
tree and etc but um one of the players

729
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,840
was a kind of

730
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,559
a wild magic

731
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,120
sorcerer and

732
00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:34,159
just the wrong role or rather maybe just

733
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:37,279
the right role yeah and his magic went

734
00:25:34,159 --> 00:25:39,120
wrong and he had a created a fireball

735
00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:41,919
centered on him

736
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:44,000
half the party was unconscious he took

737
00:25:41,919 --> 00:25:45,919
out the big bad guy two of his big

738
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,039
henchmen and took out the tree as well

739
00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:48,640
so there was no

740
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:50,799
worries about the spores from the tree

741
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,880
it just kind of because the fireball

742
00:25:50,799 --> 00:25:55,760
took them all out and that was just such

743
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:58,000
an epic way to finish the game yeah

744
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,320
and we still laugh about it now and

745
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,120
we're actually so i um

746
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,799
i started a shop actually in johor in

747
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,240
keno so i've got a shop manager who's

748
00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:07,919
running that i'm not doing that while

749
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,600
i'm teaching at the same time

750
00:26:07,919 --> 00:26:11,360
but we're thinking about setting up some

751
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,200
kind of um

752
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:14,960
bar area

753
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,640
we're actually going to name the bar

754
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,960
you're thinking about maybe the bar

755
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,880
after this character because he was a a

756
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,520
halfling brewer

757
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,360
wild magic sorcerer yeah so he would

758
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,919
have yeah he actually came to me before

759
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:30,640
the the game and asked me whether yeah

760
00:26:27,919 --> 00:26:32,159
he could have some magic beers you know

761
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,799
i said yeah let's let's work out

762
00:26:32,159 --> 00:26:36,480
something maybe some healing beers or

763
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:38,000
you know and and if you take too many

764
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,679
you'll get drunk and you'll have yeah

765
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,760
concentration issues but yeah you know

766
00:26:39,679 --> 00:26:44,000
and and one that will kind of stave off

767
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,360
exhaustion etc so we'll kind of work

768
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,039
these things out and and that's

769
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,880
wonderfully creative as well which is

770
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:50,640
another learning outcome which is you

771
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,120
know something i'm writing article on

772
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,760
now but you know those those stories are

773
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:58,240
great there's uh there's um

774
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,480
there's a psychologist who talks about d

775
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,520
d in psychology she run called megan

776
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,120
connell i don't know whether you've

777
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,080
heard of her yeah

778
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:09,840
so she runs a youtube channel but she

779
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,440
also runs a clinical group uh d group

780
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,000
with girls

781
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,320
and one thing that she always says that

782
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,159
rings really true for me is that when

783
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,440
you play

784
00:27:18,159 --> 00:27:20,399
you don't

785
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,880
play

786
00:27:20,399 --> 00:27:25,600
as a third person you you don't kind of

787
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,600
say oh my country well you kind of do

788
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,039
say my character is going to do this but

789
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,159
that's you

790
00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:32,799
and then

791
00:27:30,159 --> 00:27:34,480
when you're reminiscing about it

792
00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:36,240
you don't say

793
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,720
do you remember when

794
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,200
my character did this you say do you

795
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:44,080
remember when we did this

796
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,840
yeah so it's even though it's one step

797
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,000
removed

798
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,399
you are still kind of very very much

799
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,799
invested in it it's you doing those

800
00:27:50,399 --> 00:27:54,080
things especially when it gets exciting

801
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,840
it's you

802
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,919
going through the adventures it's you

803
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,399
killing the monsters you

804
00:27:57,919 --> 00:28:03,600
achieving that triumph

805
00:28:00,399 --> 00:28:05,919
and so as a psychologist you you can you

806
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,360
know she she was saying that uh you can

807
00:28:05,919 --> 00:28:10,159
work through

808
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:13,520
the issues that you might have

809
00:28:10,159 --> 00:28:15,360
much more safely but also you are going

810
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,480
yeah and yeah it's a safe environment

811
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,520
because you can pull them out

812
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,320
immediately

813
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,159
but also you've got a slight distance

814
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,399
but you are really invested in that

815
00:28:22,159 --> 00:28:26,720
person so there's a that's a really

816
00:28:24,399 --> 00:28:28,559
interesting dynamic that you are

817
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,960
you've got there and it's

818
00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:33,600
incredibly useful i think

819
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,360
yeah yeah i always say um

820
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,399
actually before that i wanted to pick up

821
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,200
on something we mentioned right at the

822
00:28:36,399 --> 00:28:40,799
beginning that i'm super stoked that you

823
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,080
brought up because it

824
00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:43,440
validated me because i put it in my

825
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,960
notes and i was like well if sam's

826
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,760
saying it then i'm

827
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:50,080
i know what i'm talking about

828
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,880
but it was around like obviously when on

829
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,960
face value when it comes to like

830
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:58,480
sitting at a table playing d d

831
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,159
a lot of it is it seems to be you know

832
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,600
maths and maybe like language

833
00:29:00,159 --> 00:29:04,080
comprehension in terms of like trying to

834
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,240
pass the rules and understand how that

835
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,559
how you know how the spells work and you

836
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,600
can and can't and and the constraints

837
00:29:08,559 --> 00:29:11,919
and the scopes and that kind of stuff

838
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,159
and then of course arithmetic for

839
00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:15,919
working out dc's and acs and plus plus

840
00:29:14,159 --> 00:29:17,840
plus all that kind of modifiers bear in

841
00:29:15,919 --> 00:29:19,120
mind my mental arithmetic is

842
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,080
terrible

843
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,360
so i'm i can't do any of that stuff um

844
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,200
that is what it is and it serves its

845
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,480
purpose um

846
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,760
but i love

847
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,600
that i've got here in my notes critical

848
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,600
thinking and then i called it kind of

849
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,240
abstract thinking around like problem

850
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,159
solving and puzzles and yes that is the

851
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,480
kind of like the hidden layer you were

852
00:29:36,159 --> 00:29:40,399
alluding to earlier on of of

853
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,919
it's a quote-unquote safe space

854
00:29:40,399 --> 00:29:43,039
to train

855
00:29:41,919 --> 00:29:44,960
those

856
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:46,799
skills so i've got my example in my

857
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,440
notes here around like critical thinking

858
00:29:46,799 --> 00:29:51,440
it's but but why does the king want you

859
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,840
to carry out this quest what do they

860
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,960
stand to

861
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,559
benefit like it get you know if you can

862
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,520
get the players to ask those kind of

863
00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:59,440
questions

864
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,440
rather than just you know like what

865
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,720
craft like just blindly follow killed

866
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:06,399
seven wolves okie dokie yes sir

867
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,640
well it does

868
00:30:06,399 --> 00:30:09,840
i think i think it certainly does

869
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,080
teach

870
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,200
a certain i mean

871
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360
with with the

872
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,200
with any deal i think that players

873
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,679
certainly start to learn to be a little

874
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,919
bit more suspicious of people and their

875
00:30:19,679 --> 00:30:23,919
motivations and so it does teach that

876
00:30:21,919 --> 00:30:26,559
element as well so social skills in that

877
00:30:23,919 --> 00:30:28,640
sense but after a little while if you if

878
00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:32,320
you're playing with the same dm

879
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:34,799
every npc is not going to be an evil nbc

880
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,200
yeah even though the worst dm i think is

881
00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:39,600
not going to make every npc is

882
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,279
but certainly makes the the the players

883
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,159
think and question anything that's

884
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:46,640
slightly unusual that's going on it's

885
00:30:44,159 --> 00:30:48,559
like what's going on and then yeah

886
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,120
learning those subtle social skills as

887
00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:53,360
well those social cues

888
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,240
but i think also just learning with one

889
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,440
another

890
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,840
you know to

891
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,919
and this is huge for teamwork

892
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,080
i mean as a teacher actually i don't get

893
00:30:59,919 --> 00:31:02,960
to to do much in the way of teamwork at

894
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,640
all

895
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,559
and discussing around uh table stuff um

896
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:11,200
i mean we we hate meetings so you know

897
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:11,919
that's that's our that's our free time

898
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,440
yeah

899
00:31:11,919 --> 00:31:17,200
but i'm sure that other jobs teamwork is

900
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,279
incredibly important

901
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,279
and i think that that's an educational

902
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:23,440
thing that's that's one of those

903
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:24,480
things that companies want that uh that

904
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,840
schools

905
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,320
uh are not very good at teaching

906
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,000
teamwork yes yeah i actually i actually

907
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,320
think that um

908
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,960
a sport a team sports are incredibly

909
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,960
good for that but dungeon dragons

910
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,200
even though it does appeal to those kind

911
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,600
of kids as well and i think it will you

912
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,840
know given the right game i think anyone

913
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,080
who says oh dungeons dragons is not for

914
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,480
me i i think actually it's because you

915
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,080
haven't found the right game

916
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,399
but i think there's a lot of kids who

917
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,320
are not into sport

918
00:31:52,399 --> 00:31:55,519
and though for those kids who are not

919
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,360
into sport

920
00:31:55,519 --> 00:31:59,519
this is an amazing place to learn

921
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,080
teamwork skills to learn communication

922
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:04,799
skills to learn you know how to to work

923
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,039
together to achieve something yeah and

924
00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:09,200
actually the the achievement in itself

925
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:10,720
kind of like that you know killing the

926
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,960
big bad or

927
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,120
foiling the plot of the eel king or

928
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,880
whatever you know kind of solving the

929
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:21,679
problem or seeing whether the evil dm is

930
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,640
has come up with some clutter yeah to

931
00:32:21,679 --> 00:32:27,519
you know worked out what the dm is doing

932
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,279
yeah and foiling the evil dm

933
00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,720
but uh and and that sense of

934
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:32,720
accomplishment

935
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,200
where are they gonna get that i mean

936
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,679
if yeah and especially as a group

937
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,240
i mean if you do it online

938
00:32:37,679 --> 00:32:42,799
yes you do get some of that and yes

939
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,120
there is actually i think so so

940
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:47,440
some of the you know nowadays uh online

941
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,760
gaming i think that you can have really

942
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,919
really good teamwork in terms of very

943
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,000
militaristic style teamwork where you're

944
00:32:51,919 --> 00:32:56,720
you're fulfilling a role

945
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,000
but where you're then kind of i'm

946
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,679
we're done just drag it's a different

947
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,919
type of teamwork it's where you sit down

948
00:32:59,679 --> 00:33:04,559
and you discuss things and you figure

949
00:33:01,919 --> 00:33:06,159
out how to go forward together and you

950
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:07,200
innovate together

951
00:33:06,159 --> 00:33:09,519
and

952
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,919
i find that you know that generally

953
00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:13,600
online gaming you are still there are

954
00:33:11,919 --> 00:33:15,039
still very much people are out for

955
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,000
themselves even though they're part of

956
00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:18,000
the team

957
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,640
you know they'll still yeah kind of rush

958
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,720
in for the the yeah the loot lust at the

959
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,240
end and try and grab grab the loot you

960
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,240
know because at the end of the day the

961
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,559
most important person is them

962
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,799
it doesn't happen in in dungeons dragons

963
00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:32,960
well not well it does to begin with yeah

964
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:34,720
so with my students yeah they were

965
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,080
arguing and jumping in and trying to

966
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,840
grab the best loot for themselves and

967
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,000
that i think is a very much video game

968
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:43,039
mentality yeah for sure but after a

969
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,360
little while they realize oh okay let's

970
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:47,200
kind of take the loot and share it and

971
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,440
see who this is best for

972
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,360
yeah because they learn to to be in a

973
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,440
team like that and communicate

974
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,760
yeah no i'm i mean again and it's this

975
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,360
is an ageless thing i hope i'm not like

976
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,720
digging on my players too much but in

977
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,320
terms of that isolationary worldview

978
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,000
there are still you know as i said 60

979
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,960
plus sessions in there are still

980
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,720
occasions where i can i can see that

981
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,159
coming out and in fact in fact it even

982
00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:11,919
led to one of the player character

983
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:14,079
deaths recently because they were just

984
00:34:11,919 --> 00:34:16,720
so like not really

985
00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:18,320
having the wider picture right yeah kind

986
00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:20,000
of the way i the way i'd structured it

987
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,639
they they dropped down and these escape

988
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:25,359
pods it's all very like goofy sci-fi

989
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:27,679
fantasy still high magic

990
00:34:25,359 --> 00:34:29,280
and there was two per escape pod three

991
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,119
escape pods but they obviously they

992
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,839
dropped separate so basically they were

993
00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:35,760
in pairs separated by quite difficult

994
00:34:33,839 --> 00:34:37,599
terrain and each of these pads had a

995
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,480
number of enemies to fight

996
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:40,560
and

997
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,679
the pair in the middle were getting

998
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,000
destroyed

999
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,359
for various reasons and

1000
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,639
so not only was there not really

1001
00:34:45,359 --> 00:34:48,079
communication or teamwork between that

1002
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:50,320
pair in the middle they were very much

1003
00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:52,720
like it's me against the world and it's

1004
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,839
also him against the world despite us

1005
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:57,440
being ostensibly a team

1006
00:34:55,839 --> 00:34:59,119
uh so not only was there not that there

1007
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,880
was also not a communication between the

1008
00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:02,960
other groups so it wasn't until that guy

1009
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,400
had been dead for like two rounds

1010
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,520
the other players eventually come over

1011
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,720
and be like oh where's bob

1012
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,040
uh

1013
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:13,200
yeah he kind of died like

1014
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,200
you know like 30 seconds ago and then

1015
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,359
the other characters were like

1016
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,079
what what the hell man

1017
00:35:17,359 --> 00:35:21,599
why why did no one tell us or scream or

1018
00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:23,520
shout and it's like well

1019
00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:25,520
you know you didn't check in on them so

1020
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,599
they're like to make everybody feel

1021
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,480
better that stuff is still still happens

1022
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:32,720
but that was very much a learning

1023
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,040
opportunity yeah for them to be like oh

1024
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:37,040
okay we could have potentially mitigated

1025
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,040
that a little bit with a lit just a

1026
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,880
modicum of communication between us

1027
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,560
would have potentially saved that

1028
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,160
character's life yeah and they'll learn

1029
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,320
that for next time they'll learn that

1030
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,160
they'll they'll remember it i mean this

1031
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,520
is one of the things

1032
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,119
i i used to uh do duke of edinburgh

1033
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,839
expeditions oh yeah i don't know whether

1034
00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:57,760
you know that i'm silver silver dv so

1035
00:35:55,839 --> 00:35:59,599
yeah that's pretty that's actually you

1036
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,920
know that is actually impressive doing a

1037
00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:03,520
yeah silver bronze is a little bit easy

1038
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,599
silver is actually impressive if you've

1039
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,760
got silver that's good if you've got

1040
00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:09,760
gold then i am actually genuinely

1041
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,640
impressed because so i was taking these

1042
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,160
these yeah inner city london kids yeah i

1043
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,079
mean yes they're from fairly wealthy

1044
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,640
backgrounds but we're taking them out to

1045
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:20,880
the countryside and they had to kind of

1046
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,800
walk for three days and camp for two

1047
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,760
nights and carry everything that they

1048
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,560
they had

1049
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:29,680
and i think i can't remember which um i

1050
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:32,320
think was prince andrew who had gone uh

1051
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,720
through the military or

1052
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,400
it might have been him he said the great

1053
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:38,960
thing about duke of edinburgh is that

1054
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,720
there is still the very real possibility

1055
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,440
that somebody could die

1056
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:45,359
which is um which is i mean something

1057
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,560
you would never want to be with students

1058
00:36:45,359 --> 00:36:50,400
etc with children etc but

1059
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,240
there's a lot of complaint in in

1060
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,240
education that we've made it too safe

1061
00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:55,040
and and certainly in the last 10 years

1062
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:57,200
they've

1063
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,920
yeah i mean it's not it's not a new

1064
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:03,520
concept but uh the buzzword in the last

1065
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:05,200
you know 10 15 years has been resilience

1066
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,400
and especially obviously especially

1067
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,480
during this

1068
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,760
you know this last two yeah this last

1069
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,839
year and a half and yes during the

1070
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:15,200
pandoric resilience is so important and

1071
00:37:13,839 --> 00:37:18,640
as you said

1072
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,640
in dnd they can die you know and i i i

1073
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,880
cringe at people dm's who said i would

1074
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,520
never kill my d yeah or yeah kind of

1075
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,839
you know this you know sometimes i i

1076
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:30,160
post stuff online about how i can

1077
00:37:27,839 --> 00:37:32,079
sometimes make it more difficult for my

1078
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,440
my players and they you know you will

1079
00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:35,599
occasionally get the odd person who'll

1080
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,280
say why would you do that it's supposed

1081
00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:39,359
to be fun well

1082
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,359
it is fun because it's a challenge you

1083
00:37:39,359 --> 00:37:43,599
know that very real possibility of it's

1084
00:37:41,359 --> 00:37:46,240
actually exciting when you get the very

1085
00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:48,560
yeah you've got maybe half the party who

1086
00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:50,800
are kind of you know are down and you've

1087
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,119
got that last foe and you're trying to

1088
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,400
try something yeah yeah not to have a

1089
00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:56,240
tpk

1090
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,440
and that's exciting yeah

1091
00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:02,240
and the real very real chance of failure

1092
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:04,960
the very real chance of someone dying

1093
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:07,520
is uh is something that you know that is

1094
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,520
it's not only exciting and fun but it's

1095
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,480
yeah it's a learning process as well

1096
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,000
yeah i think i think that's another

1097
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,160
reason why to flip on and tell a little

1098
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,400
bit that roguelike video games in a

1099
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,720
renaissance you know uh quite vogue

1100
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,240
right now because the whole process is

1101
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:22,000
like if you die you have to start back

1102
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:23,760
at the beginning again and i think

1103
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,760
people really enjoy that

1104
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,680
that risk you know it's not just like

1105
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,839
well if i die i reboot the game and i

1106
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:32,079
start 30 seconds down the corridor

1107
00:38:29,839 --> 00:38:33,839
because that even for me takes takes a

1108
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:35,680
little bit out of it but when you've

1109
00:38:33,839 --> 00:38:37,440
invested say like 20 minutes into a run

1110
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,599
or whatever and then you get back to

1111
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,960
square one it's there's there's there's

1112
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:42,160
the driver and they're super popular

1113
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,520
right now and i think one of the reasons

1114
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,400
is because of that

1115
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,720
the risk involved so yeah for sure for

1116
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,720
sure

1117
00:38:48,750 --> 00:38:52,059
[Music]

1118
00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:59,119
[Music]

1119
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,240
now you alluded to it earlier on

1120
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:04,480
actually when i gave that example of

1121
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:06,079
having that critical thinking because

1122
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,119
you know the critical thing is always

1123
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:11,440
you know seeing trying to determine

1124
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:13,280
the facts the you know the objectivity

1125
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,200
and trying to make sure you've taken out

1126
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,720
all kind of bias and subjectivity and

1127
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,880
seeing things for what they really are

1128
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:20,720
and and so on and so on an element of

1129
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,760
critical thinking i really

1130
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,200
think about it in the way of trying to

1131
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,000
see through conspiracy theories is a

1132
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,079
very

1133
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,720
easy way for me to

1134
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:30,640
to kind of understand it and that's why

1135
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,320
i brought up the like but why does the

1136
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,240
king want to carry out this quest but

1137
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,000
why you know what are they what do they

1138
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:38,320
stand to get from it because nothing's

1139
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,560
for free so what are they what why are

1140
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,640
they benefiting from it and

1141
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,680
nine times out of ten it will be

1142
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:49,040
a d d quest and it is it can be quite

1143
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:51,599
two-dimensional but sometimes it is

1144
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,520
nefarious to some extent

1145
00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:55,440
and i've got in my notes that it it can

1146
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,800
be a bad thing and you mentioned earlier

1147
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,400
on like

1148
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,880
sometimes the players would get into

1149
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,480
that mentality of the evil dm every

1150
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,280
every npc has got something up their

1151
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:07,839
sleeve and every npc has got some weird

1152
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,520
you know seven year plan to foil us and

1153
00:40:07,839 --> 00:40:12,319
i'm like now that that's just a small

1154
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,760
boy like he can't he can't he is seven

1155
00:40:12,319 --> 00:40:14,960
he hasn't got a seven year plan to kill

1156
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,720
you here

1157
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,040
because he himself is seven

1158
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:20,880
so there is those that like

1159
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,480
it can swing too much the other way and

1160
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,800
that very much happened with my guys

1161
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,040
after a couple of a couple of

1162
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,920
you know inclement individuals they've

1163
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,400
now

1164
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,640
they the pendulum swung very much in the

1165
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,520
mistrust direction

1166
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,960
and now certainly it is slowly starting

1167
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,880
to to come back in in the other

1168
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,000
direction but um

1169
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,920
i loved

1170
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,440
when you mentioned earlier on about

1171
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,359
learning each other and the dm and the

1172
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,920
other players as

1173
00:40:45,359 --> 00:40:50,240
people as well as their characters

1174
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,200
because they're such a huge amount of

1175
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:55,280
the game is trust and it's it's very

1176
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,040
simplistic for me to say trust each

1177
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,800
other because that means basically

1178
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,880
nothing um but

1179
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,440
but what i mean is that like as i said

1180
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,119
earlier on they trust me to have

1181
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,119
like an enjoyable journey for them

1182
00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:08,240
they're trusting me to have that payoff

1183
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:09,760
that they're willing to go on the

1184
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:11,520
journey and to spend another year

1185
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,960
playing because i know it'll be some

1186
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,920
crazy end goal that'll be super fun

1187
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,400
and

1188
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,240
likewise and this is something harder to

1189
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,680
builders between players and dms is

1190
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:23,440
trusting

1191
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:26,880
each other both

1192
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:29,680
the dm trusting the players not uh

1193
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:32,319
eventually not to just consider everyone

1194
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,920
some nefarious evil do it but likewise

1195
00:41:32,319 --> 00:41:36,079
that is it's a two-way street the

1196
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,520
players have to trust the dm to

1197
00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:39,119
not just

1198
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,800
the old granny who was selling them

1199
00:41:39,119 --> 00:41:43,119
apples last session is ah stabbed you

1200
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,760
all in the back like that is just

1201
00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:47,359
lame so the players have to trust the dm

1202
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,800
to not do that as well and when you when

1203
00:41:47,359 --> 00:41:52,480
you start to finally kind of build that

1204
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,240
trust in such a way where it all kind of

1205
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,240
meets in the middle and becomes this

1206
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,760
very

1207
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:58,640
self-sustaining machine of role play

1208
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,760
that is

1209
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,680
that is the

1210
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,760
the golden the objective that's the

1211
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,160
sweet spot yeah that's the bit but it's

1212
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,440
so hard to get to because people change

1213
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,119
over time let them what they're

1214
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,119
role-playing so trying to

1215
00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:13,520
keep this line

1216
00:42:11,119 --> 00:42:16,240
i mean i get asked about because i'm

1217
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,720
working with students how how do i if

1218
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:20,960
how do i encourage teamwork and and this

1219
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:23,599
is something that i actually yeah i've

1220
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,920
been yeah thinking a lot about because

1221
00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:28,880
obviously i'm talking about educational

1222
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,680
use of dungeons and dragons how do i uh

1223
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:35,359
specifically go about hitting certain

1224
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:38,000
yeah learning outcomes and i mean again

1225
00:42:35,359 --> 00:42:39,839
i wrote this about uh kind of making

1226
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,560
friends etc but i want to write another

1227
00:42:39,839 --> 00:42:45,440
article about teamwork i think the um

1228
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,560
i can't remember what it's called the uh

1229
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,280
the four

1230
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,040
uh elements of let me try and find out

1231
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,599
forming storms

1232
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:56,240
yeah it's called tuckman's team of group

1233
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:59,040
development models yeah forming storming

1234
00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:01,119
uh normalizing and performing yeah yeah

1235
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,200
and i and i say you know

1236
00:43:01,119 --> 00:43:05,520
i will often yeah especially when the

1237
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,760
the students are

1238
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,880
fighting which happens because they as i

1239
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,560
said they

1240
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,079
yeah especially they come from video

1241
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,160
game backgrounds where they will just

1242
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:16,000
run and grab the loot as quickly as

1243
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,240
possible and and some of them will

1244
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,240
actually be munchkins which is i think

1245
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:22,319
that step up from power gamer is where

1246
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:24,400
they'll they'll grab all the magic items

1247
00:43:22,319 --> 00:43:26,400
and even if it yeah it benefits them a

1248
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,240
tiny amount kind of

1249
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,839
and it might benefit their teammate a

1250
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,680
lot more they'll keep hold of it yeah

1251
00:43:29,839 --> 00:43:34,560
this is mine no this is mine because it

1252
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,400
yeah it gives me that because one hit

1253
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,960
once a year i'll do one point more

1254
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:41,440
damage and that's all that matters

1255
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,599
yeah so that's you know um but they'll

1256
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:46,240
argue and they'll kind of they'll fight

1257
00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:47,680
and and actually i'll i'll sit back you

1258
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:50,720
know as long as it obviously doesn't

1259
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:52,240
come to blows or gets too serious

1260
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:54,079
i've got this image of you sitting at

1261
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:56,160
the table as the table is now just like

1262
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:57,680
brawling and like bottles are flying and

1263
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,839
you're just like no no this is team

1264
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,560
building

1265
00:43:59,839 --> 00:44:05,200
but it is i mean that's that's genuinely

1266
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,119
the the you know kind of the

1267
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,359
kind of the player who i remember

1268
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:12,240
specifically was like that

1269
00:44:09,359 --> 00:44:14,319
he realized that he upset other players

1270
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:16,640
and you know i think that's now you know

1271
00:44:14,319 --> 00:44:19,359
in his mind as he goes forward and plays

1272
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:22,079
that he should be maybe less like that

1273
00:44:19,359 --> 00:44:23,920
and hopefully in future that he will not

1274
00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:27,119
be like that at all and it kind of like

1275
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:29,760
be be a player who who shares and and

1276
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:31,920
sees those friendships as more important

1277
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,200
you know and i i think that's that's it

1278
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,880
yeah the

1279
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,359
the friends we made along the way yeah

1280
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,640
the kind of the the most important

1281
00:44:37,359 --> 00:44:40,400
lesson

1282
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,920
in some ways

1283
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,680
yeah well absolutely and that's why i

1284
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,359
love that you know me

1285
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,960
having more anecdotal evidence of my

1286
00:44:45,359 --> 00:44:49,760
adult players saying that so it you know

1287
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,359
is it does it is absolutely true they're

1288
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,319
super stoked to turn up every other week

1289
00:44:51,359 --> 00:44:54,480
to just

1290
00:44:52,319 --> 00:44:55,599
have the journey like where's the next

1291
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,920
stop on the line it's not our

1292
00:44:55,599 --> 00:45:00,160
destination but it's an interesting

1293
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:03,520
break

1294
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:05,440
to kind of labor a metaphor there but um

1295
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,359
i so

1296
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,480
i guess this is this is also this again

1297
00:45:07,359 --> 00:45:10,160
this is also going to be an ageless

1298
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,200
discussion i'm about to open up here but

1299
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,480
i

1300
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,319
because i want to talk about newer

1301
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,400
players coming in to the hobby and

1302
00:45:14,319 --> 00:45:17,839
obviously that's going to be more likely

1303
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,200
perhaps that's wrong but i would imagine

1304
00:45:17,839 --> 00:45:20,800
it more likely for younger players

1305
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,760
because i've had less time being alive

1306
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,359
to

1307
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,240
play the game

1308
00:45:23,359 --> 00:45:28,079
stands to reason in my head uh

1309
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,920
and i always so i when i started up my

1310
00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:32,160
game of six uh

1311
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,000
four of them at brand brands banking me

1312
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,160
completely new i don't know what it is

1313
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,440
sounds cool i googled it there's this

1314
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,440
thing called critical role that looked

1315
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,880
good oh god alarm bells flying but

1316
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,040
anyway that that was that was the level

1317
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,240
of their experience coming in

1318
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:48,480
and

1319
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:50,480
so i as a quote unquote experienced dm

1320
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:53,440
whether for whatever that means x years

1321
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,680
number of dm various different groups um

1322
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,359
i kind of want to treat the first

1323
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,280
chapter of the first arc almost as a

1324
00:45:57,359 --> 00:46:01,680
prologue almost as a

1325
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,680
very set piece elements

1326
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,119
to have those learning opportunities i

1327
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,560
call them so at the end of the session i

1328
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:08,640
can be like

1329
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,560
what i said so patronizing because again

1330
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,119
20 people like my seniors as well but

1331
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,920
being like what did you learn from that

1332
00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:18,640
and it's it's stuff like hey you don't

1333
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,720
have to fight everybody like you don't

1334
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,720
that that might not have necessarily

1335
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,800
turned into a combat or maybe an npc you

1336
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:26,240
know tagalong steps in and says whoa

1337
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,079
whoa guys

1338
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:29,920
what about we come to a compromise and

1339
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:30,800
then the players go oh

1340
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,800
can you

1341
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,440
demo can you do that and i'm like

1342
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,359
well it's happening right now so

1343
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,359
of course there was there was this

1344
00:46:37,359 --> 00:46:41,440
wonderful article i read i think it was

1345
00:46:39,359 --> 00:46:44,079
about a year ago um

1346
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,160
and it wasn't i mean the article

1347
00:46:44,079 --> 00:46:49,280
actually didn't say much at all um the

1348
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:52,240
article was about a mom yeah um who her

1349
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:54,640
child was playing dnd and what a great

1350
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:56,960
thing it was to do during the pandemic

1351
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,640
and then she was bonding with her son by

1352
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,480
i think they got the hero's facebook and

1353
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,480
then oh yeah she was cooking through

1354
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,760
some of that but there was a wonderful

1355
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:08,160
line in the middle of that saying that

1356
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,480
my son had actually started the game

1357
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:13,520
with our family and

1358
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:16,319
he was teaching us that fighting wasn't

1359
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:18,960
the only answer so i think that's such a

1360
00:47:16,319 --> 00:47:21,599
great thing yeah this this is a kind of

1361
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:24,880
like it must be a teenage boy teaching

1362
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:27,359
adults yeah his family that

1363
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,640
fighting is not the oh god

1364
00:47:27,359 --> 00:47:30,559
you don't have to kill everyone you meet

1365
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,599
yeah

1366
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:33,359
so

1367
00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:35,440
yeah i think that's so important and i

1368
00:47:33,359 --> 00:47:37,680
think that's increasing you know

1369
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,240
especially with the you know with the

1370
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:42,800
the streamers now because role-playing

1371
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:44,960
is so much more of an a important aspect

1372
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,280
of the game than it used to be so i

1373
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,920
think yeah as i said you know when when

1374
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:52,240
i started yeah it was all about combat

1375
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,280
it was all about the strategy um i mean

1376
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:57,680
not not yeah 100 i you know one of the

1377
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,599
things i've always loved about dnd is

1378
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,240
is the options

1379
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:04,720
to negotiate your way around something

1380
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:07,839
or to try and trick the monster or doing

1381
00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:11,280
something like that um actually one of

1382
00:48:07,839 --> 00:48:13,839
the the the saddest things about

1383
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,160
hobbit the the three movies that that

1384
00:48:13,839 --> 00:48:18,319
should have been one movie yeah the

1385
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,480
whole thing was a travesty i'm sorry um

1386
00:48:18,319 --> 00:48:20,480
yeah

1387
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,040
we'll pad this episode with 50 minutes

1388
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,319
of you ranting about the hobby if you

1389
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,800
want

1390
00:48:26,319 --> 00:48:30,400
i could i could do and about how

1391
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,160
terrible it is but one of the saddest

1392
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,640
things i think in

1393
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,760
the the move from the book to the film

1394
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,640
is

1395
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,559
when bilbo meets the trolls and gets

1396
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,400
captured by the trolls

1397
00:48:40,559 --> 00:48:45,040
now in the film

1398
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,839
the dwarves and gandalf attack the

1399
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,760
trolls and it's a fight

1400
00:48:47,839 --> 00:48:51,680
in the book

1401
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,520
actually gandalf comes and starts

1402
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,680
talking to the trolls and because he's

1403
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,680
talking to them so much you know and i

1404
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,119
i've read the book years or years ago so

1405
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,720
i can't remember it very well but i

1406
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:02,800
remember that actually he talks to the

1407
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:04,559
trolls until it's morning and trolls in

1408
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,160
the you know when they had daylight

1409
00:49:04,559 --> 00:49:06,960
turned to stone

1410
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,520
so

1411
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,200
it's not about combat it's about gandalf

1412
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,880
going and just entertaining i can just

1413
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,480
imagine that yeah and again off going

1414
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,680
and telling them stories and making them

1415
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,520
laugh and just

1416
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:19,200
enjoying his company

1417
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,440
you know and and these fascinating

1418
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,760
stories that this wizard is telling

1419
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,280
and then not realizing the time of day

1420
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,520
it is you know

1421
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,839
and again that's what that's a wonderful

1422
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,480
thing kind of that i think it's a shame

1423
00:49:29,839 --> 00:49:34,400
it's not in the film yeah yeah

1424
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,000
so i i think another thing i wanted to

1425
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,079
add is once once

1426
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,599
the players have learned

1427
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:41,440
that and they've kind of stepped away

1428
00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:43,520
from their video game tropes and you

1429
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,359
know kill seven wolves or whatever and

1430
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,880
you know this that and the other and and

1431
00:49:45,359 --> 00:49:48,480
you know problem-solving skills like if

1432
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,000
it is to kill seven moves like perhaps

1433
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,680
they could just go and buy the meat that

1434
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,319
the person wants and say they've done it

1435
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:56,319
or you know 101 other solutions but

1436
00:49:54,319 --> 00:49:58,880
what i'm getting at is then later on

1437
00:49:56,319 --> 00:50:00,480
down the line when you you can kind of

1438
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,960
kind of turn that all that trope on its

1439
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,119
head so when you bring in creatures as

1440
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:08,559
i'm doing now that are like mindless

1441
00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:10,880
aberrations that just just only exist

1442
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:12,960
to fight and to consume

1443
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,079
it means a little bit more because the

1444
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,720
players

1445
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:18,640
and their characters are like oh we

1446
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:20,079
this is a rare occurrence where we can't

1447
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,119
we're actually our hands are being

1448
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:22,800
forced

1449
00:50:21,119 --> 00:50:24,720
we can't talk our way we can't there's

1450
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,240
no we can't even trick these creatures

1451
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:28,000
because they're just abominations you

1452
00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:30,079
know horrible creatures that don't have

1453
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,839
a mind that just exist to destroy and

1454
00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:33,920
consume there's no there's no way we can

1455
00:50:31,839 --> 00:50:36,400
get around this or at least very few

1456
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:38,480
ways we could get around this versus

1457
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,640
anything else it kind of brings

1458
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,079
the importance of those encounters up a

1459
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,040
little bit if every encounter happened

1460
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:44,400
to that point it's been fight fight

1461
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,160
fight fight fight this is just another

1462
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,079
one we fight but if you've had the

1463
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,400
mixture of like we've bribed the guards

1464
00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:53,119
we've we've talked to the trolls until

1465
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,200
morning we've only cut off you know

1466
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:56,559
their lapels so we pretend we've killed

1467
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,839
these people to the person that wants

1468
00:50:56,559 --> 00:50:58,960
the bounty

1469
00:50:57,839 --> 00:51:01,280
and then you get to appointments like

1470
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:04,160
nope we can't talk to them we can't

1471
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:06,319
bribe them we can't placate them we just

1472
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,920
these like it's just a

1473
00:51:06,319 --> 00:51:09,280
disgusting horrible task that we're

1474
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,520
forced to do

1475
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,680
it almost brings up what would otherwise

1476
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,520
be a just a routine combat to another

1477
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,760
layer of like i've got a mess i've got

1478
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:20,160
dirty my hands here and

1479
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,240
it's disgusting and i i think that is an

1480
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:25,040
another benefit there of that training

1481
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:28,079
cycle yeah i think that now we are

1482
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:30,160
moving more towards that um

1483
00:51:28,079 --> 00:51:32,079
especially i think as a

1484
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,160
as a culture we've become a little bit

1485
00:51:32,079 --> 00:51:37,119
more aware of

1486
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:39,599
the horrors of war and combat etc and

1487
00:51:37,119 --> 00:51:41,920
and you know we see on the tv and and it

1488
00:51:39,599 --> 00:51:43,040
becomes more i hope it kind of strikes

1489
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,920
home to us

1490
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:48,240
and the increase now of the game uh

1491
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,559
using kind of um

1492
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:52,559
players wanting to role play players

1493
00:51:50,559 --> 00:51:53,520
wanting to think of clever ways out i i

1494
00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:55,280
think that's

1495
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,960
that's an important evolution of the

1496
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,440
game i think that's yeah

1497
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,359
that's really good in that sense

1498
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,280
but then realizing that sometimes

1499
00:52:01,359 --> 00:52:05,359
there's no choice you know i think that

1500
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,440
then making that decision and

1501
00:52:05,359 --> 00:52:09,599
and using the tools that they have

1502
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:12,240
i i have really been kind of uh

1503
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:14,880
interested in seeing uh how role-playing

1504
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:17,680
games are moving more towards that

1505
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:20,000
kind of role-playing aspect and and

1506
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,640
it's difficult because the uh

1507
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:25,520
how do you put mechanics on

1508
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:27,839
role-playing or social skills you don't

1509
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:30,160
want to you know you don't want to say i

1510
00:52:27,839 --> 00:52:32,400
seduce the guard

1511
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,960
roller d20 yeah you're basically saying

1512
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:38,240
like you acted as a human being poorly

1513
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:40,000
you know in a way which is weird to hear

1514
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:43,200
yeah

1515
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:46,160
so uh yeah i mean it's it's it's good to

1516
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:48,960
see more of those uh happening and as i

1517
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:51,680
said i i'm i'm going to be investigating

1518
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,920
that more to certain yeah certainly kind

1519
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:56,319
of the the the students who are

1520
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,720
attracted to dungeons and dragons or

1521
00:52:56,319 --> 00:53:01,760
role-playing games are the the nerdy

1522
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:03,760
ones and so social skills i i know quite

1523
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,760
a few um

1524
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:09,040
yeah a lot of what i see online in terms

1525
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:11,040
of using uh practical uh use of role

1526
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,480
playing games is uh to teach those

1527
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:15,520
social skills

1528
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:17,839
um as i was saying before but um

1529
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,800
actually trying to write

1530
00:53:17,839 --> 00:53:23,200
scenarios and write adventures where

1531
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,800
they have to employ those things

1532
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,960
is much more interesting i think yeah

1533
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,800
that's that's going to be yeah and

1534
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,640
hit those learning outcomes from from a

1535
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,559
social skills aspect that's that's quite

1536
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,480
tough yeah no i i imagine like

1537
00:53:32,559 --> 00:53:37,200
architecting those in a way that are you

1538
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:39,839
know effective and meaningful is well

1539
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:42,480
way outside of my area of uh

1540
00:53:39,839 --> 00:53:43,920
of expertise um so yeah i can imagine

1541
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,680
that's where the you know the gold mine

1542
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,440
is of of those

1543
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,520
social encounters and i i mean i fit a

1544
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,800
stereotype for sure i certainly when i

1545
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:53,280
was younger i don't like sports still

1546
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,880
don't like sports sports for chumps um

1547
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:57,359
but also uh

1548
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,720
being nerdy uh but hey look at me now

1549
00:53:57,359 --> 00:54:00,559
i'm like

1550
00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:03,040
handsome and charming modest so i guess

1551
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:04,640
it's uh you know obviously

1552
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,240
the proof is in the pudding

1553
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,680
um is that is there anything you wanted

1554
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:08,800
to talk about that we we haven't quite

1555
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,839
covered yet

1556
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:13,599
um i would say that

1557
00:54:11,839 --> 00:54:14,480
something i want to write about as well

1558
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:15,760
is

1559
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,280
i think that

1560
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,359
role-playing games

1561
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,359
i know that parents can be incredibly

1562
00:54:19,359 --> 00:54:23,440
busy but i think that

1563
00:54:21,359 --> 00:54:25,520
it is a yeah uh

1564
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:28,000
one of the best things that parents can

1565
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:30,079
do with their children obviously not

1566
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:32,640
force them don't force them to do it but

1567
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:34,079
uh if you certainly if you enjoy it then

1568
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,079
you know actually i wrote this kind of

1569
00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:38,160
just recently don't force your children

1570
00:54:36,079 --> 00:54:39,520
to do it play with your friends let your

1571
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,200
children watch when you're playing with

1572
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,119
their children they're naturally curious

1573
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,640
they'll want to play with you

1574
00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:47,280
but one of the best things that parents

1575
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:50,960
can be doing with their children is

1576
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:53,440
playing role-playing games because

1577
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:56,640
i i remember my parents certainly my mom

1578
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:59,119
was incredibly worried about one or two

1579
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:01,119
friends i made as being bad influences i

1580
00:54:59,119 --> 00:55:02,319
mean this is normal chinese parents to

1581
00:55:01,119 --> 00:55:04,319
be honest with you in fact this is

1582
00:55:02,319 --> 00:55:06,480
normal any parents kind of like that

1583
00:55:04,319 --> 00:55:07,760
person is a bad influence for you yeah

1584
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,000
um

1585
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,760
and you know and i see it in the yeah

1586
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,760
kind of the boarding house where the the

1587
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,960
yeah kind of i mean some of the the boys

1588
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,119
in the boarding house are you know

1589
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:20,640
incredibly yeah well-mannered and

1590
00:55:17,119 --> 00:55:24,319
well-behaved and you know kind of um but

1591
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:28,160
actually i had this yeah uh one boy who

1592
00:55:24,319 --> 00:55:31,040
was quite a devout muslim boy and

1593
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,799
so one of the students decided dm and we

1594
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,799
were heading through this little village

1595
00:55:32,799 --> 00:55:36,400
you know listeners will probably know

1596
00:55:34,799 --> 00:55:38,480
you know what uh adventure i'm talking

1597
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:41,359
about but uh we are trying to avoid

1598
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:44,480
these cultists uh and these i think the

1599
00:55:41,359 --> 00:55:46,240
kobolds this occult the dragon

1600
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,400
and we have these villagers with us and

1601
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:50,799
we're trying to get to the central keep

1602
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:53,040
and the the village was yeah the town

1603
00:55:50,799 --> 00:55:54,559
was on fire and these houses weren't dry

1604
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,680
and we were creeping from house to house

1605
00:55:54,559 --> 00:56:00,799
to try and you know avoid the patrols of

1606
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:03,440
uh these cultists anyway one of the this

1607
00:56:00,799 --> 00:56:06,240
this boy who is a really you know nice

1608
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:08,160
sweet boy uh he said

1609
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:10,880
i'm gonna loot the house

1610
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:12,400
and i was playing as a paladin and i was

1611
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,440
kind of like i didn't want to kind of

1612
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,599
put my

1613
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,839
i don't know then i started roleplaying

1614
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:21,040
it's just like what are you doing the

1615
00:56:17,839 --> 00:56:22,799
villagers are right there yeah yeah

1616
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,799
what are they gonna do if we're looting

1617
00:56:22,799 --> 00:56:26,160
their house but he his mind was but it's

1618
00:56:24,799 --> 00:56:28,400
burning down anyway it's gonna get

1619
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,640
destroyed anyway and he didn't see that

1620
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:33,119
connects there

1621
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:35,040
and kind of it took quite a

1622
00:56:33,119 --> 00:56:36,640
while for me to argue and convince him

1623
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,480
that this was a bad thing to do that

1624
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,400
they yeah either they would run away

1625
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,680
from us because we're just looters or

1626
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,119
they would attack us because we're

1627
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,680
looting their houses

1628
00:56:43,119 --> 00:56:47,839
you know for him it was because he was

1629
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,599
very much in a video game mentality it's

1630
00:56:47,839 --> 00:56:51,440
just like stuff is there i'm gonna loot

1631
00:56:49,599 --> 00:56:53,760
him he's gonna destroy anyway so i'm

1632
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,359
gonna loot it but again in reality i'm

1633
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,960
sure he would never do that because he's

1634
00:56:55,359 --> 00:56:58,960
such a sweet boy

1635
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:01,599
but it's it's weird because

1636
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:04,559
it then opens up those opportunities

1637
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:06,240
kind of for parents to be talking to

1638
00:57:04,559 --> 00:57:07,280
their their children

1639
00:57:06,240 --> 00:57:09,839
about

1640
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:12,240
morality about ethics about kind of the

1641
00:57:09,839 --> 00:57:14,480
way they go about things about the life

1642
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:16,960
decisions they make it'll open up these

1643
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:19,680
but also they'll get to know their that

1644
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,599
yeah when you play with somebody

1645
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,799
and i i think you find this i'm sure you

1646
00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:25,599
find this with your

1647
00:57:22,799 --> 00:57:28,000
players you know them so much more

1648
00:57:25,599 --> 00:57:30,720
deeply in terms of their the choices

1649
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,640
they make the kind of the moral choices

1650
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,720
especially and yes sometimes they're

1651
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:37,520
role-playing i've got this this one

1652
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:39,760
player who was in my my game who

1653
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,280
kind of he really would embody body the

1654
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,520
character and do things that were very

1655
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,680
out of character of him which i i found

1656
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,200
amazing uh and that's as

1657
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:49,599
amazing as a player

1658
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:51,839
but otherwise generally you learn a lot

1659
00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:53,359
about your your players just the way

1660
00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:56,160
they interact with each other the way

1661
00:57:53,359 --> 00:57:57,839
you can yeah as you said rely on them or

1662
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:00,480
not rely on them

1663
00:57:57,839 --> 00:58:03,839
but uh yeah imagine now being a kind of

1664
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,799
like a parent and you know seeing

1665
00:58:03,839 --> 00:58:06,799
actually

1666
00:58:04,799 --> 00:58:09,440
this is something that parents

1667
00:58:06,799 --> 00:58:11,119
can only see just generally

1668
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,799
but when they play role-playing games

1669
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:14,480
with their children they'll see so much

1670
00:58:12,799 --> 00:58:16,640
more deeply and they'll open up those

1671
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:18,720
avenues for conversation about

1672
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,119
those things and i i think that's that's

1673
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,960
incredibly important and powerful

1674
00:58:21,119 --> 00:58:25,040
yeah thank you so much and we've put a

1675
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,960
nice bookend there because we've talked

1676
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,760
and started a lot about

1677
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,520
you know

1678
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,280
it being an educational vehicle for the

1679
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,799
players and and the you know the

1680
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,839
students and whatnot and we've ended

1681
00:58:32,799 --> 00:58:36,400
with

1682
00:58:33,839 --> 00:58:37,839
how the dm can learn something about

1683
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,240
other people and stuff so it's a very

1684
00:58:37,839 --> 00:58:42,559
nice oh yeah very very wholesome

1685
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,200
uh closed loop so thank you very much

1686
00:58:42,559 --> 00:58:47,040
for this for this chat today sam well

1687
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:49,040
thank you again for having me it's uh

1688
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,960
it's been great uh is there anything you

1689
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:54,319
would like to promote

1690
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:55,920
so i am actually i have a podcast that

1691
00:58:54,319 --> 00:58:58,319
i'm going to launch in the next couple

1692
00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:00,319
of weeks it is just a few interviews

1693
00:58:58,319 --> 00:59:03,040
with uh educators

1694
00:59:00,319 --> 00:59:05,520
other than that i you can find me online

1695
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:07,280
on facebook and twitter mainly as the

1696
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:09,119
educational dm

1697
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,960
and i mean it's

1698
00:59:09,119 --> 00:59:13,040
yeah it's a lot of dm stuff but it's a

1699
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:15,280
lot yeah it's a lot of educational stuff

1700
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,480
as well so um

1701
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:19,520
that is something you might want to go

1702
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:22,559
and have a look at my blog articles

1703
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:23,920
which are mostly about education and how

1704
00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:27,040
dnd

1705
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:29,520
either can be used for education or

1706
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:32,079
is educational is is on

1707
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:34,240
dumpsterventures.com

1708
00:59:32,079 --> 00:59:36,079
so just search that out dump stat

1709
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,079
adventures and you'll come up with a

1710
00:59:36,079 --> 00:59:40,160
blog and you know i write an article

1711
00:59:38,079 --> 00:59:41,359
maybe once every couple of months when i

1712
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,040
get the time

1713
00:59:41,359 --> 00:59:44,880
but yeah that's uh

1714
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,960
yeah i've got so much to say but just

1715
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,839
not enough time to say it yeah that's

1716
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:51,040
always always the way yeah yeah i mean

1717
00:59:49,839 --> 00:59:54,000
most of what you want to say is you know

1718
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,960
ragging on the hobbit so yeah

1719
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:58,000
yes

1720
00:59:54,960 --> 01:00:01,040
oh what a terrible phil

1721
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,040
sorry i don't mean to trigger

1722
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,160
uh by the time this episode comes out i

1723
01:00:06,559 --> 01:00:10,880
imagine your podcast is probably full

1724
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:12,400
steam ahead anyway so as usual we'll put

1725
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,640
all the links in the description please

1726
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:18,160
do check it out it's been such a such a

1727
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:20,640
fun and an interesting and dare i say

1728
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:22,559
educational chat today so yeah all

1729
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,640
that's left for me to say is again

1730
01:00:22,559 --> 01:00:27,040
thank you once more sam it's been it's

1731
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:29,119
been super fun and super interesting so

1732
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:31,440
yep thank you thanks again well sorry

1733
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:33,280
again thank you it's uh it has been fun

1734
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,520
it's it's good to to talk about these

1735
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,119
things i just yeah in some ways i can't

1736
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,799
stop talking about these things

1737
01:00:37,119 --> 01:00:42,319
um and actually i'm going to be back in

1738
01:00:38,799 --> 01:00:44,559
the uk in the you know uh next year from

1739
01:00:42,319 --> 01:00:45,920
september so who knows i might pop down

1740
01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:48,319
to southampton

1741
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:50,880
sunny southampton that's uh amazing

1742
01:00:48,319 --> 01:00:54,720
let's get a drink so yeah yeah yeah for

1743
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:57,920
sure uh some some health beer maybe

1744
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:59,760
yes exactly yeah somehow oh beer to me

1745
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,839
it's health beer oh god that sounds bad

1746
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:04,000
anyway moving up there

1747
01:01:01,839 --> 01:01:06,960
thank you again thank you everybody for

1748
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:09,119
listening at home please check out all

1749
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,640
the sam's stuff and also please check

1750
01:01:09,119 --> 01:01:12,400
out all of my stuff drop a review if

1751
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,880
you've enjoyed today's episode

1752
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:17,839
otherwise thank you all for listening

1753
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,839
and good night

1754
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,920
and now it's time for the patreon shout

1755
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:24,480
outs once again thank you to matt street

1756
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:26,480
at mpstreet88 on twitter for supporting

1757
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:28,400
the show if you need support running

1758
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,640
your personal or business schedule head

1759
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,839
to

1760
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,520
virtualtimehustle.com or on instagram to

1761
01:01:31,839 --> 01:01:35,680
make that difference between should do

1762
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,520
and done boss it better with support

1763
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,839
from cat who will help you get back that

1764
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,280
essential time you've been searching for

1765
01:01:39,839 --> 01:01:43,119
if you would like to support what we do

1766
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,920
and get four shout outs a month head

1767
01:01:43,119 --> 01:01:47,440
over to patreon.com thinking critically

1768
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:50,079
or you can just buy me a coffee at

1769
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,680
kofi.com thinking critically

1770
01:01:50,079 --> 01:01:53,920
and because it's christmas eve i wanted

1771
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,359
to wish you all a very merry christmas

1772
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,760
no matter where you are what you're

1773
01:01:55,359 --> 01:02:00,400
doing i hope you have a very lovely time

1774
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,920
celebrating with those closest to you

1775
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,440
once again just you listening to the

1776
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,039
show is a good enough christmas present

1777
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,440
for me so

1778
01:02:05,039 --> 01:02:09,920
however saying that you can now leave

1779
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,599
five star well any ratings but you know

1780
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:13,680
five star would be nice

1781
01:02:11,599 --> 01:02:15,200
directly on the spotify app so if you

1782
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,680
really wanted to give me a lovely

1783
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:20,480
christmas present you could go and drop

1784
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:23,200
me a nice little uh five star rating on

1785
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:24,079
spotify or whatever rating you think is

1786
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:27,440
fit

1787
01:02:24,079 --> 01:02:30,000
and do keep your ears open for the next

1788
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,160
episode which is dropping on

1789
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,839
new year's eve this year

1790
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:36,240
uh that is the one to take us out of

1791
01:02:33,839 --> 01:02:40,760
2021 so look forward to that one guys

1792
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:40,760
and i will see you then goodbye

1793
01:02:40,940 --> 01:02:52,889
[Applause]

1794
01:02:48,850 --> 01:02:52,889
[Music]

1795
01:02:55,130 --> 01:03:04,659
[Music]